I'm speechless right now...

Back when I first got into ball pythons, I really wanted a pied but couldn't even afford a pair of hets. So I bought 2 male het pieds from a friend, bred them to normals and kept the girls. This year, I bred the daughters of one male to the other male, and vice versa. I have a total of 4 possible het pied girls, two for each male.

As some of you know, we have been maternally incubating this year. Our Het Pied x 50% Poss Het Pied eggs are at day 71 today and I moved mom slightly to peek at them. Well, she decided not to get back on the eggs, so I decided to cut them and put them in the incubator. So, all the babies look healthy,but the outcome was not at all what we were expecting. 7 babies look normal (there's a slight chance that one is a low white pied, but I'm almost positive it is normal). But baby #8 is an albino!!!!!

Soooo...now what? There are two possibilites as I see it...either there was some sort of mixup and the males I got were really het albino OR I have double hets. I'm really curious now...I got eggs from two other possible het pieds, and one from the sire of this clutch to a 100% pied from a different breeder. Obviously, if one of the normals turns out to be a low white pied, they are double hets...and if I get a pied from the 100% het pairing then at least daddy must be a double het. So any advice on proving out what I have is appreciated.

I got the het pieds with the goal of making double het albino pieds once I produced a pied...I really hope I am getting a head start...At least I know mom is 100% for albino, she could have turned out to be a normal:)

Wow that's nuts. Looks like you have some more breeding to do!

we want PICS :)))))))))))

Wow, what a cool surprise!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Now shoot for albino pied!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh wow! Thats insane! Fingers crossed for a low white pied in there too and then . . . eventually somewhere down the line an albino pied! one of the coolest morphs on the planet IMO! Good luck and keep us posted! And of course we want pics!

The little maybe low white pied is being shy. I went to peek at them again and it had rearranged itself...I swore I saw white and went to grab a flashlight and when I got back the little bugger balled up again. I only cut small slits in the eggs, so no pics yet but you can bet I will post them as soon as they come out.

- - - Updated - - -

They should be out soon. They are at day 71 for goodness sake.

Wow, that would be a cool surprise, keep up posted!

And this is why this hobby is so fun.

Keeping my fingers crossed you've got double hets.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

I love this hobby more & more & it's because of posts such as yours! Here's to double hets; good luck!

Too cool. Good luck and I am anxiously awaiting the little one's emergence from the egg!

Thats a cool surprise!!!!! Congrats:gj::gj:

Thanks everyone! I spoke to the breeder who produced my original het males...looks like I am dealing with double hets!!! They are finally emerging. So far I have 2 males that are 66% poss het Albino 50% poss het Pied, a male Albino 50% het Pied (the first recessive morph we've ever produced), and a female 66% het Albino 50% het Pied with an awesome ringer that goes from her tail almost all the way to her neck. Here are a few pics:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...705_151002.jpg

Here's the ringer girl. The pics don't really show off how much orange she has on her belly but you get the idea:) :

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...705_142016.jpg

All the babies are out now. Here's a pic of the one I thought might be a low white pied. She's got a full body ringer or something...she tried to be a pied lol. I need to get better pics so you can really see...she's pretty cool IMO:)
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...5/5/php3_7.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...l_php_baby.jpg

Every now and then reading and hearing genetics from the BP morph community makes my head spin in a "Wait, what??". :)

Today it was the "66% het" mention. :confuse: Haha, I had to go back and dig around to see what it was you meant!

We (squishy science people) would say a Het x Het cross would have a 75% chance of yielding offspring that has at least one copy of the allele in question. If you don't see it, or ever get confused by crosses, draw yourself a "Punnetts square". Basically this:

Say we have a mom and a dad who are both heterozygous for pied, meaning (at least for this case) they have one wild-type (WT, Normal) allele and one Pied (let's call it, Pd), so their genotype would be written as Female, WT/Pd; Male, Wt/Pd. (Or Pp, "P" being "WT" and "p" being the "mutant", more officially).

