Cage Heating (Radiant Panel vs Belly Heat)

So I am looking into getting a 421D cage from boaphile for my spider. When I bought her off of KS (She was one of my firsts) It looked like she had suffered from burns from a heat matt or something along those lines. Anyways, She is my favourite so I want to set her up well lol. So for heating, Everything is a bit fuzzy for me, which is better? The panel or the belly heat with the flexiwatt? I also have a Rhinorax from boaphile with a double thermostat for the rest of my snakes (also balls) but there is only one prob. How would I measure the tempature using these thermostats without a prob? Or do I need a COMPLETELY different thermostat, all for that one cage? I am not experienced with flexiwatt or the Radiant Panel at all. And with the panel, how is that hooked up to a cage like the 421D? Inside? Would it burn them? Or do I need some sort of cover for it?

Seperate question, her belly has always looked rough since I got her. The marks scared me when I first got her because I thought it was some sort of scale rot. I took her to the vet and he said it may be somesort of bacterial infection if it wasn't burns & gave me injections to give her for 4 weeks. Nothing changed and that was 6 months ago and nothing has worsened either. She hasn't acted unhealthy, she eats well, is active at night, clean sheds, but lately she has not wanted to sleep under her hide, just under her basking light. The temperature where she sits is 90-91 so I'm ASSUMING she is just basking but its odd to me she doesn't care if she is out in the open at all anymore.... Should I be worried?

Thanks!

I personally use radiant heat panels and they have worked great for me BUT there are some guys out here that will tell you that they will not work efficiently enough for terrestrial snakes like the ball python, however mine work great (I have them in all 7 cages!)and I love them. They install inside the cage and you do not need a cover on them. They do heatup but because they are on the cceiling they do not heat up hot enough for your animal to burn itself. I would stay away from flexwatt for the belly heat if thats the way you go. There are much more safer brands of UTH available. As for the scale thing im not sure what that could be ?

I don't like RHP for terrestrial set ups. They heat from the top down, the top of the hide is hotter than the bottom where you need it. They work, just not efficiently, to my mind a 8w unit set at 93ºF delivering 90ºF temps is more efficient than a 40w unit set at 120º delivering 90ºF. I don't like having a heat source over 100ºF inside the cage no matter where it is. Some say it should be caged off, I am on the fence. They both are radiant heat meaning they they objects not air much like the sun. I have been running an experiment and have proven and been basically back by the designer of spyder robotics that the surface and colour of the objects will effect how much heat is absorbed. Neither makes massive changes in ambient air temps although due to the higher operational temps of RHP (some run them in the 130ºF on the surface) it does translate to a few more degrees. Personally I have two panels and one in arboreal set up (perfect it places heat where you need it and the gradient the direction it needs to be up and down). The second is in a test enclosure granted my test is in a room that is cool averaging 62 this month but the best air temp I have got this month is 67 hardly a massive increase especially given the panel runs at 135º to hold an 88º floor temp.

The behaviour of your snake sounds like poor ambient air temps these should be held to 75 at the lowest and 85 at the upper edges with a good range being 77-83ºF for most of the time. Burns come in two flavours contact burns and term burns. Contact burns come from momentary contact of a very hot surface like if you touch the burner in an oven very short times to a very hot surface. There should be NOTHING the snake can touch to cause a contact burn they are easy to prevent. Term burns are very uncommon in people we do not lay against a hot object for hours and become burned we move first. Snakes do not always. They are a lot of talk about poor thermal sensitivity ect. This I personally do not feel is accurate snakes need to thermal regulate and must sense temps reasonably well. I believe that the thermal sensitivity is more like an averaging temp they will lay against a overly warm object for a long time if the ambient temps are low in an attempt to raise their core temp. This can (and does) result in burns. I believe that many burns are linked to too cool ambient temps. A snake kept in correct ambient temps will avoid hotter than they should be objects.


I am also not a huge fan of flexwatt it is cheap that is about it. i prefer ultratherms as they do not get excessively hot no matter what.

