Sad and Angry, have you seen this before?

I Just checked on my snakes. When I got to my gtp I found her on the cage floor with a mouth full of substrate. I opened the door and touched her side and she started to wiggle around like a disturbed earthworm. I picked her up and got most of the substrate out of her mouth and knew something was very wrong. She has always been very nippy but I was able to hold her head, open her mouth, and remove the substrate without protest. She would get alittle fight in her every few seconds and then her entire body contracted and she was gone.

Her head was thinner in the back and seemed flat, I think from the muscles seizing up. Her left eye had a indention in the clear membrane and after she passed I could see a blood vessel popped in the upper part of her eye. Other than that she appeared very normal.

She just got a new pvc cage with rhp that I moved her into on the 20th. This was a few days after i got it and after running test. I always run test on a cage to see the temps while unregulated and then regulated until it is dialed in. The temp and humidity has been steady and correct. Was I wrong in thinking the cage was safe with a new rhp? I got the cage from pvccages.com. Did the rhp give off gases?

I don't think that is what happened and will feel like an idiot if it did. Getting to see her final moments I feel like she had a seizure or seizures.

Has anyone had or heard of something like this before?

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http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...EEC402BF9D.jpg

This is how she seized and past

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...EEBF9E1815.jpg

No ideas?

I just handled her yesterday morning and all was well and she was her regular self.

I'm really sorry for your loss. I don't know anything about GTPs though. :(

Sorry for the loss:(
What size cage was it? What were the temps? Humidity? when was the last meal? Defecation? What was the Substrate? What type of branches did you use? Any stuck shed?
As for the cage it is possible the RHP off gassed, i have a PVC cage from jim for my carpet, i ran the RHP on full blast for 20 mins(3 times a day), then hooked up to a thermostat for 3 days before my carpet went in. so it is possible it did off gas

The temp at the high branch was 88, floor 77-78. Humidity was 55-63. Last shed was good, none stuck. Her last movement was the 22nd. The perches were the ones he made with a bendable one from her old cage. Substrate was mixed reptibark with eco earth, like old cage. Her last meal was the16th, she turned this week down but i thought it could be do to the move.

I ran the rhp full blast for almost a day and a half. Then a full day regulating it and getting it dialed in. Would that gas be odorless?

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Cage was 24*24*20

I'm very sorry for your loss :( That is tough to deal with.

I'm not too sure about off gassing, but I wouldn't rule it out. In my opinion, 88 is a little hot for a GTP, but it shouldn't do this kind of damage.

Any ideas how she got the substrate in her mouth?

:( :( Very sad.

How much distance is there between the high perch and the RHP?
Where, and how is your thermostat probe mounted?
Are those temperatures surface or air temps?

Sent from my Motorola ATRIX using Tapatalk 2.

the popped blood vessel and mouth full of substrate suggests seizure, but I'm no expert on GTP, but I've heard of similar with other snakes.

I don't know gtp's, but am very sorry for your loss. :(

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

The distance from the rhp and the perch is prob about 7 inches, that's a guess. The perch were already mounted and I don't think it had anything to do with it. The temps I posted earlier were all surface temps measured with a temp gun. The ambient was right around 80 in the lower portion of the cage.

As far as the substrate in the mouth, I really have no idea. She was like that when i found her. With her eye and the mouth it looked to me as if she had been thrashing around on the cage floor. Which made me think seizure but I just don't understand why.

The probe is mounted to the rhp using a cable strap attached to the frame of the rhp. This way the probe is directly under the rhp but does not touch the surface.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

The distance from the rhp and the perch is prob about 7 inches, that's a guess. The perch were already mounted and I don't think it had anything to do with it. The temps I posted earlier were all surface temps measured with a temp gun. The ambient was right around 80 in the lower portion of the cage.

The probe is mounted to the rhp using a cable strap attached to the frame of the rhp. This way the probe is directly under the rhp but does not touch the surface.

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It looks like everything was mounted right. I wish I had some other suggestions.

Sent from my Motorola ATRIX using Tapatalk 2.

Sorry for your loss. I can only imagine how heartbreaking.

