Immune System Breakdown: Comparing bp morphs to purebred dogs

I was having a discussion with my buddy about RI's the other day, as he is having a huge problem right now. Hes tried everything...different racks, different humidity, different beddings, etc. He even talked with some of the big breeders and entertained their suggestions. But when he mentioned that its only affecting his morphs, and that hes never had any health issues with normals/wild types, and that he thinks that selectively breeding for morphs over all these years has really weakened their immune systems, it reallly got me thinking. We also talked about when we first got into ball pythons how we started out with a normal or two, would carry them everywhere, were still learning about husbandry as we were novices, and that those BPs NEVER got an RI. It also amazes me how many of the BPs that me and my wife have rescued were in very bad environments with NO heat among other things, and should have been sick as a dog, but were totally fine! We also talked about how mutts are usually healthy and issue free, but that almost all purebred dogs have health issues....esp todays dogs. My wife has worked in pet stores for over 12 years and has never seen so many people now that have dogs with so many allergies and illnesses. Which is a reason why the pet industry is still doing so well. Weve never had any issues with RIs among our snakes, but then again our collection is only 25 animals, whereas most big breeders have hundreds. I think Im with my buddy Joe on this. I know, like with dogs, when were trying to express certain desirable genes in our snakes, animals are inbred. And I do think that it is very possible the immune systems of our snakes in the future are possibly going to be sub-par. Currently, there is over 1700 morphs out there!! And each time new colors and patterns are unlocked, what other health issues will be unlocked with them? Has anybody else with more experience and many more animals observed this? Anybody else have any other theories and/or input? Id love to hear some agreements/disgreements and why. This kind of topic has always interested me :), but Im also concerned that some our beautiful animals will be in jeopardy if some wierd crazy snake virus is discovered in the future.

I think it might have more to do with Survival of the fittest. In the hobby none of the weaker ones are picked off like they would be in the wild.

I work with dogs everyday and see what you are saying. You can see how line breeding / in breeding are turning some of the breeds into jokes.
It's sad to see a young German Shepard with a huge slant in his back and bad hips. The Lab and Goldens with eyes to close together or to far apart. Bad skin, bad ears, can't leave the room without them freaking out.
Then you see a perfect example of a breed and they are fixed.

I don't know if line breeding or in breeding would affect reptiles in the same way. I wouldn't think it helps.

Could it be that a lot of big breeders have very strict guidelines for housing and care, so when the animal goes to its new home and has a drastic change in temps, humidity, housing, substrate, and cleanliness it could cause the animal to come down with a sickness quicker? Compared to say a farm bred normal who isn't kept in the best conditions so it builds up a stronger immune system?

This is of course complete speculation and just thinking out loud.

Keepers these days also seem to offer up higher and higher humidity "rules" to newbies. I keep my animals between 35-55% humidity (winter is rough). Although I occasionally have less-than-perfect sheds, I have never had an RI without other extenuating circumstances (and only two total). Moisture and heat breed bacteria, and I shudder when I see people recommending 70% and higher humidities for new keepers, as well as placing water bowls over/under heat sources (petri dish, much?). We also keep BPs in smaller enclosures, generally, which leads to even more bacteria-ridden environments if they are not cleaned and disinfected regularly (they used to be able to go to the other end of a behemoth tank). This is not to imply that your friend's issues stem here, just food for thought.

Makes sense to me. Look at Spiders and their "spin-offs". Caramel Albinos, too. I knew a guy almost 15 years ago who took his normal everywhere he went, weather permitting, of course. He took it in the car, on walks, other peoples homes, you name it! Never a single, solitary issue! "RI" issues are a dime a dozen, these days, it seems. A cool "paint job" doesn't make inbreeding ok, in my book. I love how many people preach that BPs aren't "display" animals, either, yet strive for the most fantastic colors and patterns imaginable. Hypocrisy, much? Now, I'd love a Clown, Pied, or even a Super Pastel as much as the next guy, but the unknown possible underlying health anomalies are always a factor for me. Scares me to death thinking about spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a snake to just turn around and be at the Vet on a regular basis. I'm a firm believer that sometimes less IS more. :twocents:

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

I think it might have more to do with Survival of the fittest. In the hobby none of the weaker ones are picked off like they would be in the wild.

I work with dogs everyday and see what you are saying. You can see how line breeding / in breeding are turning some of the breeds into jokes.
It's sad to see a young German Shepard with a huge slant in his back and bad hips. The Lab and Goldens with eyes to close together or to far apart. Bad skin, bad ears, can't leave the room without them freaking out.
Then you see a perfect example of a breed and they are fixed.

I don't know if line breeding or in breeding would affect reptiles in the same way. I wouldn't think it helps.

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Augh american german shepherds get quite deformed... the Czech and german lines hold great form since its breed standard to be able to work and they need to get sch titles.