It depends on your situation. I like my home cold and it stays around 68. Because of this I opted to get both rhp and uth in my 4x2 pvc cages. Now the cages I ordered are made of a thinner grade pvc and are therefore not as well insulated as thicker walled cages.

The rhp are mounted to the interior of the cage and do not need a cover. They do get hot to the touch but your snake should not be in contact with it long enough to do any harm.

I found that the rhp in my cages could provide a correct hotspot for my snake but they do not heat the air in the cage much.For a snake that would lay under a rhp without a hide like a perched gtp I think they are by far the best choice. For a snake that like using a hide I personally feel the uth is the best choice. The rhp does not heat the interior of a hide very well and instead heats the surface of the top of the hide. I have found that for my situation the uth produces a better hotspot area.

Even using both types my heaters my cages ambient temps were to low and I had to start heating the room with am oil filled heater. I think that if I didn't keep my home as cold as I do I wouldn't have to heat the room but I like it cold so I converted my spare room to a designated snake room.

As for the tstat you will need a probe so you will need to get another one. If your keeping animals that can use the same temps you can put all rhp on a power strip and then plug that into the tstat. Just make sure the tstat you buy is rated to handle the load. If you choose to use both heater types you could use a Herpstat 2 which has two ports with two probes. You could then plug all rhp to one power strip and all the uth to a second power strip and the unit could control all the devices for a few cages. That will only work to have all the cages produce the same temps. If each cage has an animal with different needs than the others you will need more tstats and one that can control several devices like the Herpstat 4.

I have a Herpstat 4 running lights on four cages, the same temps for three rhp and three uth on three cages, and operate a rhp for a separate cage.

I state my case! Lol. The reason some people cant seem to get their panels to work the way they are supposed to , is that they mount the temp probe to the face of the panel and try to control the output temp of the panel to around 130 deg. That is the reason they are not getting satisfactory results. The panels were designed to run in the 170-190 range. Trying to control the output temps to 130 or lower renders them useless. But what do I know? Im just a guy that has 7 cages working flawlessly while some want to argue the relativity of nature lol. Best of luck my friend and please be careful of the bias views of some you find on this site. Just because they cant get theirs to work correctly doesn't mean the product doesnt work. Remember, its not about their egos, its about your animals health!!!

Ah yes I am appreciative of all of this information! I didn't even know about ultratherms. I'll look into that, Those I can just order and attach myself? Same with the panels? Is there a specific type of cage I should look for that would work best with the ultratherm & how are the applied to the cage? Do they stick to the bottom? Also, would she not get a contact burn if she rose up and touched the panel momentarily if it was running that hot? I

I didn't even think about the ambiant air being off, she is the only one in this horrible cage that is a pain >:|

What is everyones favourite type of enclosure that is simalar to the 421D?

Yes they both are 'plug and play'. Ultratherms are not self adhesive, so some tape would be needed they would be attached the same as any other type of UTH. They are low power low density units and rarely get over 100ºF I use them and have never needed more heat even in my cool rooms. There is no way to get a contact burn at 100ºF even as high as 180ºF if you can touch it is is likely safe for momentary contact. There are some (Dr. Del admin here) who does recommend 'caging RHPs' but he is in the minority. The cage you are suggesting is only 11.5 tall and the RHPs are usually about 2 inches deep (leaving only 9.5) and if the hide is 2 inches •mine are 3.5• (leaves only 7.5) I believe all or most RHPs this is inside the min safe distances so it is discounted anyway.

I like vision enclosures personally the roto system leaves round very easily cleaned corners over the slab construction. I am OCD and clean meticulously and fully disinfect so round corners make it easier.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

I state my case! Lol. The reason some people cant seem to get their panels to work the way they are supposed to , is that they mount the temp probe to the face of the panel and try to control the output temp of the panel to around 130 deg. That is the reason they are not getting satisfactory results. The panels were designed to run in the 170-190 range. Trying to control the output temps to 130 or lower renders them useless. But what do I know? Im just a guy that has 7 cages working flawlessly while some want to argue the relativity of nature lol. Best of luck my friend and please be careful of the bias views of some you find on this site. Just because they cant get theirs to work correctly doesn't mean the product doesnt work. Remember, its not about their egos, its about your animals health!!!

