OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

I right now have over 20 Ball Pythons and yes I will breed some of them.
Anyway my friends keep telling me they should be in big tanks rather than my system.
They have room to move around I adjust the tubs to the size of the snake but its so much easier to keep the temp and humidity.
But everyone and i don't have any friends who have snakes keeps hounding me to get aquariums for them.
I like my system its clean and easy to care for am I wrong.
All my snakes get handled and spend time outside there place unless they seem to get stressed.

Try explaining to these people WHY they are in a rack and not in aquariums.. aquariums are for fish not for snakes, especially ball pythons. Tell them the habits of balls and it will make more sense to them hopefully.

20+ Aquariums is just way too much! Your looking at an entire room for all of them.... Or one corner of a room with 2 racks..... Racks are are just better for the keeper and the animals. They are less clear "less stress for the animal" they are easier to clean and like you mentioned they hold heat and humidity better. I'd tell your friend to back off and do some research. Balls spend 80-90% of their lives in rodent holes cramped up, and sitting rodent feces.... They are more than happy with a nice, clean, and warm tub!

All the non snake people I know just cannot fathom why we keep our snakes in "tupperware containers". They don't understand and I don't expect them too because they don't have a clue (even when I explain it to them). If it's obvious your snakes are healthy and well fed then they should know that you're obviously doing something right :)

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Originally Posted by BP2

20+ Aquariums is just way too much! Your looking at an entire room for all of them.... Or one corner of a room with 2 racks..... Racks are are just better for the keeper and the animals. They are less clear "less stress for the animal" they are easier to clean and like you mentioned they hold heat and humidity better. I'd tell your friend to back off and do some research. Balls spend 80-90% of their lives in rodent holes cramped up, and sitting rodent feces.... They are more than happy with a nice, clean, and warm tub!

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Thanks I will make them read this:)

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

All the non snake people I know just cannot fathom why we keep our snakes in "tupperware containers". They don't understand and I don't expect them too because they don't have a clue (even when I explain it to them). If it's obvious your snakes are healthy and well fed then they should know that you're obviously doing something right :)

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They are in good health weight and size and seem a lot more relaxed at least to me.

Tell In the words of Johnny Depp tell your friends "You can place your lips upon my posterior and kiss it repeatedly." LOL Even though you should respect the advice of your friends, if it's on a subject they have little to no experience with then they should butt out in my opinion. I think they are just mad because they can't easily view them without opening the tubs lol. When I moved my two into my rack my mom complained about just that. With a pouty face she said "awww now I can't just walk by and look at them" :( She is too scared to open the tubs and take one out lol

I agree with the others: your friends simply do not understand ball pythons. They are probably used to seeing snakes in aquariums and not in a rack. My family still has issues with my snakes being in a rack system. My mother still comes in and wants to "see" my ball pythons. I still have to explain to her that they are usually hiding anyway, so if she wants to see one, she has to take it out. For her pleasure, I do have one corn snake in a tank. She's not for breeding and is just a pet anyway (so I say this now...). However, she still doesn't like the fact that the corn snake is always hiding too xD

While your snakes are probably healthy, I have a big gripe with keepers that just keep snakes in a rack on newspaper and a water bowl.

It shows no passion at all. This is one of my rattlesnakes tanks: http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/29/y7usaje2.jpg

All of the talk saying a rack is less stressful is rubbish. If the set up is correct, there is no reason for any snake to be stressed. I keep my baby rattlers in 3ft Vivs, even when I've had ones that are a few weeks old. None have ever missed a feed because they have plenty of hiding spaces etc.

One of my best friends keeps around 70 rattlesnakes, every single one is in a viv. Every single one has a naturalistic enclosure, that's how it should be. Even when I own 100 odd snakes, there is no way I won't have them all in Vivs, after all they're my pride and joy.

Crot, venomous are a different story. Ball Pythons thrive better in the seclusion of a tub. They don't care what their substrate looks like as long as its clean and functional. You can have a nice big viv but I promise that it has a higher Ammonia concentration from the urates than you will find in properly kept rack systems. Each keeper can have their own way about doing things, and that's fine. I use to have wall to wall 40 gallon breeder tanks, with tons of lights and UTH, and yeah my snakes thrived, never missed a meal, and were generally happy in appearance. But I also kept 3 sides of the tanks covered at all times, and live in a place where humidity is very easy to accomplish with an open screen top unlike some areas.

Snakes are secretive in nature, and do cram themselves in small corners. I would NEVER keep a crot in a tub since you can not monitor them easily or safely without using hooks to open the tub every time, and hope you have a good lableing system. But for all my pythons and colubrids I have no issues at all with tubs. I also use PVC enclosures for my giants (Retics, Burmese, Coastal Carpets, BCI), and they are amazing setups in their own mind, and look like a fantastic display, but as soon as I moved some of my female jungles from the PVC tanks and into tubs, they started growing at a faster rate? What changed, only the cage. Feeding times, prey size, and temperature all remained the same. Could it be because they received less exercise? Possibly, but the snakes are lean and not obese.

Just because you chose to do enclosures one way, like many people do, it doesn't mean that the others are wrong. As long as your snakes have the proper temperature gradients, humidity, enclosure size, and a proper number of areas to hide, your doing things fine regardless of how you do it. Racks are not meant for dogs and cats or birds and fish. They are meant for reptiles. This is why they work so well.

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Crot, venomous are a different story. Ball Pythons thrive better in the seclusion of a tub. They don't care what their substrate looks like as long as its clean and functional. You can have a nice big viv but I promise that it has a higher Ammonia concentration from the urates than you will find in properly kept rack systems. Each keeper can have their own way about doing things, and that's fine. I use to have wall to wall 40 gallon breeder tanks, with tons of lights and UTH, and yeah my snakes thrived, never missed a meal, and were generally happy in appearance. But I also kept 3 sides of the tanks covered at all times, and live in a place where humidity is very easy to accomplish with an open screen top unlike some areas.

Snakes are secretive in nature, and do cram themselves in small corners. I would NEVER keep a crot in a tub since you can not monitor them easily or safely without using hooks to open the tub every time, and hope you have a good lableing system. But for all my pythons and colubrids I have no issues at all with tubs. I also use PVC enclosures for my giants (Retics, Burmese, Coastal Carpets, BCI), and they are amazing setups in their own mind, and look like a fantastic display, but as soon as I moved some of my female jungles from the PVC tanks and into tubs, they started growing at a faster rate? What changed, only the cage. Feeding times, prey size, and temperature all remained the same. Could it be because they received less exercise? Possibly, but the snakes are lean and not obese.

Just because you chose to do enclosures one way, like many people do, it doesn't mean that the others are wrong. As long as your snakes have the proper temperature gradients, humidity, enclosure size, and a proper number of areas to hide, your doing things fine regardless of how you do it. Racks are not meant for dogs and cats or birds and fish. They are meant for reptiles. This is why they work so well.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Crot, venomous are a different story. Ball Pythons thrive better in the seclusion of a tub. They don't care what their substrate looks like as long as its clean and functional. You can have a nice big viv but I promise that it has a higher Ammonia concentration from the urates than you will find in properly kept rack systems. Each keeper can have their own way about doing things, and that's fine. I use to have wall to wall 40 gallon breeder tanks, with tons of lights and UTH, and yeah my snakes thrived, never missed a meal, and were generally happy in appearance. But I also kept 3 sides of the tanks covered at all times, and live in a place where humidity is very easy to accomplish with an open screen top unlike some areas.

