Low white or Ringer?

I got this as a low white and have never heard the term ringer until today so now Im worried.What do the experts think?

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/...71035118_n.jpghttps://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/...72880377_n.jpghttps://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/...61521697_n.jpg

Looks like a low white to me. Most ringers I've seen have it lower on the body. Plus yours has a really wonky pattern. Here's a body shot of my ringer. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/hare4agy.jpg

It looks more pied than ringer with those crazy patterns. Decider is does it have the pied dirty looking chin?

Low white; IMO.

There's quite a bit of white to her to be a ringer.

My girl:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/5ypyma9e.jpg

What do you mean but dirty chin?He does have a weird thing going on but I never payed much attention to it.
Also,what do you guys think hes worth?I got him in a trade along with a champagne for an adult water monitor.

I've seen the adult low whites for around 350-400

Hey, Eric. It's SnakeGuy. I'd agree with these other replies that it's a low white, but I've only seen two low whites in person and no ringers in person, so take that with a grain of salt.

In my opinion, he must be bred to a few visuals to prove him out. I believe he is a true Paradox Pied. He has both Pied pattern and normal pattern on his body. Where the pattern is normal, he has het Pied belly markers, where it is Pied, he has a Pied belly. We produced him in 2010 and sold him cheap and with full disclosure because I wasn't willing to risk our reputation by selling him as a Pied. Here is a link to our clutch records that shows him: http://piedpeddler.com/page2.php?vie...ory=7&image=70

Maybe somebody who knows more about Pieds than me can guarantee he is a Pied by looking at him. I have never been willing to do that. He is now old enough to have been bred several times in order to determine for sure if he is a Pied.

Paul

My super pastel het pied has a ringer, kinda.

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1a1ff737.jpg
http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/...ps188b1659.jpg

Not sure if its a true ringer, but it looks like someone took an eraser to it.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

There's quite a bit of white to her to be a ringer.

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So you're saying a lot of white = no ringer? Please explain!

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hamp-ovulation

I've never heard any amount of white on a pied referred to as a ringer.

Its a low white. Visual Pieds don't really have ringers. They are high, medium, or low whites. Het Pieds or other morphs have ringers.

My fire yellowbelly has a tiny little ringer on her neck.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...s4d10f9bf.jpeg

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Its a low white. Visual Pieds don't really have ringers. They are high, medium, or low whites. Het Pieds or other morphs have ringers.

My fire yellowbelly has a tiny little ringer on her neck.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...s4d10f9bf.jpeg

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Could my super pastel het pied have a ringer simply because he's het pied? Or can random morphs have them? And I know 100% that he's het pied.

Just look at the pattern. A 'ringer' will have a normal looking pattern with white patches extending up the sides down near the cloaca, the best examples of ringers have a complete circle around the body (which is where they get the name from) This was often said to be a marker for het pieds along with the rails on the belly, however I've seen ringers in normals as well. Your snake has the pied pattern as well as the white patches, sure looks like a low white pied to me.

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Originally Posted by PiedPeddler

In my opinion, he must be bred to a few visuals to prove him out. I believe he is a true Paradox Pied. He has both Pied pattern and normal pattern on his body. Where the pattern is normal, he has het Pied belly markers, where it is Pied, he has a Pied belly. We produced him in 2010 and sold him cheap and with full disclosure because I wasn't willing to risk our reputation by selling him as a Pied. Here is a link to our clutch records that shows him: http://piedpeddler.com/page2.php?vie...ory=7&image=70

Maybe somebody who knows more about Pieds than me can guarantee he is a Pied by looking at him. I have never been willing to do that. He is now old enough to have been bred several times in order to determine for sure if he is a Pied.

Paul

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Who did you sell him to?because the guy I got him from said he was low white and didnt say anything about being a paradox pied.What exactly does Paradox pied mean anyways?He also sold him to me as a 2011 but that snake in the picture sure looks like him.

Definitely the same snake. Match up the markings

We produced a low white pied female last summer. Your snake is def a low white pied.