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I dangle mine personally an animal should NEVER EVER come between a probe and a heat source for long. It blocks the heat with its body and causes the t-stat to kick in to full gear. I used my specific temps as a example as that is what I have this month. 130º gives me 90º on the top most surface a snake can lay, and 94º on the most dorsal surface of the animal (if there were an animal in my test enclosure) I never want any of mine to have a relatively small area heated beyond this as it is the point where body function becomes effected.

I just ask for simple fact. You claim they are more efficient, and yet they are higher wattage, and your example they lose up to 100ºF :O . I set uth to 91-2º and get basically 90º give or take half a degree here and there, for less power and lower purchase price. To my mind that is efficient. Unbiased opinion? Oxymoron. Opinions by nature are biased on experience. I use RHP in arboreal set ups they are super efficient this way, heat where and how you want it. I 100% recommend them this way as they were designed to be used. Terrestrial set ups I do not believe they are efficient or do what many claim, heat air. They cost more, lose more heat, (100º still blows me away) and need more power (in most cases 4x) to generate the same hot spot.

I personally do not feel that a snake should be subjected to higher temps on a surface they can lay upon greater than 94ºF the animals safety is paramount. This in my case means I cannot get the 'floor' warmer than 88ºF with out compromising this basic principal. RHP heats down not up. So the nearest thing to the panel two inches over it (thickness of the snake) should never be allowed to be greater than 94ºF.

What kind of tape & the UTHs can be attached to the bottom of that 421D? Without affecting the cage ? Stupid questions that I think I know the answer to but I want to triple check here. I don't want anything burning her or melting lol

What is a good single cage thermastat that y'all have found dependable?

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

I state my case! Lol. The reason some people cant seem to get their panels to work the way they are supposed to , is that they mount the temp probe to the face of the panel and try to control the output temp of the panel to around 130 deg. That is the reason they are not getting satisfactory results. The panels were designed to run in the 170-190 range. Trying to control the output temps to 130 or lower renders them useless. But what do I know? Im just a guy that has 7 cages working flawlessly while some want to argue the relativity of nature lol. Best of luck my friend and please be careful of the bias views of some you find on this site. Just because they cant get theirs to work correctly doesn't mean the product doesnt work. Remember, its not about their egos, its about your animals health!!!

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How do you mount your probe?
Do you have hides under the rhp?
What temp hotspot are you creating?

I have bloods, brb, and a gtp using rhp. They do not require a very warm hotspot so regardless of where the probe is I don't have to get much heat out of them.

You stated alot without giving any helpful hints to the op, like how to setup the probe.

I personally mount mine like this. They are stuck to the non heated rim of the rhp and do not contact the rhp at all. Like Kite said the snake should not come between the probe at any time and I like to put it where they are the less likely to ever contact it at all.

I Never said they didn't work only that I don't believe they are the best choice for a terrestrial animal. For a arboreal animal my choice is a rhp every time. It works great for my gtp.

They may also work better if the hide that they are over is not that deep. Mine is over a cat litter box about 5 inches deep door my blood. It nicely heats the top but from there to the ground it loses to much heat to work well for her.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...020_115558.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

What kind of tape & the UTHs can be attached to the bottom of that 421D? Without affecting the cage ? Stupid questions that I think I know the answer to but I want to triple check here. I don't want anything burning her or melting lol

What is a good single cage thermastat that y'all have found dependable?

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Most of us use foil tape. Just try to keep the tape on the edge of the heaters and not on the dark color heating element for the best results.

i tried something new with my new enclosure , I put the probe close to the top on the cold side opposite where the rhp is ..... before i installed the rhp my tank stayed at room temp ( 70-72 ) after installation I achieved 82 ambient temps with the panel set at 82 and the hottest spot under the panel is 91 ....all i know rhps make it easy for me....