Maybe it was low humidity? Is your humidity normally so low? Gtp need a humidity cycle. The dented eye caps makes me believe it might be related.

Just an idea.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I'm sorry for your loss. It was a very beautiful snake.

It's possible she just had some kind of timebomb genetic abnormality. But the move to the new enclosure is suggestive. You didn't change the substrate or anything?

...okay, the timing of the move to the new enclosure is suggestive, but it could just be something wrong with her that was waiting for a moment of a little higher stress to go off. There's a pretty good chance you didn't do anything wrong at all, and couldn't have done anything to prevent this.

I'm really sorry.

Sucks man, sorry to hear. She was a beautiful little girl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Maybe it was low humidity? Is your humidity normally so low? Gtp need a humidity cycle. The dented eye caps makes me believe it might be related.

Just an idea.

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I don't think so. I moved her from a glass cage that was always a battle to hold humidity, but she still shed fine and was looking healthy. The humidity I stated was what it usually ended the day at, the lows, I was still misting each day and then letting it dry out through the day.

It was hard to get a pic of but the eye looked more damaged from an impact, then from being dry. And it was only one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loonunit

It's possible she just had some kind of timebomb genetic abnormality. But the move to the new enclosure is suggestive. You didn't change the substrate or anything?

...okay, the timing of the move to the new enclosure is suggestive, but it could just be something wrong with her that was waiting for a moment of a little higher stress to go off. There's a pretty good chance you didn't do anything wrong at all, and couldn't have done anything to prevent this.

I'm really sorry.

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Yea, its frustrating but I think you may be right. Nothing had changed but the cage and everything was cleaned and sanitized before going in the cage with the same cleaner. I just can't believe the timing.


Thank you all very much. I really appreciate the support. I have mixed feeling about it all. She died in my hands so part of me is glad i was there and was able to have some puzzle pieces, but the other side is sad because I could do nothing for her but watch her die. From the time I found her to her passing was less than four minutes, talk about a helpless feeling. The unknown kills me.

Repticon is next month and maybe I can find another that will bring me a much joy as she did. She really was gorgeous.

This is what I had her set up in.



http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...024_115037.jpg

Gorgeous looking enclosure and best of luck if you do get a new one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

I Just checked on my snakes. When I got to my gtp I found her on the cage floor with a mouth full of substrate. I opened the door and touched her side and she started to wiggle around like a disturbed earthworm. I picked her up and got most of the substrate out of her mouth and knew something was very wrong. She has always been very nippy but I was able to hold her head, open her mouth, and remove the substrate without protest. She would get alittle fight in her every few seconds and then her entire body contracted and she was gone.

Her head was thinner in the back and seemed flat, I think from the muscles seizing up. Her left eye had a indention in the clear membrane and after she passed I could see a blood vessel popped in the upper part of her eye. Other than that she appeared very normal.

She just got a new pvc cage with rhp that I moved her into on the 20th. This was a few days after i got it and after running test. I always run test on a cage to see the temps while unregulated and then regulated until it is dialed in. The temp and humidity has been steady and correct. Was I wrong in thinking the cage was safe with a new rhp? I got the cage from pvccages.com. Did the rhp give off gases?

I don't think that is what happened and will feel like an idiot if it did. Getting to see her final moments I feel like she had a seizure or seizures.

Has anyone had or heard of something like this before?

- - - Updated - - -

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...EEC402BF9D.jpg

This is how she seized and past

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...EEBF9E1815.jpg

---

Why don't you have her necropsied?

Off-gassing of pvc and rhps has been over-blamed in the hobby. While heating PVC and most plastics will volatize any pthalates (plasticizers) I've never seen an issue with them and I have used PVC products around neonates for many, many years.

Did the PVC cage come pre-assembled or did you have to put it together? If you did put it together did you seal the joints? If you sealed the joint what did you use?

In many of the DIY rack articles on this forum, the use of GOOP is recommended. GOOP is one of the nastiest adhesives out there and using it in an enclosed space or without airing it out properly could very well result in neurological or other health issues.

