Help

So my sunglow girl, Dolly has been with me since April of 2012. In that time she's never had a health issue.

In the past month or so she has stopped eating, but I'm not sure if that's because the live food intimidates her (she's used to frozen), or something else.

Just now, I heard what sounded like hissing, so I turned around and she had her mouth wide open, and appeared to be hissing at the glass doors. She then closed her mouth, her body tensed up, and I heard this horrifying loud gurgling sound (like the sound of something being dragged across the bottom of a bathtub, or the sound of someone using a toilet plunger). Almost like she was trying to vomit, or had diarrhea, but she hasn't eaten anything for a month, and it was REALLY loud. She did this hissing, body tensing, then gurgling sound several times. She then stopped, and her head twitched slightly, and she laid back down like nothing happened.

I am seriously freaked out. She is with the rest of my collection after being quarantined, and I have no idea what's going on. I've never read about anything like this, and I despair at the thought of taking her to the vet, who probably doesn't know any more than I do.

She has no discharge in her mouth or around it. Her body weight is good, and other than this she has been acting normally, just a bit shy.

That does sound weird. My first impression was RI, but it doesn't really sound like that. Did she actually regurgitate anything? Or did it just seem like maybe she was trying? Has she eaten anything at all in the last month? Are you feeding her f/t or are you still trying to feed live? How often have you tried to feed her?

What is your set up like? Temps? Heating method and control? Cage size? Humidity?

I know these are a lot of questions, but answers will help us help you.

These signs do sound similar to initial symptoms of IBD. I am not one of those who sees IBD in every sick boa - in fact, I think IBD occurs far less than we think it does. However, these symptoms are similar and should not be ignored. I would immediately seperate her from the rest of your collection and put her back in strict quarantine - at least until you figure out for sure what's going on.

Sounds like you don't have a lot of faith in your current herp vet. I would do some research and try to find another vet that has more experience - even if you have to drive a ways to get to one. My own herp vet is 45 minutes away from me. It's not ideal, but worth it to know you're getting your snake good care. So if you can locate one within driving distance, I would take her there asap.

x2 to Kali's post. Need to know more about the husbandry, it sounds close to the start of an RI. I'd look for any kind of possibly dry mucus around the nose and mouth. Get her to her own room again just incase the horrid IBD is present. Make sure you clean yourself VERY thoroughly between messing with her and anything else in your collection to minimize the risk of transmission just in case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

That does sound weird. My first impression was RI, but it doesn't really sound like that. Did she actually regurgitate anything? Or did it just seem like maybe she was trying? Has she eaten anything at all in the last month? Are you feeding her f/t or are you still trying to feed live? How often have you tried to feed her?

What is your set up like? Temps? Heating method and control? Cage size? Humidity?

I know these are a lot of questions, but answers will help us help you.

These signs do sound similar to initial symptoms of IBD. I am not one of those who sees IBD in every sick boa - in fact, I think IBD occurs far less than we think it does. However, these symptoms are similar and should not be ignored. I would immediately seperate her from the rest of your collection and put her back in strict quarantine - at least until you figure out for sure what's going on.

Sounds like you don't have a lot of faith in your current herp vet. I would do some research and try to find another vet that has more experience - even if you have to drive a ways to get to one. My own herp vet is 45 minutes away from me. It's not ideal, but worth it to know you're getting your snake good care. So if you can locate one within driving distance, I would take her there asap.

---

She didn't regurgitate anything. It sort of seemed like she was trying, but it's hard to say. I almost got the impression that the hissing was out of pain, which was then followed by her body tensing. She hasn't eaten since the beginning of December. I offer food once a week. I was going to try a F/T rat this next week, but after this I think I will wait. She's in a 4x2 boa master cage. She's usually on corrugated paper, but after she defecated a week or so ago I put a bag of pine shavings in, as it was all I had available. She has a large zoo med heat pad under her cage that's attached to a hydrofarm thermostat. I haven't measured humidity in a while, but she had a perfect shed on December 22nd.

Now that I think about it, last week she did receive a TINY nip on her face from a soft fur. I wiped it off and didn't worry about it because it was barely visible.

I will make an appointment tomorrow with a herp vet. She's been in my collection for a few months, so I'm freaked out about the idea of IBD.

GET RID OF THE PINE SHAVINGS!!! Pine releases oils that are TOXIC to reptiles!! This could very possibly be your problem!