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Originally Posted by mshadows

i tried something new with my new enclosure , I put the probe close to the top on the cold side opposite where the rhp is ..... before i installed the rhp my tank stayed at room temp ( 70-72 ) after installation I achieved 82 ambient temps with the panel set at 82 and the hottest spot under the panel is 91 ....all i know rhps make it easy for me....

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How did you measure the temps? Probe thermometer, temp gun, etc.?

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Originally Posted by KMG

How did you measure the temps? Probe thermometer, temp gun, etc.?

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...all of the above ...

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Originally Posted by mshadows

...all of the above ...

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What's the cage type and dimensions?

...mdf 36 x 24 x 12

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Originally Posted by mshadows

i tried something new with my new enclosure , I put the probe close to the top on the cold side opposite where the rhp is ..... before i installed the rhp my tank stayed at room temp ( 70-72 ) after installation I achieved 82 ambient temps with the panel set at 82 and the hottest spot under the panel is 91 ....all i know rhps make it easy for me....

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This is very similar to the wat I have my probe set up and I am getting close to the same results. I am not concerned if the surface of my panel reaches 190 as it is mounted to the ceiling of my cage and there is no possible way my snake can lay on them. Worst possible situation is that they brush against them and that temp is not hot enough to cause burns for brief encounters. My cages are made of 3/4" plywood and hold temps incredibly well. ( maybe the wood has something to do with why we are getting good results? Or maybe its the probe positions?) Who knows? As for kitedemon, I WILL NOT ARGUE WITH YOU about UTH being more efficient, because you are right it is but you can get satisfactory results from RHPs. One thing to keep in mind as well, once all objects acclimate to the desired temps my panels do not run at full 80 watts. They are proportioned down by my herpstat to run just enough to maintain my dedired temps. Works like a dream!!!!! One thing I wil say to those who run tests with rhp is that it takes almost 48 hours for the environment to stabilize before you will get accurate results. Rhp will raise ambiant air temps BUT not directly, indirectly by heating objects, substrates, etc. But that reaction takes time. The best part about that is the fast recovery time my air temps have if I open the csge doors. If the hot air escapes the objects retain their temps giving me fast recory times and therefore a more stable environment than let say a light or something that only heats the air. UTH will do the same for they run on the same comcept of rhp, they heat objects. In theory radiant heat is radiant heat and yes it is a nice benefit that they are cheaper in cost butmy snakes do not lay on my panels so if worst case my thermostat were to totally fail my snakes would have no chance at getting burned. ( they would sense a change in airtemps and retreat to the cold side where they would be safe) but as hot rocks have shown us all, snakes will not leave a surface that over heats rather they will stay there and get burned. Why that is I dont have any idea but its the facts. THAT is why I choose to have an overhead source of heat rather than a surface heater. It has nothing to do with efficiency.

Plywood is just not a good material for a cage. Yes they hold heat very well but they are also hard to clean correctly.

Have you tested a rhp being unregulated in your cage type. If so what's the air temp get up to? If not I think you should. A snake can be killed by different types of heat not just surface heat.

Just wanted to point out that in your first post you gave no details of your caging and only made statements that rhp are better and that you get them to work perfect. I can assure you if you had PVC cages like we do you would be having the same issues we do. The plywood works better with rhp and that's great but include the fact that you are not using a PVC cage so the op will not get the wrong impression and think they can get the same results as you when they don't realize your using different materials.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Just wanted to point out that in your first post you gave no details of your caging and only made statements that rhp are better and that you get them to work perfect. I can assure you if you had PVC cages like we do you would be having the same issues we do. The plywood works better with rhp and that's great but include the fact that you are not using a PVC cage so the op will not get the wrong impression and think they can get the same results as you when they don't realize your using different materials.

