Split from Scaleless BP - Feeding Live Debate

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

about rat bites:

rats can easily bite through wood or bone. who in their right mind can believe that the soft scales of a BP protect against a rat bite?

the nastiest possible injuries are when a rat manages to damage the jaw or skull of the snake. Do you think this will change without the "protection" of scales, really?

I would like to point out that there are no issues with scaleles corn snakes and scaleless texas rat snakes. Scaleless beardeds are problematic, but i say thats apples to oranges, bearded dragons with scales have quite extreme scales, also they have legs.

i indeed do believe that if the belly scales and heat pits are fine, they will be just as perfect as scaleless texas rats and scaleless corns. no diference in husbandry. We will see.

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Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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That's not a fair statement.

Some snakes have to eat live since they won't take f/t... I'd rather feed my snakes live prey, under close observation, than let my snake starve.

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Originally Posted by kat_black181

That's not a fair statement.

Some snakes have to eat live since they won't take f/t... I'd rather feed my snakes live prey, under close observation, than let my snake starve.

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A snake will eventually get hungry enough and take f/t. If not...
Freshly killed √

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

A snake will eventually get hungry enough and take f/t. If not...
Freshly killed √

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And if it doesn't, then what?

There's nothing wrong with feeding live if you are responsible about it. It's the people that don't watch or get sidetracked that have issues.

I've fed hundreds of live rodents and yet to have an injury occur. I always watch and keep a set of tongs ready to shove in a rodents mouth if the snake strikes wrong.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

A snake will eventually get hungry enough and take f/t. If not...
Freshly killed √

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You can't use those kinds of absolutes though, especially with animals. If an animal can eat f/t, then by all means- yes. F/t is the way to go. If it won't switch then it gets tricky.
For example, my first foray into snakes was a KSB. I got her in october and she refused f/t until december. Then she refused food until April when I finally gave her a live fuzzy. I tried EVERYTHING I could think off. Braining, chicken broth, pre-killed, in the tank, out of the tank, lengthening weeks between attempts ... nothing worked. Nothing. In that case, yes, I gave her a live fuzzy. My hope was that she would get on a schedule of eating live and once it was consistent, I would try again with f/t- unfortunately she got out and passed away before I could try that.

I don't like feeding live, and if I don't have to I won't- Tali is getting fat and happy on f/t and I'm fine with that. But if I had a snake who snubbed everything I could think of, I would feed live and I'm not going to judge another keeper for their choice, especially with hard eaters- there is a point where it's more important that the animal is eating then if it's on the diet you want.

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Originally Posted by sunshinenorcas

You can't use those kinds of absolutes though, especially with animals. If an animal can eat f/t, then by all means- yes. F/t is the way to go. If it won't switch then it gets tricky.
For example, my first foray into snakes was a KSB. I got her in october and she refused f/t until december. Then she refused food until April when I finally gave her a live fuzzy. I tried EVERYTHING I could think off. Braining, chicken broth, pre-killed, in the tank, out of the tank, lengthening weeks between attempts ... nothing worked. Nothing. In that case, yes, I gave her a live fuzzy. My hope was that she would get on a schedule of eating live and once it was consistent, I would try again with f/t- unfortunately she got out and passed away before I could try that.

I don't like feeding live, and if I don't have to I won't- Tali is getting fat and happy on f/t and I'm fine with that. But if I had a snake who snubbed everything I could think of, I would feed live and I'm not going to judge another keeper for their choice, especially with hard eaters- there is a point where it's more important that the animal is eating then if it's on the diet you want.

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But a snake will see no difference between a freshly killed (and I mean like... Cervical dislocation in front of the cage, and then popping that sucker in their cage immediately after) and a live rat.

Uh, mine did. She didn't eat or strike at it, or even acknowledge it was there. And I pretty much killed it and dropped it in.

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Originally Posted by sunshinenorcas

Uh, mine did. She didn't eat or strike at it, or even acknowledge it was there. And I pretty much killed it and dropped it in.

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B.O.S is a clueless newb. I'd take what he says with a grain of salt...

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Originally Posted by sho220

B.O.S is a clueless newb. I'd take what he says with a grain of salt...

