Heartbreak............and triumph. {GRAPHIC PICTURE WARNING}

Hello everyone. This has been a very rough few days for me. On Sunday September the 2nd, I lost my very first pied hatchling. It was a brutal and heartbreaking moment, and only now do I have the strength to post about it.

Things did not go as planned with this clutch. Due to the earlier temp spike, I was running the incubator at 83/84. I knew this meant the eggs would develop more slowly, so I wasn't overly concerned. On day 64 I decided to cut the eggs. Figuring this should be plenty late enough. Two of the four eggs remained attached to each other through incubation, which is never a big deal. However, when I attempted to separate the eggs before cutting the clutch, I noticed they did not want to come apart. Now all the other clutches I've had, which granted are not many, the eggs separated easily when the clutch was ready. So I knew then these eggs were not ready to cut. But my impatient hubby was hovering over my shoulder wanting to know if I had hit the pied, and his insistence coupled with my own impatience conspired to drown out the voice of reason that told me to wait. So I decided I'd just very carefully force the eggs apart.

No matter how careful one is, things can go wrong and I am sure the experienced keepers here already know what happened. I tore a hole in one of the eggs. Now, in and of itself that is not the end of the world, but I had turned the eggs in order to get better leverage to separate them, and the hole opened up in the worst possible spot, with the eggs upside down. Now comes the guilt, the remorse, the "I knew better than to do this!". But of course the damage was done. I clipped a small flap over the hole in the egg and peeked in. It was a pied. Now I felt even worse. I had put my much longed for baby in danger because I got impatient. I feared of course a twisted umbilicus or worse, a torn one. But I gently laid the eggs back in the box, and clipped the other two. Finding another pied and a het. After a few days, I decided the eggs should be further along, and could be separated now. Well, they wouldn't separate, and in the attempt I managed to make a hole in the bottom egg. At this point I wanted to bash my head into a wall. This egg proved to be a het. An upside down het, with what appeared to be a twisted umbilical, my great fear.

Days passed, and the two eggs that were now upside down did not appear to be progressing. Worse, they began growing bacteria. I flushed them daily and held my breath. Eventually I did get them apart, which by then didn't really help matters. More days passed. There were no signs of the babies pipping on their own, which made me realize they were much earlier in development than I had thought. Much earlier. Day by day I flushed the eggs, watched the slime grow and prayed they would be alright. Day by day I berated myself for being so foolish with this most important clutch. Then one day, the little pied pipped. He had his head out and appeared to be doing ok despite everything. The het would not pip, and neither would the other two eggs.

The day after the pied pipped and I posted it's picture, I took the tub out late Sunday evening, and noticed the pied seemed to be out further than it had on Saturday. I felt this was a good sign. Until I touched him, and he was limp and cold. I knew then he had died. I fell completely to pieces. Rocking back and forth, moaning and crying. It's one of the worst pains I have ever felt. I had killed my very first pied, the one I had waited so long for. It was all my fault. Frightened now, I pulled myself together long enough to cut the top off the het egg. Only to find that like the pied, he was not absorbing his yolk, and his egg was dark with bacterial slime. I decided I had to act or loose another baby. So I called up the sticky on tangled umbilicals and with it's guidance I cut the little one free. He was limp and thin and not moving, and I was sure he would not survive the night.

Even in my great grief I knew I needed to document what had happened, and through my tears I managed a few pictures. I warn you they are very hard to look at. It took me several tries to get them uploaded tonight. The pied I lost was really something, his back nearly fully striped, and he had a lovely little cross in the middle of his back. As you can see he had a lot of yolk left. The het is pitifully small, and had a huge yolk left. Take a deep breath and steady yourself before you look.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/IMG_0436.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/IMG_0437.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/IMG_0438.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/IMG_0439.jpg


Now for the happy ending. The two remaining eggs took their own sweet time, but yesterday morning the other pied pipped, and by last night had emerged. He or she is nearly my perfect 50/50 pied. I am so very grateful to get this other pied baby. Who is strong and healthy and a whopping 74 grams right out of the egg. The little het pied pulled through, and last night his cut umbilical fell off and he climbed out of his deli cup to join the pied. So I believe as small as he is, he's going to pull through. Now I'm just waiting on the last het, who's been poking his head out today. Now for the good pictures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/IMG_0445.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...IMG_0441-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...s/IMG_0443.jpg

I love the little tail on the pied. How it's colored most of the way and then just the tip is white again. This baby will almost certainly be staying with me, boy or girl, because it represents how close I came to loosing everything with this clutch. And it will remind me that good can be found in just about everything.