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KMG , you make an excellent point there, different materials do have different reactionsas well as enclosure size. I am using 4'×2'×2' the added head space does give me an advantage. I apologize if I came off hard or with little detail but there are some things that are not known by all. There is a certain individual that has been on my case since I joined this group and does all he can to discredit ANYTHING I have to say and to be honest I have had enough of it. There are more than one solution to any given problem, not just the views of one. I have open tested my panels and they max out at about 100 deg on the hot side which leaves the cold side at 91ish. Both way to hot YES, but survivable.remember this is a worst case scenario. I apologize to the OP for lack of details in my post. Also KMG all surfaces of the cage interiors have been lined with frp ( fiberglass reinforced plastic) or what some call hospital board. This makes them incredibly easy to clean and sanitary.

I never said you could not, but you constantly have given advise based on myths. I have been tinkering in an empty enclosure for over a year now. I have been calibrating and woking with Radiant IR driers for just over 19 years. Add two years of using them with arboreal animals. I have a very good understanding of what they do and how they do it. I have never said your set ups don't work just to stop using myths to sell the idea of them they can stand on their own merits. Please keep in mind you have suggested using a RHP in an 11 inch enclosure, you suggest pro panels I understand this is inside their min recommended distance.


Over a grab bag of exchanges you have said all kinds of things.

Checking ambient temps with an IR gun. I pointed out if true you would only read the air in the body of the gun (objects not air...)
•Have you decided to use an accurate probed one ? Have you checked a shaded air temp yet placing a probe under a RHP only checks the surface of the probe not the air.•

You said RHP are very efficient, more so than UTH. I figure more cost, more power, and far more heat loss means less efficiency.

You said that plastic was dangerous inside an enclosure, and still you have plastic panels over wood, plastic RHPs. I don't think you believe your enclosures are dangerous and as glass reinforced polyester melts at lower temps than PVC, PVC is equally safe or safer as it is very difficult to actually burn. Can we assume that if the inside of the enclosure gets to 200ºC the snake will be cooked before the plastic melts.

You feel that black objects do not get hotter than white objects under radiant heat (the sun) . You felt this is a laughable idea.

You have also ignored the vertical gradient issues and suggested that 90º floor temps while ignoring the top of the hide was fine. I will not ever suggest subjecting a snake to temps over 94º ever is a good idea and the top of the hide is included.

My beef is simple give advise based on truth, RHPs do not directly heat air. They cost more than UTH. They may or may not require supplement heat to raise ambient air temps. There is a min set up distance some suppliers say upwards of 22 inches from face to floor. Probe placement can be tricky finding a spot that it cannot become dislodged, blocked by objects, or snakes. You recommend things repeatedly based on things that are not true. RHP do not belong in low enclosures less than 18 inches IMO I can accept variation but really not 12 not even mentioning 11 like you have just recommended in contradiction to one of your earlier posts. You claim 'keep egos out' then stop trying to undermine my points by hypocritical statements. Contradicting yourself to make a 'fool of me' (or words to that effect, that you said, and then started in on the plastic in enclosure can melt and cause burns, is that your position or is plastic safe again? Or perhaps polyester is not, in your mind, plastic?)

RHP are great when you understand how they work, they are not the fix every situation, and use them in every enclosure solution, you always make them out to be. They have up sides and down sides like everything else. Sometimes the inexpensive simple solution works better do not take buyers remorse out on me.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I never said you could not, but you constantly have given advise based on myths. I have been tinkering in an empty enclosure for over a year now. I have been calibrating and woking with Radiant IR driers for just over 19 years. Add two years of using them with arboreal animals. I have a very good understanding of what they do and how they do it. I have never said your set ups don't work just to stop using myths to sell the idea of them they can stand on their own merits. Please keep in mind you have suggested using a RHP in an 11 inch enclosure, you suggest pro panels I understand this is inside their min recommended distance.


Over a grab bag of exchanges you have said all kinds of things.

Checking ambient temps with an IR gun. I pointed out if true you would only read the air in the body of the gun (objects not air...)
•Have you decided to use an accurate probed one ? Have you checked a shaded air temp yet placing a probe under a RHP only checks the surface of the probe not the air.•

You said RHP are very efficient, more so than UTH. I figure more cost, more power, and far more heat loss means less efficiency.

