I've got a moral question

I know a guy that has a few burms. But they are illegal in NY. Should I call the animal cops? He has pics of them on his fb so its not like he's trying to hide them. What would you do?

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Have you tried to talk to him about it? How he should turn the animals over because if something happens or he gets caught he will just hurt the hobby and fuel the fire? As for calling someone about it, thats a tough one. Sorry if I was not of much help.

When you say a few, how many do you mean? I guess it depends on how flagrantly he disobeys the law. If he has 20 burms in his home and is working on breeding them, I'd most certainly call the cops. But, if it's just 1 or 2 and there's never been a problem with them, I'd leave the guy alone. If he's good with the animals, takes care of them well, keeps them out of trouble and doesn't act stupid with them, I don't see any reason to call the animal cops. If they've never been a problem for him or anyone he knows, why should they be a problem to you? But if you think there is any danger whatsoever to the man, the snakes, or anyone around him, then alert the authorities. That's just my honest opinion.

No that's the problem I can't talk to him. If I could I know he wouldn't do anything. I had a high falling out with him and some other people and we haven't spoken in 4 months.

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I've never seen them but I know he's had one for a few years and he just got a new baby for Xmas. He breeds boas and balls. He takes them outside in the summer. I know he had 2 venomous snakes but I don't know if he still does. We weren't very close more a friend of a friend.

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Rea, I understand what your saying, but just possessing them illegally is a problem. The laws suck in some states, the laws are extremely strict here in Bayern Germany, I could easily keep burms, retics, anacondas, I know people who have them, legally, and can sell them to me, legally, but with out a school, and a permit, I cannot have them legally. I guess Im saying just because you can get them does not mean you should have them. Suck it up if you live in NY and dont own illegal snakes, wether its constrictors or venomous. It makes reptile owners look irresponsible and lawmakers think that they need to control us. Is there anyway to keep the animals legally, a permit or something?

If he had it before 2005 and has paperwork proof then its legal but the baby he just got is illegal.

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I'm unaware of the exact legal situation in that locale, so forgive me if I'm out of line here. Is it possible he could have a permit allowing him to keep them? Presuming that's not possible, is he aware that his actions are illegal? If he's not aware, the correct course of action, IMO, would be to inform him of his legal situation so that he can make an informed choice. Beyond that, I personally wouldn't report him unless you feel he's acting in such a way as to make his snakes a danger to himself or others. I certainly wouldn't do it just because you had a falling out with him...

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Rea, I understand what your saying, but just possessing them illegally is a problem. The laws suck in some states, the laws are extremely strict here in Bayern Germany, I could easily keep burms, retics,anacondas, I know people who have them, legally, and can sell them to me, legally, but with out a school, and a permit, I cannot have them legally. I guess Im saying just because you can get them does not mean you should have them. Suck it up if you live in NY and dont own illegal snakes, wether its constrictors or venomous. It makes reptile owners look irresponsible and lawmakers think that they need to control us. Is there anyway to keep the animals legally, a permit or something?

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I do understand what you're saying there. I suppose I'm trying to say more that I wouldn't personally get involve in it unless I felt there was danger to anyone. I certainly wouldn't promote letting him buy a new burm if this was the question, and seeing as he just got a baby for xmas, that does make me nervous. But if he already has them, the damage to the hobby could come either way. If you turn him in, he'll look irresponsible and lawmakers will push for stricter laws. If he's caught on his own, the same thing will happen. If he was buying a new one, certainly stop him. And if he's just gotten a new one, perhaps I'll have to change my opinion, as he obviously doesn't plan on cutting burms from his hobby. But if he simply owned a burm or two, I wouldn't call him on it, I guess is all I'm saying.

But Toyoto, if he does look like he plans on extending this hobby, perhaps you should alert someone. I don't want to hear about some guy in New York with a dozen adult burms in his house and have the newspapers go crazy... I'll have to conceed to eatgoodfood on that one.