Snakes are secretive in nature, and do cram themselves in small corners. I would NEVER keep a crot in a tub since you can not monitor them easily or safely without using hooks to open the tub every time, and hope you have a good lableing system. But for all my pythons and colubrids I have no issues at all with tubs. I also use PVC enclosures for my giants (Retics, Burmese, Coastal Carpets, BCI), and they are amazing setups in their own mind, and look like a fantastic display, but as soon as I moved some of my female jungles from the PVC tanks and into tubs, they started growing at a faster rate? What changed, only the cage. Feeding times, prey size, and temperature all remained the same. Could it be because they received less exercise? Possibly, but the snakes are lean and not obese.

Just because you chose to do enclosures one way, like many people do, it doesn't mean that the others are wrong. As long as your snakes have the proper temperature gradients, humidity, enclosure size, and a proper number of areas to hide, your doing things fine regardless of how you do it. Racks are not meant for dogs and cats or birds and fish. They are meant for reptiles. This is why they work so well.

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Crot, venomous are a different story. Ball Pythons thrive better in the seclusion of a tub. They don't care what their substrate looks like as long as its clean and functional. You can have a nice big viv but I promise that it has a higher Ammonia concentration from the urates than you will find in properly kept rack systems. Each keeper can have their own way about doing things, and that's fine. I use to have wall to wall 40 gallon breeder tanks, with tons of lights and UTH, and yeah my snakes thrived, never missed a meal, and were generally happy in appearance. But I also kept 3 sides of the tanks covered at all times, and live in a place where humidity is very easy to accomplish with an open screen top unlike some areas.

Snakes are secretive in nature, and do cram themselves in small corners. I would NEVER keep a crot in a tub since you can not monitor them easily or safely without using hooks to open the tub every time, and hope you have a good lableing system. But for all my pythons and colubrids I have no issues at all with tubs. I also use PVC enclosures for my giants (Retics, Burmese, Coastal Carpets, BCI), and they are amazing setups in their own mind, and look like a fantastic display, but as soon as I moved some of my female jungles from the PVC tanks and into tubs, they started growing at a faster rate? What changed, only the cage. Feeding times, prey size, and temperature all remained the same. Could it be because they received less exercise? Possibly, but the snakes are lean and not obese.

Just because you chose to do enclosures one way, like many people do, it doesn't mean that the others are wrong. As long as your snakes have the proper temperature gradients, humidity, enclosure size, and a proper number of areas to hide, your doing things fine regardless of how you do it. Racks are not meant for dogs and cats or birds and fish. They are meant for reptiles. This is why they work so well.

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First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.

You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.

People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

Tell your friends they don't know what they're talking about.

Crot -
You vastly overestimate the brain function of these animals. The lowest stress housing is the one where the conditions they seek in the wild are met. Humidity, heat gradient, water, food, shelter. That's it buddy. They don't want bright light, they don't want you staring at them, they don't want you misting them all the time. They don't want to choose between an optimal hide for their security and having the right temperature. They don't want a scenic view of the natural wood branch you have sitting in air space in their enclosure that they have no intention to ever need or 'want.' Not only do they not want those things, but you add stress by allowing some of those things. Stress is what drives them to seek proper humidity, heat, food, water, shelter. Stress can also lead to feeding strikes, sickness, and death.

When you try to provide a 'natural' living space for a pet, you're not doing them a favor. Release your snakes in the wild if that's what you're going for. One of the main responsibilities of pet ownership includes providing safer, lower stress conditions than the animal would face in its natural environment. I'm not saying that's impossible to do with a natural viv, I'm saying it makes no difference if the basic list of needs / 'wants' above is catered to.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.

You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.

People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

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I think there has to be a happy medium.
bare with me on this one

Bp owners usually say that snakes dont need big spaces because they spend x% of their time in a ball hiding in a hole in the wild.
Iva also seen bp owners say that an active snake is a stressed or hungry snake.

Could it be that snakes in the wild are eating way way less than in captivity and are sitting motionless for long periods if time not by preferance but by pure necessity? To conserve energy. Is it possible that an active snake can be in fact quite healthy beacause it has determined that it has the energy to move about?

With that being said maybe a middleground of a larger-than-tub closer be more adequate?

Let me say that i am a tub/rack user but i feel that we as owners tend to justify the easier tub setups for our own reasons. Not trying to say tubs are bad for the snakes well being in any way but to say that the tubs are the best possible option is a bit selfish on our part. Its just unreasonable to spend the so much extra time/effort/money to construct that perfect medium between comfort/size/environment that is found in the natural habitat( let alone numerous ones for more snakes).

But its human nature. You cant blame us for failing to set aside our personal preferences in order to provide such a small percentage more of comfortability for the snakes. The fact that we own these snakes in captivity at all shows how unconsciously selfish we are in the first place

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

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While I do agree with some of your points, I have to say that I can't agree that keeping snakes in a rack shows a lack of passion. I think passion for snakekeeping is better measured by how vigilant a person maintains their animals habitats (whatever they may be), and how well they care for the overall health and needs for their animals. People who have no passion for their animals tend to slack or neglect their animals' basic needs.

Personally, some of my snakes are in beautiful, elaborate, PVC display enclosures and some of them are in a rack. I provide my animals with the environment that they prefer and will thrive in. For example, my pastel BP is in a 4 foot display enclosure. Approximately 1 year ago, I attempted to switch him to a rack. He went off feed for a while, so I put him back in the display enclosure. He resumed eating like clockwork. On the flipside, I have several BP's who I attempted to put in display enclosures who refuse to eat in anything other than their tub. Every animal is different and has different preferences and a passionate keeper takes that into account and provides what is best for their animal.

BTW...your rattlesnake enclosure is beautiful!!! :D

As a breeder I provide my snakes the things they need to live well, heat, safety, food, water, vet care as needed, ect ect. When it comes the which is better for my animals my only gauge is my understand and years of experience when it comes to Python regius behaviours. I can tell you that there hasn't been anything in my almost decade of keeping experience that has lead me to believe that things like fake rocks, or natural substrate play any roll in the quality of life for the animals. I can only speak for Ball Pythons so keep that in mind. I believe that in the wild studies have shown that Python regius seeks out the same enviromental factors I provide in a rack system. Now can they be offered in a natural enclosure as well but to say that one out weighs the other is impossiable..

I'll leave the natural enclosure to my customers who spend their hard earned money on great looking snakes and rightly so want to show off their pride and joys in the most visually pleasing way possiable..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I can only speak for Ball Pythons so keep that in mind. I believe that in the wild studies have shown that Python regius seeks out the same enviromental factors I provide in a rack system. Now can they be offered in a natural enclosure as well but to say that one out weighs the other is impossiable..

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

First of all, you can keep venomous in a tub. The venom extraction facilities do exactly this, due to the need to cram in as many animals as possible for the extractions. They have a valid reason. For using small enclosures.

You cannot tell me a ball python wouldn't appreciate a larger naturalistic enclosure. I have friends with Royals in 5ft Vivs that feed perfectly well and are active.

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

There is no reason why a snake would grow faster in a smaller enclosure with the same food, apart from less exercise. A smaller space doesn't suddenly increase the nutritional value of the feeder.

