Local breeder screwed over by neighbors!

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=24951442

Get in the comments and show your support for this guy, please! He is a good friend of mine, and takes amazing care of his animals. KSL only lets you make one reply and one original comment, so make them count!

I'm hoping that if we get enough support on the story it might pressure the city into being more lenient.

Direct link to comments:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true

Oh, man..this is so sad. Poor guy :tears:

It is a shame, but the law is the law. Unfortunately, he should have checked local ordinances before he moved there. I do feel sorry for him, heaven knows it's not an easy thing to face, but really it is his responsibility to learn about things like that. Sure it's not fair, but in some places even dogs and cats are restricted. When we wanted to start keeping snakes, we made sure to check our county ordinances and then checked with the owner of our mobile home park. The county had no problems, but convincing our "landlord" was not easy. But we eventually got him to do a little research on ball pythons, and once he saw how they stay small and are not aggressive, he agreed to let us keep them on the condition none of our neighbors complained about smell or the snakes being allowed loose. Which of course is not an issue. However, he was so dead set against us having snakes at first, if we had gone ahead and gotten snakes without checking with him, chances our we would have been forced to leave or sell our pets.

I hope he finds a resolution quickly, but I fear it won't end well for him.

Gale

I am truly sorry for his circumstance. However I cant leave a positive comment. The law is the law! You have to follow it or you get in trouble. He is lucky that they didn't take them from him and slap a huge fine on him. He needs to obey the laws in his community so shame on him. The city of Newport News, VA has an ordinance against boa constrictors. When I lived there I was in the same situation. I had 30 days to get rid of them. I MOVED out of city limits! I was in violation it sucked but it is what it is.

I really hope he has some support there also to help him out. :tears:

You should know your city's bylaws and state laws whether you live where you are now or move.

It's sad that he can't keep them all, but the law is the law.

This is so very sad. You can tell that this man has a passion for his hobby but as others have stated, he is doing something illegal. I had to give up all four of my snakes that I loved so dearly. I moved into a house out in the country and the owner of this house does not tolerate snakes at all, not even a little. I rent this house, not own it, so I must adhere to my lease agreement. I know how hard it is to give up a hobby that you have a great passion for and also for the animals that you love so much. I hope he can move on and be happy that he will at least be able to keep one of his snakes.

Hahahha. I read the thread of comments posted to this article and I'm absolutely sickened at the ignorance pertaining to there replies! Some guy wanted to compare the victim who takes meticulous care of his snakes to having 30 cars parked in the driveway. Those aren't even in the same category. Sounds to me like another mob mentality group with ideals and canned opinions pushed by mainstream media. These people are literally dropping opinions without any factual backing. "THIS IS HOW I FEEL" DEEE DAA DEEEE! It's absolutely ridiculous that we gave people a voice and then twisted ideals. This fellow snake keeper has taken a genuine interest in snakes and at an even baser level nature. Isn't that the sort of free expression and pursuit of happiness that we claim are country is based on? It seems to me his interest is rightly placed giving the fact that we are individualistic society that has pushed it's people to be concerned with nothing else but are own selfs image in this rat race. Pretty sad. Hoarding is a compulsion to own animals. In this hobby 30 plus snakes is not uncommon and a responsible snake keeper has a desire to work with a particular animal not a desire to "OWN" an animal. That's part of what's wrong with this country. Everyone has an entitlement issue. People who claim to own their animals In The true sense of the word as though their companion is subservient, are the same people who will buy a pit bull learn nothing about them, get mad at there nature instead of trying to understand it, and make mistakes that get either themselves or someone else bit. Why should he have to get rid of his snakes or move? Are those seriously the options?! Because people have a fear of snakes brought about by misconception? Everyday I leave my house I see people walking around who I know are not in there right state of mind and that puts me in danger. I want an ordinance saying those people have to leave my area!!!! Once again I would like to point out that this man has taken a genuine interest in something pure and from the sounds of it was sparing no expense in doing it properly and is being chastised because a rule was passed keeping the blinders on all the people who want to have a opinion but no knowledge base pertaining to the matter. It's not right. *** RISEUP***

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Originally Posted by angllady2

It is a shame, but the law is the law. Unfortunately, he should have checked local ordinances before he moved there. I do feel sorry for him, heaven knows it's not an easy thing to face, but really it is his responsibility to learn about things like that. Sure it's not fair, but in some places even dogs and cats are restricted. When we wanted to start keeping snakes, we made sure to check our county ordinances and then checked with the owner of our mobile home park. The county had no problems, but convincing our "landlord" was not easy. But we eventually got him to do a little research on ball pythons, and once he saw how they stay small and are not aggressive, he agreed to let us keep them on the condition none of our neighbors complained about smell or the snakes being allowed loose. Which of course is not an issue. However, he was so dead set against us having snakes at first, if we had gone ahead and gotten snakes without checking with him, chances our we would have been forced to leave or sell our pets.