My thinking is that unless you used a fairly noxious sealer, the move to the new enclosure and her death may be at best, incidental. At worst, the stress of the move may have triggered a latent health issue.

Without a necropsy, you will never know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Why don't you have her necropsied?

Off-gassing of pvc and rhps has been over-blamed in the hobby. While heating PVC and most plastics will volatize any pthalates (plasticizers) I've never seen an issue with them and I have used PVC products around neonates for many, many years.

Did the PVC cage come pre-assembled or did you have to put it together? If you did put it together did you seal the joints? If you sealed the joint what did you use?

In many of the DIY rack articles on this forum, the use of GOOP is recommended. GOOP is one of the nastiest adhesives out there and using it in an enclosed space or without airing it out properly could very well result in neurological or other health issues.

My thinking is that unless you used a fairly noxious sealer, the move to the new enclosure and her death may be at best, incidental. At worst, the stress of the move may have triggered a latent health issue.

Without a necropsy, you will never know.

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I thought about it. I bought the cage preassembled and didn't have to seal anything. I thought gases from the rhp shouldn't be the cause but I wanted to make sure for future knowledge. While a necropsy may give me an answer it will not bring her back and at this point I don't think it was anything I had control of. The gas was just my first thought after a seizure and I wanted to ask the forum to make sure I failed to read a warning on rhp's.

Sorry to hear, that sucks... Was he an import or verified CB?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

I thought about it. I bought the cage preassembled and didn't have to seal anything. I thought gases from the rhp shouldn't be the cause but I wanted to make sure for future knowledge. While a necropsy may give me an answer it will not bring her back and at this point I don't think it was anything I had control of. The gas was just my first thought after a seizure and I wanted to ask the forum to make sure I failed to read a warning on rhp's.

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It definitely won't bring her back.

However, without a necropsy, you won't know whether it was a latent defect or something that can be transmitted to the rest of your collection. It is not uncommon for viruses, especially adenoviruses, to be asymptomatic for long periods of time and then suddenly strike, sometimes with a stress trigger, sometimes not. The final throes will lead you to believe it is a neurological issue when it may not be.

The point is that healthy young snakes do not suddenly die without a cause. If your husbandry was correct then it is narrowed down to a congenital issue or a pathogen. Congenital issues are not really triggered by stress - diseases are. If you are putting your money on a defect, then so be it. On a young seemingly healthy snake that was thriving until recently, I would necropsy the animal.

If that were my animal, I would have it necropsied, without a doubt.

I am very sorry for your loss, she was a beautiful snake!

It was said to be a farm raised import. But the previous owner also said she never struck at or bit him. So I think I could have some wrong information. He also said I could contact him for any question that pops up but when I tried he would not reply back.

A necropsy would have been best but I had already deposed of her. If my fiance found a dead snake in the frig my head would be sitting next to it. That is no excuse I know but I do try to tread lightly with my collection and her. She is not a snake person at all.

I really didn't think it could be a virus laying wait to attack. You have taught me something new. Thank you. It never even crossed my mind.

Do the events I described sound like anything you have heard of before?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

It was said to be a farm raised import. But the previous owner also said she never struck at or bit him. So I think I could have some wrong information. He also said I could contact him for any question that pops up but when I tried he would not reply back.

A necropsy would have been best but I had already deposed of her. If my fiance found a dead snake in the frig my head would be sitting next to it. That is no excuse I know but I do try to tread lightly with my collection and her. She is not a snake person at all.

I really didn't think it could be a virus laying wait to attack. You have taught me something new. Thank you. It never even crossed my mind.

Do the events I described sound like anything you have heard of before?

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I have had direct experience with animals I have bred.

A few years ago I lost a young suboc who was seemingly healthy to adenovirus. The animal was bred by me, and had no contact with any recent acquisitions. In fact, it was during a stretch in which I had not added any animals for almost 18 months.

Over a period of a couple weeks, this male two year old Bogertophis Subocularis began acting odd.

The signs were subtle. He stopped using his favorite hides and hung out in places he never hung out before. There were no other symptoms.

The following week, he refused his meal and his eyes were dialated. I made an appointment with the vet for the following day.