In addition to that, why try to feed live if she's only eaten f/t before? Stick with that. Do wait a week more before trying again. Do go to the vet - in fact, I'd try to see the vet before trying to feed her again. Try not to be too freaked out about IBD. Remember, I do not think it happens as often as we think it does. But q/t is important even if it's not IBD. You don't want an RI spreading either. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

GET RID OF THE PINE SHAVINGS!!! Pine releases oils that are TOXIC to reptiles!! This could very possibly be your problem!


In addition to that, why try to feed live if she's only eaten f/t before? Stick with that. Do wait a week more before trying again. Do go to the vet - in fact, I'd try to see the vet before trying to feed her again. Try not to be too freaked out about IBD. Remember, I do not think it happens as often as we think it does. But q/t is important even if it's not IBD. You don't want an RI spreading either. :gj:

---

I keep most of my snakes on pine. It isn't toxic to them. The only toxic pine is the kind that isn't kiln dried, and this is. I also keep my rats on it with no issues.

She's been being offered live because I raise my own feeders and I ran out of C02 gas. I've been in the middle of a move so I had no time to worry about getting more. She has eaten live with no problems before.

She definitely doesn't have an RI. This is nothing like an RI.

Well, a vet is your best bet then.

I would still be highly concerned about the pine shavings. Just because your other snakes have not shown any symptoms doesn't mean it isn't toxic. Even kiln dried pine can still give off fumes.

Coniferous trees - pines, firs, cedars, etc - have "volatile oils" in their wood. They smell pleasant to us (just think of all the pine-scented cleaners and air fresheners out there) but are dangerous to reptiles. Did you know that cedar wood is used in closets for that very reason? The compounds in cedar are deadly to clothes moths and other insects, so using the wood keeps the bugs out. Pine and these other woods are often perfectly fine for rodents. I've kept hamsters and rats for years on pine shavings. But these coniferous oils are not safe for reptiles. Kiln drying these woods does not remove all the oils. Cedar used in closets is often "kiln dried."

When we put snakes and other herps on pine or cedar, they get the same effect. It hurts their respiratory system something awful - imagine living in a room full of smokers for a long time. Pretty soon you'd start to feel some bad effects, right? Snakes on pine can develop breathing problems and even infections. So keeping them on that kind of wood is dangerous and shouldn't ever be done. Aspen doesn't have this problem because it's in a completely different group of trees.

Please take our word for it that pine and its relatives are very bad for snakes. There is a lot of information out there on it too, so you can research online for yourself if you like. Until you get some aspen shavings (or other option), you can put down a couple layers of newspaper. It'll be a safe alternative until a better solution is found. It can often take a very long time for these toxins to build up in a snakes enclosure and boas are often more sensitive in this manner and that could be why yours is showing these symptoms before any of your other snakes.

Good luck with her - I hope you are able to find a solution soon!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Well, a vet is your best bet then.

I would still be highly concerned about the pine shavings. Just because your other snakes have not shown any symptoms doesn't mean it isn't toxic. Even kiln dried pine can still give off fumes.

Coniferous trees - pines, firs, cedars, etc - have "volatile oils" in their wood. They smell pleasant to us (just think of all the pine-scented cleaners and air fresheners out there) but are dangerous to other animals. Did you know that cedar wood is used in closets for that very reason? The compounds in cedar are deadly to clothes moths and other insects, so using the wood keeps the bugs out. Kiln drying these woods does not remove all the oils. Cedar used in closets is often "kiln dried."

When we put snakes and other herps on pine or cedar, they get the same effect. It hurts their respiratory system something awful - imagine living in a room full of smokers for a long time. Pretty soon you'd start to feel some bad effects, right? Snakes on pine can develop breathing problems and even infections. So keeping them on that kind of wood is dangerous and shouldn't ever be done. Aspen doesn't have this problem because it's in a completely different group of trees.

Please take our word for it that pine and its relatives are very bad for snakes. There is a lot of information out there on it too, so you can research online for yourself if you like. Until you get some aspen shavings (or other option), you can put down a couple layers of newspaper. It'll be a safe alternative until a better solution is found. It can often take a very long time for these toxins to build up in a snakes enclosure and boas are often more sensitive in this manner and that could be why yours is showing these symptoms before any of your other snakes.

Good luck with her - I hope you are able to find a solution soon!