I hope he finds a resolution quickly, but I fear it won't end well for him.

Gale

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I absolutely agree with Gale here and the few others who've posted the same. I really feel badly for Thomas Cobb, but this is exactly why you must check with the local township and city ordinances BEFORE you move in and/or acquire any type of exotic animals (or even dogs or cats). The fact is that MANY communities have ordinances like this and many have been in place for a long time - well before the recent legislation has put this stuff in the public eye. No matter how well Cobb keeps his snakes or how well he takes care of them, the fact that he did not initially research the community's laws prior to moving in makes him just as irresponsible as the snake owner who keeps his snakes in less than ideal conditions or allows them to escape or turns them loose. I am not flaming Cobb at all, but as responsible exotic animal owners, we MUST follow the law and set a good example from the very beginnig.

I do wish the police had given him more time to come to a solution. 1 week is not enough time to decide what to do and get it done. 30 days is the norm in these cases. But perhaps there is a clause with this particular ordinance that insists on immediate resolution. We can't know all the facts. But please remember that the police are following the law and are upholding the law. That is their job and they don't have a choice about it even if they don't like it themselves. Sgt Bartlett, who was in charge of investigating the situation, actually makes the comment in this article that he was impressed by how Cobb was caring for his snakes and that the setup and snakes were "neat." I think he may well have felt badly about the situation too. "It's very neat, the way he has them," Bartlett said. "I mean, it's well organized and it's neat. Unfortunately, it's illegal."

"A few ruin it for the many— a few irresponsible people. Just like a few irresponsible dog owners. A few irresponsible drivers. A few irresponsible parents. They ruin it for the people that do it right," Cobb said. "And I'm the guy that does it right." But you didn't do it right Tom. You didn't check the ordinances before you moved in. I am truly sorry you are now in this situation and I sincerely hope there are some folks in the reptile community nearby who can help you. I do hope this situation gets resolved in your favor while still in accordance with the law.

I do hope the reptile community in his area (perhaps there is a local herp society??) will come to his aid and perhaps suitable living situations could be found for these snakes to allow Cobb more time to prepare, perhaps move, or work out some other arrangement. It is time for the herp community to step up and support a fellow member in a legal and ethical manner.

Someone should make a webpage for us to get him some donations to move to a place where his collection isn't unlawful. Or he needs to get a bank loan and use it to move into a new house and let a realtor sell his for him.

I think the cheapest solution would be to get a business license and rent a small office space to put them.

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Originally Posted by H.o.F.R

I am truly sorry for his circumstance. However I cant leave a positive comment. The law is the law! You have to follow it or you get in trouble. He is lucky that they didn't take them from him and slap a huge fine on him. He needs to obey the laws in his community so shame on him. The city of Newport News, VA has an ordinance against boa constrictors. When I lived there I was in the same situation. I had 30 days to get rid of them. I MOVED out of city limits! I was in violation it sucked but it is what it is.

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"The law is the law" is the refrain of the unthinking.
Law has nothing to do with justice. Especially in a democracy where "mob rule" is standard practice.
It used to be illegal for people of different skin tones to do the same things as other people. Like attend certain schools.
It is better to try to live as a just person and take a stand than to be a "law abiding" drone.

Get more people to think like that and you will soon see councils repeal idiotic bans for fear of being ejected from office.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

"The law is the law" is the refrain of the unthinking.
Law has nothing to do with justice. Especially in a democracy where "mob rule" is standard practice.
It used to be illegal for people of different skin tones to do the same things as other people. Like attend certain schools.
It is better to try to live as a just person and take a stand than to be a "law abiding" drone.

Get more people to think like that and you will soon see councils repeal idiotic bans for fear of being ejected from office.

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Unfortunately, some guy taking a stand for his snakes won't have nearly the impact of Rosa Parks not getting off a bus for a white dude.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Unfortunately, some guy taking a stand for his snakes won't have nearly the impact of Rosa Parks not getting off a bus for a white dude.

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You are correct if you make it about just snakes.
Instead make it about property rights and allowing others irrational fears to impact your freedoms.
If what you do does not real harm then there is no need to govern it at all. If there is harm or potential for harm then only those aspects should be governed.
i.e. A crazy cat-lady could create a health risk for people and the animals but, a dedicated cat fancier could house just as many felines without those risks.
The problem needs to be addressed not the symptom.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

And, it never hurts if affected communities can get behind a person like this and help fund a defence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven01

You are correct if you make it about just snakes.
Instead make it about property rights and allowing others irrational fears to impact your freedoms.
If what you do does not real harm then there is no need to govern it at all. If there is harm or potential for harm then only those aspects should be governed.
i.e. A crazy cat-lady could create a health risk for people and the animals but, a dedicated cat fancier could house just as many felines without those risks.
The problem needs to be addressed not the symptom.

