Leonardo is sick, swelling/bleeding...

So, about 2 weeks ago I noticed Leo's head swelling. His mouth seemed alright, though a little extra mucus/saliva, but coloration was good and he didn't have bubbles/wheezing/coughing etc. It went away within an hour to an hour and a half. He ate without question, so I thought perhaps he had just smacked his nose/got a little too rough with the ladies. Well, the day after taking him out from my biggest girls tub (First visual lock I might add), he was swelling BIG TIME. This time, I was super worried because inside his mouth looked black/blue, and there was some blood at the back of his throat/mouth. Not good. I had my husband (I had to leave for work) Call and make an appointment with our local herp doc. She was able to see him that day and diagnosed as a possible mouth abrasion / injury. 7 days of oral baytril later, and swelling going up and down randomly over the week, today it was pretty damn bad. Swollen up huge and a lot more blood. Enough that it dripped out of his mouth and got on my hands and my husbands. Again, work day...so I had him call and schedule another appointment (monday). Tonight while giving him meds he was still pretty swollen, so I took some pictures and a video that way the vet (we're going to a different vet, as I wasn't there the first time to tell her I would have preferred injections, silly me thought she would insist on injections) so I'm going to take him in to a well known herp vet about an hour away. The only thing I can find as far as "online diagnosis" is mouth rot, but he has had zero puss/cheese, tounge flicks are very much regular, and he's eating like a champ. Not to mention, He gets his paper changed/tub disinfected every time he dirties it/spills his water/looks at it funny. I've noticed when his head is swollen, there is a red uhh..blob? looking thing in the lower left side of his bottom jaw. Not sure if it's a gland, abscess, blister or what. You can see it in the video.

I'm not expecting anyone to diagnose him via the internet with limited pictures/information etc, just mostly looking for insight as to if this has been seen before. Speculation is welcomed, and hopefully if this ever comes up with someone else, this thread will be here to let them know it's happened before.

SO!
Here's the stats
Leo is about 650ish grams and about 7months old
He eats f/t
Bedding is unprinted newspaper
Hot side 89-90 (infrared temp gun checked, controlled by a herpstat 4)
cool 76-78
32qt tub
Fresh water 2-3x a week or more if he decides to dump it.
If any other info is needed/wanted just let me know

Pics and Video
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps667341a6.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps7933743e.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps145f6fe6.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps4f74b70b.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse989f26b.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps2541d8a8.jpg

Inside of mouth video
http://youtu.be/NTp-Tv2IuX0

Poor Leo :( I hope someone has some insight to what is going on with him!

My first thought was maybe he lost a tooth during feeding and it got infected :(... That's my best guess... I hope this passes fairly quickly, Tiff :(..

I don't have a ton of experience yet with snakes but could it be that he's got something stuck in there and it's getting infected? Kind of like a thorn or splinter does to a human. Possibly a piece of bedding off of a rat or maybe even a piece of rat? I know it sounds yuck but it's worth looking into. Otherwise I would guess just some growth or infection that just happened to pop up in his mouth. I hope the vet figures it out quickly though, it looks really uncomfortable!

If memory serves me right, supercoiled constrictors had a BP with a condition similar to this. They had it on their adoptions page, and has been adopted I believe. They are going out of business, but I would still shoot an email their way. Here is a link
: http://www.supercoilconstrictors.com/adoptions.html

Hope this helps, and I wish Leo a speedy recovery!

I'm very interested in seeing how this turns out. Please keep us posted and good luck!

Yeesh. I can't offer any input on this but I'm certain everyone is hoping that it turns out to be nothing severe! Best wishes!

Poor guy. I hope he's ok.

Poor little buddy.

I am thinking he got something caught in his mouth and it got infected. Kind of like an abscess in a human mouth. The good thing is, it doesn't seem to be serious enough to panic since the vet can't see him until Monday. I'd just treat him like you usually do, keep an eye on him, and let us know what the vet says Monday.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Gale

Thank you all for the well wishes. Much appreciated. I will definitely contact supercoil constrictors about their little "Puf".

Again, thanks everyone, I will update with any information/changes/etc.