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Originally Posted by Rea

I do understand what you're saying there. I suppose I'm trying to say more that I wouldn't personally get involve in it unless I felt there was danger to anyone. I certainly wouldn't promote letting him buy a new burm if this was the question, and seeing as he just got a baby for xmas, that does make me nervous. But if he already has them, the damage to the hobby could come either way. If you turn him in, he'll look irresponsible and lawmakers will push for stricter laws. If he's caught on his own, the same thing will happen. If he was buying a new one, certainly stop him. And if he's just gotten a new one, perhaps I'll have to change my opinion, as he obviously doesn't plan on cutting burms from his hobby. But if he simply owned a burm or two, I wouldn't call him on it, I guess is all I'm saying.

But Toyoto, if he does look like he plans on extending this hobby, perhaps you should alert someone. I don't want to hear about some guy in New York with a dozen adult burms in his house and have the newspapers go crazy... I'll have to conceed to eatgoodfood on that one.

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I just spoke with my wife about the issue, and she said pretty much exactly what you just said here, Rea. And when I told her that he just got a new one, she said that thats when something should be done. If he is buying illegal snakes in NY that means someone is producing them illegally or transporting them across state lines illegally. That is bad for the hobby. Do you know where he got the new snake from? I suppose you could look at it similarly to drugs, dont necessarily go after the user, but the dealer, if you know what I mean. I will have to agree with Rea though, that wether something happens due to him, or you turn him in, it could still cause damage to the hobby.

In a perfect world, you could report him and then spin it where the reptile hobby community is policing itself and trying to do the responsible thing. Unfortunately we don't live in that world and so the media would spin it sensationally, which would not reflect well on the hobby.

I do like the analogy about the drugs though. When you consider you can sit there sipping a martini, but would report the drug dealer next door, that about sums it up. They are both mind altering substances but one is legal and one is not. However, we need to remember that when you turn in the drug dealer they don't try to take your gin away.

Quite the conundrum.

Do the right thing...................... stay out of his business.. Remember, thats what got us in this mess that were into today. A bunch of people trying to tell us whats right for us. Morality is when you see someone kicking a dog, thats when you intervene. The police arent gonna give you a metal, nor are the politicians gonna say "you know what, maby those big snake keepers are moral people, maby we should change the laws". All thats going to end up hapening is some guy is going to loose his pets. Now, if the animals are living in filth, he dosent deserve them.

spooky

I hear a lot of speculation and not a lot of factualization.

Do you KNOW he didn't get the burm legally? If he's grandfathered in, does it make any difference that he got a baby for xmas when come summer time he could have dozens, all legally?

Are YOU so superior that you feel comfortable turning him in? Already the answer to this is no as you have already tried to get someone else to do your dirty work for you.

Get some facts, real actual proven facts, or sit the heck down and shut the heck up.

You have no duty to report any crime unless it is a felony.

My personal ethics dictate I would act in the best interest of the animal. If it is well taken care of, but would be destroyed if turned over to the authorities, I'd probably leave the situation alone. If the animal is not being well taken care of, AND it is against a local or state code/law to keep them, I'd probably point the authorities to the facebook pictures.

If I know nothing but the fact there might be a burm in captivity in a state where there is some legislation preventing most of it, I'd say it's none of my business.

As far as I know any snakes bought after 2005 are illegal. I won't call. I don't think I could have anyways BC I would hate anyone who did it to me.

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Originally Posted by toyota89

As far as I know any snakes bought after 2005 are illegal. I won't call. I don't think I could have anyways BC I would hate anyone who did it to me.

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Your moral compass may be in need of a tune up.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

Do the right thing...................... stay out of his business.. Remember, thats what got us in this mess that were into today. A bunch of people trying to tell us whats right for us. Morality is when you see someone kicking a dog, thats when you intervene. The police arent gonna give you a metal, nor are the politicians gonna say "you know what, maby those big snake keepers are moral people, maby we should change the laws". All thats going to end up hapening is some guy is going to loose his pets. Now, if the animals are living in filth, he dosent deserve them.

spooky

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I believe the OP is trying to do the right thing. The debate becomes exactly what that is. Would reporting a crime be "the right thing"? Should someone "stay out of a persons business", if that business is child pornography? Webster does not refer to kicking dogs but rather defines morality as "conformity to ideals of right human conduct." That would be both reptile and non reptile owning humans.