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

And, it never hurts if affected communities can get behind a person like this and help fund a defence.

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I suppose we could rally for world peace while we're at it too, eh? For someone who likes to see his own words so much, you really don't have much of use to say.

The guy moved in, had illegal animals and got busted. I suppose finding out why and when this ordinance was put into effect and what the proper procedure is for changing it never entered that sharp little mind of yours.

This is no one's problems but Cobbs's and he brought it on himself. It's not up to us to change this. If you want to change the way things are done where you live then you need to NOT be the cause of enforcement of what you want to change. Proactive, not reactive.

And a house with a hundred cats, the crazy cat lady minimum, be it a dedicated fancier or whack job, still has NOTHING to do with keeping snakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven01

"The law is the law" is the refrain of the unthinking.
Law has nothing to do with justice. Especially in a democracy where "mob rule" is standard practice.
It used to be illegal for people of different skin tones to do the same things as other people. Like attend certain schools.
It is better to try to live as a just person and take a stand than to be a "law abiding" drone.

Get more people to think like that and you will soon see councils repeal idiotic bans for fear of being ejected from office.

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No it isn't. "You can't change the law" would be a better example of a refrain for the unthinking. Laws can be changed. But you have to work WITH the law in order to do so. Laws are in place for a reason and society would be anarchy without them. Some laws make sense and others, unfortunately, do not. Those that don't make sense, such as this one, are the laws we'd like to change.

But this is not the situation that will govern change - at least not while Cobb is still, for all intents and purposes, still breaking the law (which, like it or not, he is still doing by continuing to have these snakes in his possession and still living in a community that has an ordinance against owning snakes). Do not get me wrong - I would like nothing better than to see this law changed so Cobb could have his snakes back. But in order to effectively advocate change at ALL government levels and promote the responsible keeping of our beloved reptiles, we MUST work with the law and not cry INJUSTICE when one of our own breaks a law - no matter how idiotic that law appears on the surface.

For Cobb, or anyone else, to wail and cry because he got caught breaking the law and then beg and plead for the community to take legislative action and just change the law so he can keep his snakes and not have to move is hypocrisy at it's best and causes our hobby far more harm than nearly any other type of situation. I say again, find out what your local laws are BEFORE you are in an enforceable situation and work WITH the law to see change.

By the way, not to sound snippy, but accruacy is everything when building an argument. This country is NOT a Democracy. We are a Republic.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is no one's problems but Cobbs's and he brought it on himself. It's not up to us to change this. If you want to change the way things are done where you live then you need to NOT be the cause of enforcement of what you want to change. Proactive, not reactive.

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Wilomn is exactly right - do not be the cause of what you want changed. Be proactive, not reactive. Excellent statement and point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven01

"The law is the law" is the refrain of the unthinking.
Law has nothing to do with justice. Especially in a democracy where "mob rule" is standard practice.
It used to be illegal for people of different skin tones to do the same things as other people. Like attend certain schools.
It is better to try to live as a just person and take a stand than to be a "law abiding" drone.

Get more people to think like that and you will soon see councils repeal idiotic bans for fear of being ejected from office.

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Personally I don't think we should even have laws. Speed Limit signs should simply say, "Use Your Best Judgement". The human race can totally be trusted to police themselves.


On topic - I feel really bad for this guy, but it's the risk he took. At the end he talked about a few irresponsible keepers ruining it for everyone and he put himself in that category when he moved in with all those snakes. There's more to being a responsible pet owner than just taking good care of the animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

I feel really bad for this guy, but it's the risk he took. At the end he talked about a few irresponsible keepers ruining it for everyone and he put himself in that category when he moved in with all those snakes. There's more to being a responsible pet owner than just taking good care of the animals.

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This ^^

I agree with wilomn.

And I really don't like the "It's like taking the lollipop from your kid's hand," analogy he makes... equating live animals to candy.

The truth is if he disagrees with the existing laws, or if snake fanciers disagree with the existing laws, you work to get those laws changed. To just break the laws because "Geez whiz, I feel like it's stupid to have a law against what I want!) is setting the example of "Look, reptile owners are irresponsible hoarders who break the law".

He should have checked the laws first. When he was informed it was illegal, he should pursue a way to find other places for his snakes, move to where he could own the snakes, or suck it up and get rid of them. If he wanted to keep snakes and knew beforehand about the law, he should have worked to get the laws changed first.