Kind of reminds me of an infection my buddy had one of his females get. Swelled up her jaw area where your guys looks to be swelling at. Can't member what type it was but common from what he said. Vet gave him antiboitics to inject into her for like two weeks can't member the schdule but she turned around fast an is good now.

Best wishes for that poor little stud!

Oh jeeze, I hope recovers quickly and it's nothing too serious.

Eh this reminds me... I need to make a thread :/

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I'm guessing he lost a tooth or a tooth got impacted or something. Should be fine with some treatment but I'm no expert :P

I'm really surprised they didn't treat with clindamycin. It targets mouth issues and works faster/better than baytril. It seems to me that little guy needs a very good mouth inspection and different meds. It looks like its one of three things to me without a culture being done.. Mouth rot, a severe RI, or an I jury/irritation caused by either a broken/abscessed tooth, or bedding. If its a tooth issue it would require treatment by something that targets mouth infections. Possibly on and off until the damaged tooth comes out, or swelling is down enough to pinpoint it for removal.

You really need to see a better herp specialist and get a mouth culture done to find out what type of bacteria is in there, and one who will take the time to explore these other obvious possibilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

I'm really surprised they didn't treat with clindamycin. It targets mouth issues and works faster/better than baytril. It seems to me that little guy needs a very good mouth inspection and different meds. It looks like its one of three things to me without a culture being done.. Mouth rot, a severe RI, or an I jury/irritation caused by either a broken/abscessed tooth, or bedding. If its a tooth issue it would require treatment by something that targets mouth infections. Possibly on and off until the damaged tooth comes out, or swelling is down enough to pinpoint it for removal.

You really need to see a better herp specialist and get a mouth culture done to find out what type of bacteria is in there, and one who will take the time to explore these other obvious possibilities.

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We have already made an appointment with one about an hour away (as noted in the post).
The thing with the following possibilities is this
RI - no popping/wheezing/coughing/drooling
Mouth rot - no puss/cheese and normal tongue flicking/no "stuck tongue"
He is on unprinted newspaper, so no bedding. Rats are clean f/t with no stuck bedding on them.

I am leaning towards tooth/abscess.

This morning when giving him his baytril, his head wasn't swollen and the color actually looked closer to normal than anytime in the past week.

In the original vets defense, she put him on oral baytril yes, but wanted to do cultures after the course of baytril if he was still showing symptoms. I was unhappy with the meds given, so I'm taking him to another vet.

Your thread reminded me very much of what happened with my snake, I very much doubt it is the same though, not trying to scare you.


http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195427

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Man...I hope little Leo gets better soon!

At the recient conferance in Florida there was a lot of debate about the use of oral antibiotics and snakes. There is good evidance that a combination of injections and then followed by oral is the most effective. I don't think the studies are complete at this point, but we keepers need to get up to speed. My understanding is a round of injections followed by extended oral is best based on the current knowelege.

Wouldn't the culture be more useful if it was done before antibiotics were started? I was under the impression that this was the case, at least with humans.

I hope the poor guy is feeling better soon...keep us posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Wouldn't the culture be more useful if it was done before antibiotics were started? I was under the impression that this was the case, at least with humans.

I hope the poor guy is feeling better soon...keep us posted.

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Yes a culture would have been more beneficial prior to treatment. What usually happens is the swab is taken and sent in to the lab for testing. The snake is generally started on a common treatment while waiting for the culture results just so the infection does not get worse. Then the meds are changed if necessary to better fit the final diagnosis once the test results come back.

Doing one now should still show what type of bacteria is present, but if the baytril is helping it may not matter.

My post was more meant to explain that if it is an abscess or tooth issue, it may not go away as quickly as RI or rot. Tooth issues often flare up more than once until the bad tooth comes out. I had this problem with one of my retics. Due to a broken tooth there was an abscess. It took 3 rounds of treatment during flare ups over the course of almost a year before the problem finally fixed itself. Their mouths are so sensitive that the smallest thing can cause an infection.

Poor little guy! Hope you find out soon what it is and he recovers quickly!

Thanks so much everyone. He was looking great this morning as far as swelling and mouth color. But alas, this evening his head was partly swollen again and that red area was puffed up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

Your thread reminded me very much of what happened with my snake, I very much doubt it is the same though, not trying to scare you.


http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195427

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I'm so sorry for your loss :( This is really a scary thought. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FireStorm

Wouldn't the culture be more useful if it was done before antibiotics were started? I was under the impression that this was the case, at least with humans.