People say Gaboon vipers are animals that are stressed very easily. Yet I have my two babies in 2ft tubs when they're less than a foot in size. But neither has ever shown a sign of stress. If the set up is correct, no animal will stress even if they viv is 200ft.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

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"Passion" (you must mean COMpassion) is not a word associated with snake behavior. They do not look at their captive surroundings and say, "wow, this is kind of nice". They require the right husbandry, cleanliness,food and similarity (not exact match) to their environment. Seeing them is more for us, than for them. Arboreal species require something to climb on, rattlers need dry and hot, BPs need humidity warmth, and security. They can certainly survive in larger enclosure with appropriate hides, but it is not required for them to thrive, nor does it have any impact on their breeding/life expectancy.

Its also unfair to compare tubs for venomous at extraction facilities as these are professional handlers of venomous species.

Finally, there is what is easiest (read likely to result in optimal care) for the keeper, and what the goals are. I use newspaper because if is easiest to clean, cheap, and inorganic, therefore less likely to harbor critters. I cannot imagine a major cleaning in a viv full of rattlers!

If the goal is to keep 1 or 2 specimens as simple pet, or nice morph for display, there is no harm in a viv that accomplishes that. If however one wishes to breed and keep mulitple BPs, there is similarly no harm in racks/tubs. If the snakes are eating, shedding, growing and breeding, they are being kept just fine, whether "a studio apartment, or a mansion"...LOL

Balls do move a lot...during the night. I´ve had balls in vivariums for years, and they did great. Now I use racks, and I´m ok with it, but I would love to have the money, the place and employees to clean, and keep them all in vivariums.

Because shoving a nocturnal snake into a glass tank is appropriate...:rolleyes:

We are speaking ball pythons here, not boas, carpets, rattlesnakes, etc.
Knowing how to care for a species properly means using whatever is in the best interest of the species.

Tubs > Tanks "for ball pythons"

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

It shows no passion at all.

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Spend a day with Kevin McCurley at NERD - a full day, then come back and tell us that the man has no passion. I've had the honor of spending almost three weeks with him at his facility (a week on 3 different occassions). Kevin is one of the single most passionate people I've met in this hobby.

I don't get everyone's angst about how someone ELSE chooses to keep their collection. Good on you that you keep yours the way that you do. And good on those who keep in fish tanks and good on those who keep in racks. As long as their animals are healthy and thriving - who CARES?????

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Spend a day with Kevin McCurley at NERD - a full day, then come back and tell us that the man has no passion. I've had the honor of spending almost three weeks with him at his facility (a week on 3 different occassions). Kevin is one of the single most passionate people I've met in this hobby.

I don't get everyone's angst about how someone ELSE chooses to keep their collection. Good on you that you keep yours the way that you do. And good on those who keep in fish tanks and good on those who keep in racks. As long as their animals are healthy and thriving - who CARES?????

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Couldn't have said it better myself!!!

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I will always disagree with you on this. As I will never keep any of my animals in a small enclosure, or an enclosure that doesn't represent their natural habitat. If I ever did, that would be the day I stop keeping reptiles.

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

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The tubs that i keep my bps in DO represent their natural habitat. In the wild they spend 90% of their time in rodent burrows. They go into a rodent burrow, eat the inhabitant, stay there until theyre hungry again and then go find another meal. During breeding season they obviously are more focused on breeding though lol. The climate in these burrows is similar to how i keep the climate in the tubs. Just bc theyre on newspaper instead of dirt makes NO difference to the snake.

To suggest i dont have passion for the hobby just bc the way i keep my animals isnt the way you keep yours is rude. Last time i checked aquariums were made for fish. In my opinion YOURE the one who has has a lack of passion for your animals bc youre keeping them in something designed for aquatic creatures.

I used to keep my ball pythons in tanks until they went off feed, had bad sheds, and kept trying to escape. I never thought I would keep a ball python in a rack system but I have to say now that I have them in one, there is no turning back for me. I was very adamant about not using tubs for a long time. I eventually broke down and did what is best for "my snakes." I no longer have bad sheds or animals going off feed for extended periods of time. My snakes also do not roam around looking for a way out of their tubs.

Sorry guys, i forgot the Royal Pythons evolved living on newspaper.

A lot of the time keepers keep them on newspaper because they can't be bothered with the extra time it takes to clean out a naturalistic viv...If that isn't a lack of passion then i don't know what is.

I'm not knocking the use of plastic tubs they're fine, it's the set ups. I see so many people keeping other snakes like Gaboon Vipers on newspaper, when it's a burrowing snake! How is it supposed to exercise it's wild nature - to borrow and hide. My Gaboons are in substrate an Inch and a half thick and they aren't even more than half an inch thick themselves.

You nor i can definitively say that a natural enclosure doesn't benefit the snake. After all these snakes have evolved to live in those specific habitats, so we as keepers should try to replicate that as closely as possible. Not just see money signs in our eyes, and keep everything to a minimum.

Keeping snakes on newspaper, doesn't mean you're less likely to harbor critters. Mine are all in naturalistic set ups and i've never had a break out of mites, parasites etc. It's no harder to clean a venomous tank, you take the snake out of the cage and then clean it - simple.

http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps10aab00d.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

The tubs that i keep my bps in DO represent their natural habitat. In the wild they spend 90% of their time in rodent burrows. They go into a rodent burrow, eat the inhabitant, stay there until theyre hungry again and then go find another meal. During breeding season they obviously are more focused on breeding though lol. The climate in these burrows is similar to how i keep the climate in the tubs. Just bc theyre on newspaper instead of dirt makes NO difference to the snake.

To suggest i dont have passion for the hobby just bc the way i keep my animals isnt the way you keep yours is rude. Last time i checked aquariums were made for fish. In my opinion YOURE the one who has has a lack of passion for your animals bc youre keeping them in something designed for aquatic creatures.

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It's an Exo Terra, do your research before you say it's an aquarium.

So i assume you have made a rodent burrow in your tub? I don't have any objection to the use of tubs.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I'm not saying its wrong, but it shows a lack of passion in my eyes.

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I don't see how my choice of housing can be used to measure my passion for the animals I keep. Most of my friends and family wouldn't dare to venture into my apartment because of the animals I keep, be they in tanks or tubs. Since I can't share my passion for these creatures in my own home I choose to keep them in ways that are easier to maintain and meet their needs.

The way I share my passion for them is by being a part of the local herpeteological society and participating in the shows they do. We spent an entire weekend earlier this year at a children's expo sharing our passion for herps in a way that can't be done from our homes. In my eyes passion is something that should be shared and I choose to use my resources in a way that allows me to share my passion. As long as my reptiles' needs are met, I don't see how housing should come in to play at all when it comes to judging my passion.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Sorry guys, i forgot the Royal Pythons evolved living on newspaper.

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I assume you live in a tree? You'd be totally robbed of your natural experience to live in a house. So weird.. walls? Roof? FLUSHING TOILET? get out of here! You must be suffering from some kind of psychological peril by being forced to live in these unnatural conditions.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I assume you live in a tree? You'd be totally robbed of your natural experience to live in a house. So weird.. walls? Roof? FLUSHING TOILET? get out of here! You must be suffering from some kind of psychological peril by being forced to live in these unnatural conditions.

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Oh, so Royal's have the same level of intellect that we do?