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reputable breeders take measures to reduce inbreeding.

like, for example, when a big-time breeder has 5 super cinnamons and one or two are getting old, a way to get a new one would be: get 2 new normal BPs directly out of africa or from a completely different breeder, breed these to two of the super cinnys. now you have 2 clutches of cinnamon that are distantly related, breed these together to get super cinnys, add the nicest ones to the collection, sell off the cinnys and normals.

of course inbreeding can impact overall health, but fortunately outbreeding is easy with BPs, so solving the problem is easy for bigger breeders.

if you have a line of german shepherds you cannot just get a wild grey wolf out of europe, outbreed to the wolf, and get back a german shepherd with some fresh wolf genetics 1 generation later. But with BPs you can do just that.

and: picking out the weakest can and should be done with BPs, in reverse: pick out only the strongest for breeding.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

as well as placing water bowls over/under heat sources (petri dish, much?)

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X2 yuck

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

X2 yuck

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I do this during shedding, never had an RI or a bad shed. My animals are well taken care of, not to say the friend doesn't, but to come up with a genetic deficiency to explain it? Perhaps that could be it, or it could be many other things. Occam's razor, it's probably not genetic.

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

Augh american german shepherds get quite deformed... the Czech and german lines hold great form since its breed standard to be able to work and they need to get sch titles.

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in central europe german shepherds have such a large population, its easy to breed healthy ones.

one key method should be adopted for BPs as well, and many breeders already do it, that is the paperwork. at least for the breeding animals, even if many breeders are involved, you know the parents, grandparents, which breeders produced the grandparents, sometimes it goes back many generations. And for breeding you pick two individuals that are healthy, where the siblings are also healthy, you compare the paperwork, there should be no matches when tracking it back a few generations. and now you have a breeding pair and can sell at top price, to the government, to hunters, to facilities that train assist-dogs for blind and disabled people, because you have the paperwork to prove that you are producing excellence. Its the same with race horses, they have family trees going back many generations.

today with a computer and a digital camera and a card that follows each snake in the collection, its easy to do excellent documentation. Many breeders already do an excellent job and lots of information can be requested. Im in europe, and if i would be a professional breeder (i am not) and if i would decide to start breeding clowns, an easy way to produce large numbers without inbreeding would be: i buy 3 female clowns, potentially with other morphs going on, in europe, try to get as much paperwork as possible. Then i buy a male clown with excellent paperwork going back at least 2 generations from the USA. Its really easy for big breeders.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

placing water bowls over/under heat sources (petri dish, much?).

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I have to do this to get the humidity up to 40%, but I also clean the bowls out every night.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

I have to do this to get the humidity up to 40%, but I also clean the bowls out every night.

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Makes sense to me. Most people don't clean that often.

I obviously don't have nearly as many snakes as some keepers, but out of 17 balls, the only one I've had get sick is my only straight normal.

I have MANY ball pythons and no normals at this point (except hets). I have to think very hard to remember my last RI. It was probably 7+ years ago. I used to breed my males more often and would get an occasional RI by the end of breeding season. I now use more males and breed them less often.

Bp morphs to Purebred dogs is apples to oranges.

Morphs have the same number of chromosomes as their wild counterparts. Other than the paint job, they're genetically the same.

Its just some morphs that have heritable issues such as the spider wobble, which doesn't get selected against and the reason why they're still here. But then again, the first spider was an import. The wobble is attached to the spider gene.

And inbreeding occurs often in the wild. I'm not saying its good, it just makes the population have a higher homozygosity.

Sometimes it negatively impacts populations (cheetahs), while sometimes it has no effect and even sometimes is positive (elephant seals).
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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

in central europe german shepherds have such a large population, its easy to breed healthy ones.

one key method should be adopted for BPs as well, and many breeders already do it, that is the paperwork. at least for the breeding animals, even if many breeders are involved, you know the parents, grandparents, which breeders produced the grandparents, sometimes it goes back many generations. And for breeding you pick two individuals that are healthy, where the siblings are also healthy, you compare the paperwork, there should be no matches when tracking it back a few generations. and now you have a breeding pair and can sell at top price, to the government, to hunters, to facilities that train assist-dogs for blind and disabled people, because you have the paperwork to prove that you are producing excellence. Its the same with race horses, they have family trees going back many generations.

today with a computer and a digital camera and a card that follows each snake in the collection, its easy to do excellent documentation. Many breeders already do an excellent job and lots of information can be requested. Im in europe, and if i would be a professional breeder (i am not) and if i would decide to start breeding clowns, an easy way to produce large numbers without inbreeding would be: i buy 3 female clowns, potentially with other morphs going on, in europe, try to get as much paperwork as possible. Then i buy a male clown with excellent paperwork going back at least 2 generations from the USA. Its really easy for big breeders.