Gale

That little pied that survived is just beautiful! Sorry to hear about the other. :(

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Your story was heartbreaking, but it was really insightful for me (who hopes to have clutches myself one day) so thank you for telling it. Sometimes bad things happen but I'm glad you got your pied and a nice little het too. Let us know if the pied is a boy or a girl.

I'm sorry for your loss!! D:}
I'm glad there was some good that came out of all of this for you.
That is a beautiful 50/50 pied.

Making mistakes is part of being human, don't beat yourself up too much as I'm sure you and many who read this thread will learn something of it. I'm sorry for your loss yet ecstatic for your survivors - congratulations for those beautiful, very special babies.

Oh Gale, I am so sorry you lost the little pied, I couldn't even imagine.... I am glad your second pied is healthy and I will be praying for the little het. Keep us posted as you are able.

I am sorry to hear about your experience, but I do appreciate you sharing. If I can take something positive away from your story and others like it, it would be to just wait and let nature happen. I have read too many threads where cutting did not change the contents in the egg, but dramatically changed the outcome of the process, and rarely for the better. It does seem to be a condition of people today, the need to know now. It is probably a result if the internet providing instantaneous answers.

Congratulations on the others. The pied that did hatch is absolutely gorgeous and is everything I could hope to have in a pied one day. I really love medium pieds and the balance of that little guy is nice.

Awww. So sorry for your losses. That little pied is just so cute and so is the little het. You have helped me learn a lot from your post. I really want to breed in a few years and this has helped me learn already.

Your survivor pied is absolutely beautiful! Congrats on your first pied clutch, and I'm sorry that the first pied didn't make it :(

Im so sorry about the lost little one! My thoughts are with you!
The surviving pied is gorgeous though!

Oh Gale! I'm so sorry about the first little pied. I almost cried just reading about it. I can't begin to imagine...But congratulations on your beautiful survivor pied and het siblings! That little 50/50 pied is absolutely perfect and I pray that the little het pulls through and thrives. :)

This was an invaluable lesson for us all, I'm just sorry that you had to go through it. Thank you for sharing.

Sorry to hear you lost your first pied, but you did have some good come out of this clutch. I lost a pin and two normals this year (twisted cords) so I can relate.

Sorry for your loss Gale, we just lost our pewter het clown baby in the egg from the same thing, twisted umbilical, still kind of in shock over the whole thing :(

I know how hard this must be on you. To wait all that time and to suffer the loss. Thanks for posting, that had to be hard too. However, your posting my help others in a similar situation.

On a happier note, that pied looks beautiful. You are right, that tail is really cool. Hope they do well for you.

I too am sorry for ur loss but in my opinion that pied u got is 100% perfect and I love how the tip of the tail is perfectly white.


1.0 normal bp- Blitz
1.0 Nicaraguan boa- Gavin
0.1 Red Tail Boa- Tara

First: Twisted cords? I've hatched out over 1000 ball pythons eggs and NEVER have I seen a twisted cord. You people worry me...
Next, Gale; You can take this any way you want, but unfortunately, this entire season for you has been a wonderful education for those reading NOT to do what you've done; from cutting to early, to ripping holes in your eggs, temp spikes and horrifically deformed babies that weren't culled. It's sad that it all happened during the same season, but I really do hope that everyone can learn from your mistakes.
Mostly you.
Good luck next year.

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Originally Posted by mykee

First: Twisted cords? I've hatched out over 1000 ball pythons eggs and NEVER have I seen a twisted cord. You people worry me...
Next, Gale; You can take this any way you want, but unfortunately, this entire season for you has been a wonderful education for those reading NOT to do what you've done; from cutting to early, to ripping holes in your eggs, temp spikes and horrifically deformed babies that weren't culled. It's sad that it all happened during the same season, but I really do hope that everyone can learn from your mistakes.
Mostly you.
Good luck next year.

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Never? I had one last year. The cord was literally wrapped right around the snake, and then it was almost as if the yolk had threaded itself back through the loop. It was literally in a knot. I know the yolk itself didn't actually go back through, it must have been the snake. It happens. I don't know why though.

Not much comment on the rest of the thread...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mykee

First: Twisted cords? I've hatched out over 1000 ball pythons eggs and NEVER have I seen a twisted cord. You people worry me...
Next, Gale; You can take this any way you want, but unfortunately, this entire season for you has been a wonderful education for those reading NOT to do what you've done; from cutting to early, to ripping holes in your eggs, temp spikes and horrifically deformed babies that weren't culled. It's sad that it all happened during the same season, but I really do hope that everyone can learn from your mistakes.
Mostly you.
Good luck next year.

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Why does it not surprise me to see a post from you that screams "I know more than you and am better than everyone else"?