I think I should be able to drive at LEAST 80mph on a lot of the roads I travel. But if I get busted by a cop driving 80mph when it's clearly marked as a 55mph zone, I deserve the ticket and no whining or wailing and pity me speeches changed the fact that I was breaking the law and got busted doing so.

The only thing I don't agree with is the "one week to resolve this matter" solution they gave him. What if he decides to move somewhere else so he can keep his animals? There is NO WAY he'll be able to sell his house (or even move out of an apartment) and into a new place in one week. At least give the guy 30 days. :|

But yes, like everyone else said, he should've checked the laws first... You can't complain about being asked to follow the rules when they've been that way since the beginning.

It seems somewhat unlikely that the one week time is set in stone. If he can show them that he's working on moving them or finding a new place I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him more time. No matter what though, he buttered his own toast then dropped it on the floor all by himself.

Mostly.

There is also the chance that he simply did not know of this ordinance and never thought to check if such a thing existed. However, as they say, ignorance of the law/ordinance is no excuse.

Unless the exotic animals ordinance was passed less than 10 months ago when this guy moved into the house, he doesn't have a leg to stand on here. Part of choosing a place to live, if you plan on having a home-based business or keeping exotic animals, is making sure that what you want to do won't violate zoning, local ordinances, HOA covenants and/or deed restrictions, etc.

Hello there! This is Thomas. Wanted to come clarify several issues.

Cottonwood Heights is a Township (in essence a private city), that is funded by city taxation etc. They have their own cites and regulations regarding all legal matters. Also including pet ownership.


The apparent violation is lack of an "exotics permit".
Let me post exact ordinance as provided by Cottonwood Heights: Definition of Exotic, Rights to an Exotic permit as well as quantity (or lack of limitation, as their is NO written statute regarding quantity of said EXOTIC).

8.04.110 Exotic animal.
“Exotic animal” means any animal
whose native habitat is not indigenous to the
continental United States, excluding Alaska,
except tropical fish, fur-bearing animals
commercially bred for the furrier trade, birds,
and dangerous animals.

8.04.300 Wild animal.
“Wild animal” means any animal of a
species that in its natural life is usually
untamed and undomesticated, including
hybrids, and animals which, as a result of their
natural or wild condition, cannot be
vaccinated for rabies. These animals include,
but are not limited to:
A. Alligators and crocodiles;
B. Bears (Ursidae). All bears, including
grizzly bears, brown bears, black bears, etc.;
C. Cat family (Felidae). All except the
commonly accepted domesticated cats,
including cheetah, leopard, lion, lynx, panther,
mountain lion, tiger, wildcat, etc.;
D. Constrictor snakes in excess of ten
feet in length;

8.12.120 Exotic animal permit.
It is unlawful for any person to own or
keep an exotic animal without a permit.
Unless prohibited by zoning or other
ordinances or laws, any person, over the age
of 18 years of age, may obtain an exotic
animal permit upon:
A. Demonstrating sufficient knowledge of the species to provide adequate care;
B. Presenting proof of adequate caging
appropriate for the species;
C. Presenting proof that the animal
poses no threat to the health and safety of the
community in the event that the animal should
escape. The director may consult with a
review board comprising federal, state and
local public health authorities in considering a
request for an exotic animal permit; and
D. Presenting proof of required, if any,
state or federal permits.
For the purpose of this section, to
demonstrate “sufficient knowledge” of a
species, a person must show that he has
adequate knowledge of a species to provide
for its basic needs to maintain the animal’s COTTONWOOD HEIGHTS
CODE OF ORDINANCES
8-15 Rev. 7/2011
health and welfare. The director may consider
the person’s experience, education,
apprenticeship or by examination administered by the director when determining that a
person has sufficient knowledge of a species

_______________

So my ordinance code issue, is lack of Exotics animal permit.... I have MET all conditions for said permit. In the direct, copy and pasted ordinance (found here: http://cottonwoodheights.utah.gov/do...de/title_8.pdf). Why would I not be granted said permit? No stipulation on quantity is stated or made. That is police rhetoric and blatantly untrue.

Also let's explore the definition of "Exotic Animal" as stated in the ordinance. Animal who's natural habitat is not indigenous to the lower 48....

