Are ALL Leopards het pied?

Nerds site says all leopards are het pied is this true? Also what is a female going for right now?

ive wondered the same thing. as far as i can tell, yes.

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Originally Posted by creepin

ive wondered the same thing. as far as i can tell, yes.

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At $1000 that makes them a great value then as most female morphs that are het pied run at or above that. With some more confirmation I may have just decided my next pickup

I've never heard this before. Good to know :D

Everything so far points at leopard being a visual het pied. It's not a combo, but a single gene that is allelic with the pied gene.

It's a little frustrating, because "leopard pieds" are basically indistinguishable from regular pieds. They just happen to cost more.

But as far as I've heard, yeah, it's an allelic gene that acts as a visual het pied. Supposedly.

According to World of Ball Pythons and everything else I've ever read Leopard is a dominant gene. I have never heard of it being allelic with piebald before.

Where are you getting this information?

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Originally Posted by BigJayPiercer

According to World of Ball Pythons and everything else I've ever read Leopard is a dominant gene. I have never heard of it being allelic with piebald before.

Where are you getting this information?

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Wobp isn't the best place for genetic info

Info comes from reading about the scattered leopard breedings, any of them that involved a leopard and a het pied seem throw pieds, also all the leopard pieds that obviously throw leopards. a little thinking of how it is possible you can easily come to the conclusion they are allelic which has yet to be proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

It's a little frustrating, because "leopard pieds" are basically indistinguishable from regular pieds. They just happen to cost more.

But as far as I've heard, yeah, it's an allelic gene that acts as a visual het pied. Supposedly.

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If this is true, leopard pieds could produce leopards instead of normal het pieds when bred which would be a huge plus when selling the babies. I think that would be worth the extra costs.


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Also, just to add, the Super Leopard is a visual Pied from what it looks like so far. Unless the animal Greg has happens to be a Super Leopard Pied, but he's claiming it to be a codom with the Super being a Pied animal.

Am I the only one kind of upset by this news?

I thought the Leopard looked awesome by itself and was excited for the combos. As stated, the Leopard Pied just looks mostly like a regular pied. All this news does is ensures the price stays higher for longer.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Am I the only one kind of upset by this news?

I thought the Leopard looked awesome by itself and was excited for the combos. As stated, the Leopard Pied just looks mostly like a regular pied. All this news does is ensures the price stays higher for longer.

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The patterns on the leopard pieds on wobp don't look like normal pieds.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Am I the only one kind of upset by this news?

I thought the Leopard looked awesome by itself and was excited for the combos. As stated, the Leopard Pied just looks mostly like a regular pied. All this news does is ensures the price stays higher for longer.

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how is this bad news? dont you want the price to stay consistent? thats a good thing, not bad.

Because the leopard will make not only pied combo's but also other combo's, besides the ones that look like pied, it has greater possibilities therefor more value.

they are allelic. Leopard and pied work very well together.


For sake of precision, what is called a "leopard pied" is in fact a "leopard het pied". And when bred to a normal, 50% of its offspring will be leopard, the rest will be guaranteed het pied. and when bred to a pied, you get 50% leopard pied and 50% pied.

Its similar to toffee, albino, and the combination, toffino, which is a het toffee het albino genetically.

What im most curious about is the super leopard. Can we be absolutely sure it exists, and not just leopard pied? Is it proven out? Are there maybe known health issues with the super form? it could be that its truly dominant, so that the super leopard doesnt exist because its lethal, like it is with spider or pinstripe.

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Originally Posted by tonkatoyman

Because the leopard will make not only pied combo's but also other combo's, besides the ones that look like pied, it has greater possibilities therefor more value.

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exactly my thoughts

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Originally Posted by cschneider

If this is true, leopard pieds could produce leopards instead of normal het pieds when bred which would be a huge plus when selling the babies. I think that would be worth the extra costs.

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Yeah, that's my understanding. I've never seen it confirmed that they produce leopards, but I assume it has been? I was researching this a few years ago, and I had a hard time getting a straight answer back in 2010 or whatever.

It's still means you'd want to buy from a really reliable breeder. Because someone could totally sell you a regular pied for a lot more money as a "leopard pied", and you wouldn't know until you bred it. I guess that's what I find disconcerting.

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Originally Posted by mercerasian

The patterns on the leopard pieds on wobp don't look like normal pieds.

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They totally look like normal pieds to me. How are they different?

The only thing that stands out on the WOPB animal is the green eye, when all my pieds have coal-black eyes. I guess that would actually be pretty telling, if all leopard pieds had green eyes.

