Het Platty?

I know this has been discussed a few times in other posts and i have done my research and cant find the answer i am looking for. I am trying to figure out the "platty" gene thinking about future breeding projects. I have been up and down rdr birthing record page and cant find any breedings that have produced plattys from a het platty morph. Some of the pairings have het platty morphs and some don't? I cant wrap my head around it. How can normals be het platty but single gene morphs cant? Has anybody produced platty daddys from a co-dom or dom morph het for platty X lesser? or is it only normals het platty?

Anybody?

really few morphs with the "het daddy"-gene appear to exist on http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs

seems noone really figured it out so far, or if, then without good documentation. platty daddy is just lesser platinum + this weird het daddy gene. and lesser platinum is now just called lesser, and since then we found out that lesser = butter, more or less. Whats left as a gene seperate from lesser is "het daddy".

and that doesnt seem to be well-explored at all, that daddy gene.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

really few morphs with the "het daddy"-gene appear to exist on http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs

seems noone really figured it out so far, or if, then without good documentation. platty daddy is just lesser platinum + this weird het daddy gene. and lesser platinum is now just called lesser, and since then we found out that lesser = butter, more or less. Whats left as a gene seperate from lesser is "het daddy".

and that doesnt seem to be well-explored at all, that daddy gene.

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Thanks, yea I understand that it's a het gene separate from a lesser, it's just some pairings on his records page for example, like platty x pastel show pastels het platty and then others do not? Just confusing😵

If you breed a Platinum x Normal, statistically half the babies will be Lesser and the other half "normals". Everything that is normal looking from a Platinum parent is 100% het Platinum. Breed a het Platinum to any Lesser or Lesser combo and you have the potential of producing Platinums. The het Platty will ONLY react to the Lesser gene (just like Special and Mojave, and YB with Specter, Spark etc). So if you breed a het Platinum to something like a Queenbee (a breeding I'm actually doing this year) you can make Bumblebee Platinums, Spider Platinums, Pastel Platinums, Platinums, Lesser, Pastel Lessers, Queenbees, Spiders 50% het Platinum, Pastel 50% het Platinum and Bumblebees 50% het Platinum.

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

If you breed a Platinum x Normal, statistically half the babies will be Lesser and the other half "normals". Everything that is normal looking from a Platinum parent is 100% het Platinum. Breed a het Platinum to any Lesser or Lesser combo and you have the potential of producing Platinums. The het Platty will ONLY react to the Lesser gene (just like Special and Mojave, and YB with Specter, Spark etc). So if you breed a het Platinum to something like a Queenbee (a breeding I'm actually doing this year) you can make Bumblebee Platinums, Spider Platinums, Pastel Platinums, Platinums, Lesser, Pastel Lessers, Queenbees, Spiders 50% het Platinum, Pastel 50% het Platinum and Bumblebees 50% het Platinum.

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Thank you that's what I was wondering:)

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

If you breed a Platinum x Normal, statistically half the babies will be Lesser and the other half "normals". Everything that is normal looking from a Platinum parent is 100% het Platinum. Breed a het Platinum to any Lesser or Lesser combo and you have the potential of producing Platinums. The het Platty will ONLY react to the Lesser gene (just like Special and Mojave, and YB with Specter, Spark etc). So if you breed a het Platinum to something like a Queenbee (a breeding I'm actually doing this year) you can make Bumblebee Platinums, Spider Platinums, Pastel Platinums, Platinums, Lesser, Pastel Lessers, Queenbees, Spiders 50% het Platinum, Pastel 50% het Platinum and Bumblebees 50% het Platinum.

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well, the morph list at WOBP likes to hide stuff away when searching the morph list.... use the wizard http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/ and calculate special x lesser mystic, and you get "lesser crystal" and "mystic crystal".

which is what you would expect. if special interacts with mojave, of course it should interact with everything else in the BEL complex, like: lesser/butter, mystic/phantom, mocha, het russo.

so that "het daddy" gene should also do something with mojave, butter, mocha, mystic/phantom, and so on. Its just that noone has done it yet. It just strikes me as unlikely that it should interact only with lesser, especially if it reproduces like you describe it, just like a 2-gene animal with both genes in a gene complex.

http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php its also listed as part of the complex here.