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I wish I could click the thanks button more than once. I guess he is saying that for millions of years snakes have been eating wrong.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

A snake will eventually get hungry enough and take f/t. If not...
Freshly killed √

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Not true. And I'd NEVER be willing to find out

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

A snake will eventually get hungry enough and take f/t. If not...
Freshly killed √

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Not all of them will.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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I guess I'm stupid then. That's all I feed. 20k live feedings and counting.

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Originally Posted by interloc

I wish I could click the thanks button more than once. I guess he is saying that for millions of years snakes have been eating wrong.

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I have a feeling he's never heard the old saying "You learn more from listening than talking". :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I have a feeling he's never heard the old saying "You learn more from listening than talking". :rolleyes:

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Then he should be forced to wear a disclaimer around the site.

I think the main reason this gets under my skin is that I think about someone totally new to the hobby, who comes here to read and soak up useful information, reading his posts and getting them confused with ACTUAL. EXPERIENCE, when in reality, he's pulling things out of left field. It's a bit unnerving to see someone with such little experience to basically already regard themselves as the all-knowing expert because they've had a couple snakes in a sock drawer for a few months.

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Originally Posted by kat_black181

Then he should be forced to wear a disclaimer around the site.

I think the main reason this gets under my skin is that I think about someone totally new to the hobby, who comes here to read and soak up useful information, reading his posts and getting them confused with ACTUAL. EXPERIENCE, when in reality, he's pulling things out of left field. It's a bit unnerving to see someone with such little experience to basically already regard themselves as the all-knowing expert because they've had a couple snakes in a sock drawer for a few months.

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I couldn't agree more...especially with the bolded part...:D

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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And here we go again with the idiotic statement that has nothing to do with facts.

And you came to this conclusion after owning a few snakes for 7 months.

How much experience do you have about live feeding?

How many severe incidents have you personally experienced?

Live feeding just like F/T feeding is about knowledge which in this case you are obviously lacking.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion however it is not based on any fact that can back your opinion.

Live or F/T I really don’t care I feed mainly live (only a few thousands of prey each years) and I also feed F/T to some animals or when I have surplus.

Again feeding is about being knowledgeable and responsible (even F/T has it’s risks) not about being force into something because of fears or idiotic statements.

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Originally Posted by Crazymonkee

Not true. And I'd NEVER be willing to find out

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Lol

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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Talking out of your ass is also a stupid idea yet you have no problem doing that

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Lol

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I wasn't being funny.

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Wow.... you just can't get enough bashing can you?

My Dumeril's has scares and scabs all over her head, which the previous owner admitted was from feeding live. A snake at the nearest pet store was killed by it's prey about two weeks ago. That's the only personal experience I have, but that's enough for my common sense to say "hmm... Maybe feeding live isn't as swell as people think". Perhaps I'm a hypocrite because I have fed live (when I first started keeping), and I didn't have the materials to euthanize Duma's last meal.

I'm just going to dance again :banana::banana::banana::banana:

I feed live and have never had an issue.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Lol

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Talking out of your ass is also a stupid idea yet you have no problem doing that

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I honestly don't think he sees the problen here.

He seems to think it's funny.

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Originally Posted by Crazymonkee

I wasn't being funny.

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It's all a joke to him.

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Originally Posted by sho220

I have a feeling he's never heard the old saying "You learn more from listening than talking". :rolleyes:

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Then maybe you should [shut up].

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

My Dumeril's has scares and scabs all over her head, which the previous owner admitted was from feeding live. A snake at the nearest pet store was killed by it's prey about two weeks ago. That's the only personal experience I have, but that's enough for my common sense to say "hmm... Maybe feeding live isn't as swell as people think". Perhaps I'm a hypocrite because I have fed live (when I first started keeping), and I didn't have the materials to euthanize Duma's last meal.

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Because those people are idiots


You're a hypocrite? Big shocker

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Originally Posted by kat_black181

I honestly don't think he sees the problen here.

He seems to think it's funny.



It's all a joke to him.

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Read that a few times.

As a quick rundown of the risks of feeding F/T, since we're so quick to jump on the criticism of live:

~Thawing a rodent wrong.

• Too hot: The rodent gets cooked, causing complications for the snake. Can lead to regurgitation and lack of nutrition value.
• Too cold/still frozen on the inside: The snake's body goes into shock during digestion because of the chunk of ice that is now in its stomach. It tries desperately to thermoregulate, but more often these snakes end up dying because their body isn't equipped to handle ice/anything cooler than a rodent's normal body temp.

