What do you guys think of this? I need opinions ASAP!

Alright i have a friend who breeds, and he has proposed an idea to me. He is out of breeding females this year (All have either ovulated or laid) but he still has a few males he wants to breed because they are ready to go. Here is the deal he proposed to me:

I have a normal female (around 1400g) and he wants to borrow her and breed her to one of his males. He will house her in one of his racks and provide food since he breeds his own rats. I get to pick the male myself that I want to breed to her since the female is mine, and he has some niceeee males. Only under the condition that he gets first pick from the clutch, and we choose alternating eggs, depending on how many are laid (Ex: if there are 6 eggs, he gets first pick, i get second, he gets third, I get fourth, he gets fifth, i get sixth). He has given me the option that if the snakes that hatch I don't want, he will sell them for me and give me 100% of the profit. So we are pretty much splitting the clutch since it is HIS male and MY female. He gets first pick cause after all, he's the one bringing the genetics into this. Has anyone else done something like this? Just curious.

The males he has that are ready to breed are a champagne, a butter bee (butter x spider), a pastel OG, a pastel piebald, and a pewter.
If you could choose to breed one of these males to a female normal which would you choose and why?

Sounds like a good deal. However, if he is a breeder he should know that a 1400gram female should not be breed. Although it is possible for a viable clutch to be produced, it isn't very healthy for your female. I would suggest holding off till next year, for the health of your female.

Just my two cents.

I heard 1500 to 1600 grams is viable for breeding a female, but heard of 1200 grammars.

Honestly it sounds like a decent deal. But what if there is an odd number of eggs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zinger333

Sounds like a good deal. However, if he is a breeder he should know that a 1400gram female should not be breed. Although it is possible for a viable clutch to be produced, it isn't very healthy for your female. I would suggest holding off till next year, for the health of your female.

Just my two cents.

---

Thank you, the reason he wanted to do this so suddenly is that my female just went off feed. She was an eating MACHINE and then all of a sudden, nope not eating. She hasn't eaten for about 3 weeks now, and I've been offering every week. So he think she is looking for a male to breed with and "ready to go"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BPro927

I heard 1500 to 1600 grams is viable for breeding a female, but heard of 1200 grammars.

Honestly it sounds like a decent deal. But what if there is an odd number of eggs?

---

Not too worried if there is an odd number, I only have room for one more snake, and it has to be a female. So if it's not an awesome female in the clutch, I'll probably just sell all of the ones that are mine.

People have told me that females can paired as early as 1000g and if they lay they lay, if not then try again next year. I completely disagree with it, but they claim to have gotten eggs from as little as 1000g.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

People have told me that females can paired as early as 1000g and if they lay they lay, if not then try again next year. I completely disagree with it, but they claim to have gotten eggs from as little as 1000g.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

---

Yeah no way I would breed one that low. I am thinking about taking up on this deal because if she doesn't take, she doesn't take and we can try next year. So really neither one of us is losing anything from this.

I won't comment on the gram weight of the female since others have expressed their opinions on this. But if I were to do this myself, I'd choose the butter bee male hands down.

First, I love anything with butter/lesser in it. But secondly, you'd be working with both a dominant and a co-dominant gene. The clutch could yield butters, spiders, and butter bees. In fact, you'd only have a 25% chance of producing normals while you'd have a 75% chance of producing morphs. But that's just my opinion. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I won't comment on the gram weight of the female since others have expressed their opinions on this. But if I were to do this myself, I'd choose the butter bee male hands down.

First, I love anything with butter/lesser in it. But secondly, you'd be working with both a dominant and a co-dominant gene. The clutch could yield butters, spiders, and butter bees. In fact, you'd only have a 25% chance of producing normals while you'd have a 75% chance of producing morphs. But that's just my opinion. :gj:

---

See I am so torn between the butter bee and the champagne. Even if I only get 1 champagne, if it's a female I'd keep it, a male I'd sell it.

How long have you known this person? Do you know that his collection is 100% mite and disease free? Have you physically viewed his collection, snake room and husbandry skills? You do not want to give him your girl and have her returned sick or infested with mites. It could lead to further issues with your own collection.

You also want to be sure that you get your girl back when agreed and also that you can trust him with the eggs and/or sales. We have all heard about the horror stories about how someone thought the other person was their friend and it ends up a dangerous situation with the police involved.

If he is someone you 100% know and trust then I would definitely go for it!

If you even for a second doubt the trust is there then I would not risk it because look at what the end result is you are looking for: you want a female morph. For $200-$300 you could buy the exact one you want without the stress of fighting to get your snake back, dealing with a sick animal or putting your girl through an unnecessary breeding.

I would choose the butter bee or the pewter or lastly champagne and hopefully you will still get to pick a visual morph female!! I would not pick the recessives unless they fit with your specific plans as you will only get hets.

A female stopping eating is not, I repeat not a sign she's wanting to breed.
They do quite the opposite in fact, most will go on feeding terrors before breeding since they know they need the extra meals to produce nice viable eggs.
I start females breeding at that size no problem, but they are eating or they don't get started.
Also realize moving her can throw her off feed for awhile, not something you want to happen at that size.
Also quarantine takes time too. Lots to think about before just doing a breeder loan ...