I am not taking a side. I have my opinions but have not expressed them. I neither encourage nor discourage the OP to act. I am simply contemplating the "what ifs". Your response seems to be more of a blanket statement that will serve your/our interests but may or may not be factual. There are many facets that have put the reptile hobby in the mess/predicament it is in. "A bunch of people telling is whats right for us", is the result of that, not the cause.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

I believe the OP is trying to do the right thing. The debate becomes exactly what that is. Would reporting a crime be "the right thing"? Should someone "stay out of a persons business", if that business is child pornography? Webster does not refer to kicking dogs but rather defines morality as "conformity to ideals of right human conduct." That would be both reptile and non reptile owning humans.

I am not taking a side. I have my opinions but have not expressed them. I neither encourage nor discourage the OP to act. I am simply contemplating the "what ifs". Your response seems to be more of a blanket statement that will serve your/our interests but may or may not be factual. There are many facets that have put the reptile hobby in the mess/predicament it is in. "A bunch of people telling is whats right for us", is the result of that, not the cause.

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So your compairing child porn to a snake,,, REALLY? And my "blanket statement" as far as Im concerned is factual. People need to keep their nose in their own business. PERIOD. A fine example, Mayor Bloomberg. Just because he feels like those poor New Yorkers shouldent drink a large soda, does that really give him the right to make that call? The OP wasent trying to do the right thing, the OP was wanting someone to tell him/her what the right thing was. Maby the OP should seek the advice of Bloomberg.
spooky

Personally I would keep my nose out of other people's business...especially if you and he had a falling out....it could very much make you look like the bad guy trying to seek vengeance on someone you are no longer friendly with.


If they are on FB with pictures then obviously they have accepted the risks of law enforcement seeing the photos and taking action.

Are they allowed with state/ federal permits in NY? Maybe the dude has the correct permits or has been grandfather claused in? (kinda hard to fill in the blanks without knowing more about the person with the snakes and the state laws).

WOW. Wonder if anyone here would report the rest of us, if or when ball pythons become illegal to own? And comparing owning a snake to owning child porn is pretty ludicrous.

I guess it was alright with you that he owned the Burm when you were friends, but now its not?

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

So your compairing child porn to a snake,,, REALLY? And my "blanket statement" as far as Im concerned is factual. People need to keep their nose in their own business. PERIOD. A fine example, Mayor Bloomberg. Just because he feels like those poor New Yorkers shouldent drink a large soda, does that really give him the right to make that call? The OP wasent trying to do the right thing, the OP was wanting someone to tell him/her what the right thing was. Maby the OP should seek the advice of Bloomberg.
spooky

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Do you really think that my reference is a comparison between keeping snakes and child porn? That is taking things a litlle bit to literal. If I were to react similarly then I would ask, "Are you really comparing keeping snakes to drinking soda?" You stated people should mind their own business. I simply pointed out that this is a blanket statement and does not always apply in every instance. Though my example is extreme some people can't differentiate when it is more subtle than a sledge hammer. And yes, the OP is asking what is the right thing. However, right vs wrong seems to be in some peoples opinions, a matter of what works best for them. I think right vs wrong should be a little more straight forward then that.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

WOW. Wonder if anyone here would report the rest of us, if or when ball pythons become illegal to own? And comparing owning a snake to owning child porn is pretty ludicrous.

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As to the comparison, I will refer you to the first part of my response to Spooky.