---

"Our" word? I'd rather take Skiploder's word for it, because he has far more experience than either of us. Cedar is harmful, kiln dried pine is not. I have used it for years now.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...49#post1915049

I appreciate your concern, and I will update after I see the vet.

Sorry for being kind of snappish, I'm just worried about my baby. :( I don't mean to be rude.

On the bright side when I lifted her out of her cage she seemed fine and was just curious about what was going on. She will still be going to the vet tomorrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Sorry for being kind of snappish, I'm just worried about my baby. :( I don't mean to be rude.

On the bright side when I lifted her out of her cage she seemed fine and was just curious about what was going on. She will still be going to the vet tomorrow.

---

Please don't take this comment as condescending but wouldn't it be worth a shot trying different substrate since there is an argument on pine just to see if it helps?

Worst case your boa is in the same condition...

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Sorry for being kind of snappish, I'm just worried about my baby. :( I don't mean to be rude.

On the bright side when I lifted her out of her cage she seemed fine and was just curious about what was going on. She will still be going to the vet tomorrow.

---

Yeeeah..... Sorry, but your previous post really didn't come off too well. "Our word for it" was mearly a typo - don't get overly technical. And how do you know how much more experience Skip has over me? I'm not being egotistical, but you don't know me personally and have no idea just how much experience I have. On that note, you don't know how little either so I do apologize as that does sound egotistical even to me. But since I'm trying to help you, throwing that back at me doesn't fly too well and frankly it kind of ticked me off. But I am sorry - I also do not intend to be rude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by martin82531

Please don't take this comment as condescending but wouldn't it be worth a shot trying different substrate since there is an argument on pine just to see if it helps?

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

---

And this is exactly my point. You have a snake with a problem. I would be trying ANYTHING to see if it helps. I have told you what I think. I will moniter this thread to see how your snake is doing as I am concerned for it, but I won't be posting any longer. I do hope your boa improves soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

"Our" word? I'd rather take Skiploder's word for it, because he has far more experience than either of us. Cedar is harmful, kiln dried pine is not. I have used it for years now.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...49#post1915049

I appreciate your concern, and I will update after I see the vet.

---

You came here and asked for help, Evenstar is trying. No need to be rude because you don't like the answers you got. Reminds me of a newb kid move.

Pine and cedars are not good to use! Why fight about it, when you can just put papers down and see if that helps. You want help, that's a suggestion you've been given. And no harm in trying.

And... I have been on here for a year and a half, seen enough to know who I would trust for advice, and who not. If I ever had a boa problem, Evenstar would be the first person I ran to.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

She has been on pine before and never had this type of reaction. I have never seen anything in any of my animals to incline me towards believing that the pine is the issue.

I felt aggravated that I came here for advice and instead ended up being treated like a newbie and arguing over whether or not pine is an issue. Evenstar came off as condescending when she dismissed the symptoms out of hand as soon as she heard I was using pine. I have had so many people condescend to me for using pine when I've never had an issue with it, and they can never provide me with solid evidence that pine is in fact an issue.

I was incredibly frustrated that after all my years of experience, my concerns were being dismissed as being caused by a bedding that I have every reason to believe is benign.

I apologized, and yet everyone else is more interested in raking me over the coals for being rude.

Well, Evenstar cannot replace your vet. Your vet can give you answers. Evenstar is offering her advice on what she thinks your problem might be. That's typically how things work around here. Someone says "help I have blank problem" people come on, and with the best of their experience offer advice. Once you stated the husbandry, that obviously triggered a flag. Just because you have been using it with no problems doesn't mean its ok, or good to use...

No one is "raking you over the coals". Only trying to help. So I don't know what answers you are hoping for, but I hope your snake is ok.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Honestly I cant blame evenstar for with drawing. She was merely trying to help with her suggestion. I also have to agree that the pine bedding was the first red flag that popped in my mind also. Just because we have done something before with no ill effect doesnt mean that it cant happen for the first time. i.e. a different brand of bedding, a slip up in quality control at the plant that produces it. What ever ya know. Safety is written in blood. thats a saying we have at my job. theres several things we do everyday the same way every time. things that we have done for decades in my industry. Then one day someone gets hurt doing it that way. Then we step back and find a safer way to do it. The pine bedding is questionable in most of our minds. I personnaly would never use pine kiln dried or not for any reptile! As for questioning her experience level.... I'm at a loss on that. I trust her judgement on boas above most. I understand you are upset about your new baby but still there are more polite ways of dealing with such situations. I also value skiploaders opinions but I have no idea what his experience level is either. All I can say is any advice given should be appreciated and thanked and double checked. In evenstars case she will almost always tell you where to find the info she has just offered if you ask. just my $.02

btw this link was also in the replies to the link you posted.
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...-and-toxicity/
it list pine as an irritant, asthma hazard
now having said that it does not specify kiln dried or not but i'd say why risk it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

She has been on pine before and never had this type of reaction. I have never seen anything in any of my animals to incline me towards believing that the pine is the issue.