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The german Shepherd issue is not about population. It's about standards. The AKC requires form only while the Europeans require the german Shepherd to be functional as well by attaining a schutzhund title. An american german shepherd with an overemphasis on the slanted back and just exaggerated conformation standards defeats the purpose of the actual breed, which is a utility dog. I can't say which line works bettee but I've heard the dogs with exaggerated bodies do not work as efficently.

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The AKC is screwing up a lot of the breeds.

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

The german Shepherd issue is not about population. It's about standards. The AKC requires form only while the Europeans require the german Shepherd to be functional as well by attaining a schutzhund title. An american german shepherd with an overemphasis on the slanted back and just exaggerated conformation standards defeats the purpose of the actual breed, which is a utility dog. I can't say which line works bettee but I've heard the dogs with exaggerated bodies do not work as efficently.

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Actually for german shepherds in Germany the most important things are play and self-control. For a drug or cash sniffing dog, a dog that gets exhausted after 2 hours of playing can only "work" for 2 hours at a time. For any sniffing dog, work is play, cannot be seperated, and german shepherds are the breed that can work maximum hours, even while their scenting power is not the best, because they are bred for play and activity. And then the same breed is also used as assistance dogs for blind and disabled people, here self-control is important. So there is a demand for these dogs, and the price is between 1000 and 2000 euros. Optics are a standard, a side-effect, they are bred for character and play and physical endurance. A quality-bred german shepherd will require 3 times more attention compared to an average dog, but will exhibit above average trainability and intelligence. These are not pets but working dogs, can be pets only for people that really have a lot of time.


but, back to BPs, the royal python really is a lethargic snake, no doubt about it. Or what do you think, compared to other snakes / pets? BPs tend to be incredibly relaxed.

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

The AKC is screwing up a lot of the breeds.

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I agree.
Lots of breeds look so different than their original form.

Ok good input so far guys, thanks. But some just a hair off topic....esp all the German Shepherd stuff. Truthfully, I was inquiring about their immune systems. It just seems to me, like dogs today, being selected and bred for certain traits, ball python morphs today and in the future might seem to develop immune problems more readily, and be more susceptible to illness. Especially considering more and more focus is being put on super forms, and triple, quad, and quint gene animals. And my friend is def not a newbie. Weve been breeding snakes for 10+ years, and hes been doing it much longer than we have. I told him I personally think its the room. there may be mold in the walls he cant see, or something like that. Hes considering that possibility. But anyways, really I love all the gorgeous colors and awesome possibilities of all the 4-5-6 gene animals...they are simply stunning and amazing! But Im also concerned that they wont be as healthy, or hardy as some of the older morphs and wild types.

* side note: barbie.dragon, my wife loves your avatar! he/she is a cutie!

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Originally Posted by mechnut450

Ok good input so far guys, thanks. But some just a hair off topic....esp all the German Shepherd stuff. Truthfully, I was inquiring about their immune systems. It just seems to me, like dogs today, being selected and bred for certain traits, ball python morphs today and in the future might seem to develop immune problems more readily, and be more susceptible to illness. Especially considering more and more focus is being put on super forms, and triple, quad, and quint gene animals. And my friend is def not a newbie. Weve been breeding snakes for 10+ years, and hes been doing it much longer than we have. I told him I personally think its the room. there may be mold in the walls he cant see, or something like that. Hes considering that possibility. But anyways, really I love all the gorgeous colors and awesome possibilities of all the 4-5-6 gene animals...they are simply stunning and amazing! But Im also concerned that they wont be as healthy, or hardy as some of the older morphs and wild types.

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Reputable breeders keep inbreeding to a minimum. Most BP genes are totally free of health issues. And the ones that cause issues, well, these are known: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php . But the link is a bit outdated, banana and coral glow appear to sit on a sex chromosome and do not impact health at all, and some strains of cinnamon and black pastell produce very nice super-forms that do not have an issue.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I agree.
Lots of breeds look so different than their original form.

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Look up Terrierman's Daily Dose and Pedigree Dogs Exposed - both the blog and the documentary. The AKC and the KC - along with people who breed dogs to aesthetic standards are ruining dogs and causing a lot of heartache and pain.

We lost a doberman to VWD two years ago and were aghast to find out what percentage of the dogs carry the gene. When researching the genetic disease rates for purebred dogs, do so with a strong stomach.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Look up Terrierman's Daily Dose and Pedigree Dogs Exposed - both the blog and the documentary. The AKC and the KC - along with people who breed dogs to aesthetic standards are ruining dogs and causing a lot of heartache and pain.

We lost a doberman to VWD two years ago and were aghast to find out what percentage of the dogs carry the gene. When researching the genetic disease rates for purebred dogs, do so with a strong stomach.

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Ugh, i just watched it. Its on youtube,"BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed - full movie in good quality", link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMegQH1SPg

im positive that this can be avoided in ball pythons.