I wouldn't know if someone on this forum would report me for having a ball python were it to become illegal. But if it were made illegal, and I were to continue to keep ball pythons, I would be breaking the law and it would be a crime. It would be wrong, pure and simple regardless of how much I disagreed. We tend to be less bothered by people breaking rules/committing crimes that we disagree with. Still doesn't make it legal. I am no saint and never claim to be. My response was just to provoke thought and discussion, not to impune or criticize, nor to steer the OP in any direction. And with regard to the OP having burms and now the other guy, I will leave you with another comparison which I hope all will take with the spirit in which it is intended.

How many people will drive over the speed limit, but will be upset by someone ripping past them on the freeway at a very high speed. We are alright with are own indiscretions until someone pushes it to the a place we are unwilling to go. Then we say they are wrong and will rationalize the difference as being a matter of safety or whatevr. But in fact both are a violation of the same law.

YOUR quote "Would reporting a crime be "the right thing"? Should someone "stay out of a persons business", if that business is child pornography?". You said it, not me.
I dident compair keeping snakes to drinking soda. My comment about the soda was to add foundation to the fact that people need to stay out of others business.

"How many people will drive over the speed limit, but will be upset by someone ripping past them on the freeway at a very high speed. We are alright with are own indiscretions until someone pushes it to the a place we are unwilling to go."

Ill go there. I drive above the speed limit (usualy 5-10mph over as the rest of trafic) and when I see someone coming up on me at a high rate of speed, I get over, out of their way. I dont care how fast there going. At the end of the day, when you compair the #'s to people on the road that dont speed to the people that do speed (15-20+mph), the speeders are a fraction of a percent.... Now, hang on to that thought and cary it to the "snake world". Out of thousands and thousands of giant snake owners that were responsible, how many fatality cases are there in one year? fractions of a fraction of a percent. Now, why again do we/I NEED someone to tell me what to do, or whats "right or wrong"? I dont, but theres always someone that wants to stick their nose in someone elses business.

BTW, nothing against you, but debating is the only way to let people decide for themselfs what to choose.
spooky

i would agree with some people and just stay out of his business.

Personally, I am WAY more concerned about the fact that you say he has/had a few venomous snakes as well, but you didn't seem 100% positive he still had them, or even that you knew more than that he at some point in time had been in possession of them. It's a LOT more dangerous if those little puppies end up getting out and into a neighbors' garage, or have an unfortunate run-in with a kid playing outside and sees the "pretty snake". I know that sounds really extreme, but from the information we've been given, there's no way to determine whether this guy is a responsible owner or not. Venomous snakes are not second-chance animals, and for all we know he could have anything from a Copperhead to a Taipan. That sounds like a much bigger problem than his Burms.

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Originally Posted by xFenrir

Personally, I am WAY more concerned about the fact that you say he has/had a few venomous snakes as well, but you didn't seem 100% positive he still had them, or even that you knew more than that he at some point in time had been in possession of them. It's a LOT more dangerous if those little puppies end up getting out and into a neighbors' garage, or have an unfortunate run-in with a kid playing outside and sees the "pretty snake". I know that sounds really extreme, but from the information we've been given, there's no way to determine whether this guy is a responsible owner or not. Venomous snakes are not second-chance animals, and for all we know he could have anything from a Copperhead to a Taipan. That sounds like a much bigger problem than his Burms.

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Where are you getting the impression that any of these supposed animals are improperly or unsafely housed or kept? The only channel of information we have on this stuff is the the OP, and even if he'd been highly detail-oriented in his description of the situation, which he hasn't, we'd still only be getting one side of the story, and that from someone who admits to a "falling out" with the person on the other side of the story. It's not exactly useful testimony, let alone reliable.

I'm as concerned for the safety of the public as the next guy, but you're over-amping the worry factor on this in a big way. If there was more and clearer information available, you might have a point here, but as it stands, we can't do anything but speculate based on assumptions of unknown quality, and that really doesn't get us anywhere useful.