I hope the poor guy is feeling better soon...keep us posted.

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Yes, very much so. Her reasoning behind it was explained to me as, she was trying to save us the money of the cultures and believed the baytril oral would be enough. Although she is a registered reptile vet and appears on all of the "herp vet" websites, I think she might be better suited at more common issues like parasites/burns/etc rather than internal. It seems like many vets believe baytril is the cure-all for reptiles, and although it does work phenomenally for a lot of things, I agree a culture is needed. I guess it was just wishful thinking/hoping on my part that we might be able to beat this thing with 1 visit/treatment. Silly me :rolleyes:

So here is a question, he ate about 7 days ago, should I offer him? Or hold off until after the vet on monday? He's cruising and I know he's a hungry little dude (or smells the rats the others are getting ;) ) But I don't want to possibly irritate the abscess/abraison/tooth...Opinions welcomed!


Again, thank you all so much for the insight and speculations. Our visit is at 5pm on Monday so I will update after that as soon as I'm able.

I personally wouldn't feed him quite yet until you get the ok from the vet. Mostly because if it is an infection in his mouth, I'm not sure raw rat meat would help that out any. Also the possibility of him taking it and hurting himself more in the process. I don't think it would hurt him any to wait but it might hurt him to take it so I would go with the lesser of 2 evils there just to be safe...

More than likely he wont eat.
Your situation looks very familiar to an issue I had with an acquired snake.
I had to extract a couple broken teeth out of the gum line. All kinds of stuff came out with them but the swelling went down almost instantly.
The only reasons I did it was because it was going to be 48 hours before I could get him to a good vet and when I was looking in his mouth I saw one of the teeth sticking out sideways.

Surprisingly enough he has not refused a meal yet during this 2 week ordeal. But I will wait until talking to the vet on Monday. He may not be happy with me for holding out on him, but I'm sure it's it's best for him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Surprisingly enough he has not refused a meal yet during this 2 week ordeal. But I will wait until talking to the vet on Monday. He may not be happy with me for holding out on him, but I'm sure it's it's best for him.

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Eating could irritate the area and cause another flare-up. I'd definitely hold out so that it isn't swollen at the appointment and maybe the issue can be spotted easier.

5 o'clock can't get here fast enough. I want him all better :-(

I'm really looking forward to meeting this vet too. He's a very active member of the central florida herpetological society, and has some stellar reviews.

Thank you all for the help and insight. I will update after the visit this afternoon.

Good luck and i hope the little guy makes a speedy recovery.

Okay, so we're back from the vet. And the news is...confusing.

So within seconds of Dr.Bruce opening Leo's mouth, he said it was not RI, Mouth Rot, or an abscess. He had never seen this type of hemorrhaging in the mouth without free bleeding elsewhere (fecal/vent). He took many pictures to send to colleagues out west, and took blood to run a full bloodwork on him. He told me he would not prescribe medication until he had narrowed down a cause/diagnosis more. He is going to call me tomorrow with the blood results and we'll figure out a course of action from there. He said the good thing is that it's not affecting his behavior or appetite. He said to continue his normal feeding schedule.

The teeth all look good, no broken teeth.

The only thing he asked me to change is what rats he's currently eating, as that is the only thing that singles Leo out vs my other snakes. Leo is the only snake currently eating f/t weaned rats from this bag. He said it may be unrelated, but to eliminate that difference and get him on the same rats as my others (My personal bred rats, rather than the ones I bought online) just to rule that out.

He believes the bloodwork will grant some insight into what is going on, he thinks it could be red blood cell related. Hopefully, by this time tomorrow we will have a more direct diagnosis and an idea of how to treat it.

I am very pleased with this vet, as he seems to be very knowledgeable regarding herps, and asked a LOT of questions, which is more than I can say for the other vet.

So..no real answer, but we have at least ruled out mouth rot, ri and abscess.

Evidently Leo must be unique in all aspects of life :rolleyes:

Well that sounds... Promising...? I hope. :/

Good luck....hope all goes well..

How's the little guy doing after the vet appointment? Has he enjoyed his missed dinner?