So they're able to go and work, make a living, try to better themselves and improve their surroundings? If they were able to do that, I'm sure they would opt for a much better housing standards than what most keepers give.

It would also be natural for me to not have a job etc, and just live in the Jungle. But as it happens i was born in the 20th century, times change - you can't really compare a snake to a superior race like ourselves.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I assume you live in a tree? You'd be totally robbed of your natural experience to live in a house. So weird.. walls? Roof? FLUSHING TOILET? get out of here! You must be suffering from some kind of psychological peril by being forced to live in these unnatural conditions.

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Why would humans be living in a tree as a natural environment? We didn't evolve from monkeys...

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Sorry guys, i forgot the Royal Pythons evolved living on newspaper.

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Just like your venomous evolved in a glass box, with a human staring at them, snapping pictures while they try and hide.. Do you see how asinine that sounds? Get off your high horse, and stop putting people down because they don't conform to what you believe the snake likes best. You said yourself there is no way for us to know what the snake prefers, assuming in both situations the snakes are feeding, active, disease free etc. Assuming that everyone other than yourself, or everyone who doesn't "recreate a rat burrow" in their set ups is not passionate, and/or "has dollar signs in their eyes" is flat out childish and rude. Sorry mate, but you are not better than any other person on this forum, and your little exo-terra vivs don't give you the right to put others in our hobby, with thriving beautiful snakes, down.

Coming here and sharing your beautiful animals is greatly appreciated. Giving your advice, which I'm sure you have mountains of, is also very much appreciated. (that was only slightly sarcastic...sorry, you really irked me. I don't doubt you have extensive knowledge, but I can't stand when people think they are better than everyone else) but making a swipe at the general populous of bp keepers that they are not passionate, and talking down to numerous members, is not appreciated. At all.

Crot the species have evolved as domesticated animals. They are still wild in true nature, but domesticated by selection. We do our best to accomodate their needs using tubs. So yes, Royal Pythons have evolved through domestication to live on news paper, how about that!

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Just like your venomous evolved in a glass box, with a human staring at them, snapping pictures while they try and hide.. Do you see how asinine that sounds? Get off your high horse, and stop putting people down because they don't conform to what you believe the snake likes best. You said yourself there is no way for us to know what the snake prefers, assuming in both situations the snakes are feeding, active, disease free etc. Assuming that everyone other than yourself, or everyone who doesn't "recreate a rat burrow" in their set ups is not passionate, and/or "has dollar signs in their eyes" is flat out childish and rude. Sorry mate, but you are not better than any other person on this forum, and your little exo-terra vivs don't give you the right to put others in our hobby, with thriving beautiful snakes, down.

Coming here and sharing your beautiful animals is greatly appreciated. Giving your advice, which I'm sure you have mountains of, is also very much appreciated. (that was only slightly sarcastic...sorry, you really irked me. I don't doubt you have extensive knowledge, but I can't stand when people think they are better than everyone else) but making a swipe at the general populous of bp keepers that they are not passionate, and talking down to numerous members, is not appreciated. At all.

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Nothing about captivity is natural, granted. But does that mean just because one aspect of keeping isn't, you just disregard the rest and make everything completely unnatural? Size is also another thing, a lot of the time racks are used so people can cram in as many snakes as they can. Which is wrong again, when my Gaboon Vipers are older maybe 6ft, they will be going into 10ft Viv's - not because i'm a millionaire but because i want to provide the best enclosure i can. I would rather have less snakes, and all kept in big vivs where they can exhibit their natural behaviors rather than more snakes and cramp them in racks which aren't even the length of the snake.

You seem to be under the impression that a snake will only feed/breed if it is happy and healthy...That isn't correct, it is survival. It is programmed into animals to survive and keep the species going. There are many reptiles that aren't feeding consistently, and are ridden with disease yet they will breed.

It's got nothing to do with what i keep my snakes in, you could keep yours in a cardboard box for all i care. But it's the way in which so many keepers are satisfied with providing just the bare minimum. This is my opinion, and nothing for you to be offended by, this is what i don't understand about so many reptile keepers you all get worked up so easily.

We have a voice and an opinion for a reason, to voice it.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Crot the species have evolved as domesticated animals. They are still wild in true nature, but domesticated by selection. We do our best to accomodate their needs using tubs. So yes, Royal Pythons have evolved through domestication to live on news paper, how about that!

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Oh really now? Do you understand the word evolved?

e·volve 1. a. To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
b. To work (something) out; devise: "the schemes he evolved to line his purse" (S.J. Perelman).

2. Biology To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.
3. To give off; emit.

Tell me how these ball pythons you have, have done any of what the definition of the word suggests? Maybe they've developed reading glasses to read the newspaper!!

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

It's an Exo Terra, do your research before you say it's an aquarium.

So i assume you have made a rodent burrow in your tub? I don't have any objection to the use of tubs.

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Ok fair enough. Its still made of glass though lol.

The tub IS the "rodent burrow".

I dont have any objections to how you keep your snakes either. As long as both of our snakes are thriving, who cares how we keep them?

My beef with you is I DO have an objection to you saying people who use non-naturalistic setups arent passionate. Youre entitled to that opinion, but im telling you that youre very mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Ok fair enough. Its still made of glass though lol.

The tub IS the "rodent burrow".

I dont have any objections to how you keep your snakes either. As long as both of our snakes are thriving, who cares how we keep them?

My beef with you is I DO have an objection to you saying people who use non-naturalistic setups arent passionate. Youre entitled to that opinion, but im telling you that youre very mistaken.

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Well we will have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Nothing about captivity is natural, granted. But does that mean just because one aspect of keeping isn't, you just disregard the rest and make everything completely unnatural? Size is also another thing, a lot of the time racks are used so people can cram in as many snakes as they can. Which is wrong again, when my Gaboon Vipers are older maybe 6ft, they will be going into 10ft Viv's - not because i'm a millionaire but because i want to provide the best enclosure i can. I would rather have less snakes, and all kept in big vivs where they can exhibit their natural behaviors rather than more snakes and cramp them in racks which aren't even the length of the snake.

You seem to be under the impression that a snake will only feed/breed if it is happy and healthy...That isn't correct, it is survival. It is programmed into animals to survive and keep the species going. There are many reptiles that aren't feeding consistently, and are ridden with disease yet they will breed.

It's got nothing to do with what i keep my snakes in, you could keep yours in a cardboard box for all i care. But it's the way in which so many keepers are satisfied with providing just the bare minimum. This is my opinion, and nothing for you to be offended by, this is what i don't understand about so many reptile keepers you all get worked up so easily.

We have a voice and an opinion for a reason, to voice it.

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Oh really now? Do you understand the word evolved?

e·volve 1. a. To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
b. To work (something) out; devise: "the schemes he evolved to line his purse" (S.J. Perelman).

2. Biology To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.
3. To give off; emit.

Tell me how these ball pythons you have, have done any of what the definition of the word suggests? Maybe they've developed reading glasses to read the newspaper!!

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Voicing your opinion is great, and more than welcomed. But you are not *just* voicing your opinion. You are voicing your opinion while putting down a huge majority of people who DO have a passion for their reptiles. You are on ball-pythons.net, not gaboons.net, hots.net, cobras.net or anything else. You are voicing your opinion in the BP Husbandry section, of the ball-pythons.net forum. So please, stop comparing your hots, to our bps. They are not the same, and should not be kept the same. Ball pythons do NOT thrive in large enclosures, in fact, there are quite a lot of them who will go off feed entirely in large enclosures. (This is more so for younger ones, but is not unheard of for adults).