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Originally Posted by xFenrir

Personally, I am WAY more concerned about the fact that you say he has/had a few venomous snakes as well, but you didn't seem 100% positive he still had them, or even that you knew more than that he at some point in time had been in possession of them. It's a LOT more dangerous if those little puppies end up getting out and into a neighbors' garage, or have an unfortunate run-in with a kid playing outside and sees the "pretty snake". I know that sounds really extreme, but from the information we've been given, there's no way to determine whether this guy is a responsible owner or not. Venomous snakes are not second-chance animals, and for all we know he could have anything from a Copperhead to a Taipan. That sounds like a much bigger problem than his Burms.

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And THIS, this right here, is how bruhahas gets started.

Someone who knows NOTHING has speculated that someone MIGHT have venomous and now someone else who has NO facts has an elevated heart rate and concerns that may well have NO basis in fact.

When you don't know sugar from shinola, just shut your pie hole and we'll ALL have better lives with our scaly friends.

Who here would give up their snakes if a ban was enacted?

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

Who here would give up their snakes if a ban was enacted?

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I will give them rope coiled in a ball painted pretty, it's a snake I promise now don't look in the bag and skedaddle!

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

Who here would give up their snakes if a ban was enacted?

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Foolish to ask, even more foolish to answer.

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Originally Posted by xFenrir

I know that sounds really extreme, but from the information we've been given, there's no way to determine whether this guy is a responsible owner or not.

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Let me clarify my whole point of posting.

He says that the guy had venomous snakes, but now is unsure if he does. That's all the information that was given. If the guy is buying Burms and doesn't know that they're illegal now, or is buying Burms regardless knowing that they're illegal, it raises a concern that he's got something he shouldn't. That's what I'm saying. I never ONCE said he wasn't running a perfect setup and/or didn't know what he was doing. Heck, the guy could be one of the best of the best. I was simply saying that in the case of someone getting in trouble, the venomous snakes would be the ones that really threw everyone into a huge b!tchfit and that the media/society would have a LOT more fun running THAT in the tabloids than a python. That's what I meant with my "I'd be WAY more concerned about the venomous snakes" bit. It seemed kinda funny to me that the OP was debating turning in the guy for the Burm, yet seemed pretty nonchalant about the venomous.

But thanks for jumping on me anyway. :gj: We can all have a healthy conversation here without cursing people out, thank you.

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Originally Posted by xFenrir

We can all have a healthy conversation here without cursing people out, thank you.

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Sure. But why do I have to communicate in a way that makes you comfortable? Maybe I write what I do, use the words that I do, purposely. Perhaps if some were a tad clearer in their communication such tender hinies could be spared the rod, so to speak.

Had I told you that you were brilliant and had a great point, you'd be all over gushing with pride, but, because I used a word YOU don't much care for, you're butthurt over the word, not your apparent over reaction to factless speculation. Why is that? Why can I, or anyone say what is considered polite or pleasant, but not, using the very same language, use words that describe things neither polite nor pleasant?

Is that like eating your cake and having it too because, to me, it is. All words allowed or no words allowed is really how it should be. Why should any have to limit their vocabulary and ability to make a cogent point in order not to offend some namby pamby rump puffer?

I'm also pretty sure that had I "cursing people out," you in particular, you'd know it. So far, I haven't.

Why is it foolish to ask?

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

Why is it foolish to ask?

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Use your brain skully, I'm done here.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm also pretty sure that had I "cursing people out," you in particular, you'd know it. So far, I haven't.

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Your'e the one that got a warning for your reponse to xFenrir

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Sure. But why do I have to communicate in a way that makes you comfortable? Maybe I write what I do, use the words that I do, purposely. Perhaps if some were a tad clearer in their communication such tender hinies could be spared the rod, so to speak.

Had I told you that you were brilliant and had a great point, you'd be all over gushing with pride, but, because I used a word YOU don't much care for, you're butthurt over the word, not your apparent over reaction to factless speculation. Why is that? Why can I, or anyone say what is considered polite or pleasant, but not, using the very same language, use words that describe things neither polite nor pleasant?

Is that like eating your cake and having it too because, to me, it is. All words allowed or no words allowed is really how it should be. Why should any have to limit their vocabulary and ability to make a cogent point in order not to offend some namby pamby rump puffer?