That said the arrangement isn't bad if it truly is a friend who won't mess you over.
Butterbee :gj:

you said its a friend, so ill just assume it is a friend. That settles all the nonsense about how much you know or dont know that person and how much diseases his collection may or may not carry. You are friends, so you know him, WE DO NOT. That settles it. :D

and then i have no cause for concern. Just try, potentially extra eggs for free, why not? Do it. You know what a friend is and when a friend of you is also breeding snakes, you know whats going on there. Unless my definition of friend is fundamentally different from your definition of friend, you are taking no risk or low risk and if it goes wrong..... he owes you one. And will compensate later. So do it.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the weight but more on the girth of the snake. Snake that is 1500grams but is skinny doesn't necessarily mean you can still breed it. I remember talking to Brian gundy about this and he had a snake that was ready to breed and was like 1800-2000 grams, but it was skinny and was just back on feed. So in my opinion its more on the girth of the snake and how plump she is and not necessarily so much on weight.

I've been to his house and seen his collection multiple times. He is actually an ex-professor of mine at my college. He is writing up a contract today with everything that we agreed on and we both are going to sign it and both get a copy.

I've read here on the breeding FAQs that a girl should have around 500 grams for every foot, mine is just at 3 feet and 1400 grams.

Thank you guys for all of your help. I'm still mulling the idea over

I'd say go for it but get EVERYTHING in writing, signed/witnessed and notarized by both parties with each retaining a copy of the agreement. Hopefully your friendship is such it wouldn't require that but on the off chance something comes up or greed rears it's ugly head, you have a legal recourse left available to you. And I'll second the butter bee for the male, mostly because I love me some buttah, lol! Good luck and let us know how things work out, I'd be interested to see how it goes for you and what the outcome is.

If the only off spring that you would consider keeping is a morph female, then have you considered putting stipulations in the contract to cover if there is only one. For example if you use the champagne and the result is one 1.1 champagne and a few normals, then he is going to want to pick the champ girl with the first pick and that will be the only snake in the clutch you will want. That sets up a senario for disapointment and/or resentment on both sides. If beforehand you agree that you get a champ girl, but then offset the deal as needed with more than half the snakes and/or some cash going to him to ensure that the deal is even handed, you are much less likely to have hard feelings at the end. Otherwise you will have to kill the odds for everyone to be truely happy.

As to which male to go with. The Champ and butter bee would both give you pretty snakes that have good genes to breed later on. A female pastel het pied or pastel OG would both have great genetics to breed, but will not be as pretty this generation. It all depends on what you want to produce and male you will be getting in a few years to breed to the female you hope to get now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jay Mechtly

If the only off spring that you would consider keeping is a morph female, then have you considered putting stipulations in the contract to cover if there is only one. For example if you use the champagne and the result is one 1.1 champagne and a few normals, then he is going to want to pick the champ girl with the first pick and that will be the only snake in the clutch you will want. That sets up a senario for disapointment and/or resentment on both sides. If beforehand you agree that you get a champ girl, but then offset the deal as needed with more than half the snakes and/or some cash going to him to ensure that the deal is even handed, you are much less likely to have hard feelings at the end.

---

Since he's adding a $100 snake to a $500 to $600 male, he can't demand a female since he has second pick.
You roll with the punches when it comes to breeder loans especially when you bring 1/5th the value of the pairing to the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Since he's adding a $100 snake to a $500 to $600 male, he can't demand a female since he has second pick.
You roll with the punches when it comes to breeder loans especially when you bring 1/5th the value of the pairing to the table.

---

Even if he did end up with the champagne male (continuing the 1.1 champagne scenario), he could have his friend sell it and buy a female of his choice with that money. He could also ask to trade his choices in for a female of equal value from one of his friends other clutches that are in the works instead of getting cash back, since the friend will be doing the selling legwork anyway.

I'm not saying he should demand a female as his pick. I am saying that you can game plan likely senarios and agree ahead of time what the outcome will be. You can also vary from the every other pick in order to get him the one snake he really wants without upsetting the value equalibrium.

I like the idea of applying the value of his even numbered picks to the value of getting the breeders first pick or another female from a different clutch. You can easily come up with a price (allowing some range for quality) for all possible offspring and the other female snakes he is willing to sell at the time. Then after the picks are made he trades the value of his picks for an appropriately priced snake and he should probably be given the option to add cash to make the deal work if needed.

Or if the breeder wanted to roll the dice they could agree that if X female snake is produced he gets it and the breeder gets everything else no matter what.

There are a thousand different ways to arrange it. They just have to both agree that they are good with it.

Just suggesting ideas to avoid a situation where one or both is disappointed or mad. I hate the idea of just waiting until hatch day to think about how it will play out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurtilein

you said its a friend, so ill just assume it is a friend. That settles all the nonsense about how much you know or dont know that person and how much diseases his collection may or may not carry. You are friends, so you know him, WE DO NOT. That settles it. :D

---

It is amazing how often someone is called a friend before a bad breeder loan. Then they are called acquaintances or friend of a friend or person I have to take legal action against when the deal goes bad. I was simply pointing out something to consider that was not mentioned previous :)

OP: It sounds like you are on the right track with the signed contract. Just remember a contract is only a piece of paper unless you have the means to enforce it. Here is one situation I found using a quick search: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=breeding+loan

Well guys I went through on the deal. She is being paired with his butter bee. We both have a copy of the contract we agreed on.

The terms are that he gets first pick out of the clutch, I get the second, he gets the third, and so on. He will house her and care for her for two months, if signs of ovulation are obvious after two months he will hold her longer. If anything happens to her that is preventable ( husbandry issues, escape, or RI) he will pay for the entire vet bill and or provide 150$ or replace her. If something unpreventable happens, like egg binding, we split the vet bill. I will provide the food. We both have a copy and we both signed each copy.

Sounds great best of luck!!

Thank you! I actually Didn't have to mention a contract or anything. He insisted we sit down and make sure we are both getting what we want out of the deal. He said he trusts me and I know I trust him, he said it would probably make both of us feel better if we have a mutual contract that we wrote together. I'm hoping for some female butter bees or female butters now :)