I'm well aware of the fact that animals do not need to be healthy and happy to breed, which is why I specifically did not say "Breed". I said feeding, active, and disease free. Not one word about breeding. You put that in, because you assumed that is where I was going. Negative.

If you want to tell people that you think aspen, or cypress is better than newspaper or paper towels, and give your reasoning why (IE: humidity, burrowing/comforting, etc) it will be warmly welcomed. You don't have to flip everyone off at the same time.

You don't understand why so many of us reptile keepers get upset when someone stands on their soap box saying "Anyone who doesn't do what I do is not passionate. People who use rack systems have dollar signs for eyes" and you are surprised people are getting upset and defensive? :weirdface

And yes, I know you didn't say anyone who doesn't do what you do is wrong, but the insinuation was pretty darn close. Also, exaggeration is super fun :gj:

I'm not touching that discussion.

To the OP: It's hard for non herp keepers to stop themselves from anthropomorphizing animals when they're so used to doing it with more common mammalian pets. Telling them that the snakes aren't "happy" "sad" etc as much as they are comfortable, threatened, or hungry can be quite the task. Tubs are easy to make an ideal environment for ball pythons because humidity stays higher, gradients can be met without having to deal with basking bulbs and whatnot, and the ease of disinfecting prevents a lot of headache/heartache/vet bills. Snake in safe environment with requirements met = healthy pet, while your friends are looking at it as "OMG if -I- were locked in a tub with nothing to do I'd get bored/unhappy/angry" (not verbatim obviously). It takes some understanding to look at herps objectively as creatures with specific requirements, and they don't necessarily have to cater to you. Can this be done with a glass tank? Yes. Plastic reptile specific enclosure? Also yes. But tubs meet requirements without significant modification or spending $150+ on a reptile specific cage. Species other than ball pythons may not be suited to the tub/rack method, and that's alright. If you were/are keeping herps other than BPs, I'm sure you've already realized they have their own needs ;) (Back to the old mantra "Research research research." My friends think I'm nuts for all the reading and information pursuit I do). I've got tubs, tanks, and a couple acrylic cages all around the house, but it's always the tubs I have to explain to newcomers

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After all these snakes have evolved to live in those specific habitats, so we as keepers should try to replicate that as closely as possible. Not just see money signs in our eyes, and keep everything to a minimum.

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Ok I'll bite. Please list the environmental requirements for a Ball python and why it is Superior to the current hobby standard..

To add to my last post:

Bps in racks is replicating what they are accustomed to in the wild. Small, tight, dark hole. Those are the bullet points the snake looks for when choosing a rodents den. Tight, dark, warm. They don't choose which one has a better floor, "oh..well this one has sticks, but that one over there..it has dead grass...oh and this one has dirt! Ho hum...I guess I'll go with the dead grass...no..too itchy, ok, dirt!..." No, the reptilian brain is much more, well, reptilian.
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
*happy snake face*
*sleeps*

How are we to know which flooring the bps prefer? We can't, and we never will. Who's to say they don't prefer the newspaper? It's smoother than au'natural, non-abrasive on their tummies...Maybe they do like to read, we'll never know.:rolleyes:

So, back to our situation. What is a tub, with newspaper substrate (I don't personally like newspaper, the ink etc. I prefer cypress or aspen, but we'll use the evils of newspaper for this) consist of?
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
:O
Added bonus - some keepers use hides, MORE TIGHTNESS & DARKNESS WOOT! (That was from the bp's mouth, just being silly, sorry.)
Added bonus - constant fresh water
Added bonus - rats come to MEEEEEEE
Added bonus - no other snakes tryin'a take my house. (sorry, bp went all gangster there for a sec)

Bare minimum for a living ball python, well you can see that all day long on craigslist. 20L aquarium, screen top, heat light, half log hide, repti-carpet/paper/aspen/pine*cringe*/whatever-is-on-sale-at-wal-mart.
Racks are far from bare minimum.


Oye...I need to sleep... :P

We really cannot argue this because what is "better" for the snake is subjective. If it works for you and you sleep well at night it's sufficient, and if you're bothered by how you keep your snakes then change it. (I am not referring to anyone specific by saying 'you'. I'm just referring to all people in general.)

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Voicing your opinion is great, and more than welcomed. But you are not *just* voicing your opinion. You are voicing your opinion while putting down a huge majority of people who DO have a passion for their reptiles. You are on ball-pythons.net, not gaboons.net, hots.net, cobras.net or anything else. You are voicing your opinion in the BP Husbandry section, of the ball-pythons.net forum. So please, stop comparing your hots, to our bps. They are not the same, and should not be kept the same. Ball pythons do NOT thrive in large enclosures, in fact, there are quite a lot of them who will go off feed entirely in large enclosures. (This is more so for younger ones, but is not unheard of for adults).

I'm well aware of the fact that animals do not need to be healthy and happy to breed, which is why I specifically did not say "Breed". I said feeding, active, and disease free. Not one word about breeding. You put that in, because you assumed that is where I was going. Negative.

If you want to tell people that you think aspen, or cypress is better than newspaper or paper towels, and give your reasoning why (IE: humidity, burrowing/comforting, etc) it will be warmly welcomed. You don't have to flip everyone off at the same time.

You don't understand why so many of us reptile keepers get upset when someone stands on their soap box saying "Anyone who doesn't do what I do is not passionate. People who use rack systems have dollar signs for eyes" and you are surprised people are getting upset and defensive? :weirdface

And yes, I know you didn't say anyone who doesn't do what you do is wrong, but the insinuation was pretty darn close. Also, exaggeration is super fun :gj:

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No snake in the world likes large open spaces. It's no wonder people find their snakes going off their feed, when they're given empty cages and a water bowl. I've already stated, that should the set up be correct with enough hiding places so that the snake feels secure there is no reason why a snake shouldn't feed.

I do understand, but how do you think it shows any passion when people keep their snakes in a viv/tub with newspaper and a bowl of water and that's it? It's like saying you're passionate about cooking, but all you can cook is toast. I am passionate about my snakes, so i try to give them an enclosure that is similar to where they would be living in the wild. My Gaboon are burrowing snakes, so they're given a substrate where they can burrow.

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Originally Posted by Valentine Pirate

I'm not touching that discussion.

To the OP: It's hard for non herp keepers to stop themselves from anthropomorphizing animals when they're so used to doing it with more common mammalian pets. Telling them that the snakes aren't "happy" "sad" etc as much as they are comfortable, threatened, or hungry can be quite the task. Tubs are easy to make an ideal environment for ball pythons because humidity stays higher, gradients can be met without having to deal with basking bulbs and whatnot, and the ease of disinfecting prevents a lot of headache/heartache/vet bills. Snake in safe environment with requirements met = healthy pet, while your friends are looking at it as "OMG if -I- were locked in a tub with nothing to do I'd get bored/unhappy/angry" (not verbatim obviously). It takes some understanding to look at herps objectively as creatures with specific requirements, and they don't necessarily have to cater to you. Can this be done with a glass tank? Yes. Plastic reptile specific enclosure? Also yes. But tubs meet requirements without significant modification or spending $150+ on a reptile specific cage. Species other than ball pythons may not be suited to the tub/rack method, and that's alright. If you were/are keeping herps other than BPs, I'm sure you've already realized they have their own needs ;) (Back to the old mantra "Research research research." My friends think I'm nuts for all the reading and information pursuit I do). I've got tubs, tanks, and a couple acrylic cages all around the house, but it's always the tubs I have to explain to newcomers

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I have nothing against tubs i have already said that...