I'm also pretty sure that had I "cursing people out," you in particular, you'd know it. So far, I haven't.

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Nope, you're entitled to every opinion you choose to share. Nothing you said makes me uncomfortable or even upset; my point was merely that you chose to tell me to basically butt out with unneeded strong language because my opinion and concerns to the OP "might" scare someone. There's no need to jump on anyone, treat others how you like to be treated and all that jazz. I went on the information given, and voiced my opinion that if the OP wanted to be concerned about anything, I would choose the venomous snakes as the priority. As for praise, I expect none. After all, it's just my opinion. It's not like I'm gonna win an award for making a good point on the internet. :)

But I don't mind clarifying my points. I wasn't trying to scare anyone, and I certainly don't think that the OP's friend should get the cops called on him without knowing for sure what's going on. I just couldn't believe that the OP seemed to not care either way about the venomous. There's so many things that could go wrong, and it would be worth just trying to check up on the guy (even if you just went through the mutual friend) and make sure everything is as it should be. If the guy is running a legit setup, well then I kinda feel that whatever problems he runs into the law with are his to deal with. But if there's problems, it would be a good idea to see what can be done to try and get them righted. At least I feel that would be the best way to settle this whole thing.


The last thing I wanna do is start a fight, and I apologize if I came off as seeming high-and-mighty.

Wilomn, Im with you, but no matter, it s a different generation. A generation of ME,ME,ME..... theyve been fed their whole life (20+/-) year life that they are always right and they have never been tought to respect the laws of the land and the simple understanding to respect their elders. so this is what you get. A generation that is easily offended, and a generation that thinks (for some unGodly reason) that the general populus should give a rats arse about what they think.
I feel sorry for the generations to come, and to be honest,,,,,,,,,, Im glad im half through my cycle. The future is grim.

spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

Wilomn, Im with you, but no matter, it s a different generation. A generation of ME,ME,ME..... theyve been fed their whole life (20+/-) year life that they are always right and they have never been tought to respect the laws of the land and the simple understanding to respect their elders. so this is what you get. A generation that is easily offended, and a generation that thinks (for some unGodly reason) that the general populus should give a rats arse about what they think.
I feel sorry for the generations to come, and to be honest,,,,,,,,,, Im glad im half through my cycle. The future is grim.

spooky

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... All I said was that there was no need for the strong language. Was I rude? Was I demanding that s/he take back what they said? Did I demand an apology? No. I even think I responded in a very nice fashion, and even apologized for any misunderstandings I might have given with my post and was more than happy to explain myself further. I WAS taught to respect my elders, but I was also taught that you need to give respect to earn it. Why should you command respect from me if you are not willing to give it? Just because you were born before me? You can get foul or talk down to me, but if I turned and did the same to you, I'm just some ignorant kid who's mouthing off? That seems hardly fair. I've learned that age doesn't always make you smarter, or wiser, or any more of a better person than anyone else. You know what was drilled into me from day one?

You get what you give. If you don't wanna give it, don't expect to get it.

fair enough........................ maby there is hope.

spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

Wilomn, Im with you, but no matter, it s a different generation. A generation of ME,ME,ME..... theyve been fed their whole life (20+/-) year life that they are always right and they have never been tought to respect the laws of the land and the simple understanding to respect their elders. so this is what you get. A generation that is easily offended, and a generation that thinks (for some unGodly reason) that the general populus should give a rats arse about what they think.
I feel sorry for the generations to come, and to be honest,,,,,,,,,, Im glad im half through my cycle. The future is grim.

spooky

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I have to say that this is a very wide generalization for anyone under or at a quarter of a centry old. It's not a generation of ME ME ME, if anything its a generation of impatience and NOW. While I can't deny there are plenty of people that you will find on forums who are very opinionated they probably do believe it's all about them, to say that the future is grim because of a VERY gross over generalization is unneeded.