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

Definitely the same snake. Match up the markings

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I agree its the same snake.I mated them up when I first saw it.PiedPeddler Has an amazing memory lol

A paradox ball python is one that shows 2 different genetic appearances at once. For example, a paradox Albino will have part of its body Albino and part of its body normal.
A paradox expression in a simple recessive creates a dilemma for a breeder. This dilemma will probably make more sense if I stick with the Albino example. Suppose someone produces a male paradox Albino with 3/4 of his body looking like an Albino and 1/4 of his body looking normal. That’s neat, right? What happens if you breed him to a normal or a het Albino? Could anybody guarantee that all his offspring will be hets? How would you know if every one of his sperm are carrying 2 copies of the Albino gene in order to share one with his mate to produce hets? If part of the animal’s appearance looks normal (missing both copies of the Albino gene), isn’t there a good chance that some of his sperm are missing both copies of those genes as well?
To me, that is the dilemma that this snake presents. Although it is not overwhelmingly obvious in the pictures in this thread, if the OP looks at this snake, he will see 2 areas of normal pattern that wrap fully around the snake. In and adjacent to those areas, there is also wacky checkerboarding near the belly that you see in ringers, as well as an indication of het Pied belly markers.
I’ll send a private message regarding who purchased him locally here in AZ. I would guess the snake has changed hands a few times since then, especially his hatch date is now off by a year. As you have seen here, most people believe he is a Pied because they quickly recognize the obvious Pied attributes, and don’t even notice the paradox areas of normal pattern he has. If the snake were positioned differently, it would be easier to see. Regardless, it is no surprise the person you got him from did not describe him as paradox.
Paul

Very interesting, PiedPeddler. And right on the money. I didn't even notice the normal pattern. I'm glad you remembered this snake and chimed in, I'm sure the OP is as well.

for sure PIED

Yes, although we have hatched easily 150 Pieds since starting out, I remember this one! I was really bummed he wasn't a girl. I would have gladly held it back just to explore its genetics and see if it ever produced a het when bred to a visual Pied. But by 2010 we had several visual combo males coming up to size and it did not make any sense to raise up this male for "dinking" around.

Paul

I am very glad the original breeder remembered this snake and told the OP his/her opinion of it. I trust their judgement in this matter. That being said, I would have no trouble buying this as a low white pied, because that's what it looks like.

My own low white pied male has two small "paradox" normal spots as well, you have to look, but they are there. He produced visual pieds when bred to het pied females, so I have no doubt my boy is a low white pied. He also has the little hourglass shaped marking near his tail that is common to "ringers". I've seen many ringers, both in photos and in person, and the way I always go by is the pattern. Any amount of white anywhere on the snake but the rest of it has a typical ball python pattern, that to me says ringer. Any amount of white anywhere on the snake, and most of the rest of the body has a really crazy, shattered and splotched pattern, I say that makes it a low white pied.

Then you get a snake like Dave Green's extreme ringer Champagne. And that one snake breaks all the rules. Insane amounts of white, no patterning to speak of, everything in your brain screams pied. But I trust Dave to know what his snake is, and he says there is no pied in it. So how do you classify that one? Or her offspring? If someone bought one of her offspring, and then sold it later as a champagne pied, how would you know if it was or not? So I can see why the breeder hesitated to call it a pied for sure. Most likely it is a low white pied. The breeder probably believes it to be a low white pied. But, with their reputation on the line, if the snake was sold as a pied and then never produced a pied, what would that mean for the breeder? It is better to err on the side of caution, than to have a glaring mistake come back to bite you.

OP, if I were in your position, I would go forward with this animal as a pied. I would breed it to one or more KNOWN het pieds, or even better a visual pied, and judge the babies accordingly. But even that is not without flaws, at least in the case of het pieds. Because statistically speaking, you could breed him as a visual pied to several het pieds and not get a single visual. It isn't likely, but it could very well happen. I've seen it before. Whereas if you took him to a visual, there could be no doubt. Because every baby should be pied. If they are not, then you know he isn't what you thought he was. And if by some freak chance some are and some are not, then you are right back where you started. :P

Gale

My plan was to either sell him or trade him for a female Sunglow boa because I breed Boas and not BPs.I guess now I have to breed BPs as well lol.If I do sell or trade him then I will show this thread to whoever is interested in him.

I, too, say low white pied. What does the belly look like?

