Ball python "mills" *rant* (Not trying to offend anyone)

So I read a post in a thread somewhere that reminded me of an aspect of this hobby that bothers me quite a bit and not wanting to hijack that thread, I figured I would rant about it in my own darned thread :)

This would be the snake equivalent to puppy mills. People who see these animals as money-making breeding machines and little else. I have heard from more than one person (not necessarily on here) that their goal every year is to basically start power feeding their females the second they've laid so that they can lay even more next year; lather, rinse, repeat. I guess I understand that money is a strong motivator and BP's are a way to make money buuuuuut they are LIVING, FEELING, ANIMALS!!!

The idea of making them breed year after year after year just so you don't loose out on any money is repulsive to me. That's gotta be detrimental in some way. Every other year okay if they are healthy and well kept, and back to back sometimes if they really plump back up quickly and seem ready to go again. But please don't breed them to death. I look at my snakes and thinking of any of them being treated that way makes my heart feel sick. It almost makes me not want to breed so I can be sure I won't be selling any snakes that may be treated in this manner. That's not even touching on the people who hear they can "make lots of money breeding ball pythons" and get them but don't even bother to learn how to properly take care of them or are just too frugal to spend the money on proper basic husbandry tools or veterinary care.


Okay... well, I think I feel better. I just get sad thinking of how a lot of people treat animals: like they're expendable or just a product:(.

And to all of you who actually care about your snakes and really try to treat them the best you can and give them a good life: thank you, you're awesome!!!!:)

I don't see any issues with breeding 2 years in a row... if the female gets back up to size on a normal diet, and is willing to breed. If she wants to take the year off, fine by me. (i'll be disappointed sure... but I won't try to force her)

I'm not in it for the money, but I do have some projects that I would like to complete in a reasonable time frame. I think that you just have to know your animals capabilities and use good judgment.

I agree with you that BP's shouldn't be thought of as money making machines, but I don't see any issue with making money off of them if it is done in a respectful and responsible way.

I don't think I've come across too many people on this forum that are solely in it for the money, so I'm really not sure where you are seeing this. The people (generally) on this forum, especially the people that frequent it, absolutely 100% adore this hobby, and everything that comes along with it...which includes breeding. I also would like to know where you got your info that it is not perfectly healthy for snakes to breed every year? Can you provide links and/or citations?

While I see very few people here who feel this way, they are out there.

I do know where you are coming from, it sickens me to hear people say they want their females back on food as soon as possible so they'll be able to lay an even bigger clutch and make them more money. That to me is wrong.

For me, I want my females back eating because I hate the thought of her going 6 or 7 months without eating. Pregnancy is tough, and birth even harder. I want her to be able to rest and recover her strength and get back in top condition, even if it takes two years for her to reach that point. When I see how pitifully thin and drained my girls are after laying, I just want them to feel better soon. And if I don't think she's ready to breed again in 6 months or so when the season starts, then she's getting a break until I think she is.

And I refuse to feed her extra heavy just to get her back to some magic number that says she can be bred again. Numbers mean diddly squat. She needs to be nice and round and muscular again, so that I think she is capable of having more eggs.

And I don't have a problem breeding my girls two years in a row if I feel they are in good enough condition. I learned early on that if she doesn't think she's ready for more eggs, you aren't going to get any, no matter what your numbers tell you. But I draw the line at two. Even if she thinks she's ready again, I reserve the right to tell her no, wait until next year.

Gale

I can use this past season as an example. I have a normal imported female I picked up last year. She was bred and laid on 4/17/11 and laid 4 fertile eggs and 1 slug. She ate 2 days after laying and gained some good weight so I paired her up again this past season.

She laid 6 fertile eggs on 4/11/12 and they all just hatched out perfectly healthy. She is doing great and ate 3 days after laying.

I am not in this for just money, but do understand that this is far from a free hobby. So I can understand peoples desire to make some cash, but definitely wouldn't agree with forcing action for the sole purpose of making quick cash.

Also an interesting note, the female of mine I was talking about locked up within 10 minutes of first introduction, so I think she wanted to go lol

Based on what I've read on the forums, from big breeder's blogs, and youtube channels, you really can't force ball pythons to do anything...

Sure you can try to offer rodents to your snake as often as possible, but then you run the risk of the animal going off feed! They will eat when they want to!

You can pair every single male to your female, but if she doesn't want to produce eggs, she won't! If they feel that they're ready, they'll go! If you had control over this, nobody would recommend buying MULTIPLE females in case one doesn't want to breed... Heck, same goes with males! Sometimes males are just not ready for the occasion!