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Blue Eyed Leucistic Complex:
Butter
Daddy Gene
Lesser Platinum
Mocha
Mojave
Mystic
Phantom
Russo Het Leucistic
Special

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Aaaand i think platinum is dead, because it got too confusing as people used "lesser platinum" to merely describe "lesser (or butter)". its now called "het daddy" or "daddy gene", and platty daddy = lesser het daddy. WOBP doesnt list lesser platinum anymore, only as an alternative name for lesser. and Owalreptiles says "lesser platinum" but means just the regular 1-gene lesser.


it seems to be an interesting gene, there may be opportunities to do some easy 2-gene world firsts with it, in the BEL gene complex. Unless it turns out to be identical to some other already known gene, maybe its identical to het russo or to special.


if i would have one of these het daddys, i would breed it to stuff like karma, mystic potion, super mojave, lesser mojave, just anything from the BEL complex, to look what these combos do. best case would be truly new stuff, worst case you prove it out to be identical to special or het russo. Super het daddy is also somehow absent or i just didnt find it right now, should be a quite white snake.

Here's a thread about some het daddy stuff that has been produced, including the mojave daddy and the Phantom 44.

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....addy-gene.html

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

well, the morph list at WOBP likes to hide stuff away when searching the morph list.... use the wizard http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/ and calculate special x lesser mystic, and you get "lesser crystal" and "mystic crystal".

which is what you would expect. if special interacts with mojave, of course it should interact with everything else in the BEL complex, like: lesser/butter, mystic/phantom, mocha, het russo.

so that "het daddy" gene should also do something with mojave, butter, mocha, mystic/phantom, and so on. Its just that noone has done it yet. It just strikes me as unlikely that it should interact only with lesser, especially if it reproduces like you describe it, just like a 2-gene animal with both genes in a gene complex.

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You're right, it does react to all other BEL complex animals, I was just using Lesser in that scenario.

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Originally Posted by lyfoti05

Here's a thread about some het daddy stuff that has been produced, including the mojave daddy and the Phantom 44.

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....addy-gene.html

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Thanks for that, all those were produced by normals het daddy! That was one of my questions also I can't find any platty produced from anything besides het daddy normals! If it acts like a recessive why don't we see more things produced from like a pastel het daddy for example? Everything seems to be from het daddy normals bred to something else

This confuses me :confusd:

does the gene act like a recessive and a co-dom ?

The way I understand it, it's like an invisible codom that only shows when combined with the BEL genes. Idk if that made any sense, I understand it lol.

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Originally Posted by DG76

does the gene act like a recessive and a co-dom ?

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

The way I understand it, it's like an invisible codom that only shows when combined with the BEL genes. Idk if that made any sense, I understand it lol.

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The "Daddy" gene is simply the weakest expression hetBluEL allele in the clade. It is not totally "invisible" because people (RDR included) are now beginning to be able to pick out animals based on cryptic traits that are proving to be "Daddy."

Is there a super daddy? Surely if it is in fact a part of the BEL group then it would have a super of some sort.

Yeah, at first i believed it would be something like special or het russo, like in my earlier post, but now with more pictures and the great comparison shots its clear that het daddy is weaker than any other gene in the BEL complex.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

The way I understand it, it's like an invisible codom that only shows when combined with the BEL genes. Idk if that made any sense, I understand it lol.

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this is correct.

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Is there a super daddy? Surely if it is in fact a part of the BEL group then it would have a super of some sort.

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there really should be one, and it should not be hard to produce. If you breed a lesser het daddy to lesser het daddy, you get: 25% super lesser (BEL), 50% lesser het daddy, and 25% super het daddy. In such a pairing you are guaranteed to only get 2-gene animals, and whatever offspring doesnt look like a lesser or blue eye lucy MUST be a super het daddy. (and for the minimal chance that super daddy is lethal/absent, which i dont believe since the gene is sooooo subtle, you could prove that out with the same pairing: you should then only get super lessers and lesser het daddy, with 33%/66% odds, and never get anything else).


Maybe there are so few combos with this gene on WOBP, because its too subtle to see with other genes, like for example: spider het daddy or pastel het daddy are soo subtle that the breeders have trouble distingushing it in clutches, and the guys over at worldofballpython have trouble to accept the combo because its too subtle, lost in the noise of natural variation. To get a new morph added you need to CONVINCE the people at WOBP.

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Originally Posted by interloc

Is there a super daddy? Surely if it is in fact a part of the BEL group then it would have a super of some sort.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

there really should be one, and it should not be hard to produce. If you breed a lesser het daddy to lesser het daddy, you get: 25% super lesser (BEL), 50% lesser het daddy, and 25% super het daddy. In such a pairing you are guaranteed to only get 2-gene animals, and whatever offspring doesnt look like a lesser or blue eye lucy MUST be a super het daddy. (and for the minimal chance that super daddy is lethal/absent, which i dont believe since the gene is sooooo subtle, you could prove that out with the same pairing: you should then only get super lessers and lesser het daddy, with 33%/66% odds, and never get anything else).