So in essence, anyone in MY township of Cottonwood heights who owns a:

Argentina Horned toad (Argentina) to a domestic Hamster (Syria) to a Gerbil (Mongolia) to a Bearded Dragon (Asia) to an Iguana (Mexico) to a Parrot (new and old world rain forests) to a Sugar Glider (Aussie) to a Pixie Frog (Africa) to a Fire Belly Toad (China/Korea and Russia) to a Ferret (N. Africa) to a Love Bird (Africa) to a BALL PYTHON (Africa) to a Whites Tree Frog (Indonesia and Aussie) to a Chameleon (Madagascar) to ANY ANIMAL WHO'S NATURAL HABITAT IS NOT INDIGENOUS TO THE LOWER 48... is in violation... Are we truly going to believe I was the ONLY individual in the entire community that is in this violation? My animals are not a "vicious" animal, they are perfectly kept, they are maintained and healthy and they are in no way a RISK to anyone in the community... What justification, since all the criteria has been met... would I not be allowed to apply for an exotics permit, in an ordinance that I didn't know about....? Yes, negligence isn't bliss.... but, to throw me under the bus when it's a truly "un-enforced" law on nearly anyone else is foolish....

I am attempting to get said permit, which is my only ONLY limitation to owning the animals. Law is the Law.... Be careful when you "speed" throwing those rocks in your glass house. I appreciate any and all support, but anyone in my position would be reaching out for help as well. Fortunately I have a strong network, people that truly care about me and MY ANIMALS, and THEIR WELFARE.... So i'm not concerned about the outcome... I WILL fight this legislation and get a variance or modification if at all possible. I am doing this for the hobby in general.... Many people spitting hate never checked their municipalities... but, guess what? More people will now, which only strengthens our community as a whole.

Thanks for your time,

Good luck on the herp journey. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

Personally I don't think we should even have laws. Speed Limit signs should simply say, "Use Your Best Judgement". The human race can totally be trusted to police themselves.


On topic - I feel really bad for this guy, but it's the risk he took. At the end he talked about a few irresponsible keepers ruining it for everyone and he put himself in that category when he moved in with all those snakes. There's more to being a responsible pet owner than just taking good care of the animals.

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You may have been being sarcastic in your suggestion of abolishing laws and speed limits but, you actually are closer to the truth than most.
Have you heard of the 85% rule (regarding safe driving speed)?
You remove speed limits on any section of road and record the average speed driven. Then you take the lowest 85%'s maximum speed and then set and enforce that as the speed limit. This tends to invariably be higher than current maximums but, in treacherous areas the speed actually drops.
Turns out most people aren't blithering idiots with a death wish as that test reduced collisions and associated deaths, property damage etc. It just seems they are idiotic enough to think that a few mandarins full of prejudice should over rule individual property rights in a matter that affects no one outside of that property.

It seems introductory civic's classes need to be brought back. Because if "government" is the answer you are asking the wrong questions.

[deleted]

Birds are listed under the exceptions.


Did you know about the ordinance requiring a permit prior to moving in? I think you should pursue the required permit(s) as you say you're doing and take whatever steps necessary to resolve your personal situation. "Other people do it!" isn't going to get you anywhere.

I watched the video and read your response here. I believe that you take care of your snakes and I believe that you love them. I think everyone who's posted here feels that way. Have you tried putting together some kind of petition? Maybe if you go to your neighbors and have a face to face discussion with them about what the snakes mean to you, how you're prepared to make sure they don't pose a threat to the neighbors, and give them an opportunity to ask you questions, maybe you can get enough people to back you that the city will give you the permit you need and the whole thing will be resolved.

I really don't think anyone here wants to see you lose your snakes, and no one has said that you should. The general consensus is just that no one is above the law, even a fellow enthusiast.

It's not "hate" to think you should have been following the laws in the first place!

How many people rush out and buy a pet then come here going 'Gee, what kind of housing should I build?" You are NO DIFFERENT than all those who didn't plan for their pet, only your pets are at risk from officials, not from indifferent housing.

No one here has said you don't love your pets, no one said you do not take top notch care of your pets. But you knew you needed the permit, but you got the animals first, THEN you start trying to get the permit and that doesn't show you as a responsible person to the permit issuers.

"Everyone else is doing it!" is not a valid excuse. Yes, the rule is stupid. But it exists and you are breaking it and you got busted. Telling a cop who stops you doing 20 miles over the speed limit that everyone else is speeding or changing lanes without signaling does not in any way mean that you yourself were not also breaking the law.

I wish you luck, both in getting the permit and in changing the local laws(if that's what you decide to try to do). I just wish you'd gone about it in a more responsible manner to begin with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

Birds are listed under the exceptions.


Did you know about the ordinance requiring a permit prior to moving in? I think you should pursue the required permit(s) as you say you're doing and take whatever steps necessary to resolve your personal situation. "Other people do it!" isn't going to get you anywhere.

I watched the video and read your response here. I believe that you take care of your snakes and I believe that you love them. I think everyone who's posted here feels that way. Have you tried putting together some kind of petition? Maybe if you go to your neighbors and have a face to face discussion with them about what the snakes mean to you, how you're prepared to make sure they don't pose a threat to the neighbors, and give them an opportunity to ask you questions, maybe you can get enough people to back you that the city will give you the permit you need and the whole thing will be resolved.