A cross between the two in Punnett square form would look like:

________WT_______Pd

WT ____WT/WT_____WT/Pd


Pd_____WT/Pd______Pd/Pd


The parents are the top row and left most column (you split their alleles) and the offspring the combinations.

In this cross, if you had four offspring you would have 1 that would be homozygous WT, 2 heterozygous Pd, and one homozygous Pd.

In that case, 3/4 or 75% would have at least one copy of Pd, and 50% would be Hets, 25% homozygous Pd and WT.


.....anywho, now I'm rambling. What was my point again? :P

But we are not counting the visual pieds...because we can identify them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FireStorm

But we are not counting the visual pieds...because we can identify them.

---

Heh, yah, that's what threw me for a bit...."but, but...you can't get 66% from a cross!" ;) I take it then pied is a recessive allele? Or do the hets occasionally have some color to them? And just out of curiosity, do you or why do you not keep things as homozygotes? Seems like it'd be an easier way to maintain a particular trait if you have no other way of knowing for certain who's carrying a copy.

It all makes me very curious, I don't know a lot about ball python genetics but I wonder if anyone's tried mapping out any of the different traits....For example, are there some traits that always seem to segregate together? Are color and "scale pattern" separate traits or if you have a pinstripe is it always yellow or one particular color? Has anyone ever run across any defects associated with any of the morphs? In cats and dogs, white colored fur with blue or heterochromatic eyes has an increased tendency for blindness. Things like that. I r curious. :)

It's a shame no one's gotten around to sequencing the ball python genome, there's a close species but I don't know if it's annotated yet. Genotyping services are getting cheap enough that it would be fairly cost efficient to just send of a chunk of shed (I'd bet a fresh shed you could get a good amount of quality DNA out of) and figure out if your 66% chance of pied is really pied. Problem is it'd require a bit of foot-work from the breeders in order to figure out which alleles are tied to which trait and if they're the same genes or not or different mutations and what/where they were. Sequencing costs are going way way down every year, but you still have to know where it is your looking. Maybe in 5 years. Le sigh. :please:

There are certainly defects with certain morphs. The spider has a head wobble; desert females have their infertility.... Any female desert morph is affected by this too... The champ spider is what we call a Lethal morph - it doesnt survive long out of the egg... Sable spider is also one of these... Super cinnies tend to have some defects like duck bills and stuff theres a number of them out there...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmNomNom

Heh, yah, that's what threw me for a bit...."but, but...you can't get 66% from a cross!" ;) I take it then pied is a recessive allele? Or do the hets occasionally have some color to them? And just out of curiosity, do you or why do you not keep things as homozygotes? Seems like it'd be an easier way to maintain a particular trait if you have no other way of knowing for certain who's carrying a copy.

---

Yes, Pied is a recessive trait. There are "het pied markers" but it's not a sure thing. For example, I'd bet money that the hatchling I just posted pics of above is het Pied. But there are plenty of het Pieds out there that look completely normal.

As for why people work with hets, there are several reasons. When the first Pied was imported from Africa, it was bred to normals (making what the BP community calls 100% hets), since there were no other Pieds available. Then the hets could be bred to the original Pied, or to each other, to produce more Pieds.

The other reason for working with hets involves cost. When I bought my original males, Pieds were still a few thousand dollars, and a pair of 100% hets was over $1000. So I made possible hets, since a single het Pied male was significantly cheaper.