I, too, had a baby that had a twisted umbilical cord this season that didn't make it. To err is human, which from all your posts I see clearly you are not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mykee

First: Twisted cords? I've hatched out over 1000 ball pythons eggs and NEVER have I seen a twisted cord. You people worry me...
Next, Gale; You can take this any way you want, but unfortunately, this entire season for you has been a wonderful education for those reading NOT to do what you've done; from cutting to early, to ripping holes in your eggs, temp spikes and horrifically deformed babies that weren't culled. It's sad that it all happened during the same season, but I really do hope that everyone can learn from your mistakes.
Mostly you.
Good luck next year.

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Talk about rude and insensitive.
Just because you have never experienced a twisted cord in one of your clutches, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You've been extremely lucky. You should be very thankful it hasn't happened to you instead of going off on Gale. She has already acknowledged her mistakes and she's blaming herself enough. Triple tapping isn't enough for you?

Every post I have seen from you is rather disturbing and rude. Guess I shouldn't be surprised of the lack of sympathy from someone who just "throws" everything that isn't perfect into the freezer.....

Well, I expect no less from a looser like you, however the wonderful thing about the internet is I can ignore the jerks I choose to, that is SUCH a wonderful feature here. You just continue to congratulate yourself on being the only ball python breeder ever in the universe who never had an accident.

Now, to those who's opinion actually matters to me.

Yes, this is a lesson learned the hard way. That is why I took the time in the midst of my grief to document what happened. For all those of us living in the real world where accidents do happen, like the member who's cat knocked over the incubator while he was a at work and spilled his clutch onto the floor, it is important to remember bad things can happen even to the best of us. I seem to remember Markus Jayne hatching an eyeless bumblebee recently. I'd love for someone to tell him what a bad person and breeder he is. Ben Seigel has a few eyeless as well. I guess we all know not to buy from them ever again.

All that aside, yes this was intended to show people with little experience, which includes myself, that things can and do go wrong, and steps that can be taken to help prevent it. Of course, contrary to what some people believe, you can do everything right and still have things go wrong, at least for those of us living on planet Earth. So yes, I know I caused this to happen. I never said I didn't. My intention is to show those who are new to breeding, that it's not going to be all sunshine and roses and perfect babies. Reality sucks, so learn from my mistake and don't make the same one yourself.

And as to culling the eyeless babies, they are eating and growing just fine and I see no reason to cull. By your definition, I guess all the blind people of the world should be put to death as well, hmmm? While we are at it, lets put all the deaf people to death, not to mention the babies born with defects. It is after all the responsible thing to do. Those born with dwarfism should go as well, and all those born without their full mental capacity can be added to the list. Of course, that would mean you would go as well, but hey I'm okay with that. Then we need to add the people like Sean Bradley who fell and was paralyzed from the chest down, since he's not perfect anymore. All the soldiers who have lost limbs in combat can go as well. As we can certainly clear out the old folks homes while we are at it, since most of them are no where near perfect anymore. All the police officers and firefighters who have been seriously injured in the line of duty can go. You know what ? I think you singlehandedly figured out the way to end overpopulation!

Now that I have that out of my system.

The other het emerged this morning, and has a lovely banded pattern. It's big baby too, at 78 grams. I will be posting updates after the babies shed and begin to feed, for those people here whom I actually care to hear from, since I know most of the people here aren't such { an impolite term for a donkey }.

Gale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

...and all those born without their full mental capacity can be added to the list. Of course, that would mean you would go as well, but hey I'm okay with that.

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:rofl::rofl::rofl:

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

The other het emerged this morning, and has a lovely banded pattern. It's big baby too, at 78 grams. I will be posting updates after the babies shed and begin to feed, for those people here whom I actually care to hear from, since I know most of the people here aren't such { an impolite term for a donkey }.

Gale

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Yay! Glad to hear the little one is doing well! You got a couple of big babies! :D Looking forward to the updates...and loving your snarky comments. ;)

Sorry about this result, keep your head up.

Im sorry for your loss and happy for your survivors. After all the forums of many types i have been on, somehow i knew there was going to be the one dueche that had something to say. It was just a matter of time.

BTW : beautiful pied you got yourself there !

Truly sorry for the losses. :( The surviving babies are beautiful, though, and congrats on hitting your pied.

Ok folks.

No more personal attacks or name calling.

I realise this is a touchy subject but there are better ways of dealing with disagreements.


dr del

Sorry Derek,

I know better, but sometimes when a nerve gets touched in the wrong way I loose it a little bit. I will be good from now on I promise.

Gale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Sorry Derek,

I know better, but sometimes when a nerve gets touched in the wrong way I loose it a little bit. I will be good from now on I promise.

Gale

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Personally, I think you handled that very well.