I felt aggravated that I came here for advice and instead ended up being treated like a newbie and arguing over whether or not pine is an issue. Evenstar came off as condescending when she dismissed the symptoms out of hand as soon as she heard I was using pine. I have had so many people condescend to me for using pine when I've never had an issue with it, and they can never provide me with solid evidence that pine is in fact an issue.

I was incredibly frustrated that after all my years of experience, my concerns were being dismissed as being caused by a bedding that I have every reason to believe is benign.

I apologized, and yet everyone else is more interested in raking me over the coals for being rude.

---

Just out of curiosity, How many years have you been working with herps?

IIRC, oil based reactions normally show up after prolonged exposure. And at the same time, some animals reaction are violent and others seem "immune" to the effects. That being said, what it is the harm in swapping it up with some newspapers whilst waiting on your vet appointment? Now omitting that fact I would be more inclined to lean towards either IBD or RI as well... And I really hate saying that because both are generic "go-to" reasons and thoughts no matter how serious or minor the "symptoms" are being expressed.. Dolly's symptoms sound rather serious which is why I even took the time to mention it. Please update after the vet apt.

Well, first of all I would like to apologize again, more sincerely this time, to Evenstar. I am very sorry that I questioned your level of experience, and became so aggressive about the pine issue. You made the effort to post in this thread to help me, and I was very ungrateful about it. So, I do apologize.

I genuinely appreciate the support and friendship I have found on this site, and I have no wish to alienate anyone over a disagreement about pine.

H.o.F.R. - Dolly is not a new snake, I have owned her since April 1st of last year. She was a rescue snake, which concerns me despite her 6 month quarantine. She was rescued with 13 ball pythons, none of whom have shown symptoms of IBD (as far as I know, I do not own them). Skiploder has 30+ years of experience with snakes.

I would like to share an article I read about cedar toxicity symptoms in snakes:

http://www.anapsid.org/cedar.html

"Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed."

Dolly has not demonstrated any of these symptoms. I was not able to find any articles about the effects of pine, but I am assuming that hypothetically speaking, the symptoms would be similar to cedar toxicity.

I checked on her today in her quarantine tub, and she is coiled up as she normally is. No concerning symptoms today.

I was going to take her to the vet today, but I remembered that my husband will have the car. So she is going tomorrow, and I will update everyone as soon as I find anything out.

Just because Skip talks himself up doesn't mean he is 100% right all the time. Take his teachings with a grain of salt, as you would with anyones advice off the internet.

I think a vet visit is the only way to know for sure. If it was an isolated incident and you never see it happen again, perhaps the snake was spooked by something or angry.. who knows. I wasn't there for sure, but it could have just been a very angry snake, no necessarily a sick one.

Just my opinion. I'm no vet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

Just because Skip talks himself up doesn't mean he is 100% right all the time. Take his teachings with a grain of salt, as you would with anyones advice off the internet.

I think a vet visit is the only way to know for sure. If it was an isolated incident and you never see it happen again, perhaps the snake was spooked by something or angry.. who knows. I wasn't there for sure, but it could have just been a very angry snake, no necessarily a sick one.

Just my opinion. I'm no vet!

---

I always do my own research when offered any opinion by someone else. I was strongly against pine until Skiploder presented me with good reasons to question my current beliefs. So I did a lot of research, and was unable to find anything except hypothetical information about the possible toxicity of kiln dried pine. I found a few resources that suggested that kiln dried pine is not harmful, and I found many threads on different websites where people stated they had been using pine for x number of years without any issues.

I have yet to personally meet or hear of anyone that had issues caused by kiln dried pine. I have kept rats (which have very sensitive respiratory systems) on it for years, with no issues. My own experience and research have taught me that there is no reason to fear pine. I simply cited Skiploder on this one because he has far more experience in the herp community than I do, and I hoped that it would bring a quick end to the debate.

