Need Opinions!

Hey Guys! Im new to the forum and I have a question for you all,

Just a little back story I have been keeping snakes for 4 years however, my parents never really agreed with this hobby till I became old enough and made my own decisions. Having said that I picked up 2 normal females for the 2013 season. They were a little underweight to breed but there was still time to get them to size. One of them ended up dropping a clutch of 5 eggs! She was 1300 grams with the eggs :S. I ended up hatching a Bumblebee, a Pastel, a Mojave, and 0.2 Female Normals. Sadly the Normals were the only ones to survive from that clutch. Now for my question, Here is what I currently own:

Females : PB 3 Female Normals , 1 Possible Normal/Pastel or Spotnose (Ill post a photo up for you all to identify her for me)
Males : PB Mojave, Pastel, PB Het Red Axanthic

My local breeder suggested me to give him back the Mojave for a proven breeder Bumblebee, how ever he wants an extra $300 on top of the trade. He also has a Female Pinstripe sitting at 800 grams im thinking to get her up to size for a late breed and she is only $150 more.

What would you guys do? Should I stick with what I have or do one of the trades?

Chris

Whats PB?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Whats PB?

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Proven Breeder

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Originally Posted by ChrisP

Hey Guys! Im new to the forum and I have a question for you all,

Just a little back story I have been keeping snakes for 4 years however, my parents never really agreed with this hobby till I became old enough and made my own decisions. Having said that I picked up 2 normal females for the 2013 season. They were a little underweight to breed but there was still time to get them to size. One of them ended up dropping a clutch of 5 eggs! She was 1300 grams with the eggs :S. I ended up hatching a Bumblebee, a Pastel, a Mojave, and 0.2 Female Normals. Sadly the Normals were the only ones to survive from that clutch. Now for my question, Here is what I currently own:

Females : PB 3 Female Normals , 1 Possible Normal/Pastel or Spotnose (Ill post a photo up for you all to identify her for me)
Males : PB Mojave, Pastel, PB Het Red Axanthic

My local breeder suggested me to give him back the Mojave for a proven breeder Bumblebee, how ever he wants an extra $300 on top of the trade. He also has a Female Pinstripe sitting at 800 grams im thinking to get her up to size for a late breed and she is only $150 more.

What would you guys do? Should I stick with what I have or do one of the trades?

Chris

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I would pass on the bee. Well. I guess it depends in the quality of the bee and mojave. If the mojave is a nice example of the morph, I would rather keep him than an ugly bee. When breeding, you want high quality animals. Breeding ugly snakes will give you ugly babies. Plus male hatchling bees are going for $250-350 these days. I think he's asking at least $100 too much for the trade. Can you post pictures of both snakes so we can determine quality? And if possible, to get their baby pictures?


Get the pin. $150 is a steal for a girl almost to breeder size. Breeder size pin girls are worth $800-900.

And yes. Please post that normal(poss pastel/spotnose). They are very easy to distinguish.

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The bee was a decent looking bee however the bumblebee hatchlings were way to spotty for my liking. I dont have access to a photo of the pinstripe yet but she's a very clean pin!

Here are a few of the snakes

http://s1301.photobucket.com/albums/...s25/?start=all

Not to be a party pooper, but 1300g, is a drop light to breed the girl, and when are you planning to breed the 800g female you are considering?

The rule is 3 (years old)-3 (ft. long)-1500g

Rushing it is not wise.

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Originally Posted by AdamF

Not to be a party pooper, but 1300g, is a drop light to breed the girl, and when are you planning to breed the 800g female you are considering?

The rule is 3 (years old)-3 (ft. long)-1500g

Rushing it is not wise.

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That's some people's guide lines, not a rule. Generally females will breed their second winter. I prefer to wait till 1200g but some instances will breed at 1000. Like this last year I had a 3 yr old female spider that barely got to 1000 grams. I paired her up and she was 1275 before laying. She laid 5 perfect huge eggs and went all the way down to 778 grams. She is already back up to 1400 grams. If the female is ready to breed, she will...