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Ok I'll bite. Please list the environmental requirements for a Ball python and why it is Superior to the current hobby standard..

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How about something like these? I'm sure you will find these peoples snakes are far more active than ones kept in a basic set up. Snakes may not be the smartest animals in the world, but you think a vivarium/tub that is more intricate doesn't provide them with greater mental stimulation?


http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7dd0466e.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

To add to my last post:

Bps in racks is replicating what they are accustomed to in the wild. Small, tight, dark hole. Those are the bullet points the snake looks for when choosing a rodents den. Tight, dark, warm. They don't choose which one has a better floor, "oh..well this one has sticks, but that one over there..it has dead grass...oh and this one has dirt! Ho hum...I guess I'll go with the dead grass...no..too itchy, ok, dirt!..." No, the reptilian brain is much more, well, reptilian.
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
*happy snake face*
*sleeps*

How are we to know which flooring the bps prefer? We can't, and we never will. Who's to say they don't prefer the newspaper? It's smoother than au'natural, non-abrasive on their tummies...Maybe they do like to read, we'll never know.:rolleyes:

So, back to our situation. What is a tub, with newspaper substrate (I don't personally like newspaper, the ink etc. I prefer cypress or aspen, but we'll use the evils of newspaper for this) consist of?
Tight? Check.
Dark? Check.
Warm? Check.
:O
Added bonus - some keepers use hides, MORE TIGHTNESS & DARKNESS WOOT! (That was from the bp's mouth, just being silly, sorry.)
Added bonus - constant fresh water
Added bonus - rats come to MEEEEEEE
Added bonus - no other snakes tryin'a take my house. (sorry, bp went all gangster there for a sec)

Bare minimum for a living ball python, well you can see that all day long on craigslist. 20L aquarium, screen top, heat light, half log hide, repti-carpet/paper/aspen/pine*cringe*/whatever-is-on-sale-at-wal-mart.
Racks are far from bare minimum.


Oye...I need to sleep... :P

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And if they want to come out of this small dark hole? How about actually providing a small dark hole inside a Viv/Tub so they can go in and out when they feel the need to.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

If you want to tell people that you think aspen, or cypress is better than newspaper or paper towels, and give your reasoning why (IE: humidity, burrowing/comforting, etc) it will be warmly welcomed. You don't have to flip everyone off at the same time.

You don't understand why so many of us reptile keepers get upset when someone stands on their soap box saying "Anyone who doesn't do what I do is not passionate. People who use rack systems have dollar signs for eyes" and you are surprised people are getting upset and defensive? :weirdface

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This is pretty much how I felt with those condescending responses as well. I am new to BPs and I only kept my BP in a tank for a few weeks before I swapped to the tubs based on my research and loads of recommendations on here. I did not swap them to tubs because I am not passionate about them or don't care for them. I check their temps and humidity multiple times per day. I check for excrements and change their water daily to ensure the cleanest and healthiest environment possible. I choose not to use newspaper but I do not look down on anyone who does.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I have nothing against tubs i have already said that...

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As I stated, I'm not interested in this particular part of the thread (opinions have all been clearly stated, mine is a "whatever's your preference as long as the animal is healthy and not stressed") was making the point that it's hard for non-herpers to accept them :)

Crotalids,

You're enclosures are beautiful and I especially love your Crotalus horridus enclosure. It looks very realistic and similar to where I would find the radio-tagged TRs that I worked with while I was at KU. However, I never once found a snake out, as yours are, in the open. Once we knew that we were right on top of them (from the strength of the signal that we picked up with our antenna), it always took a good while to actally locate them, if we could locate them at all, in the brush/leaves/sticks/etc. Many times they would remain in the same place for up to a week (we went out 3 to 4 times a week to take readings with a GPS on their location to determine things such as home range and distance traveled in a summer) before moving, but if we EVER messed with them for any reason they would not be in that same hiding spot the next time that we went out. Based on these observsations, as a biologist who specialized in herpetology while at school, I would feel safe saying that 1)these animals are incredibly secretive and 2) that they hate human interaction. Even before I ever worked with them my professor informed me that they are a species that is exceptionally sensitive to human disturbance and that if you would catch one in a rough manner (i.e. squeezing it with tongs, fighting with it as it is trying to escape, etc.) then it will NEVER, that's NEVER, return to that location again. I've also read a published paper dealing with stress hormones in Agkistrodon contortrix. They took blood samples from animals immediately upon capture and then took more samples after being handled for a brief period of time (5 minutes if my memory serves me correctly). Turns out that after 5 mintues the levels of a stress hormone that the snakes produce were elevated to a level that were statistically significant when compared to the blood samples taken immediately upon capture. How does this apply here? Being handled, even just moved and placed out of their "natural" habitats for cleaning their enclosure, can stress the animals. I'm sure this can happen with all species of snakes, balls included, but what I am getting at is that keeping wild animals in captivity it anything but "natural."

If you think that the "natural" enclosures that you provide your animals are "natural" to anyone but yourself and other humans looking at them, then you are fooling yourself. Period. I am not knocking you, however, as your display enclosures are beautiful, and I would love to get into keeping hots myself once my sons are a bit older if not once they are out of the house, however you are judging what your snakes feel based on your own uniquely human emotions, which snakes do not have. I am very passionate about my animals and I keep them in tubs for THEIR benefit, not my own. In CO the air is always incredibly dry and when I kept my snakes in tanks I had to mist them every single day while they were in the process of shedding, which is likely at least somewhat stressful for them. Tubs are better for both shedding and feeding response in my experience, and I will continue to keep them in tubs until someone shows me evidence that it is contrary to keeping them in good health. I do use a loose substrate, not newspaper, and what I use is actually quite expensive. While I feel that my snakes are more comfortable on it than they would be on newspaper, no one can offer any evidence to the contrary, so I personally will with hold any judgement on those that do use newspaper.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I think the problem that people are having with your opinions is that the way that you are expressing them makes it seem like you are passing judgement. While you may be, know that doing that won't go over well when a majority of users on this site are the very people that you are passing judgement on. I'm glad that you are passionate about your animals, as I am sure that they receive the best care that you can provide them, however I can assure you that everyone here is passionate about their animals, otherwise they would keep their love of them to themselves and not use this forum to share their passion with others.

Alright, I'll drop the comparative argument, as it's not going to go anywhere. I agree that your vivs are great for your hots. I do not agree that newspaper is the devils paper, and I also disagree about backgrounds / climbers / silk plants / etc.