Hopefully the bloodwork will reveal something that's treatable.

He gobbled up his rat pups with a quickness. He's still acting like his normal goofy self, and the swelling is down for the moment.

Yes, I am hoping for that as well. I don't even want to think about the possibility the other way...I have a meeting in the morning at 8, so hopefully Dr.Bruce calls sometime after that. I am anxiously awaiting tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

He gobbled up his rat pups with a quickness. He's still acting like his normal goofy self, and the swelling is down for the moment.

Yes, I am hoping for that as well. I don't even want to think about the possibility the other way...I have a meeting in the morning at 8, so hopefully Dr.Bruce calls sometime after that. I am anxiously awaiting tomorrow.

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I'm glad he still has his appetite!

Hoping it's a quick cure kinda deal. Poor little guy. Thanks for posting because I'm sure others, and maybe even myself, might need this some day.

A ball pythons head and mouth are the most sensitive areas of their body's. As such the least little thing will cause an abscess/infection, You feed F/T but that doesn't mean that in the eating process some slight damage didn't happen. A simple scratch inside the mouth even from a dead rodent's tooth or toe nail is more that enough to allow bacteria to settle in and reek havoc. I've seen this only twice in my years of keeping and breeding, one time the abscess ruptured the snake healed and all was fine. The second time I spent 2 months treating with a regiment of alternating Baytril and Forataz in the end nothing was able to fully heal the animal and we lost it.

My suggesting would be this..Feed smaller meals and about half as often the less stress and work damaged area is having to do to heal the better. Second if you haven't already get injectable antibiotics, snakes metabolisms are so slow that oral treatments almost never work for more serious issues, that coupled with the fact that the stress involved in giving them is just as bad to the animal as the injury. Third, your snake is off limits to handling, videos, pictures, show and tell or even the morning stroll while you're having your coffee. Your snake needs to focus all it's energy on healing. Lastly bump up your temps just a few degrees over your normal keeping temps, as cold blooded critters snakes use the extra warmth to help speed things like digestion and antibody product up, Heat = Bio - fuel

Please let us know how it turns out.

Hoping for good news tomorrow!

I hope all goes well! I wonder if the vet is thinking some sort of toxilogical/farmalogical effect? Please keep us all posted. Best of luck!

:/ Good luck! Keep us posted.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

A ball pythons head and mouth are the most sensitive areas of their body's. As such the least little thing will cause an abscess/infection, You feed F/T but that doesn't mean that in the eating process some slight damage didn't happen. A simple scratch inside the mouth even from a dead rodent's tooth or toe nail is more that enough to allow bacteria to settle in and reek havoc. I've seen this only twice in my years of keeping and breeding, one time the abscess ruptured the snake healed and all was fine. The second time I spent 2 months treating with a regiment of alternating Baytril and Forataz in the end nothing was able to fully heal the animal and we lost it.

My suggesting would be this..Feed smaller meals and about half as often the less stress and work damaged area is having to do to heal the better. Second if you haven't already get injectable antibiotics, snakes metabolisms are so slow that oral treatments almost never work for more serious issues, that coupled with the fact that the stress involved in giving them is just as bad to the animal as the injury. Third, your snake is off limits to handling, videos, pictures, show and tell or even the morning stroll while you're having your coffee. Your snake needs to focus all it's energy on healing. Lastly bump up your temps just a few degrees over your normal keeping temps, as cold blooded critters snakes use the extra warmth to help speed things like digestion and antibody product up, Heat = Bio - fuel

Please let us know how it turns out.

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I appreciate your insight Ed. Did you see my post about the post-vet outcome? He is quite certain this is not an abscess. Leo has 2-3 different types of hemorrhaging in his mouth. He believes it is cell related.

As for your advice on his care, I bumped the temperature up first thing (I did not mention that yet, so obviously no way for you to know.) And I am aware oral was not the best option. Which is why I switched vets. (Paired with the lack of cultures)

I have not been "strolling" around with him. The pictures and video I posted were for medical documentation, taken right before his baytril dose. Not just because I felt like taking pictures of him.

Again, I appreciate your advice, but please understand that I am entrusting his care and diagnosis to a very highly recommended / regarded herp vet who has seen him first hand.