Sure this is just my opinion and thoughts on your opinion, and that's what a forum is all about - people voicing their thoughts and opinions so that one person, the op, can come to a conclusion based on the thoughts of many. There may be right and wrong answers for a lot of things, but when it comes to opinions it's not so clear cut. So go ahead, pitty our generation... for your generation is the one I pitty. My opinion.


And for what its worth - it's your generation that screwed up our environment, and it's my mission that my generation starts to fix it. So where's this respect?

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Originally Posted by xFenrir

You get what you give. If you don't wanna give it, don't expect to get it.

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I also don't make many ASSumptions.

You seem to have ASSumed that I want, need, or desire your respect. I mean no ill will, but I don't. Don't need it, don't care what you do with it or who you give it too. This goes not only for you.

I give respect, and I have not disrespected you as yet, as I see fit and not because I want it in return, but because I think it is deserved. Old, young, boy, girl or undecided, makes no difference to ME.

You seem to think that just because you're polite and nice and keep your language PG that you deserve respect. Maybe you do, but all of that, two quarters and some luck will get you a phone call. Nice online means diddly in real life so why should I pretend otherwise?

I have not disrespected you, if anything I've treated you as I would be treated. No BS, to the point, tell me what you mean and let me do the same. I don't see it often, but it is my way. If you wish to feel disrespected, have at it. You want to see disrespect? Go to Fauna and look up mitch behm or ed clark. I HEARTILY disrespect those two. It should be readily apparent.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

And for what its worth - it's your generation that screwed up our environment, and it's my mission that my generation starts to fix it. So where's this respect?

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Actually squirt, this is not entirely true. You go back and look at your history books and see if you can find what I'm talking about.

As far as where's the respect? I could tell you, but I think you might feel disrespected and I don't want to hurt your feelings.

Oh I guess my education failed me with my degree in conservation biology.

Who's mad? Not I. I've read your post with Ed Clark. I have no beef with you nor anyone else here. But in the same tense you do not have my respect nor do I care to have yours.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

I have to say that this is a very wide generalization for anyone under or at a quarter of a centry old. It's not a generation of ME ME ME, if anything its a generation of impatience and NOW. While I can't deny there are plenty of people that you will find on forums who are very opinionated they probably do believe it's all about them, to say that the future is grim because of a VERY gross over generalization is unneeded.

Sure this is just my opinion and thoughts on your opinion, and that's what a forum is all about - people voicing their thoughts and opinions so that one person, the op, can come to a conclusion based on the thoughts of many. There may be right and wrong answers for a lot of things, but when it comes to opinions it's not so clear cut. So go ahead, pitty our generation... for your generation is the one I pitty. My opinion.


And for what its worth - it's your generation that screwed up our environment, and it's my mission that my generation starts to fix it. So where's this respect?

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my hats off to you! seems like you have a good head on your solders, as does xFenrir. Its about language, sitting down with other people and descussing opinions. I respect your opinions as I hope you do mine. and please, dont pitty me. I have drank clean water from streams, I have seen elk fight in the wild, Iv touched baby deer hiding in brush. Generations to come will need to steralize their water, see nature as it was, only on hi def TV's, and if they want to put their hand on nature, theyll need to go to a zoo (posibaly a virtual zoo). Please dont pitty me. Im satisfied.
Not only is it my generation thats has screwed up the enviroment, but the one before mine, AND YOURS as well. Sadly, it cant be stoped.

spooky

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I also don't make many ASSumptions.

You seem to have ASSumed that I want, need, or desire your respect. I mean no ill will, but I don't. Don't need it, don't care what you do with it or who you give it too. This goes not only for you.

I give respect, and I have not disrespected you as yet, as I see fit and not because I want it in return, but because I think it is deserved. Old, young, boy, girl or undecided, makes no difference to ME.

You seem to think that just because you're polite and nice and keep your language PG that you deserve respect. Maybe you do, but all of that, two quarters and some luck will get you a phone call. Nice online means diddly in real life so why should I pretend otherwise?