What piedpeddler is describing is what geneticists commonly call a chimera. Here is a writeup for those who are interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29

The problem with Chimeras is that you don't know which population of cells the sex cells are derived from so there is no way to determine how it will reproduce.

Very interesting.

Chimeras don't show up in the wild though, do they???

We made some at UC Davis, and it required surrogate parents and embryonic implantation, etc.

They can show up anywhere. Even in humans. It's basically just two or more distinct embryos fused together to create one organism.

This isn't something you could breed for though??

That looks low white to me, ringers tend to change the pattern near the ringer part and the white normally doesn't stop abruptly like that, normally fades into the color a bit. There are exceptions though, hence my overuse of the word normally, but looks low white to me.

Here is the underside for those that wanted to see it.
https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/...10846455_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Trackstrong83

Could my super pastel het pied have a ringer simply because he's het pied? Or can random morphs have them? And I know 100% that he's het pied.

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Other than het Pieds, some regular fire and champagne gene stuff tend to throw ringers as well.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

That is a low white pied. Here is my extreme ringer leopard by comparison:

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps7c9603b1.jpg

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps9fcc2244.jpg

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps294472f0.jpg

Notice how your pied has a white belly, where Spot has a yellow belly with white where the ringer is. Also your pied has a very blurry watercolored pattern, where Spot's pattern is more defined and crisp.

Can you unwind him and take another top/side picture, so we can see the areas PiedPeddler considers normal pattern wrapping around?

He's definitely not a het, and I'm pretty doubtful on either chimera or paradox. I'm up to my neck in low-whites, and he looks like a pretty straightforward low-white pied to me.

Here are some pictures of him as a hatchling.

http://piedpeddler.com/data/storage/...971f42d91c.jpg

http://piedpeddler.com/data/storage/...5002e45f72.jpg

http://piedpeddler.com/data/storage/...9978b61e08.jpg

http://piedpeddler.com/data/storage/...d05b08f53b.jpg

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Can you unwind him and take another top/side picture, so we can see the areas PiedPeddler considers normal pattern wrapping around?

He's definitely not a het, and I'm pretty doubtful on either chimera or paradox. I'm up to my neck in low-whites, and he looks like a pretty straightforward low-white pied to me.

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I was uploading the pictures when you posted this. There are 2 sections of his body where his pattern goes all the way to his belly scales. In those sections, he has alien-head pattern on his sides. We've hatched more than our share of low whites over the years and with our diverse breedstock, we have seen huge variations in their appearances. He very well could be a full-blooded low white Pied, but if so it is the first one I've ever seen with distinct sections of alien heads and pattern all the way to it's belly scales. Therefore I believe that it may be a paradox (chimera). I made my customer aware of the concern in 2010 and sold it at a discount. If someone breeds it to a visual Pied and get any hets at all, I do not want to be accused of misrepresenting anything or withholding information.

Paul

Is Ringer a new morph ???????????


All I see is an awesome low white PIED

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

Is Ringer a new morph ???????????


All I see is an awesome low white PIED

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Its a trait that some morphs tend to throw more than others, cinny/bp and pied it seems to happen the most. Not a morph though, but then Dave Green has some crazy stuff that is genetic, but its not quite the same, it throws a ridiculous amount of white compared to your average ringer.

Oh I know I just thought there was a morph I was missing lol

Yeah, okay, I see your point about the alien heads. I feel like I've seen no-white pieds on Pete Kahl's site that looked like that, but they're gone now.

The belly pics just convince me that he's pied, and the orange patches convince me that he's AWESOME. Well, I'm willing to buy paradox, but I'm thinking he'll prove out double-gene pied no problem.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Yeah, okay, I see your point about the alien heads. I feel like I've seen no-white pieds on Pete Kahl's site that looked like that, but they're gone now.

The belly pics just convince me that he's pied, and the orange patches convince me that he's AWESOME. Well, I'm willing to buy paradox, but I'm thinking he'll prove out double-gene pied no problem.

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He is for sale :cool: pm me if youre interested.

Boy, he DOES have a weird belly!! I don't think I've ever seen a pied with pattern that touched it's belly like that. If I had money to spend, I'd make an offer in him just because he's an odd ball. Pun intended!

Gale