I don't believe that she was angry. In the 9+ months I've owned her, she has never hissed at me and never behaved aggressively. Even when she was first rescued she was tame as could be, which is why I named her Dolly.

I could accept the theory about her being spooked if not for the extremely loud squelching/scraping sound that came from her. It was nothing like an RI gurgle, it was so loud that I could have heard it from outside the room with the door closed.

The impression I got was one of pain, almost. Like she was hissing from the pain and then the tensing of her body caused the sound to occur.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I always do my own research when offered any opinion by someone else. I was strongly against pine until Skiploder presented me with good reasons to question my current beliefs. So I did a lot of research, and was unable to find anything except hypothetical information about the possible toxicity of kiln dried pine. I found a few resources that suggested that kiln dried pine is not harmful, and I found many threads on different websites where people stated they had been using pine for x number of years without any issues.

I have yet to personally meet or hear of anyone that had issues caused by kiln dried pine. I have kept rats (which have very sensitive respiratory systems) on it for years, with no issues. My own experience and research have taught me that there is no reason to fear pine. I simply cited Skiploder on this one because he has far more experience in the herp community than I do, and I hoped that it would bring a quick end to the debate.

I don't believe that she was angry. In the 9+ months I've owned her, she has never hissed at me and never behaved aggressively. Even when she was first rescued she was tame as could be, which is why I named her Dolly.

I could accept the theory about her being spooked if not for the extremely loud squelching/scraping sound that came from her. It was nothing like an RI gurgle, it was so loud that I could have heard it from outside the room with the door closed.

The impression I got was one of pain, almost. Like she was hissing from the pain and then the tensing of her body caused the sound to occur.

---

I agree with you on the pine. I'm pretty confident it isn't the pine, but you have to admit it is worth changing to see if it does any good. Why not? Couldn't hurt! There is no quick end to a debate on the internet, unfortunately :P

Yeah that sound is the only thing that is out of the ordinary... perhaps it was gas? A fart? A burp? If she hasn't been eating it makes some sort of sense that it might just be the lack of something in her stomach causing it to make a strange noise.

It really is odd. I read your post when you initially made it, and I had no suggestions other than the vet. It really does sound unusual. Does she seem normal since it happened?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

I agree with you on the pine. I'm pretty confident it isn't the pine, but you have to admit it is worth changing to see if it does any good. Why not? Couldn't hurt! There is no quick end to a debate on the internet, unfortunately :P

Yeah that sound is the only thing that is out of the ordinary... perhaps it was gas? A fart? A burp? If she hasn't been eating it makes some sort of sense that it might just be the lack of something in her stomach causing it to make a strange noise.

It really is odd. I read your post when you initially made it, and I had no suggestions other than the vet. It really does sound unusual. Does she seem normal since it happened?

---

True that there's no quick end to a debate, especially with a group of people that are passionate about what they do.

She is on newspaper now in her quarantine tub. She'll be back on paper when she's better, but that's just because it's a pain to clean any substrate out of a 4x2 cage. :P

It seemed too loud to be just mild digestive distress, and she did the whole routine several times before stopping. The head tremor at the end was also concerning. After she sees the vet I'll try offering her a small F/T meal just in case she was experiencing hunger pains. I'll probably soak her for a short time today just to ease any discomfort that I can.

And yes, she seems completely normal now, which is why I'm okay about delaying the vet until tomorrow. When I took her to the quarantine bin too, she seemed normal, relaxed, and curious about where she was going.

I don't believe its the pine either. The OP said they use Kiln dried, which has no oils unlike regular pine, which is dangerous.

I use kiln dried pine for my rodent colony. And they have a much more sensitive respiratory system and do just fine.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Dolly has been in quarantine for about a week now, and has been acting normally. No concerning symptoms at all. Yesterday she ate a F/T medium rat, and this morning she is looking good. I still plan on taking her to the vet, but it's no longer an emergency situation in my eyes. Currently waiting on a response from the vet, who I emailed over the weekend.

I'm glad to hear it. Maybe she was possessed and someone exorcised her demons. :P

She hasn't been eating for you recently right? So something must be better!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

I'm glad to hear it. Maybe she was possessed and someone exorcised her demons. :P

She hasn't been eating for you recently right? So something must be better!

---

Yeah, she went about 5 weeks without eating. Maybe she just had really bad gas or something, lol. :P