~Leaving a thawed rodent in overnight.

• Decomposition begins again once the rodent begins to thaw. Leaving a thawed rodent in an enclosure overnight can lead to the rat going septic and poisoning your snake, if it even wants to eat the smelly rodent at all. This is why offering food for up to one half-hour is recommended, rather than leaving a rodent in overnight. (Note: exceptions are occasionally made for shy eaters.)

There's a reason we have time limits on feeding exposure and that we insist that feeding time is monitored closely by a responsible caretaker. Yes, in the wild these snakes eat live pretty much exclusively, but in captivity we have the means to make feeding a sefe, foolproof environment. All it takes is a little effort in responsibility. We are all that stands between the snake and the dangers that lie before it, so why not take every precaution, regardless of the method of feeding?

Live or F/T, you have a responsibility to your animal to make the environment a safe place. As long as that's happening, I have no qualms with folks who prefer live feeding to F/T.

Easy Live Feeding Precautions:

• Offering food for only 15 minutes at a time. Your snake can and will decide in that time whether it's hungry or not.
• Having an object at hand to distract/block the rat if it becomes defensive.
• Offering pre-killed is simple, as the rat still maintains its body temp if cervically dislocated just before putting it in the tank.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Read that a few times.

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Yea. Typo.

Trolls wil be trolls.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

Because those people are idiots


You're a hypocrite? Big shocker

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They're stupid because feeding live is dangerous.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

My Dumeril's has scares and scabs all over her head, which the previous owner admitted was from feeding live. A snake at the nearest pet store was killed by it's prey about two weeks ago. That's the only personal experience I have, but that's enough for my common sense to say "hmm... Maybe feeding live isn't as swell as people think". Perhaps I'm a hypocrite because I have fed live (when I first started keeping), and I didn't have the materials to euthanize Duma's last meal.

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And again COMMON SENSE.

That YOU decide it's not for you based on 2 experiences that were likely due to irresponsibility, I have no problem with it, do what you want it's YOUR choice.

When you make such a stupid statement

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Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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based on your opinion and not fact don't expect people to agree.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

My Dumeril's has scares and scabs all over her head, which the previous owner admitted was from feeding live. A snake at the nearest pet store was killed by it's prey about two weeks ago. That's the only personal experience I have, but that's enough for my common sense to say "hmm... Maybe feeding live isn't as swell as people think". Perhaps I'm a hypocrite because I have fed live (when I first started keeping), and I didn't have the materials to euthanize Duma's last meal.

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Aye carumba...that's called "hearsay", not "personal experience"...what is wrong with you???? :confusd:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay?s=t

This makes me sad...:tears:

No it's dangerous if done irresponsibly. And with that I am not fueling his childish behavior any longer

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Originally Posted by kat_black181

Yea. Typo.

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No... The post by Crazymonkey that I replied to with "lol"

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

They're stupid because feeding live is dangerous.

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Feeding f/t can be just as dangerous if not more, when done done irresponsibly.

What do you think a BP eats in the wild?

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

No... The post by Crazymonkey that I replied to with "lol"

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I can read well enough to know that you're trying to deflect right now. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

That's the only personal experience I have

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Then why are you talking like you know what you're talking about?

Robins experience of over 20K live feedings probably trumps this "personal experience" of yours...

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Originally Posted by cory9oh4

Feeding f/t can be just as dangerous if not more, when done done irresponsibly.

What do you think a BP eats in the wild?

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So you don't think wild snakes die from rodents?
Why am I still arguing? Lol
You guys are stupid enough to feed live, I should've expected stupid comments.

Can we just get this locked? Clearly it's not going anywhere. BS is set in his ideas, so there's no point arguing and feeding the fire.

It's a real shame that this type of aggressive confrontation happens as frequently as it does. We're all here for expansion of knowledge, or at least I thought we were.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Feeding live is a stupid idea for any snakes

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Hundreds of live feeding here and never a single injury.
There are guidelines out there for feeding live. If you follow them, 99.9% it will be a safe and successful feed.