I really don't think anyone here wants to see you lose your snakes, and no one has said that you should. The general consensus is just that no one is above the law, even a fellow enthusiast.

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Thanks for the response Brandi. I had NO idea about the permit being required. Although I stated "I was denied" it was due to statements made to me by the officers stating I can apply in the future, meaning I CANNOT now, thusly me using the word "denied" to get a permit.

I have a massive support network, I will air on Urban Jungle Radio on Monday most likely, as well as USARK as stepped forward to assist me in variance or ordinance modification. I have contact directly with a councilman somewhat familiar with the situation and requested a hearing (represented with an ordinance enforcement attorney) to attempt to aid the city in a modification or "special situation" style permit.... obviously this will be a while before anything is changed or enacted, but I believe the fact I WANT to work with city, not against it...... will bode positive outcomes for everyone and the herp community in general.

Also there are 4 news interviews I did (if anyone wants to search the Utah local networks, it's a top story). My story has gone all the way to Paris... it is now international and the herp community is taking a look at their own municipalities and ordinances... it's surprising how many are truly non compliant with the law.

As I told the councilman... a LAW is NOT selective.... it is NOT discriminatory... if you uphold the law with ONE... you must hold everyone to the same standard. Feasibly... CWH CANNOT as nearly anything non indigenous to America is an Exotic (I did correct the parrot distinction... but anything from a fire belly toad, to a beardie, to a leo to a non indigenous constrictor....) THEY ARE ALL ILLEGAL and ANYONE possessing one without a permit, in essence... should be held to my same standard. Otherwise, if laws are selective in who they admonish or punish, it is not a LAW... but an absolute abuse of power AND discrimination.

-Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

It's not "hate" to think you should have been following the laws in the first place!

How many people rush out and buy a pet then come here going 'Gee, what kind of housing should I build?" You are NO DIFFERENT than all those who didn't plan for their pet, only your pets are at risk from officials, not from indifferent housing.

No one here has said you don't love your pets, no one said you do not take top notch care of your pets. But you knew you needed the permit, but you got the animals first, THEN you start trying to get the permit and that doesn't show you as a responsible person to the permit issuers.

"Everyone else is doing it!" is not a valid excuse. Yes, the rule is stupid. But it exists and you are breaking it and you got busted. Telling a cop who stops you doing 20 miles over the speed limit that everyone else is speeding or changing lanes without signaling does not in any way mean that you yourself were not also breaking the law.

I wish you luck, both in getting the permit and in changing the local laws(if that's what you decide to try to do). I just wish you'd gone about it in a more responsible manner to begin with.

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I DID NOT know I needed a permit. Upon moving to the city... The "welcome packet" stated to have all pertinent CWH information DID NOT CONTAIN animal ordinances. I was following County regulations... It's the city I am having an issue with. Again, I was the first person to state negligence isn't bliss....

I also believe what you believed to have been the "law" as stated by the media and the interviewed officer... IT'S ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. The ordinances are stated above and no designation of any kind has been labeled hereto of "quantity". Only that the permit is needed. I don't care about the fine ($$ isn't the concern, it's the principal). Yes, I SHOULD have known... but to use me as an "example" as to CWHPD upholding the law... is drastically back firing... as more people feel a reprieve and forgiveness is more befitting vs. a crusification.

I do appreciate your comments and I understand your side, believe me. Again, a LAW cannot be selective or discriminatory into who it is enacted upon. I have also talked to all immediate neighbors in every direction (several us up in all direction) and they all said they have NO issue, NO smell and NO idea I even had animals.

I am holding an educational open house this next weekend for the neighboring community to view my animals, to learn and to educate. I'm using this as an opportunity to educate vs. intimidate.

Thanks again for the response. I hope you can view it from my side as well.

:)

Reading through some of those comments actually makes me sick. Some people have too much hate and not enough understanding. He said it perfectly, the few bad people ruin it for the rest of us. I hope everything works out for him. :/

The thing about 100% enforcement for all exotics and the fact that it simply can't be enforced, which you have now brought to NATIONAL attention, is that the easiest thing to do to bring everyone into compliance, is simply to ban ALL exotics. You're on the slippery slope now due to YOUR ignorance of the rules.

I'm pretty sure you're not a bad guy, but you are throwing everyone under the bus to save your ass. The more your harp on, paraphrasing,"don't just go after me, those guys have frogs and those guys have squirrels and those folks over there, they keep hedgehogs and none of them have permits, how come I have to just for my snakes..." the more ammunition you're giving to peta and hsus and everyone else who doesn't like reptiles or any other animals. You may well get your permit, but at what cost?