Unless the person is literally force-feeding his ball pythons to grow up to size, it doesn't really bother me what everyone else is doing in their breeding venture... Their motives don't bother me either... You say they want to breed for money? How can they guarantee that they'll make money AND mistreat the animals? I want to breed to produce morphs that nobody has seen. I want to produce COOL morph combos, and not so much the 7-gene snakes lol. I'll consider myself successful if I was able to do all of this for free.. If I can hatch out an enchi pied that looks as good as the one in the Ozzyboids collection, I'll feel like I succeeded...

Whoever is breeding "for the money" is sadly misinformed LOL. They've got to be extremely lucky to be able to "get rich quick" :gj:.

Who are these people who see them as money breeding machines and little else? Breeding and caring for animals is hard, dirty work that is not a free ride for easy money. There are plenty of other hobbies and jobs that pay a lot more and for a lot less work. The love of animals HAS to be there or it quickly becomes seriously not fun. This is the reason there is such a huge turnover in new breeders... here one season and gone the next after they realize the work involved.

I would agree that there may be introductory breeders that start for the money but they quickly quit if they don't also have a genuine love for the animals.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I want to breed to produce morphs that nobody has seen. I want to produce COOL morph combos, and not so much the 7-gene snakes lol. I'll consider myself successful if I was able to do all of this for free..

Whoever is breeding "for the money" is sadly misinformed LOL. They've got to be extremely lucky to be able to "get rich quick" :gj:.

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Either they are extremely lucky or they already have a ton of money so as to buy enough that when the time comes to breed them they immediately make a profit...

And I am in the same boat. I dont plan on making any 7 bangers but if i can create some originals and a good majority of my favorite combo morphs and just break even I will be happy! Heck I dont think I have to break even I dont mind spending money on my animals. I spend more on them than I do on myself...

To me its therapy. For some odd reason we all love these snakes and there's something about them that touches our heart. Breeding them is just a bonus and fun to produce that snake you've always wanted and thats mainly what I see it as. Of course I love money and am drove by it. I used to buy and sell snakes a few years ago Im not going to lie. But over time I realized how kind of wrong that was because they aren't a car, or a cell phone, or anything you can buy and sell but they're awesome animals. And since i've been stuck and will continue my breeding journey forEVA.

Sorry for the bad word!

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals. I dont see alot of what you are talking about as far as "mill" type of behavior as you see it. Im sure their are many people that do this for the wrong reasons but I dont think its common practice among people who actually appreciate these animals (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who just see $ signs). Also in the wild these animals as well as almost every other species on the planet breed annually so I dont see an issue with that as long as they are recovered and healthy to do so. Wonderful topic but Im hoping it only applies to a rare few individuals.:gj:

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals.

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Nonsense.

That may be all well and good for yo, but don't you think it rather narrow minded of you to force your point of view on everyone else?

Personally, I don't love my snakes. I don't think I ever have. I like em and I'm quite fond of a few, but love isn't even close.

From what you, and some others have said, perhaps not meaning to, I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. Frankly I laugh out loud at your arrogance.

So many forget, when they get up on that soap box, that what they're espousing is an OPINION. Opinions are points of view. Points of view are a way of seeing something. A way of seeing something is generally not found existing alone. There is almost always more than one, often many more than one, way of seeing the same information and arriving at differing conclusions with none being more valid or valuable, nor enforceable for that matter, than any other.

If someone wants to breed ten thousand normals a year, so long as the animals are properly kept, what business is it of anyone else's?

I kinda get tired of folks who think they're 'better than' simply because of a point of view, an opinion, of no more inherent validity than ANY OTHER opinion out there.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

While I see very few people here who feel this way, they are out there.

I do know where you are coming from, it sickens me to hear people say they want their females back on food as soon as possible so they'll be able to lay an even bigger clutch and make them more money. That to me is wrong.

For me, I want my females back eating because I hate the thought of her going 6 or 7 months without eating. Pregnancy is tough, and birth even harder. I want her to be able to rest and recover her strength and get back in top condition, even if it takes two years for her to reach that point. When I see how pitifully thin and drained my girls are after laying, I just want them to feel better soon. And if I don't think she's ready to breed again in 6 months or so when the season starts, then she's getting a break until I think she is.

And I refuse to feed her extra heavy just to get her back to some magic number that says she can be bred again. Numbers mean diddly squat. She needs to be nice and round and muscular again, so that I think she is capable of having more eggs.

And I don't have a problem breeding my girls two years in a row if I feel they are in good enough condition. I learned early on that if she doesn't think she's ready for more eggs, you aren't going to get any, no matter what your numbers tell you. But I draw the line at two. Even if she thinks she's ready again, I reserve the right to tell her no, wait until next year.

Gale

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Originally Posted by domenge

Sorry for the bad word!