The next morning, he was dead. There were no other symptoms. He had not had diarrhea, he had not shown any signs of neurological damage, he had just shed and had no issues with that either. There was no weight loss, corkscrewing, stargazing or respiratory infection symptoms. He had a slight reddish cast to the front of his snout. That was it.

The necropsy showed that his intestines and stomach were severely infected and covered in serious lesions (necrotizing gastritis). Tissue samples were sent to UCD for analysis.

I quarantine all my animals, religiously disinfect my hands between handling different animals and scrupulously clean all of the enclosures on a very regular rotation. My vet performs a house call once a year and fecal samples are submitted at this time.

At this point, I began to fear OPMV, maybe crypto or some other disease (IBD) that can remain latent for extended periods of time.

Histopathology came back today and inclusion bodies consistent with adenovirus were found in the samples.

People who keep bearded dragons (I am not one of them) are quite familiar with adenovirus. It has been reported in several species of snakes. I don't see it discussed often on any of the forums and the information out there is somewhat tedious to go through.

The vet and the lab thought that the animal may have had it since birth and had been successfully battling with it for the last two years. Apparently, it can be kept in check in some cases, in others, it presents itself much like IBD can - chronic acute/subclinical symptoms that are triggered by stress.

Both the vet and the lab informed me that this is not an airborne pathogen but that it can be transmitted to other animals in a collection.

Oftentimes, people come to this and other forums asking the "group" to diagnose particular illnesses. One of the problems with snakes is that many illnesses, the adenovirus, IBD, crypto, OPMV, etc,, have similar symptoms. Some of these symptoms also overlap into amoebiasis and other parasitic infections.

If one of your snakes dies, for the sake of the community in general, have it necropsied so that you can find the causative agent.

After the death of the animal I corresponded with several Trans-Pecos Ratsnake owners and/or breeders who have discussed undiagnosed chronic wasting disorders in these animals. Talking to both the lab and the vet confirmed that rat snakes in general tend to be more prone to adenovirus infection. The sad part is that since few people opt for necropsies or histopathology, the true extent of the prevalence in other species of snakes is unknown.

Skiploder,

Thank you very much for taking the time to share that story and information. I truly acted ignorantly and will not make this mistake again. I hope I never have to deal with another sudden death but I am now better informed in the event I do.I try to research my animals fully but I have never read about any of this. I need to and will.



Thanks to everyone again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

Skiploder,

Thank you very much for taking the time to share that story and information. I truly acted ignorantly and will not make this mistake again. I hope I never have to deal with another sudden death but I am now better informed in the event I do.I try to research my animals fully but I have never read about any of this. I need to and will.



Thanks to everyone again

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You didn't act ignorantly. I was in no way trying to imply that............

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I have had direct experience with animals I have bred.

A few years ago I lost a young suboc who was seemingly healthy to adenovirus. The animal was bred by me, and had no contact with any recent acquisitions. In fact, it was during a stretch in which I had not added any animals for almost 18 months.

Over a period of a couple weeks, this male two year old Bogertophis Subocularis began acting odd.

The signs were subtle. He stopped using his favorite hides and hung out in places he never hung out before. There were no other symptoms.

The following week, he refused his meal and his eyes were dialated. I made an appointment with the vet for the following day.

The next morning, he was dead. There were no other symptoms. He had not had diarrhea, he had not shown any signs of neurological damage, he had just shed and had no issues with that either. There was no weight loss, corkscrewing, stargazing or respiratory infection symptoms. He had a slight reddish cast to the front of his snout. That was it.

The necropsy showed that his intestines and stomach were severely infected and covered in serious lesions (necrotizing gastritis). Tissue samples were sent to UCD for analysis.

I quarantine all my animals, religiously disinfect my hands between handling different animals and scrupulously clean all of the enclosures on a very regular rotation. My vet performs a house call once a year and fecal samples are submitted at this time.

At this point, I began to fear OPMV, maybe crypto or some other disease (IBD) that can remain latent for extended periods of time.

Histopathology came back today and inclusion bodies consistent with adenovirus were found in the samples.