How did they find out about your snakes?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

The thing about 100% enforcement for all exotics and the fact that it simply can't be enforced, which you have now brought to NATIONAL attention, is that the easiest thing to do to bring everyone into compliance, is simply to ban ALL exotics. You're on the slippery slope now due to YOUR ignorance of the rules.

I'm pretty sure you're not a bad guy, but you are throwing everyone under the bus to save your ass. The more your harp on, paraphrasing,"don't just go after me, those guys have frogs and those guys have squirrels and those folks over there, they keep hedgehogs and none of them have permits, how come I have to just for my snakes..." the more ammunition you're giving to peta and hsus and everyone else who doesn't like reptiles or any other animals. You may well get your permit, but at what cost?

How did they find out about your snakes?

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This is a city ordinance... Not a county or state. I live in a private city, that is funded privately by it's citizens. This ordinance has NO bearing to anyone other than people in Cottonwood Heights.

I washed BRAND NEW never used, ARS big boa bins ON MY PROPERTY in my front yard on my lawn. A SINGLE neighbor contacted ordinance saying I was "growing" something. Deeming myself a proper citizen, (which I guess as others have stated "got caught", otherwise it's okay to break laws apparently), I allowed the Ordinance police in, who in turn had animal control come... who in turn stated ON RECORD to the news media that my conditions are immaculate... I didn't know I was breaking a law, so I shot myself in the foot in essence. Had I known obviously I'd have requested they get a search warrant... but I did not know.

I bet you went and checked your ordinances right? Maybe if we show can comply to law, laws can be modified... which, is what will happen in this case. There are so many "interpretations", and what it comes down to is individual interpretation. The law must be clarified so we know we are not crossing boundaries.

I've been in contact with the councilman and they are willing to work through the hurdles to "modify" any specifics needed so we all come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Again, I meet all regulations deemed necessary to be granted my permit... technically... that's all I need... It's an un-enforceable law unless you get "caught", so we will work to modify the law to allow compliance without allowing risk to humans or animals. That mighty big Oak Tree starts with a little seed.... Time to grow the tree in to something greater.

I'm a positive dude, if you can't tell. I'm also a lawful citizen... If in my city I am being "selectively" punished... that is not law... that is discrimination. Just because they can, does not mean they should. :). Well, that's my opinion anyways. Great to be an American... we're TYPICALLY allowed to have those.

~Thanks for your reply.

For future reference- the thread title refers to you as a "breeder". I can't tell if you're actually a breeder or if you're just a hobbyist. I'd suggest that if you are breeding or plan to, you look into the laws regarding home-based businesses, animal breeding/selling, etc BEFORE you produce any animals with the intent to sell to avoid something like this happening again.

I looked into the laws BEFORE I got my first snake, just so something like this wouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

For future reference- the thread title refers to you as a "breeder". I can't tell if you're actually a breeder or if you're just a hobbyist. I'd suggest that if you are breeding or plan to, you look into the laws regarding home-based businesses, animal breeding/selling, etc BEFORE you produce any animals with the intent to sell to avoid something like this happening again.

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Absolutely. If breeding for profit takes place, obviously a business license is needed. Technically, once this is ironed out... If I chose to breed for "profit" ie: sales of animals resulting in a net profit requiring state/federal taxation, the BL would be applied for. There are obvious hurdles if done in a residential "home style" scenario, so any "professional" breeding will be done in a commercial location that I will rent, which is the next option. Or I will buy a stand alone facility, whichever is deemed necessary.

It this point I am a serious HOBBYIST, but future plans are to become a breeder of amazingly unique animals, again in the proper conditions and areas needed to support such a venture. I'm a by the book dude, I follow the rules to a T and will address my violation with CWH to come to an agreed upon positive conclusion. I view problems, not as problems, but challenges. :banana:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

I looked into the laws BEFORE I got my first snake, just so something like this wouldn't happen.

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You were more prepared than most... including myself obviously.

If anything comes from this, people will learn from my mistake to insure that they are indeed in compliance with any regs. My simple infraction was lack of a "exotic permit", so all I want to do is pay the 20.00 fee and be granted it. I meet all standards and regulations and have approval from my D.V.M (who is also based 1.5 miles from my home), local breeders and supporters as well as USARK etc. I WANT to follow the rules, I don't want them to turn a blind eye. That is not my intention.... but, I want them to use "common sense" in their justification... a 20.00 permit is all that is needed.