I have a feeling some people are missing some key points on breeding snakes. In my 20+ years of keeping and breeding snakes, I have never had a ball python with RI. Not one.....and I have a lot of morphs....and quite a few inbred morphs. There is the notion that inbreeding is dangerous to snakes and should only be done two or three generations at most. The fact of the matter is snakes are non-migratory in nature. They always choose the exact same location for brumation....unless relocated. So when you see snakes using the same sites year after year after year, you have severe inbreeding. It is how locale phenotypes are created. To some specific keepers, outbreeding to other locales is a big no no. I'm not saying it's the end all be all, but you can't discredit breeders, specifically "big breeders", for inbreeding. Any of the big names that tell you they don't inbreed are flat out lying. It is how new genes are discovered whether good or bad. Mammals are another story. I am not saying you shouldn't add new blood into a project, so please think about what I'm trying to convey.

As for bad genes, it takes a few years to test. For example, with Caramel the kinking was thought to be from inbreeding. Turns out it is just something that comes with the morph whether inbred or not. Same goes for Spiders, Cinny, BP.....and I'm sure the list goes on.

I'm sure I'll get some heat on this post and if so, I'll try to elaborate more when I haven't bee awake for 20 hours. :gj: Until then, think about the genetics of the problem morphs we have seen.

For the original post, I would recommend a bacterial culture be done on a few animals to see if there is an underlying problem within the collection. Again, I have never once had a ball python with RI. Good luck and keep us posted.

thanks Brandon Osborne! That was the best yet. Very useful info that ive never thought about.....esp the migratory thing. And I will def pass along that info on the bacteria test to my buddy. :gj:

Yes, I'm not thinking we have been breeding ball pythons long enough to see anything like breeds in dogs. More inclined to think he picked up a nasty bug, maybe came in with some morphs? Knock on wood but I've been able to avoid RI in ball pythons. I suspect with larger collections it gets harder and harder to keep things like that out. Years ago I'd heard that most all big breeders have had at least one mass die off. Maybe the answer for large collections is to compartmentalize and somehow split them into completely separated smaller collections. That would defeat a lot of the economies of scale though.

I can't really say anything about snakes, because I am new to the different morphs of ball python... but in regards to dogs...

My whole live I've only ever had mutts. Most of my family and friends have only ever had mutts. There have only been a couple purebred dogs here and there that I've known. NOT ONE SINGLE mutt I've known has been healthy. At least half of them have had some kind of hip or elbow problem, most of them have had allergy issues, some of them have had mental issues, etc. My uncle has some purebred Basset Hounds, and I haven't heard of any issues he's had with them. My aunt had a purebred Dalmatian who had issues, but he also contracted parvo as a pup which contributed to some of those issues (mutts get parvo too, though). When I was a child my neighbor had a purebred Dachshund, and as far as I could remember he was healthy as can be up until he became an old little dog. Then one day he slipped a disk and had to be put to sleep (something I understand happens to Dachshunds and other long-backed breeds, but with this dog it didn't happen until he was OLD). A ranch I worked at had a purebred cattle dog, and I can't remember any health issues that dog ever had.

Not saying purebreds are better than mutts, just saying there's an awful lot of sick mutts out there too.

The problem is HOW the animal is bred. The problem with mutts is not that health problems are being selected for because they are associated with the desired traits, BUT they are inheriting issues from their purebred ancestors. Where a German Shepherd may have hip problems and a Collie has eye problems, a cross between those two breeds might end up inheriting BOTH issues. Doesn't always happen that way, but my experience tells me it happens a fair amount, but it seems in general people don't acknowledge it, instead focusing on the issues purebreds have because "everyone" knows purebreds are unhealthy.

I think in the end, the animals are only as good as the breeders who produce them. In a natural setting where generations and generations of random breeding take place, nature will select for the strongest. The "strongest" only means those who are best suited for the environment they live in, it really is not a single standard. What is a deleterious trait in one environment, may actually be an advantageous trait in another environment. For example... sickle cell anemia in humans, actually advantageous for those individuals who live in areas where malaria is common. The problem with captive breeding programs is that humans make the selection, and humans have a tendency to look at what they consider "pretty", "attractive", or otherwise "beneficial". There is a tendency to ignore the long term effects of these selections, and that can result in serious ramifications for health, whether the animal is purebred, wild type, or a mutt.

Thanks for all the insights guys. I saw my friend today, and I am hoping he can work the RI thing out. And I think maybe it isn't a breakdown of their immune systems after all, but its def something that will always stick in the back of my mind.:yes:

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

Reputable breeders keep inbreeding to a minimum. Most BP genes are totally free of health issues. And the ones that cause issues, well, these are known: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php . But the link is a bit outdated, banana and coral glow appear to sit on a sex chromosome and do not impact health at all, and some strains of cinnamon and black pastell produce very nice super-forms that do not have an issue.