My most sincere condolences on the first baby, I've never lost a baby before (er, never had a hatchling to lose...) so I have no idea how it feels - but I'm guessing its somewhere in the neighborhood of gut wrenching and awful. The other pied is absolutely adorable, and that tail is to cute for words. I'm glad the other het came out as well, and hopefully everybody gets to thriving for you.

We all make mistakes, we are human. Breathe deep, and carry on, cause that's what reality and life are going to do, so we might as well keep up. :) Good luck Lady, I hope things turn around for you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mykee

First: Twisted cords? I've hatched out over 1000 ball pythons eggs and NEVER have I seen a twisted cord. You people worry me...
Next, Gale; You can take this any way you want, but unfortunately, this entire season for you has been a wonderful education for those reading NOT to do what you've done; from cutting to early, to ripping holes in your eggs, temp spikes and horrifically deformed babies that weren't culled. It's sad that it all happened during the same season, but I really do hope that everyone can learn from your mistakes.
Mostly you.
Good luck next year.

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What a terrible comment to someone that took the time to post there mistake. To teach other people! You must know everything in the world I can see this by your post. Gale thank you for taking the time to post your experience, it will teach many people. Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Hello everyone. This has been a very rough few days for me. On Sunday September the 2nd, I lost my very first pied hatchling. It was a brutal and heartbreaking moment, and only now do I have the strength to post about it.

Things did not go as planned with this clutch. Due to the earlier temp spike, I was running the incubator at 83/84. I knew this meant the eggs would develop more slowly, so I wasn't overly concerned. On day 64 I decided to cut the eggs. Figuring this should be plenty late enough. Two of the four eggs remained attached to each other through incubation, which is never a big deal. However, when I attempted to separate the eggs before cutting the clutch, I noticed they did not want to come apart. Now all the other clutches I've had, which granted are not many, the eggs separated easily when the clutch was ready. So I knew then these eggs were not ready to cut. But my impatient hubby was hovering over my shoulder wanting to know if I had hit the pied, and his insistence coupled with my own impatience conspired to drown out the voice of reason that told me to wait. So I decided I'd just very carefully force the eggs apart.

Gale

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Cut on days 64 ????...wasn't it should be okay??
i had 4 clutch and cut at 54-55 days.... and they alive??

was it because the temp??? 83/84?

sorry to hear that though.... Keep on Trying.....

@raghaim
Wait until they pip. Treating infections with saline, feeling terrible about yourself because you killed life and if you'd waited it could have been better, is not something I recommend.

I'm on day 57 and I will wait for them to pip. I'll wait til day 69 if I have to. I'm sure they can do it on their own. They did last year.

BTW, thanks for this thread. Keeps me stronger on the idea of not cutting until one of them pokes their head out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldSheep

@raghaim
Wait until they pip. Treating infections with saline, feeling terrible about yourself because you killed life and if you'd waited it could have been better, is not something I recommend.

I'm on day 57 and I will wait for them to pip. I'll wait til day 69 if I have to. I'm sure they can do it on their own. They did last year.

BTW, thanks for this thread. Keeps me stronger on the idea of not cutting until one of them pokes their head out.

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i mean whats wrong with the pied..... i cut my clutch on days 54 and they alive.... now they already eat 5 times.... i wonder what makes the difference....

this thread's pied eggs already at 64 days... and it still not strong enough to live???

from what i read... the difference is the incubator temp..... is incubator temp makes that huge causes ??/

thanks

Sorry for the loss of the first 2 hatchlings. I too have never had twisted cords with hatchlings (thank god) and hope that I never do. I'm not saying I'm perfect/better because this has never happened to me. I'm just very lucky so far.

As for your clutch, at least you had a happy ending. Everyone likes a happy ending:D

Raghaim,

Yes it was the lower temperatures that slowed development. Most breeders, including myself, incubate around 88/89. However, earlier in the incubation process, I had a very high temp spike. The incubator reached 120 before I caught it. It caused birth defects in some of my earlier clutches. So, when I got it working again, I kept the temps lower. This greatly slowed the development of my last two clutches.

My last clutch is still in the egg, but the first didn't pip until day 67.

So far I have only lost the pied from this clutch. The little runt boy finally shed out his egg skin two days ago, and he's eaten twice with assistance.

Gale

So sorry for your loss. I am very glad you managed to keep at least one pied baby. :(

I'm sure mykee knew he would get flamed after posting it, reminds me vaguely of willomn haha.

Besides that, Gale, very sorry to hear your first pied clutch had a few upsets. Best part of it is you learned valuable lessons and have educated many people on ways to prevent those upsets.

Thank you very much for sharing your story and that 2nd pied that emerged is killer! best of luck with future clutches