I skimmed over this thread and it makes me sick, what some people said. Divided we fall. also as i said i skimmed since Boas are exotic and not from 50 states. IF you raised, corns.milks, kings, could you have more than one since those snakes are native to america. some of you people nit pick over the dumbest things, like the above comment about taking a lolipop from a kid, shouldnt be compared. Get real, he wasn being literal. some people. good luck Tom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BOWSER11788

I skimmed over this thread and it makes me sick, what some people said. Divided we fall. also as i said i skimmed since Boas are exotic and not from 50 states. IF you raised, corns.milks, kings, could you have more than one since those snakes are native to america. some of you people nit pick over the dumbest things, like the above comment about taking a lolipop from a kid, shouldnt be compared. Get real, he wasn being literal. some people. good luck Tom.

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Your definition of exotic is not the same as the one used out here in LaLa Land. I corn may be from the USA but it is not native to Ca and therefore, technically, requires a law abiding owner to have a valid wild animal permit. There is NO blanket rule, law or regulation regarding what permits are needed to keep exotics, non-venomous, the way we as hobbiests do. Also, bag limits, how many you're allowed to have, are in place in many cities, states, counties, what have you, that do not allow you to keep unlimited numbers of certain animals.

Perhaps a little research before you blow would help with that nasty taste of foot in mouth you're experiencing right now.

i not.. well

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Your definition of exotic is not the same as the one used out here in LaLa Land. I corn may be from the USA but it is not native to Ca and therefore, technically, requires a law abiding owner to have a valid wild animal permit. There is NO blanket rule, law or regulation regarding what permits are needed to keep exotics, non-venomous, the way we as hobbiests do. Also, bag limits, how many you're allowed to have, are in place in many cities, states, counties, what have you, that do not allow you to keep unlimited numbers of certain animals.

Perhaps a little research before you blow would help with that nasty taste of foot in mouth you're experiencing right now.

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glad you can drop statastics like that, does it make you feel good, glad it does as my question about colubrids. was serious. but what ever buddy, good talking to you, I believe you were a lovely person to talk to back when i first joined aswell. Yes i blow just over some people reacted. homeboy should checked to see if he needed anything, that is correct, but some the things said were just out of line.
I guess that big platnium supporter pic on the side, gives you the right then..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BOWSER11788

glad you can drop statastics like that, does it make you feel good, glad it does as my question about colubrids. was serious. but what ever buddy, good talking to you, I believe you were a lovely person to talk to back when i first joined aswell. Yes i blow just over some people reacted. homeboy should checked to see if he needed anything, that is correct, but some the things said were just out of line.
I guess that big platnium supporter pic on the side, gives you the right then..

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One should not type while angry.

The funny thing is... Bowser was the perpetually pissed off character in Mario Kart. I loved racing as him. I understood his pain!

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

One should not type while angry.

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Should you type when horny? Or happy? Idk when I'm supposed to type anymore!! Help me brandi :)

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Originally Posted by carlson

Should you type when horny? Or happy? Idk when I'm supposed to type anymore!! Help me brandi :)

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You should not type on this forum while horny, that's an infraction waiting to happen. When you're happy, yes, this is a good place to type.

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by BrandiR

You should not type on this forum while horny, that's an infraction waiting to happen. When you're happy, yes, this is a good place to type.

You're welcome.

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Haha ok we have the when to type situation in place now. I was worried for a min there

Anyone feeling horny and happy, feel free to PM me! :rofl: :gj:

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Originally Posted by carlson

I was worried for a min there

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No need to be worried. Shhh, cmere and let me console you, nicky.

Haha o mike you make everyone feel so safe! Thank you for bringing a ray of sun shine to a thread getting dark and butt hurt :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommyhil4_6

You were more prepared than most... including myself obviously.

If anything comes from this, people will learn from my mistake to insure that they are indeed in compliance with any regs. My simple infraction was lack of a "exotic permit", so all I want to do is pay the 20.00 fee and be granted it. I meet all standards and regulations and have approval from my D.V.M (who is also based 1.5 miles from my home), local breeders and supporters as well as USARK etc. I WANT to follow the rules, I don't want them to turn a blind eye. That is not my intention.... but, I want them to use "common sense" in their justification... a 20.00 permit is all that is needed.

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From the article, they made it seem like there was a law that prohibited the ownership of snakes, period. At least, that's what I got when I read it. If all you need is a permit to own them, but now they won't let you, that IS unfair. It would be one thing if you were ignorant of the law and had your animals poorly kept, but obviously you were recognized as having a good setup and keeping them properly AND you're trying to fix your mistake and get a permit... It seems silly and childish of officials to go "well you didn't do it before so now you can't at all". Basically, that would be saying "you can't get permits for THESE animals, but if you get rid of them, get a permit and start over then we WOULD allow it".

If you still have the packet of ordinances/laws/regulations that they gave you originally, I would bring that up as well. Not as a way for them to turn a blind eye, but to point out that you DID read up on the regulations and honestly weren't aware, but now you want to do what you need to to keep your animals.