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What is outdated? banana/cg does not fit the definition of sex-linked, the anomaly makes it fall out of that definition? It is never stated that all have issues, but many do.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I can't really say anything about snakes, because I am new to the different morphs of ball python... but in regards to dogs...

My whole live I've only ever had mutts. Most of my family and friends have only ever had mutts. There have only been a couple purebred dogs here and there that I've known. NOT ONE SINGLE mutt I've known has been healthy. At least half of them have had some kind of hip or elbow problem, most of them have had allergy issues, some of them have had mental issues, etc. My uncle has some purebred Basset Hounds, and I haven't heard of any issues he's had with them. My aunt had a purebred Dalmatian who had issues, but he also contracted parvo as a pup which contributed to some of those issues (mutts get parvo too, though). When I was a child my neighbor had a purebred Dachshund, and as far as I could remember he was healthy as can be up until he became an old little dog. Then one day he slipped a disk and had to be put to sleep (something I understand happens to Dachshunds and other long-backed breeds, but with this dog it didn't happen until he was OLD). A ranch I worked at had a purebred cattle dog, and I can't remember any health issues that dog ever had.

Not saying purebreds are better than mutts, just saying there's an awful lot of sick mutts out there too.

The problem is HOW the animal is bred. The problem with mutts is not that health problems are being selected for because they are associated with the desired traits, BUT they are inheriting issues from their purebred ancestors. Where a German Shepherd may have hip problems and a Collie has eye problems, a cross between those two breeds might end up inheriting BOTH issues. Doesn't always happen that way, but my experience tells me it happens a fair amount, but it seems in general people don't acknowledge it, instead focusing on the issues purebreds have because "everyone" knows purebreds are unhealthy.

I think in the end, the animals are only as good as the breeders who produce them. In a natural setting where generations and generations of random breeding take place, nature will select for the strongest. The "strongest" only means those who are best suited for the environment they live in, it really is not a single standard. What is a deleterious trait in one environment, may actually be an advantageous trait in another environment. For example... sickle cell anemia in humans, actually advantageous for those individuals who live in areas where malaria is common. The problem with captive breeding programs is that humans make the selection, and humans have a tendency to look at what they consider "pretty", "attractive", or otherwise "beneficial". There is a tendency to ignore the long term effects of these selections, and that can result in serious ramifications for health, whether the animal is purebred, wild type, or a mutt.

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THANK YOU!! After a decade of experience in vet clinics, I have become rather sick of hearing how much healthier mutts are than purebreds. It all comes down to the genetics that go into each animal, for good or ill. The difference? People know Boxers are prone to skin growths and Dobermans can die from anesthesia. People don't know if their Boxer/Doberman/shepherd/lab mix has the potential for hip problems, skin problems, allergies, and/or hypertension (neither the worst of all the ingredients or the best of all ingredients is guaranteed).

The reasons why purebred dogs are rife with genetic issues is less a line breeding issue and more of the fact that once breed types were established and set, registrations were closed. Then things became even more muddled when that limited pool was narrowed down to define the breeds by the aesthetic fads of the day.

There are several blogs and sites that go deeper into this issue - Terrierman's Daily Dose, Retrieverman, Border (Collie) Wars and Pedigree Dogs Exposed are but a few. It's a more complex issue than linebreeding. You have to look at how breeds have evolved over the last century and how that evolution has been dictated by interpretations of the breed standard. A newfoundland today does not look like the newfie of 100 years ago, nor does the boxer, the poodle, the pug, the shar pei, the peke, etc. etc.

When you start breeding english bulldogs in such a way that you exaggerate the underbite, accentuate the bow legged walk and increase the severity of brachycephalia - when you take the neopalitan mastiff and accentuated the hippo gait or the skin folds - you end up with the genetic messes that are currently being bred. You are programming the breed to have heat related respiratory issues, skin fold infections, elbow, knee and hip dysplasia and entropion/ectropion. Again, instead of offering opinions, read the data, watch the Pedigree Dogs Exposed video, and then comment.

We do the same with snakes. When you selectively breed for an aesthetic, you are narrowing down the diversity of the gene pool and you take into account all the health risks that come with that specific aesthetic. When the starter stock of antaresia spp. were first smuggled out of Australia and into the States, no one knew the localities of the smuggled animals and several breeders admitted to not knowing how to tell apart a stimsons and a childrens. Yet today, in the States we have people claiming to be breeding locality antaresia...................what?

Same with drymarchon - people are now breeding lines based on aesthetics instead of locality. When you breed for aesthetics, you are introducing a whole set of risks into a group of animals. You are potentially sacrificing health for looks. It's more than a linebreeding issue.......it's an issue even narrower than that.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The reasons why purebred dogs are rife with genetic issues is less a line breeding issue and more of the fact that once breed types were established and set, registrations were closed. Then things became even more muddled when that limited pool was narrowed down to define the breeds by the aesthetic fads of the day.