EDIT: Pete Kahl's available leopard pieds all have black eyes:

http://www.pkreptiles.com/available/...ld+Ball+Python

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

What im most curious about is the super leopard. Can we be absolutely sure it exists, and not just leopard pied? Is it proven out? Are there maybe known health issues with the super form? it could be that its truly dominant, so that the super leopard doesnt exist because its lethal, like it is with spider or pinstripe.

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Greg bred the male that he is calling a Super Leopard to over 10 females, with absolutely no normals, only Leopards being produced in those 10+ clutches. The Super animal does have a different look compared to your regular Leopard Pieds as well. No health issues from what I understand.

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

Greg bred the male that he is calling a Super Leopard to over 10 females, with absolutely no normals, only Leopards being produced in those 10+ clutches. The Super animal does have a different look compared to your regular Leopard Pieds as well. No health issues from what I understand.

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I have to go through my history because I scoured the internet read hundreds of post on this but I believe Ralph Davis also has a leopard pied that throws all leopards.

It is my theorey that leopard is just the het form of a different line of pied. Think about ghosts you put a ghost with an orange ghost you get both even though they are different lines. So when you look at leopards if you took that line of pied and put it with the other you would get some of each line. So my thinking is these leopards put together makes your leopard pied, and since it only carries the leopard line of pied you will only get leopards when bred to a normal. If you make a leopard pied by putting leopard with the common line I believe you would get normal het pied when you breed it out

Wait. So is the super leopard also a visual pied? Or not? Do you have a picture?

i agree, pics of super leopard would be awesome!


super leopard bred to pied will then produce 100% leopard pieds.

Whats also really awesome is that leopard will be a really great vector to get different genes into piebald, especially recessive ones!

if you want to make albino pied, for example, you have to deal with normal-looking double hets and hit a 1/16 chance with these, or with albinos that are 50% possible het pieds, and pieds that are 50% possible het albino, basically its a pain in the ass.

but with leopard, if you look at leopard het albino or albino leopard, you can tell the snake has the pied-thing going on. You can track it. Less proving out of possible hets, better odds. and once you have your albino leopard pied, you can breed to pied and can easily go for regular albino pied without leopard. But why even bother and not just stop & be happy once you hit your albino leopard pied?

this gene will long-term be more valuable than the pied gene, no doubt about it. That is, if what is being said about the super leopard by Luke Martin is true. I couldnt find pics with google, but didnt search that intensively.

A super leopard pied would look exactly the same as a leopard pied, it would just have two genes from the leopard line of pied. Think about it like this, if you put a leopard with a regular pied you get a leopard pied that carries the leopard line of pied as well as the regular line of pied and so you will get non leopards when you breed. But if you put leopard to leopard they will only have the leopard line and therefore only pass that line. The super leopard only throws leopards which are it's visual hets similar to how a super pastel only throws pastels which are it's visual hets.

This could very well mean that pied wouldn't be a true recessive and could instead be seen as a condominant trait.

My research into the gene is just starting with the leopard girl I'm getting, but if anyone knows how to contact Graziani or Davis I'd love for them to weigh in with what that know. I also saw Justin Kolbykas name popping up in a few of the threads maybe he can help with this issue

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Wait. So is the super leopard also a visual pied? Or not? Do you have a picture?

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A super leopard would be visual pied as leopard is het pied it would mean that if it had two leopard genes it would have two pied genes thus being visual

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Originally Posted by Anthony Renna

This could very well mean that pied wouldn't be a true recessive and could instead be seen as a condominant trait.

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no, the regular pied-line would still be recessive because the heterozygous pied is not visible. But Leopard (if all we assume about the super form is true) is codominant. And leopard and pied are on the same chromosome / locus. So the genes are part of the same gene complex, a super leopard pied is impossible, a homozygous pied with an additional leopard is impossible, you can only have super leopard, or leopard het pied (1 of each gene), or pied (2x pied gene), and all 3 forms are visible pieds.

so we have 1 recessive gene where the homozygous form is the pied, and 1 codominant gene where the homozygous form is also a pied, but in this case also a super leopard.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

no, the regular pied-line would still be recessive because the heterozygous pied is not visible. But Leopard (if all we assume about the super form is true) is codominant. And leopard and pied are on the same chromosome / locus. So the genes are part of the same gene complex, a super leopard pied is impossible, a homozygous pied with an additional leopard is impossible, you can only have super leopard, or leopard het pied (1 of each gene), or pied (2x pied gene), and all 3 forms are visible pieds.

so we have 1 recessive gene where the homozygous form is the pied, and 1 codominant gene where the homozygous form is also a pied, but in this case also a super leopard.