People who keep bearded dragons (I am not one of them) are quite familiar with adenovirus. It has been reported in several species of snakes. I don't see it discussed often on any of the forums and the information out there is somewhat tedious to go through.

The vet and the lab thought that the animal may have had it since birth and had been successfully battling with it for the last two years. Apparently, it can be kept in check in some cases, in others, it presents itself much like IBD can - chronic acute/subclinical symptoms that are triggered by stress.

Both the vet and the lab informed me that this is not an airborne pathogen but that it can be transmitted to other animals in a collection.

Oftentimes, people come to this and other forums asking the "group" to diagnose particular illnesses. One of the problems with snakes is that many illnesses, the adenovirus, IBD, crypto, OPMV, etc,, have similar symptoms. Some of these symptoms also overlap into amoebiasis and other parasitic infections.

If one of your snakes dies, for the sake of the community in general, have it necropsied so that you can find the causative agent.

After the death of the animal I corresponded with several Trans-Pecos Ratsnake owners and/or breeders who have discussed undiagnosed chronic wasting disorders in these animals. Talking to both the lab and the vet confirmed that rat snakes in general tend to be more prone to adenovirus infection. The sad part is that since few people opt for necropsies or histopathology, the true extent of the prevalence in other species of snakes is unknown.

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Many people don't realize there is a HUGE overlap in reptile diseases even between snakes to lizards and back...many diseases...specifically viruses and bacteria can jump species overtime or even pass from humans to animals instead of the standard path of animals to humans. One sub species may even just be considered a carrier for a virus that may prove 100% fatal to another related subspecies. Stressor events can do unimaginable things to any living organisms immune system...include result in pushing it over the edge.

That being said...she was a beautiful animal and Im really sorry for your loss...

So I have a rough Idea of what happened. So I believe it was a parasite your snake got from eating maybe an unhealthy rat/mouse. The parasite then went to the brain, causing the seizures. Them went to the eyes, therefore popping blood vessels in the eye. Sorry for your loss :(.....

So sorry for your loss :(. It's always hard losing a snake.

After reading the whole thread I though I'd share my experience with the GTP we lost last year. It's not exactly the same but something he did reminded me of your GTP and the fact you found her with bedding in her mouth. Our Biak used to strike at EVERYTHING at night. One night we walked into the room and turned on the light and heard him strike but soon noticed he hit a bit of moss that was on the bottom of the cage and was constricting it. I had to use forceps to clean out all the pieces of moss but he was fine because the pieces were big. A few months later he regurged two meals in a row so I took him to the vet. The vet and I agreed to do a fecal test as soon as he pooped and wait two weeks to try feeding him again. Well, he passed away a week later before a fecal could be done so I had a necropsy done and he ended up having a load of intestinal parasites. I don't believe that having tried to eat moss had anything to do with his passing, however. Anyway, I don't remember reading that your GTP regurged but I was thinking maybe it was something as simple as her striking at the bedding and getting a mouth full of it, aspirating some and choking. There was another story I read on MVF of a GTP that ate the paper towel on the bottom of its tub (with out a feeder present). Randomly striking at the ground seems to be pretty common. It's just a thought and I hope you were able to get another one. Your set-up is awesome :).

Can't provide any insight but I can provide my condolences :( She was beautiful and I have always wanted a GTP! I am sorry for your loss!

Thanks guys. I actually already have another gtp. I got a male that's a few year old. Its got a good amount of blue, green, and yellow. He has a nice attitude though he can get an attitude every now and then. I bought it from a guy with the beginning of an ri, unknown to me. A few days after I got him I realized it was more of a rescue than a purchase. A vet visit and a few weeks of antibiotic injections and he was healthy and is a good eater and a active fellow at night.

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3df7d223.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...ps52344ec5.jpg

http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/...ps35daecfc.jpg

That is a beautiful GTP - best of luck with him K!! I am very sorry for the loss of your other one. As you already know, Skip's info is spot-on. But your new guy is pretty awesome! I hope he does really well for you and you have the opportunity to enjoy him for many years!