But I still think you need to learn when to keep the abrasive part of your opinion to yourself. That is a life lesson. You don't have to be all sugar cookies and rainbows, but thinking before you speak will probably save your butt, and your foot, a lot. You are free to your opinion, and free to voice it whenever, and wherever you like. Always remember though, when you say something offensive, you are free to do so, but you also have to deal with the consequences. In this case it's a simple forum flare up, but in life it can be much more severe. (I'm being serious, not trying to be all weird or anything. I'm a mom, and I mom people...sorry. Hell you might even be older than me, but I'll still mom you anyways :colbert: hehe) Just keep that in the back of your mind when you are about to insult a large group of people next time. Just because you CAN say it, doesn't mean you should. Alternatively... It just sucks to be rude. I don't like rude people. There's no reason for it. My god I'm tired. Is it bedtime yet? :tears:
I like cake. *dances*


Edit: Bruce said it so much more eloquently than I did :( Oh well, better luck to me next time! :D :P

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

I have nothing against tubs i have already said that...

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You have nothing against tubs, you just think that anyone who uses them lack passion for their reptiles and shouldn't really have them...

I am far more concerned with making sure my ball pythons have proper humidity and heat gradient to care how the cage looks. I keep my boas in Zilla cages, which were designed for reptiles, but I fight with humidity constantly. It's much harder to provide them with the proper environment, and even though they have plenty of hiding spaces, they choose to use the same hide all the time. They're really not interested in mental stimulation, just rats and their hides.

I think you need to get off your high horse about how you have so much more passion than those of us who use tubs. Tanks look amazing, but what does it matter if 99% of the time the nocturnal animal is hiding and you can't see it anyways. You are just looking at an "empty" cage. If I ever got something that was a display animal, such as green tree python I would take the effort to make sure it was in a nice cage where I could see it. I don't think it's fair to say I have less passion than you, or anyone who uses tubs has less passion than you. Passion is expressed in different ways, you choose to express your passion through keeping naturalistic cages, I choose to express mine through sharing them with out people and getting children (and adults) interested in reptiles.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

But I still think you need to learn when to keep the abrasive part of your opinion to yourself. That is a life lesson. You don't have to be all sugar cookies and rainbows, but thinking before you speak will probably save your butt, and your foot, a lot. You are free to your opinion, and free to voice it whenever, and wherever you like. Always remember though, when you say something offensive, you are free to do so, but you also have to deal with the consequences. In this case it's a simple forum flare up, but in life it can be much more severe. (I'm being serious, not trying to be all weird or anything. I'm a mom, and I mom people...sorry. Hell you might even be older than me, but I'll still mom you anyways :colbert: hehe) Just keep that in the back of your mind when you are about to insult a large group of people next time. Just because you CAN say it, doesn't mean you should. Alternatively... It just sucks to be rude. I don't like rude people. There's no reason for it. My god I'm tired. Is it bedtime yet? :tears:
I like cake. *dances*


Edit: Bruce said it so much more eloquently than I did :( Oh well, better luck to me next time! :D :P

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No way! I liked the way that you said it as well, especially the whole mom part. :) Best quote? "It just sucks to be rude." Spot on, sister! :D LOL

Ah the classic naturalistic viv VS. bare bones tub setup.

I appreciate both. I save my naturalistic enclosures for snakes that will actually utilize them. all of my arboreals are kept in exo terras or large PVC enclosures because, unlike ball pythons, they actually like to be out in the open and are often seen moving around. I'd rather look at that then a $20 "naturalistic" rock cave hide that has my pet snake in it somewhere.

I just don't see the point in keeping a snake that spends 90% of its time hiding in a beautiful viv if I will never (or rarely) see the snake utilizing it.

For venomous animals, I absolutely understand the want and need to replicate the natural environment. I think you have done a great job and I applaud your efforts.

However, not all snakes are the same. Ball pythons in particular are just not the most active of snakes. If I thought keeping them in a naturalistic enclosure would increase their quality of life by a large margin, I would be keeping them in naturalistic tanks.

Here is where it comes down to personal opinion. In my personal opinion, a plastic tub creates the same environment that I would be creating in a naturalistic viv. The only difference is the size and material. The snake doesn't give two poops about what the humid, warm, and cozy environment is made of. It just cares that it feels safe.

To say someone cares less about their animals because they don't enjoy cleaning dirt, leaves, plants, numerous hides, and all the other goodies that go into a naturalistic viv is just not okay by my standards. I enjoy taking care of my animals. Even cleaning up huge poops. I'd rather not go digging through a 6' enclosure looking for said poops though.

It's about what you can handle as a keeper. If you can't handle to maintain 20 naturalistic enclosures, you probably shouldn't have them. But if you can handle 20 simple setups, then by all means go for gold.

There is nothing wrong with either setup. One does not make you any less passionate than the other as long as the animals are healthy.

You will not be able to change the minds of the majority based on your experience with a few hots. I'd just like for you to understand that no one here lacks passion, otherwise there would be no one here! No one is asking you to change your ways, therefor you should do us the same courtesy.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

While your snakes are probably healthy, I have a big gripe with keepers that just keep snakes in a rack on newspaper and a water bowl.

It shows no passion at all. This is one of my rattlesnakes tanks: http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/29/y7usaje2.jpg

All of the talk saying a rack is less stressful is rubbish. If the set up is correct, there is no reason for any snake to be stressed. I keep my baby rattlers in 3ft Vivs, even when I've had ones that are a few weeks old. None have ever missed a feed because they have plenty of hiding spaces etc.

One of my best friends keeps around 70 rattlesnakes, every single one is in a viv. Every single one has a naturalistic enclosure, that's how it should be. Even when I own 100 odd snakes, there is no way I won't have them all in Vivs, after all they're my pride and joy.

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I think u already failed at making a point. Just sayin

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Crotalids,

You're enclosures are beautiful and I especially love your Crotalus horridus enclosure. It looks very realistic and similar to where I would find the radio-tagged TRs that I worked with while I was at KU. However, I never once found a snake out, as yours are, in the open. Once we knew that we were right on top of them (from the strength of the signal that we picked up with our antenna), it always took a good while to actally locate them, if we could locate them at all, in the brush/leaves/sticks/etc. Many times they would remain in the same place for up to a week (we went out 3 to 4 times a week to take readings with a GPS on their location to determine things such as home range and distance traveled in a summer) before moving, but if we EVER messed with them for any reason they would not be in that same hiding spot the next time that we went out. Based on these observsations, as a biologist who specialized in herpetology while at school, I would feel safe saying that 1)these animals are incredibly secretive and 2) that they hate human interaction. Even before I ever worked with them my professor informed me that they are a species that is exceptionally sensitive to human disturbance and that if you would catch one in a rough manner (i.e. squeezing it with tongs, fighting with it as it is trying to escape, etc.) then it will NEVER, that's NEVER, return to that location again. I've also read a published paper dealing with stress hormones in Agkistrodon contortrix. They took blood samples from animals immediately upon capture and then took more samples after being handled for a brief period of time (5 minutes if my memory serves me correctly). Turns out that after 5 mintues the levels of a stress hormone that the snakes produce were elevated to a level that were statistically significant when compared to the blood samples taken immediately upon capture. How does this apply here? Being handled, even just moved and placed out of their "natural" habitats for cleaning their enclosure, can stress the animals. I'm sure this can happen with all species of snakes, balls included, but what I am getting at is that keeping wild animals in captivity it anything but "natural."