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A leopard het pied looks like a leopard not a pied. A leopard pied can be leopard x pied and a super leopard would be leopard x leopard and be a visual pied. Not all three form are visible as all leopards are het pied and not all of them are visual pieds

a BP that has the leopard-gene ONCE (NOT super form, only 1 copy), and also has the pied gene ONCE (het pied), looks like a pied.

a leopard is a 1-gene snake, a leopard het pied is a 2-gene snake most frequently called a leopard pied. Thats what the whole thread is about :) (and personally, i would call a pied also a 2-gene snake, and a het pied a 1-gene snake. But different people appear to count differently.)

people also call the toffino a toffee albino while most precisely it is a het toffee het albino.

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

a BP that has the leopard-gene ONCE (NOT super form, only 1 copy), and also has the pied gene ONCE (het pied), looks like a pied.

a leopard is a 1-gene snake, a leopard het pied is a 2-gene snake most frequently called a leopard pied. Thats what the whole thread is about :) (and personally, i would call a pied also a 2-gene snake, and a het pied a 1-gene snake. But different people appear to count differently.)

people also call the toffino a toffee albino while most precisely it is a het toffee het albino.

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ALL Leopards have been proven het pied to this point so when you see regular leopard it is het pied. A leopard with a second pied gene is your leopard pied. And a leopard with a second leopard gene is what I'm considering a super leopard.
Leopard pied has two pied genes and is not het pied but an actual pied
A leopard has one and can be called leopard het pied

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

a BP that has the leopard-gene ONCE (NOT super form, only 1 copy), and also has the pied gene ONCE (het pied), looks like a pied.

a leopard is a 1-gene snake, a leopard het pied is a 2-gene snake most frequently called a leopard pied. Thats what the whole thread is about :) (and personally, i would call a pied also a 2-gene snake, and a het pied a 1-gene snake. But different people appear to count differently.)

people also call the toffino a toffee albino while most precisely it is a het toffee het albino.

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So by your logic a Mojave lesser BEL would be a het Super Mojave het super lesser? I don't really get what your sayin. It seems like you are over complicating it. A leopard is a visual het pied. That's the simplest form. Or you can say its a new line of pied.

But I see what your saying about the leopard x "plane Jane" het pied. That pairing would give you:
25% het pieds
25% normals
25% leopards
25% leopard pieds

As far as I know you can't have a leopard that isn't het pied. So its either some BS like the granite and HGW being "stuck together" or leopard is a visual het pied. IMHO

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

it could be that its truly dominant, so that the super leopard doesnt exist because its lethal, like it is with spider or pinstripe.

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Being Dominant does not mean it's "super" form is lethal. Dominant would mean that both the het and homo form look exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Anthony Renna

This could very well mean that pied wouldn't be a true recessive and could instead be seen as a condominant trait.

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Really if you look at it, what we call codom works exactly the way recesives work, not codomanance. Technicaly, and I am sure many will beg to differ, but what we call codominant morphs, to me, are just visual recessive color/pattern genetics.

the leopard popped up in peter kahls piebald projects. all it is is a visual het.. or if you want, call it a co-dom with the super form being piebald. same thing. basically he noticed from some of his piebalds offspring that the hets weren't normal looking. check out the leopard orange dream. the pattern looks very similar to a piebald minus the white. "visual hets" and co-doms are pretty much the same thing. ex: het red axanthics, russo (het BEL), and i'm sure you've seen people call lessers and butters "het BEL"

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Originally Posted by creepin

the leopard popped up in peter kahls piebald projects. all it is is a visual het.. or if you want, call it a co-dom with the super form being piebald. same thing. basically he noticed from some of his piebalds offspring that the hets weren't normal looking. check out the leopard orange dream. the pattern looks very similar to a piebald minus the white. "visual hets" and co-doms are pretty much the same thing. ex: het red axanthics, russo (het BEL), and i'm sure you've seen people call lessers and butters "het BEL"

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Yeah your right I've even referred to my pastel as het super pastel before.

Here is the pic and description to go with the pic that I saved a while back. I didn't remember it was a Pastel as well, but same situation :)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...49745688_n.jpg

"Here is the father of the Leopard Super Pastel Double Het Axanthic Piebald. After 2 seasons and over 10 clutches he has produced 100% Leopards! If my theory is correct that the Leopard gene and the Piebald gene can't be separated then all Super Leopards must be Piebalds."

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

Here is the pic and description to go with the pic that I saved a while back. I didn't remember it was a Pastel as well, but same situation :)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...49745688_n.jpg

"Here is the father of the Leopard Super Pastel Double Het Axanthic Piebald. After 2 seasons and over 10 clutches he has produced 100% Leopards! If my theory is correct that the Leopard gene and the Piebald gene can't be separated then all Super Leopards must be Piebalds."