You said that plastic was dangerous inside an enclosure, and still you have plastic panels over wood, plastic RHPs. I don't think you believe your enclosures are dangerous and as glass reinforced polyester melts at lower temps than PVC, PVC is equally safe or safer as it is very difficult to actually burn. Can we assume that if the inside of the enclosure gets to 200ºC the snake will be cooked before the plastic melts.

You feel that black objects do not get hotter than white objects under radiant heat (the sun) . You felt this is a laughable idea.

You have also ignored the vertical gradient issues and suggested that 90º floor temps while ignoring the top of the hide was fine. I will not ever suggest subjecting a snake to temps over 94º ever is a good idea and the top of the hide is included.

My beef is simple give advise based on truth, RHPs do not directly heat air. They cost more than UTH. They may or may not require supplement heat to raise ambient air temps. There is a min set up distance some suppliers say upwards of 22 inches from face to floor. Probe placement can be tricky finding a spot that it cannot become dislodged, blocked by objects, or snakes. You recommend things repeatedly based on things that are not true. RHP do not belong in low enclosures less than 18 inches IMO I can accept variation but really not 12 not even mentioning 11 like you have just recommended in contradiction to one of your earlier posts. You claim 'keep egos out' then stop trying to undermine my points by hypocritical statements. Contradicting yourself to make a 'fool of me' (or words to that effect, that you said, and then started in on the plastic in enclosure can melt and cause burns, is that your position or is plastic safe again? Or perhaps polyester is not, in your mind, plastic?)

RHP are great when you understand how they work, they are not the fix every situation, and use them in every enclosure solution, you always make them out to be. They have up sides and down sides like everything else. Sometimes the inexpensive simple solution works better do not take buyers remorse out on me.

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Kite, you are sick in the head and need to seek serious medical attention! You seem to want to make things up that people have not said or you misunderstood them. Anyone that have been through the third grade knows that black objects heat up more than white ones. Even in this post I have backed you that uth are more efficient but you want to put words in my mouth saying I said differently. I have never said rhp were the all size fits all. All I have ever backed is that they do work in my set ups under the conditions in MY CAGES. I have always stood true to the fact they dont raise ambiant temps alone, they do heat objects which in turn heat the surrounding air. I have taken every reading in my cages that need to be taken. I used an ir gun to measure surface temps at all levels (vertical gradient) the temps of all objects, I also used a probed accurite thermometer to measuse air temps (even and especially in shaded areas such as the insides of hides and all is well. Fyi I do use pro heat (pro products) and their framework is made of metal not plastic. Here is the deal...im tired of the constant harassment by you and discrediting me and everything I say publically. NONE of us hold degrees on herpetology so you have no right chasing off other members of this site. We are all entitled to our opinions because in the end that is all they are. It is up to the op to do their homework and choose the option that best fits their needs. In the future if you continue to harass me or other members here or you continue to hijack posts you will be reported to the moderators of this site. State your case and stop bullying others. PERIOD!!!!

Norwegn113,

I have gone back and looked at the post between you and Kitedemon over the post you have made on different threads. It seems to me that the problem is you are failing to explain yourself fully and it leads to misunderstood info. Like the post where you suggested to place tile in a cage floor with a uth. I understood it like Kite seemed too. But later when you posted more information and a pic it was clear what you were trying to say.

I don't know you or kitedemon but I think you are going alittle overboard with your responses to him. I Have never seen him give bad information or constantly try to undermine someone elses. I can see from your custom cages you have skill and they look great. I don't think you are meaning to give to little information but I think that's the problem between yall.

I always try to fully explain my setup when needed so the op will know what I have and how it works for me and then judge for themselves if my info is valuable for them in their situation. Like the earlier post I made and you agreed with. I see this as a trend with you post. I Think that if you took alittle more time to explain your setup and try to fully explain your thoughts you two would not be having issues.