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Originally Posted by AdamF

Not to be a party pooper, but 1300g, is a drop light to breed the girl, and when are you planning to breed the 800g female you are considering?

The rule is 3 (years old)-3 (ft. long)-1500g

Rushing it is not wise.

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General guide is 2 winters.

I don't follow the 1500 g guide either. Some girls are sexually mature but don't ever get that large no matter how much they eat.
As long as the mature female has proportional weight to length, it should be fine to breed. For example: breeding a female that is 1200 g, but is short and fat is safer than breeding a skinny1800 g female. As long as the female has nice body condition and proper fat reserves, a lighter female can be bred safely.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

General guide is 2 winters.

I don't follow the 1500 g guide either. Some girls are sexually mature but don't ever get that large no matter how much they eat.
As long as the mature female has proportional weight to length, it should be fine to breed. For example: breeding a female that is 1200 g, but is short and fat is safer than breeding a skinny1800 g female. As long as the female has nice body condition and proper fat reserves, a lighter female can be bred safely.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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I'm sure you can also breed a 900g female, and things can work out fine.
You can also drink before you drive, and not crash. You can smoke and never get cancer.

I have yet to meet a professional breeder, or read from experts that DON"T say, "under 1500g is increased risk to mother and eggs.

It should not go unoticed that the OP lost more than 1/2 the first clutch.

Of course, your snake, your choice

Keep the proven breeder mojave! Eventually, you can make mystic potions, purple passions, and so on! I generally go by 1200 grams as my minimum size to breed. I prefer to have them in the 1500 to 1800 gram size personally. Females will breed when they are ready, but as a breeder you still have to keep their best interest in mind.

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Originally Posted by AdamF

I'm sure you can also breed a 900g female, and things can work out fine.
You can also drink before you drive, and not crash. You can smoke and never get cancer.

I have yet to meet a professional breeder, or read from experts that DON"T say, "under 1500g is increased risk to mother and eggs.

It should not go unoticed that the OP lost more than 1/2 the first clutch.

Of course, your snake, your choice

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Page 83 of Kevin McCurley's book, The Complete Ball Python, states female breesing size is 1000+. Breeding is about healthy body condition as Satomi said. Just because a few people on the Internet state a female should be 1500g + to breed and then it gets regurgitated at great length does not make it a fact.

Comparing it to drunk driving is a little out there. I have never had an egg bound female, and I have bred many females under 1500g with perfect clutches every time. The only time a friend of mine had an egg bound female was a 3200 gram girl. So that just about disproves your theory.

How many snakes have you bred? How many people do you know and can prove have had females die or become egg bound under 1500g?

What do you consider a professional breeder? I have a business license and do this for a living...

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Originally Posted by AdamF

I'm sure you can also breed a 900g female, and things can work out fine.
You can also drink before you drive, and not crash. You can smoke and never get cancer.

I have yet to meet a professional breeder, or read from experts that DON"T say, "under 1500g is increased risk to mother and eggs.

It should not go unoticed that the OP lost more than 1/2 the first clutch.

Of course, your snake, your choice

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What pro breeders are you talking about? Throw out some names to back up those statements.

Some females never reach 1500grams, does that mean they shouldnt be bred? Im sure there are 1200gram females put there that lay healthy 4-6egg clutches every year. The snakes wont ever get any bigger than this. Same way that not every female will reach 3kg+. Not all get that big.

Obviously humans are different but thats like saying theres a certain weight that women should get pregnant at and they cant before they reach that weight. Or saying that EVERY girl is sexually mature at the same age. Some girls just "develop" sooner than others. This isnt the case with humans and isnt the case with snakes. They all grow and develop at different rates and if they arent sexually mature they wont lay for you. Same way if a girl isnt sexually mature, well, she cant get pregnant.

*In no way am i condoning teen pregnancy, just trying to use easy examples lol*

EDIT: Also im guessing he lost part of the clutch due to the fact that he was not ready for eggs and didnt know how to properly care for them or the babies once they hatched. Once again, just a hunch.

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Originally Posted by AdamF

I'm sure you can also breed a 900g female, and things can work out fine.
You can also drink before you drive, and not crash. You can smoke and never get cancer.