There are several blogs and sites that go deeper into this issue - Terrierman's Daily Dose, Retrieverman, Border (Collie) Wars and Pedigree Dogs Exposed are but a few. It's a more complex issue than linebreeding. You have to look at how breeds have evolved over the last century and how that evolution has been dictated by interpretations of the breed standard. A newfoundland today does not look like the newfie of 100 years ago, nor does the boxer, the poodle, the pug, the shar pei, the peke, etc. etc.

When you start breeding english bulldogs in such a way that you exaggerate the underbite, accentuate the bow legged walk and increase the severity of brachycephalia - when you take the neopalitan mastiff and accentuated the hippo gait or the skin folds - you end up with the genetic messes that are currently being bred. You are programming the breed to have heat related respiratory issues, skin fold infections, elbow, knee and hip dysplasia and entropion/ectropion. Again, instead of offering opinions, read the data, watch the Pedigree Dogs Exposed video, and then comment.

We do the same with snakes. When you selectively breed for an aesthetic, you are narrowing down the diversity of the gene pool and you take into account all the health risks that come with that specific aesthetic. When the starter stock of antaresia spp. were first smuggled out of Australia and into the States, no one knew the localities of the smuggled animals and several breeders admitted to not knowing how to tell apart a stimsons and a childrens. Yet today, in the States we have people claiming to be breeding locality antaresia...................what?

Same with drymarchon - people are now breeding lines based on aesthetics instead of locality. When you breed for aesthetics, you are introducing a whole set of risks into a group of animals. You are potentially sacrificing health for looks. It's more than a linebreeding issue.......it's an issue even narrower than that.

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Excellent post. I have experience in the drymarchon world and the eastern indigo has been done a great disservice in my opinion by trait breeding. (Best redthroats, etc.)
I will follow that by saying i know many who see the issues and taking steps, the best they can, to correct the issue.
Anyway thanks for that post.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

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We do the same with snakes. When you selectively breed for an aesthetic, you are narrowing down the diversity of the gene pool and you take into account all the health risks that come with that specific aesthetic. When the starter stock of antaresia spp. were first smuggled out of Australia and into the States, no one knew the localities of the smuggled animals and several breeders admitted to not knowing how to tell apart a stimsons and a childrens. Yet today, in the States we have people claiming to be breeding locality antaresia...................what?

Same with drymarchon - people are now breeding lines based on aesthetics instead of locality. When you breed for aesthetics, you are introducing a whole set of risks into a group of animals. You are potentially sacrificing health for looks. It's more than a linebreeding issue.......it's an issue even narrower than that.

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Well said, Skip!! Well said!!! :clap:

He may want to double check his environment. There seems to be missing information in this situation, such as his location, where the snakes are kept, what kind of solvents does he use for cleaning etc. don't just rule genetics, so far he has an isolated case. He may also want to check his suppliers. If his suppliers are different then it's his environment.

Skip - what is your profession? No need to answer if you don't want.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Skip - what is your profession? No need to answer if you don't want.

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I'm a proctologist. I used to be wandering phlebotomist, but proctology has always been a passion of mine.

As I always say - do what you love.

lol, how many google searches do you think you just prompted?

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Originally Posted by MrLang

lol, how many google searches do you think you just prompted?

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If you and I ever meet, I will give you a free exam.

Out of my three partners in practice - Dr. Fistings, Dr. Piles and Dr. Fingerdeep - I am easily the most requested.

We had to do these stupid "Career Goals" papers in one of my HS classes and I put down Proctologist Fortune Teller. Haha

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Skip - what is your profession? No need to answer if you don't want.

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Idk what he does now but i know that back in the day he was a heavy machine operator. Just read his biography. :gj:

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

The AKC is screwing up a lot of the breeds.

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Just to note, it's not the AKC screwing up the breeds. The AKC is a registry and an advocate of purebred dogs. The standards accepted into the AKC are actually set by each breed's parent club. Each breed's parent club is made up of members, some of whom are influential judges and breeders and handlers in each breed. When judges put up "trendy" dogs instead of those that adhere to the standard, or award "favor" wins to handlers & breeders, those trends are sometimes taken back to the parent club and actually voted upon as proposed standard changes. Responsibility for the overall heath and well-being of each breed should start with the parent club.

As far as ball pythons go, I think the prevalence of RI or other diseases has more to do with husbandry issues than they do with any sort of inbreeding depression related to color mutations. Mites, stagnantly humid air, cross-contamination and other stressful factors can pack quite a punch...IMO it shows up more in morphs because that is what folks are focused on breeding.

$.02...