Perhaps I read it in the wrong "tone", and your advice was meant as a blanket care guide for anyone who may read this in the future. If that is the case, then I apologize for reading into it. It just came off a bit, condescending?

Oh gosh I'm sorry you took it that way. Totally not my intent at all really sorry it came off that way. I was just passing along general info of some things that in the few times I've had to deal with this problem have been just sort of auto pilot for me that you or anyone might find useful. Please keep us informed on how your little one is doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Oh gosh I'm sorry you took it that way. Totally not my intent at all really sorry it came off that way. I was just passing along general info of some things that in the few times I've had to deal with this problem have been just sort of auto pilot for me that you or anyone might find useful. Please keep us informed on how your little one is doing.

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No worries at all Ed. I figured I was reading into it poorly as you have never been anything but helpful. I apologize as well and blame it on lack of sleep and too much worry!

Now, on to the Leonardo update. Got the call from Dr.Bruce about his bloodwork.

Everything came back perfect. His white count, liver values, red cell structure, everything. Zero signs of infection in the blood. There were two very small items that he told me about, but so minimal he said he would not worry about it at all. He said his protein levels were a bit (very small bit) high, indicating very slight dehydration. And his glucose was a tad low, but he said with the blood being shipped over night sometimes that can affect the glucose count slightly so he would not think anything of it with how slight the differences were.

He's shown the pictures and results to multiple herp vets across the US, with very little insight as to what might be causing the swelling/hemorrhaging.

He has one theory...but it's a bit out there, and he said he has never heard of a case of this happening, so he's not comfortable saying definitively one way or another.
It has to do with the rats he was eating. He was the only one of my snakes eating this size f/t rat from an online source. I have switched him to my own personally bred rats as per the Doctor's recommendation. Hopefully he will be able to figure out a way to test either the remaining rats from the bag, or Leo without tissue samples/necropsy.

If this theory pans out, then it could be months before we see an improvement. Thankfully, with the good blood work, if we caught it in time, it will only get better from here. Still no medication prescribed as there was zero infection, so it's a waiting game while the herp vets around the US pow-wow and try to figure out my little unique baby.

Thanks everyone for all the prayers/well wishes/advice/kind words etc. It is very much appreciated.

Thanks for the update. Have you thought about informing the company you bought the rodents from that there might be a problem with their stock? Not suggesting you tell us their name until there's more definitive proof, but maybe making them aware?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Inarikins

Thanks for the update. Have you thought about informing the company you bought the rodents from that there might be a problem with their stock? Not suggesting you tell us their name until there's more definitive proof, but maybe making them aware?

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I'm going to be contacting them shortly with a list of questions. I definitely do not want to raise any alarms without definitive proof, but I will ask the questions the vet told me to and relay the answers to him. If anything comes of it, I will give them the full information on the findings. I don't want to come off as accusing them of anything, or make them feel like I would come after them. The most important thing to me is getting the answers, and getting to the bottom of this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I'm going to ve contacting them shortly with a list of questions. I definitely do noy want to raise any alarms without definitive proof, but I will ask the questions the vet told me to and relay the answers to him. If anything comes of it, I will give them the full information on the findings. I don't wwant to come off as accusing them of anything, or make them feel like I would come after them. The most important thing to me is getting the answers, and getting to the bottom of this.

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Good approach, and best wishes for your boy.

So here's an interesting tidbit...
When I checked on leo moments ago, his head was swollen worse than I have ever seen it thus far. The vet mentioned that some calm handling, letting him step ladder my hands (by having a hand slightly elevated, he crawls to it, then bring that hand down and use other hand, like a never ending step ladder I guess?) would help reduce the swelling. So, I wanted to give it a shot. Wow, is all I can say...So here's the pics (I apologize, they are cell pics, one handed, while trying to keep a snake happy with the other..)

Before picture. Worst I've seen yet on his swelling. Picture taken at 4:02pm
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse06f2c53.jpg

After pictures. Significant reduction in swelling, though slight swelling is still present. Picture taken at 4:09p (Yea, 7 minutes.)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps82047f22.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...psd8cd197f.jpg

Tiffany that is so weird...

I know :( but at least I'm able to get the swellng down some now, thanks to the vet.

That is the strangest thing ever....