I have yet to meet a professional breeder, or read from experts that DON"T say, "under 1500g is increased risk to mother and eggs.

It should not go unoticed that the OP lost more than 1/2 the first clutch.

Of course, your snake, your choice

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What do the females tell the males in the wild? "Excuse me sir but I am a bit under 1500g this year so please move on and put your hemipenes in another lady. Thank you and have a nice day."

Come on if they are ready they will go. I bred my first ever Bp last season a 2009 pastel she was 2.5yrs old 1600g. Had numerous locks no eggs. Go figure

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Originally Posted by AdamF

Not to be a party pooper, but 1300g, is a drop light to breed the girl, and when are you planning to breed the 800g female you are considering?

The rule is 3 (years old)-3 (ft. long)-1500g

Rushing it is not wise.

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If you re read that but I wrote that I purchased the snake at 1300g expecting to get her to 1500g and she dropped eggs. I have never bred before. If I pick up the pin I will be waiting till she has doubled her weight.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Page 83 of Kevin McCurley's book, The Complete Ball Python, states female breesing size is 1000+. Breeding is about healthy body condition as Satomi said. Just because a few people on the Internet state a female should be 1500g + to breed and then it gets regurgitated at great length does not make it a fact.

Comparing it to drunk driving is a little out there. I have never had an egg bound female, and I have bred many females under 1500g with perfect clutches every time. The only time a friend of mine had an egg bound female was a 3200 gram girl. So that just about disproves your theory.

How many snakes have you bred? How many people do you know and can prove have had females die or become egg bound under 1500g?

What do you consider a professional breeder? I have a business license and do this for a living...

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YOU are a pro-breeder! I just returned from a show where I spoke with several "pros" like you. They ALL say the same thing, "You can breed a female under 1000g, and you can breed a male as low as 500g, if you are very experienced and have perfect husbandry. Otherwise, if you are only a casual breeder/hobbyist, you are safest with 1500 (F) and 800 (M)"

I cannot prove anyone had a bad experience, outside anecdotally, what I've heard/read.

I am certainly not a pro, and it sounded to me like the OP was also a first time breeder. In that situation, I find it irresponsible to suggest that an amateur should TRY what a pro can DO, on their first attempt. I believe it better for the animals and the collectors to try the safest path first, gain experience, before attempting what a pro has taken years to hone.

All IMHO of course. Please dont' take the wrong way

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

What pro breeders are you talking about? Throw out some names to back up those statements.

Some females never reach 1500grams, does that mean they shouldnt be bred? Im sure there are 1200gram females put there that lay healthy 4-6egg clutches every year. The snakes wont ever get any bigger than this. Same way that not every female will reach 3kg+. Not all get that big.

Obviously humans are different but thats like saying theres a certain weight that women should get pregnant at and they cant before they reach that weight. Or saying that EVERY girl is sexually mature at the same age. Some girls just "develop" sooner than others. This isnt the case with humans and isnt the case with snakes. They all grow and develop at different rates and if they arent sexually mature they wont lay for you. Same way if a girl isnt sexually mature, well, she cant get pregnant.

*In no way am i condoning teen pregnancy, just trying to use easy examples lol*

EDIT: Also im guessing he lost part of the clutch due to the fact that he was not ready for eggs and didnt know how to properly care for them or the babies once they hatched. Once again, just a hunch.

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I think you lost us all when you compared human breeding, to BP breeding!

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Originally Posted by joebad976

What do the females tell the males in the wild? "Excuse me sir but I am a bit under 1500g this year so please move on and put your hemipenes in another lady. Thank you and have a nice day."

Come on if they are ready they will go. I bred my first ever Bp last season a 2009 pastel she was 2.5yrs old 1600g. Had numerous locks no eggs. Go figure

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Let's see, last time I checked, we are not talking about wild snakes. You didn't "breed" your BP, last season, you just paired her. There is no guaranteed formula for producing a clutch, vs jeopardizing a female. The only "guideline" for amateur breeder/hobbyists, is 1500-3-3. I kinda wonder, "what's the harm in waiting?"