Another thing I think you should think of is what kind of advise your giving and who to. Your custom cages are very nice and I know you said you build them professionally but just like you commented that were not herpetologist I seriously doubt you have a degree in cage building. You have alot of skills, alot more than probably most of the members here. So when you are giving advice that involves what most would consider advanced cage building it may not be possible for them to complete the same task to the quality you can and it may lead to them creating an unsafe cage. I Would hate to give advice that was to advanced for a member and learn it lead to an injury of their animals.

I think you should relax. When you make a post just explain the best you can with to many details. Just because your post is clear to you does not mean it will be the received the same as you understands it. It came from your mind so you fully understand what you meant when others don't. Read and re-read your post with the mindset of the op to make sure the other side will understand what you post correctly.

I'm think pvc is a better choice than wood for most people. You know that wood can be harder to care for than pvc. It may insulate better but it is also absorbent and can mold fairly easy when producing the climate we do for or reptiles. Pvc is easy to clea, will not mold and still insulates fairly well. I think for most keepers here its absolutely the best choice for most members. Have have no problem with your selection to use wood as I'm sure you are doing it correctly and successfully. I Just ask that you remember to make the disclaimer that you do use wood and your advise for a pvc user may not be completely applied to a pvc cage.

I also hope that you realize that the mods are constantly logged on and participating in the forum. I'm sure that they have seen yalls post and if they thought kitedemon was out of line would have already handed out an infraction. You seem to be the hostel one and making threats will not get you anywhere.

KMG, you are absolutely correct with your posts. I guess it could be said that I sometimes dont explain myself correctly or that I dont go into the amount of details I should. you are correct by stating that the ideas I have are in my head and although I may see them clearly, others can not see into my head.I do apologize to you and all the members here about my comment about being herpetologists. It was in no way meant to be an insult but to merely point out that to some degree we are all still learning here including myself, which I will also say that at no point did I ever say that I was an expert or the authority on cage building. Just because it is how I pay my bills does not make me an expert. In fact for 20 years I used to build commercial buildings as a union carpenter until the economy collapsed and I lost my home and everything I owned (literally) so building cages was the only way I could think of to feed my family.the entire point of this site is to better the health of our animals , so that they can have the best environments possible. If indeed I am giving out bad advice than I think it is in everyones best interest that I no longer participate in giving advice. I was only trying to offer just another way to look at things sorry for all the drama ...Jeff.

..... So just to make this clear for myself, is there anyway for the ultratherm to burn my snake in a pvc cage? Or is it safe to heat to 89-90 as a place for her belly to sit?

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Originally Posted by Lesserlove

..... So just to make this clear for myself, is there anyway for the ultratherm to burn my snake in a pvc cage? Or is it safe to heat to 89-90 as a place for her belly to sit?

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It is perfectly safe to use the set up you are talking about but please make sure to use a good quality thermostat to plug it into. Sorry to make this thread confusing for you and others.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

KMG, you are absolutely correct with your posts. I guess it could be said that I sometimes dont explain myself correctly or that I dont go into the amount of details I should. you are correct by stating that the ideas I have are in my head and although I may see them clearly, others can not see into my head.I do apologize to you and all the members here about my comment about being herpetologists. It was in no way meant to be an insult but to merely point out that to some degree we are all still learning here including myself, which I will also say that at no point did I ever say that I was an expert or the authority on cage building. Just because it is how I pay my bills does not make me an expert. In fact for 20 years I used to build commercial buildings as a union carpenter until the economy collapsed and I lost my home and everything I owned (literally) so building cages was the only way I could think of to feed my family.the entire point of this site is to better the health of our animals , so that they can have the best environments possible. If indeed I am giving out bad advice than I think it is in everyones best interest that I no longer participate in giving advice. I was only trying to offer just another way to look at things sorry for all the drama ...Jeff.

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Don't stop giving advice just add the needed details to get your complete point across.

Im sorry to hear about your job, that truly sucks. Atleast you have some awesome skills to fall back on. I wish I could make a display like you did. It really does look awesome.

Thanks for having a good attitude and listening to my opinion.