I have not disrespected you, if anything I've treated you as I would be treated. No BS, to the point, tell me what you mean and let me do the same. I don't see it often, but it is my way. If you wish to feel disrespected, have at it. You want to see disrespect? Go to Fauna and look up mitch behm or ed clark. I HEARTILY disrespect those two. It should be readily apparent.

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Never said you did. I was responding to Mr. Spooky's remark about my generation, and how I felt about it. Don't point the ASSumed finger at me just yet, because my post wasn't directed at you. Like I had said to you before, you act how you see fit. You haven't offended me by any stretch, I just feel that when someone directs a comment at me I'm more than within my rights to respond with my opinion, just like you're totally entitled to do the same. I may not agree with what you're saying, but that's life and you're always gonna run into people that don't agree with you so why bother letting it ruffle your feathers? Again, like I said, I've got no problem explaining or expounding upon my opinions or remarks.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

my hats off to you! seems like you have a good head on your solders, as does xFenrir. Its about language, sitting down with other people and descussing opinions. I respect your opinions as I hope you do mine. and please, dont pitty me. I have drank clean water from streams, I have seen elk fight in the wild, Iv touched baby deer hiding in brush. Generations to come will need to steralize their water, see nature as it was, only on hi def TV's, and if they want to put their hand on nature, theyll need to go to a zoo. Please dont pitty me. Im satisfied.
spooky

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Thank our parents, they the ones dun raised us right. :P

I always thought my parents were "stupid" and "lame" growing up, then one day I looked at the stereotypes my generation was making and went "... thanks, mom and dad."

back on topic...... DONT BE A RAT!
spooky

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Originally Posted by xFenrir

Thank our parents, they the ones dun raised us right. :P

I always thought my parents were "stupid" and "lame" growing up, then one day I looked at the stereotypes my generation was making and went "... thanks, mom and dad."

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Was it Mark twain that said "I'm amazed at how smart my father became from the time I was 13 to the time I became 18" . . .

but yes, on the topic - don't be a rat as put. It hurts more than it helps. The only reason to turn someone in is if they are directly hurting you or your family by what they are doing. It does not bode well for the hobby what they are doing, but it would benefit the hobby nothing for headlines to read "20+ GIANT SNAKES seized at local NY Resident SNAKE KEEPER". Sad day. . .

At Spooky - Agreed it's been many generations of screw up to this environmental disaster - Serj Tankian said it best "We have built our lives. Without nature in mind. So that we've become the disease, But we won't go" So to better rephrase what I said - It is my hope and belief that this generation will begin to right the wrong that we have done against the many dying species.

Cheers

cheers!

jason

Since it's hard to tell what's going on from the OP's limited knowledge (no offense, just meaning you don't know the guy with the Burms) I think your best course of action is to try and ask your mutual friend to see if everything's on the level so to speak, and offer to give advice if he wants it. It could be the guy might be a great keeper but has no idea about the laws, and might just need to be notified that what he's doing isn't legal in the cut-and-dry sense. Whatever he does or doesn't do after that will be on him.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

back on topic...... DONT BE A RAT!
spooky

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Be careful, this kind of single-minded attitude towards toeing the line when it comes to society's accepted behaviors is a terrible thing. Not actively participating in law enforcement, particularly regarding controversial regulation, is one thing. Ignoring the physical abuse of a neighboring child, the drunken driving of a friend or acquaintance, or the pickpocket on the subway because "it's none of your business" is narcissistic at best, and criminal at worst.

I'm not sure about laws all across the country, but failing to report certain crimes, usually felonies but particularly those of the most heinous nature, is often a crime itself.

The OP's concerns bring up a difficult question to answer, which individuals and societies all over struggle with daily: Where is the line drawn where one has a moral or legal duty to render aid or report misconduct versus allowing private matters to be settled without your interference?

I work closely with communities that struggle with destructive crime, and cultures of "don't snitch" handcuff any attempts to fight it. In many cases this is because of decades of poor relations between the communities and law enforcement. We've made huge advances with those problems, but it is still an uphill battle.

There are times when the right course of action is to stand up and speak.