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Originally Posted by Kara

Just to note, it's not the AKC screwing up the breeds. The AKC is a registry and an advocate of purebred dogs. The standards accepted into the AKC are actually set by each breed's parent club. Each breed's parent club is made up of members, some of whom are influential judges and breeders and handlers in each breed. When judges put up "trendy" dogs instead of those that adhere to the standard, or award "favor" wins to handlers & breeders, those trends are sometimes taken back to the parent club and actually voted upon as proposed standard changes. Responsibility for the overall heath and well-being of each breed should start with the parent club.

As far as ball pythons go, I think the prevalence of RI or other diseases has more to do with husbandry issues than they do with any sort of inbreeding depression related to color mutations. Mites, stagnantly humid air, cross-contamination and other stressful factors can pack quite a punch...IMO it shows up more in morphs because that is what folks are focused on breeding.

$.02...

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Bah................it's all because a couple of idiots advocate keeping their snakes on pine bedding, feeding them in their enclosures, do not use belly heat and keep their snakes in glass cages with screen tops. Right Kara? ;)

The problem with the major Kennel clubs is that they are closed registries that do not take adequate steps to prevent fadists from hijacking breeds from functionality to frivolity. As you state, this does not mean that they are screwing up the breeds - just that they do not do enough to stop judges and breeders from screwing them up.

There are some breeds, such as dalmations, flat coated retrievers, rhodesian ridgebacks, etc. which are so rife with genetic illnesses that they have become an accepted part of owning such breeds. With rhodesian ridgebacks, the mutation that is their ridge is actually connected with dermoid sinus (a mild form of spina bifida).

It may surprise some that a percentage of ridgeback are born without a ridge. If you are surprised, don't feel bad - since ridgeless ridgebacks don't fit the breed standard, those puppies are usually culled.

So, by promoting a mutation that is actually a form of a genetic disease, and by supporting a breed standard that prohibits the poodle and pug crowd from making any money off of a ridgeless ridgeback, these dogs are purposefully bred in such a way that propagates a known health issue.

The closed registry problem is a different issue, and I won't go into it here. Let's just say that in clubs with open registries, and clubs that promote functionality over form, these genetic health issues are more effectively dealt with.

We already know that there are mutations in the ball python world that are apparent markers for health issues - such as the spiders and the wobbles and the female deserts and their fertility/potential binding issues. I'll make a bold prediction that before Mike41793's nuts drop, we will be made aware of even more mutations that carry with them health issues.

I would like to point out that Ridgebacks are actually an extremely stout and healthy breed. The only serious issue they have is dermoid sinus which is easily detected and fixed with a quick surgery and is actually very rare.
I own a Ridgeback and am an advocate for the breed. Many breeders whom I associate with do Stud Trades and are constantly introducing African bloodlines back into the American bloodlines. (Which all originated from africa)
Your point is not lost though. Dalmations, Dobermans, GSPs, etc. Have had alot of issues. This is from breeders not outcrossing. Or even doing breeder loans. Line breeding is probably the single biggest issue with Dogs. That includes culling ridgeless ridgebacks. Alot, if not all, of he breeders in the SD area adopt out ridgeless ridgebacks. There are plenty of them and they look awesome and are great dogs. I wanted a Ridge so I got mine from a breeder who I know constantly trades out males and gets fresh males from Africa to insure new blood.


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Bah................it's all because a couple of idiots advocate keeping their snakes on pine bedding, feeding them in their enclosures, do not use belly heat and keep their snakes in glass cages with screen tops. Right Kara? ;)

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ROFL!! I can't believe you left out hot rocks!! Where are the hot rocks?!?! In all seriousness though, "user error" does play a big part. Not to say that there aren't specific morphs with health issues - that's a known fact. I just don't think it's a widespread, across the board, "morphs are more prone to illness because they're morphs" kinda thing. But hey, I don't even keep ball pythons anymore, so take it with a grain of salt. :D

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The problem with the major Kennel clubs is that they are closed registries that do not take adequate steps to prevent fadists from hijacking breeds from functionality to frivolity. As you state, this does not mean that they are screwing up the breeds - just that they do not do enough to stop judges and breeders from screwing them up.

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Agreed - I would like to see the parent clubs held to a more rigid set of expectations by the AKC, but until those parent clubs demand registry changes that will allow the improvement of their respective breeds, we're in for more of the same old same old. I believe that ultimately the responsibility lies more heavily upon the parent clubs than the nat'l registry...but that's another discussion entirely. ;)

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Originally Posted by Jesse Hermanson

I would like to point out that Ridgebacks are actually an extremely stout and healthy breed. The only serious issue they have is dermoid sinus which is easily detected and fixed with a quick surgery and is actually very rare.
I own a Ridgeback and am an advocate for the breed. Many breeders whom I associate with do Stud Trades and are constantly introducing African bloodlines back into the American bloodlines. (Which all originated from africa)
Your point is not lost though. Dalmations, Dobermans, GSPs, etc. Have had alot of issues. This is from breeders not outcrossing. Or even doing breeder loans. Line breeding is probably the single biggest issue with Dogs. That includes culling ridgeless ridgebacks. Alot, if not all, of he breeders in the SD area adopt out ridgeless ridgebacks. There are plenty of them and they look awesome and are great dogs. I wanted a Ridge so I got mine from a breeder who I know constantly trades out males and gets fresh males from Africa to insure new blood.