If you think that the "natural" enclosures that you provide your animals are "natural" to anyone but yourself and other humans looking at them, then you are fooling yourself. Period. I am not knocking you, however, as your display enclosures are beautiful, and I would love to get into keeping hots myself once my sons are a bit older if not once they are out of the house, however you are judging what your snakes feel based on your own uniquely human emotions, which snakes do not have. I am very passionate about my animals and I keep them in tubs for THEIR benefit, not my own. In CO the air is always incredibly dry and when I kept my snakes in tanks I had to mist them every single day while they were in the process of shedding, which is likely at least somewhat stressful for them. Tubs are better for both shedding and feeding response in my experience, and I will continue to keep them in tubs until someone shows me evidence that it is contrary to keeping them in good health. I do use a loose substrate, not newspaper, and what I use is actually quite expensive. While I feel that my snakes are more comfortable on it than they would be on newspaper, no one can offer any evidence to the contrary, so I personally will with hold any judgement on those that do use newspaper.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I think the problem that people are having with your opinions is that the way that you are expressing them makes it seem like you are passing judgement. While you may be, know that doing that won't go over well when a majority of users on this site are the very people that you are passing judgement on. I'm glad that you are passionate about your animals, as I am sure that they receive the best care that you can provide them, however I can assure you that everyone here is passionate about their animals, otherwise they would keep their love of them to themselves and not use this forum to share their passion with others.

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I will assume you have run tests on neurological activity in the brain of snakes when in a rub with no decor etc, compared to a full on naturalistic viv? Like i said i think it's silly to assume that snakes 'feel' no benefit from a more interactive environment.

I don't see the whole point about shedding, it's easy to get the correct humidity in any enclosure by making a few adjustments. I keep my arboreal vipers in Exo Terra's which are not enclosed at all, the humidity required for my species is much higher than Royal's and i easily attain 80-90% constantly, never had a bad shedding snake.

You don't have to worry about stress with my snakes, they are only handled when they need to be. The last time i hooked one of my rattlers was 3 weeks ago. Besides you should know yourself, that some snakes in captivity become accustomed to their surroundings and thus will not suffer from as much stress - which is why you can see the horridus out in that manner.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Alright, I'll drop the comparative argument, as it's not going to go anywhere. I agree that your vivs are great for your hots. I do not agree that newspaper is the devils paper, and I also disagree about backgrounds / climbers / silk plants / etc.

But I still think you need to learn when to keep the abrasive part of your opinion to yourself. That is a life lesson. You don't have to be all sugar cookies and rainbows, but thinking before you speak will probably save your butt, and your foot, a lot. You are free to your opinion, and free to voice it whenever, and wherever you like. Always remember though, when you say something offensive, you are free to do so, but you also have to deal with the consequences. In this case it's a simple forum flare up, but in life it can be much more severe. (I'm being serious, not trying to be all weird or anything. I'm a mom, and I mom people...sorry. Hell you might even be older than me, but I'll still mom you anyways :colbert: hehe) Just keep that in the back of your mind when you are about to insult a large group of people next time. Just because you CAN say it, doesn't mean you should. Alternatively... It just sucks to be rude. I don't like rude people. There's no reason for it. My god I'm tired. Is it bedtime yet? :tears:
I like cake. *dances*


Edit: Bruce said it so much more eloquently than I did :( Oh well, better luck to me next time! :D :P

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It's got nothing to do with being rude, you're acting like one of those religious maniacs that takes offense to the slightest comment made against their beliefs. If you believe what you're doing is correct, why does it bother you what i think? I certainly couldn't care less what people thought of my set ups lol.:)

Would you also take offense to the fact I don't feel the need to keep any non venomous snake and never have, because i don't find them attractive to look at?

It's all opinions at the end of the day, and i wouldn't ever be offended by someones opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kinra

You have nothing against tubs, you just think that anyone who uses them lack passion for their reptiles and shouldn't really have them...

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Um no...I've used tubs for young snakes, that grow at a fast rate. There is nothing wrong with a tub, what's stopping you from making a tub naturalistic? Nothing.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

For venomous animals, I absolutely understand the want and need to replicate the natural environment. I think you have done a great job and I applaud your efforts.

However, not all snakes are the same. Ball pythons in particular are just not the most active of snakes. If I thought keeping them in a naturalistic enclosure would increase their quality of life by a large margin, I would be keeping them in naturalistic tanks.

Here is where it comes down to personal opinion. In my personal opinion, a plastic tub creates the same environment that I would be creating in a naturalistic viv. The only difference is the size and material. The snake doesn't give two poops about what the humid, warm, and cozy environment is made of. It just cares that it feels safe.

To say someone cares less about their animals because they don't enjoy cleaning dirt, leaves, plants, numerous hides, and all the other goodies that go into a naturalistic viv is just not okay by my standards. I enjoy taking care of my animals. Even cleaning up huge poops. I'd rather not go digging through a 6' enclosure looking for said poops though.

It's about what you can handle as a keeper. If you can't handle to maintain 20 naturalistic enclosures, you probably shouldn't have them. But if you can handle 20 simple setups, then by all means go for gold.

There is nothing wrong with either setup. One does not make you any less passionate than the other as long as the animals are healthy.

You will not be able to change the minds of the majority based on your experience with a few hots. I'd just like for you to understand that no one here lacks passion, otherwise there would be no one here! No one is asking you to change your ways, therefor you should do us the same courtesy.

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I don't know why people keep trying to say that venomous snakes are different to non venomous, in the sense that you can understand wanting a natural enclosure for them...Why? It's not any different.

The example you give of Royals not being the most active snake and therefore doesn't warrant a natural set up is redundant. Gaboons are the laziest snakes you will ever find, but i don't just stick them on newspaper.

So, your only problem is newspaper? Is that really it?

As long as I keep them on corrugated paper or paper towels you think that is perfectly fine?

I'm curious as to why you have such a huge problem with newspaper.


My understanding of venomous needing a more natural enclosure is that they generally camouflage with their environment to catch their prey. Not that they need it in order to catch their prey, but they perhaps sense that they blend in with their environment which makes them feel safer.

Does that make sense?

I really don't know a whole lot about hots since I don't keep them.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Oh really now? Do you understand the word evolved?

e·volve 1. a. To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
b. To work (something) out; devise: "the schemes he evolved to line his purse" (S.J. Perelman).

2. Biology To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.
3. To give off; emit.

Tell me how these ball pythons you have, have done any of what the definition of the word suggests? Maybe they've developed reading glasses to read the newspaper!!

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The ability to thrive on a given substrate is a process that has occured through this process and is a charactoristic of these snakes. This, even in your looked up definition, defines an evolution process. And if you want to pull out and compare, let me get the 4 degrees off my wall and fax them right over. . . You're becoming very defensive for "not being against tubs". You have made your point, but its obviously anti-flow, and that's fine people can think how they want as long as their not mistreating these animals. If you want to house your snakes in a naturalistic cage, that's fine, but don't insult or be little those who do not want to provide the same asthetic appeal as you apparently have. Many of the people here house more than 10+ snakes. It is possible to do this with "glass tanks" of any sorts, but not the best option in a cost vs benefit. Is there any true issues with keeping snakes in tubs? None that I have ever witnessed. Are there issues with keeping snakes in naturalistic cages, nope not if you're willing to keep it clean. Because while you rant on and on about the natural world. You need to remember that most snakes do not live in the same place that they deficate in. They are quite clean animals. Spot cleaning a naturalistic cage is not enough since liquird waste can not always be removed in this fashion. Through this urates will rise to harmful levels and eventually cause your snake to become ill. However, think how you want, this is not a form of thought police. But this is a place for a wealth of information.