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This is cool. I never knew


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Awesome glad to see the picture

There is a breeder near me who has Leopards, and Leopard Pieds. And at least with his animals, you can pick out the Leopard Pied from a standard pied. I really like the Leopard look, and if it weren't so expensive I'd love to get in to the project.

Gale

So, what I'm getting from this is, Pied is a super gene, with leopard being the co-dom form, correct?

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

So, what I'm getting from this is, Pied is a super gene, with leopard being the co-dom form, correct?

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not exactly. Piebald is a recessive trait with the hets looking normal. the leopard is a special line of piebald het where the "hets" are visual. basically, a standard piebald is a recessive gene that produces normal looking hets. leopard is a "co-dom" animal who's super form is piebald.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

There is a breeder near me who has Leopards, and Leopard Pieds. And at least with his animals, you can pick out the Leopard Pied from a standard pied. I really like the Leopard look, and if it weren't so expensive I'd love to get in to the project.

Gale

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If you look around you can find them cheap, it is a pricey project but the results are well worth it. Leopard is quickly becoming the next enchi it enhances everything and its demand is picking up. Key difference is leopard does more in combos imo. Either way firefly leopard pieds and enchi leopard pieds are on my to do list

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

So, what I'm getting from this is, Pied is a super gene, with leopard being the co-dom form, correct?

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Not exactly. In general Pied is still a recessive gene. But with the Leopard gene it seems to be a gene that is either connected to the Pied line it originated from or is a visual line of Het Pieds(much more likely in my opinion).
The one thing we don't really talk about with BP genetics is all the other genetic and biochemical info that is really going on with these animals. All we talk about is the visual or phenotypic results that we see. There are a ton of other things going on with the genetic enzymes and proteins in these animals.

For those wanting more info on the whole Leopard gene and the het Pied stuff listen to Greg's interview on HerpHerpHorray.
Here is the link
http://h3.herpherphooray.com/media.html

I've not worked with the leopard version (as far as I know) but IMHO regular pied has some pretty co-dominant tendencies. I've proven three 25% chance het pied girls and a 33% chance het pied girl and several possible het males along the way looking for the markers. Obviously I don't have leopard data to back it up but I could easily see it being another allele of pied that is further down the co-dominant scale.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I've not worked with the leopard version (as far as I know) but IMHO regular pied has some pretty co-dominant tendencies. I've proven three 25% chance het pied girls and a 33% chance het pied girl and several possible het males along the way looking for the markers. Obviously I don't have leopard data to back it up but I could easily see it being another allele of pied that is further down the co-dominant scale.

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now here is a project for you, line breed the "visual" het pieds you proved out and I bet if you breed for the "markers" you will get hets that there is never a question about

I am pretty excited about a 12.5% chance het pied girl I hope to prove this year. She is from an extreme marker line (Raul Gomez - some of her het relatives looked like low white pieds). Her markers are awesome and almost as good as her 25% chance het dad so I don't doubt she'll prove.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I am pretty excited about a 12.5% chance het pied girl I hope to prove this year. She is from an extreme marker line (Raul Gomez - some of her het relatives looked like low white pieds). Her markers are awesome and almost as good as her 25% chance het dad so I don't doubt she'll prove.

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Best of luck proving her out

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Originally Posted by creepin

not exactly. Piebald is a recessive trait with the hets looking normal. the leopard is a special line of piebald het where the "hets" are visual. basically, a standard piebald is a recessive gene that produces normal looking hets. leopard is a "co-dom" animal who's super form is piebald.

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This is very interesting!

What if you bread a leopard to a regular pied (not from any leopard line) and then ended up with a leopard pied as one of the offspring. Could this be a "super leopard" as Graziani is describing, even though it didn't come from a leopard x leopard pairing? Or maybe the super form of leopard (leopard pied) can only come from a leopard x leopard pairing, whether they parents are visual pieds or not. I think this is pretty important for the future of the gene: the ability to distinguish a "super leopard" from a "non-super" leopard pied. Sounds like the only way to be safe is by not mixing a regular line of pied with any leopard pied projects.

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Originally Posted by Alex85

This is very interesting!

What if you bread a leopard to a regular pied (not from any leopard line) and then ended up with a leopard pied as one of the offspring. Could this be a "super leopard" as Graziani is describing, even though it didn't come from a leopard x leopard pairing?

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a "super leopard" would have to come from two leopard parents.. which would produce a piebald that when bred to a normal, would produce nothing but leopards. if you bred a leopard to a regular piebald, you would have a 50% chance of producing visual piebalds, and those piebalds, when grown up and bred to a normal should throw (statistically speaking) 50% leopards (het pied) and 50% normal looking balls that are het pied.

this is assuming that all leopards are het pied.. which is looking to be the case.