And the reason for lableing these babies as "possible double hets" is so that if they are sold, whoever gets them can try to prove them out if they wish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmNomNom

It all makes me very curious, I don't know a lot about ball python genetics but I wonder if anyone's tried mapping out any of the different traits....For example, are there some traits that always seem to segregate together? Are color and "scale pattern" separate traits or if you have a pinstripe is it always yellow or one particular color? Has anyone ever run across any defects associated with any of the morphs? In cats and dogs, white colored fur with blue or heterochromatic eyes has an increased tendency for blindness. Things like that. I r curious. :)

It's a shame no one's gotten around to sequencing the ball python genome, there's a close species but I don't know if it's annotated yet. Genotyping services are getting cheap enough that it would be fairly cost efficient to just send of a chunk of shed (I'd bet a fresh shed you could get a good amount of quality DNA out of) and figure out if your 66% chance of pied is really pied. Problem is it'd require a bit of foot-work from the breeders in order to figure out which alleles are tied to which trait and if they're the same genes or not or different mutations and what/where they were. Sequencing costs are going way way down every year, but you still have to know where it is your looking. Maybe in 5 years. Le sigh. :please:

---

Some traits are known to be allelic, for example Butter, Lesser Platinum, and Mojave, or Yellowbelly, Spector, Spark, and Het. Highway.

As for color and pattern mutations, a pinstripe is always one color unless it is combined with another morph, and then the possibilities are endless:)

There is no such thing as as a 50% het. It's just 66% het or 100%het

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoCalScales

There is no such thing as as a 50% het. It's just 66% het or 100%het

---

Visual (Homozygous) x Normal or Het = 100% hets
Het x Het = 66% possible hets (from the normal appearing offspring)
Het x Normal = 50% possible hets

At this point since mom isn't proven het Pied, the normal appearing offspring are 66% poss het Albino, 50% poss het Pied.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andybill

There are certainly defects with certain morphs. The spider has a head wobble; desert females have their infertility.... Any female desert morph is affected by this too... The champ spider is what we call a Lethal morph - it doesnt survive long out of the egg... Sable spider is also one of these... Super cinnies tend to have some defects like duck bills and stuff theres a number of them out there...

---

Interesting! (well, not for the lethals, I'm sure they would probably feel differently about the matter...) But I love seeing things like that...it means you've found something interesting/important! ....now if only we had the genome sequence. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FireStorm

Yes, Pied is a recessive trait. There are "het pied markers" but it's not a sure thing. For example, I'd bet money that the hatchling I just posted pics of above is het Pied. But there are plenty of het Pieds out there that look completely normal.

As for why people work with hets, there are several reasons. When the first Pied was imported from Africa, it was bred to normals (making what the BP community calls 100% hets), since there were no other Pieds available. Then the hets could be bred to the original Pied, or to each other, to produce more Pieds.

The other reason for working with hets involves cost. When I bought my original males, Pieds were still a few thousand dollars, and a pair of 100% hets was over $1000. So I made possible hets, since a single het Pied male was significantly cheaper.

And the reason for lableing these babies as "possible double hets" is so that if they are sold, whoever gets them can try to prove them out if they wish.


Some traits are known to be allelic, for example Butter, Lesser Platinum, and Mojave, or Yellowbelly, Spector, Spark, and Het. Highway.

As for color and pattern mutations, a pinstripe is always one color unless it is combined with another morph, and then the possibilities are endless:)

---

Very cool! I didn't realize the ball python community had kept such detailed track of all the morphs and possible alleles (I suppose that's kind of a "well, duh"). I just saw the "genetics calculator" someone has been making. From all that (if someone hasn't already) it should be possible to sit down and map out the different alleles and figure out which ones are the same genes (but different mutations) or genes on the same chromosome. Er....not sure if that would exactly be helpful...but it would be cool! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoCalScales

There is no such thing as as a 50% het. It's just 66% het or 100%het

---

The percentage only refers to the likeliness of a snake being het for something. There is such thing as 50% het:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FireStorm

Visual (Homozygous) x Normal or Het = 100% hets
Het x Het = 66% possible hets (from the normal appearing offspring)
Het x Normal = 50% possible hets

At this point since mom isn't proven het Pied, the normal appearing offspring are 66% poss het Albino, 50% poss het Pied.

---

LOL you beat me! ;)