Not to mention there are also risks to f/t.
Plenty of noobs have killed their snakes feeding improperly thawed out rodents. They fed a rodent that was warm on the outside, but with a still frozen core. The snakes went into a system shock and died.

No feeding method is risk free. You just have to be aware, knowledgeable, and vigilant with your feeding. Feed what works for you and your animals. F/t, p/k, and live are no better or worse than the others. There are pros and cons to each method.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

A snake will eventually get hungry enough and take f/t. If not...
Freshly killed √

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Clearly you haven't met a truly picky Ball Python.
Some would rather starve to death than eat p/k or f/t.
Some would rather starve than eat certain prey items.

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So I would've been smart to let my hatchling die instead of going live... you are so right. I am stupid

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Our views are so different because I only own one ball python. My snakes take what they have, and I haven't ever had an issue with my BP, either.
I don't generally like those snakes for a reason.

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by Crazymonkee

So I would've been smart to let my hatchling die instead of going live... you are so right. I am stupid

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Yes! Finally you get it...

Live feeding tips and method:

1) Feed the appropriate size food. I like smaller and more frequent meals than larger and less often. Weanlings and small rats are safe and harmless(to some extent). They're also not as conscious to danger as an adult would be. Adult rats can pack a nasty bite and are much stronger at fighting back, which is why "smaller and more frequent" is the way to go. I feed all of my adults weaned/small rats once a week. And multiple smalls for the big girls. A medium size would be the max appropriate size for a ball python.

2) Keep the feeder well fed and hydrated. They're less likely to see your snake as food. Hungry rats are dangerous rats. They will eat your snake if left unattended for extended periods of time. This is the reason for most if not all snake killing incidences.

3) Don't dangle the live feeder. This puts them in panic mode. A freaked out feeder is a dangerous feeder. Gently place the feeder into your enclosure. Calm feeders are good.

4) Monitor your feedings and keep a tool, such as tongs, on hand to assist your snake in case the feeder tries to bite down during a coil. I use a chop stick to stick in the feeder's mouth if its in a bad position.

5) Don't keep the feeder in with your snake longer than 30 mins max or so. Some people have a shorter time frame. If he doesn't eat within that time frame, take out the feeder and save it for next week.
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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

So you don't think wild snakes die from rodents?
Why am I still arguing? Lol
You guys are stupid enough to feed live, I should've expected stupid comments.

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You have GOT to be kidding. I can't do anything but shake my head with the amount of total ignorance and complete UNWILLINGNESS to realize how ridiculous you sound.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

Our views are so different because I only own one ball python.

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

So you don't think wild snakes die from rodents?
Why am I still arguing? Lol
You guys are stupid enough to feed live, I should've expected stupid comments.

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And you are comparing apple and oranges, that really helps your arguments. :rolleyes:

Knowledge and responsibility of feeding captive bred reptiles cannot be compared to feeding in the wild can it?

Again backed into a corner with no fact but just your personal opinion and not capable of having a mature discussion. :rolleyes:

I will say it again I feed THOUSANDS of live prey each year, have done so for a good while, I personally know people that feed even larger numbers, that does not mean YOU should feed live (I actually don't think YOU should), it means it can be done safely and that people doing so are far from stupid.

Again it's about knowledge and educating people not scaring them like you've been scared.

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Our views are so different because I only own one ball python.

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And that has nothing to do with anything either, I always work at a point or another with at least 5 species of snakes.

Sometime you might want to think before you post.

smh...

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Originally Posted by B.O.S Reptiles

So you don't think wild snakes die from rodents?
Why am I still arguing? Lol
You guys are stupid enough to feed live, I should've expected stupid comments.

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In regards to ball pythons, I would say its pretty slim. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, only that its most likely not common. They eat African soft furred rats. ASFs get to small rat size max. I've seen plenty of wild caught adults that look amazing. No scars or any outward damage.

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The drama died down in his AP Cages thread so the OP felt the uncontrollable need to start a thread he knew darn well would cause an uproar with his limited "experience" on something he knows nothing about and close-mindedness. Bravo OP! You've been a true gem on this board lately.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

And you are comparing apple and oranges, that really help your arguments. :rolleyes:

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Right now, B.O.S is probably trying to figure out what these have to do with ball pythons...:D
http://cobornsdelivers.files.wordpre...pg?w=300&h=199