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My parents have lost three ridgebacks to cancer over the last 12 years. None of the dogs ever made it past 8 years of age. All three came from different breeders. First one died at 6. The second female died at 8 and the first female also died at 6.

Either they have really crappy luck, or there are issues in this breed.

We also have some friends who live in Poway (your neck of the woods?) who lost their first ridgeback, Enzo, to cancer and their second ridgeback Kobe to a heart condition. I need to check and see if their third ridgeback (Kali) is still alive.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

My parents have lost three ridgebacks to cancer over the last 12 years. None of the dogs ever made it past 8 years of age. All three came from different breeders. First one died at 6. The second female died at 8 and the first female also died at 6.

Either they have really crappy luck, or there are issues in this breed.

We also have some friends who live in Poway (your neck of the woods?) who lost their first ridgeback, Enzo, to cancer and their second ridgeback Kobe to a heart condition. I need to check and see if their third ridgeback (Kali) is still alive.

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That is very close to me. That is really sad. I personally believe cancer has to do with dog food but I cannot prove any of that. My Dobermans had many many more issues than my ridgeback and the ones I know. It may just be my circle of friends who have had good luck.

No matter what, it is important to make sure to introduce unrelated dogs/snakes into collections for new blood. No matter what if you keep and breed your own stock, without adding new blood frequently you are hurting the gene pool.
Dog breeding in general has alot of issues. It takes alot of dogs to make a certain breed so the genes SHOULD be strong. Line breeding or sticking with ones own stock ends up bringing out any genetic issues that may have been hidden.

Anyway, great posts all around. You have alot of good info in them. And I agree with them. In my personal experience I have seen Ridgebacks that are very hearty and healthy. But I cannot base the entire population on that I guess.
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Originally Posted by Jesse Hermanson

That is very close to me. That is really sad. I personally believe cancer has to do with dog food but I cannot prove any of that. My Dobermans had many many more issues than my ridgeback and the ones I know. It may just be my circle of friends who have had good luck.

No matter what, it is important to make sure to introduce unrelated dogs/snakes into collections for new blood. No matter what if you keep and breed your own stock, without adding new blood frequently you are hurting the gene pool.
Dog breeding in general has alot of issues. It takes alot of dogs to make a certain breed so the genes SHOULD be strong. Line breeding or sticking with ones own stock ends up bringing out any genetic issues that may have been hidden.

Anyway, great posts all around. You have alot of good info in them. And I agree with them. In my personal experience I have seen Ridgebacks that are very hearty and healthy. But I cannot base the entire population on that I guess.
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I hear you - we had a staffie bull that we just had to have put down - dog made it to 16. His mother died when she was 17.........but I know plenty of people with staffie bulls who's dogs have mast cell tumor issues and lose their dogs to cancer fairly early...........

Speaking about Doberman Pinschers, I still think the AKC is really ruining a lot of these dogs.

They consider it completely ethical to breed an INFECTED vWD dog, as long as it is bred to a non-carrier. (yay hets!! Not! -_-)
I think that's awful.
And according to statistics, 55% of Dobermans are carriers. Approximately 35% are infected. And somewhere around 10% are actually non carriers/non infected. (other sources will say 25% non carrier/non infected, 49% carrier, and 26% infected)

But either way, if the AKC was really about health, they wouldn't breed any infected or carrier dogs at all.
Even if a carrier breeds to a non carrier, it still passes those vWD genes to some of the pups, thus creating more carriers. The only way to guarantee 100% non carrier/infected pups is just to breed clean dogs. And that rarely happens....

The AKC does not breed anything. They set up guidelines for what is to be called a Doberman or Rhodesian Ridgeback, they set a standard. BREEDERS are to blame for all these problems with ethics. They are pairing up infected animals to make money. (Sounds familiar) but just like in the snake world, its up to the breeders to make healthy strong animals that look good too.
The idea of the AKC standard leads to issues with health, but its the breeders who are at fault.

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Its both breeders and AKC. The AKC allow such breedings to occur. Like I mentioned, they say its ethical to breed infected dogs. So since they say its ethical, breeders go ahead and breed those infected animals.

They also say that it is unethical to breed white dobermans ('albinos'). I personally find it more unethical to breed infected or vWD carriers than white z factored dobes.....

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