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Kurt, eaisier to say Platty x Platty :gj: which gives you three possible outcomes: Platty, SuperLesser and SuperDaddy

SuperDaddy has been done. RDR did it in... 2004 I think and has done it a couple times since as well. The super is phenotypically not much to look at, I dare say 99.5% of people would say it is nothing more than a normal. But like I said, weakest allele in the BluEL clade.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Kurt, eaisier to say Platty x Platty :gj: which gives you three possible outcomes: Platty, SuperLesser and SuperDaddy

SuperDaddy has been done. RDR did it in... 2004 I think and has done it a couple times since as well. The super is phenotypically not much to look at, I dare say 99.5% of people would say it is nothing more than a normal. But like I said, weakest allele in the BluEL clade.

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thanks for the info :) Then the only question that remains is why its missing from WOBP.

This thread now caused me to open a new thread that is somehow related.... a german breeder is selling 100% het black eye lucy. Makes black-eyed lucys when it hits the fire-gene. Might be a new gene or something else.

i think i wont call anything "platinum", ever. Too many people, and old sources, say "lesser platinum" and mean "lesser". Other people say "platinum" and mean "lesser het daddy". Other people say "lesser platinum", and mean "lesser het daddy". And then people say "mojave platinum" or "butter platinum", and all sense goes out of the window, until you realize they mean "mojave het daddy" or "Butter het daddy". So whenever you hear platinum, as a response you should hear: "and genetically its what?". Since everything that has ever been online will be found forever, to avoid confusion ill go the WOBP way: recognize that "platinum" is now meaningless due to logical conflicts, and strike it down. Ill allow & use "platty daddy", two words two genes, but ill probarbly just call it "lesser het daddy" ;)

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

thanks for the info :) Then the only question that remains is why its missing from WOBP.

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Short answer.... WoBP has their own agenda and you can either accept it or bugger off.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

i think i wont call anything "platinum", ever. Too many people, and old sources, say "lesser platinum" and mean "lesser". Other people say "platinum" and mean "lesser het daddy". Other people say "lesser platinum", and mean "lesser het daddy". And then people say "mojave platinum" or "butter platinum", and all sense goes out of the window, until you realize they mean "mojave het daddy" or "Butter het daddy". So whenever you hear platinum, as a response you should hear: "and genetically its what?". Since everything that has ever been online will be found forever, to avoid confusion ill go the WOBP way: recognize that "platinum" is now meaningless due to logical conflicts, and strike it down. Ill allow & use "platty daddy", two words two genes, but ill probarbly just call it "lesser het daddy" ;)

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If you know the full history of Platty it all makes sense. Read RDR's pages for the full version but in brief; Lesser Platinum is the proper name for Lessers, RDR coined it when the first clutch from PlattyDaddy hatched out because the obviously visual offspring were "less than" Platinums. But as is common for BP breeders, everyone got lazy and just started calling them Lessers. The enigma of the Daddy gene boggled so many minds that it got bastardized over the years but RDR has been pretty consistent in calling it Daddy (Like when he made the Butter version, he called them ButterDaddy) and he has taken to calling the gene carriers het Daddy. The only divergence is where he calls the PhantomDaddy "Phantom44" because they were produced in clutch 44 of that year.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

This thread now caused me to open a new thread that is somehow related.... a german breeder is selling 100% het black eye lucy. Makes black-eyed lucys when it hits the fire-gene. Might be a new gene or something else.

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I just discussed a similar occurrence on a different forum. I would bank on it being just another allele in the hetBlkEL complex. What is the phenotype of the BlkEL it makes? High/low/no-orange? That would tell you where it likely lies in the spectrum of the known hetBlkELs

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I just discussed a similar occurrence on a different forum. I would bank on it being just another allele in the hetBlkEL complex. What is the phenotype of the BlkEL it makes? High/low/no-orange? That would tell you where it likely lies in the spectrum of the known hetBlkELs

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here it is: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...acts-with-fire the thread is already in full swing.... the problem is, i already know that there are 3 other genes in the complex: sulfur, vanilla and disco, and there are also other fire-lines. The breeder is like the opposite of NERD, if it turns out to be something already known he will shift to calling it that, and if nothing happens he will just keep producing them and calling them "het black eye leucystic (M&S-line)". He named pinstripe, in the process of writing a book in which he included Brian Barczyks awesome new codominant/whatever morph, also he was one of the first customers of pinstripe and the one bringing it to europe. But he wont name his own stuff, even if its not nearly as subtle as "het daddy". He just describes what it does and whats proven about it and keeps selling it.