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals. I dont see alot of what you are talking about as far as "mill" type of behavior as you see it. Im sure their are many people that do this for the wrong reasons but I dont think its common practice among people who actually appreciate these animals (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who just see $ signs). Also in the wild these animals as well as almost every other species on the planet breed annually so I dont see an issue with that as long as they are recovered and healthy to do so. Wonderful topic but Im hoping it only applies to a rare few individuals.:gj:

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Same here, Gale. Well, I haven't had babies yet but I will want my girls healthy again asap.

Its okay, Domenge :)

I agree with everyone and I'm so glad that people on this forum don't just jump down people's throats if they disagree with a post, awesome guys! I had just read a post by someone on another site or maybe here..... *don't want to point fingers* talking about how they start power feeding the second their snake has laid because if they don't bulk her up quickly do she'll lay more next season they'll lose out on thousands. The way they just kept mentioning the money aspect, it really seemed like the only real concern. I think its awesome to make money from breeding, even better if you actually come out on top -but not if that's all you care about. They may have honestly just chose bad wording and that's not really their feelings, but it read that way to me and a friend I showed the post to.

I also agree that breeding a couple years in a row is fine, maybe more but you need to really use judgment and care about their welfare and I have heard (not often) people sound like they really just care about pumping out expensive babies. A good example of this, I told I guy I know who runs a local reptile store that I had a female who had fasted the last 6 months despite trying EVERYTHING since I got her in November and had gone from 1500 grams to 1300. His answer was that she could be wild caught and going to starve herself to death and to start locking her up now so that at least I can get some babies out of her. This really upset me and seemed like the wrong attitude. I did half take his advice, I had been thinking that locking her with a male might get her eating and it WORKED! She was with Fire Lord Ozai for a week and he *Barry White voice* showed her riiight and now she eats every week :)

Yea, I agree that most people who want to "get rich" from breeding wind up getting tired of it, but it doesn't stop a lot of idiots from buying some and mistreating them until they give up. A friend of mine has a normal female who was in horrible shape when she got her and the guy who originally had her got her because he thought he could make tons of money off the babies but never really bothered to care for her. He thought she would just do it all herself and he could profit, from what I could tell. After a while he realized it wasn't happening and dumped the snakes.

I'm really hoping its not super common, its just sad how some people see animals as just another object and value money so much higher than the life or comfort of a living thing. Last year when Cthulhu, our then baby corn and first snake escaped and got into our pet rat's cage and got BADLY attacked in the middle of the night and I was looking for any help anywhere, calling vets, looking online, ECT. I saw one similar post on a website somewhere where a corn was badly injured and the person was asking advice on what to do. The first answer was (paraphrasing): "corn snakes are very inexpensive snakes so I would just let it die rather than waste money on a vet. Its just not worth spending more on the vet bill than you did on the snake."

At the time I really thought Cthulhu was going to die and reading that just made me bawl harder. It made me want to find them and scream at them, "DON'T OWN AN ANIMAL IF YOU WON'T/ CAN'T TAKE CARE OF IT, EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!!!!" I feel that this is the agreement you make when you chose to own a life.


I really just wish everyone could just only have animals if they really care about the animals. Almost everyone on here shows that they truly care about their snakes and I applaud it :)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Nonsense.

That may be all well and good for yo, but don't you think it rather narrow minded of you to force your point of view on everyone else?

Personally, I don't love my snakes. I don't think I ever have. I like em and I'm quite fond of a few, but love isn't even close.

From what you, and some others have said, perhaps not meaning to, I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. Frankly I laugh out loud at your arrogance.

So many forget, when they get up on that soap box, that what they're espousing is an OPINION. Opinions are points of view. Points of view are a way of seeing something. A way of seeing something is generally not found existing alone. There is almost always more than one, often many more than one, way of seeing the same information and arriving at differing conclusions with none being more valid or valuable, nor enforceable for that matter, than any other.

If someone wants to breed ten thousand normals a year, so long as the animals are properly kept, what business is it of anyone else's?

I kinda get tired of folks who think they're 'better than' simply because of a point of view, an opinion, of no more inherent validity than ANY OTHER opinion out there.

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I never tried to claim to be better than anyone and I am merely voicing my own opinion, as you have stated. Not trying to force an opinion but I'm assuming you at least ensure that your snakes are well cared for. I personally wouldn't breed animals that I didn't care about, but that's just me. I do hope that if one of your snakes got sick you would treat it rather than just dump it in lieu of spending money on it.

Oh and I meant to add: Thanks for reminding me about the stubbornness of BP's, guys. Lol, I hadn't thought about the inability to make them do anything they don't want to.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Nonsense.

That may be all well and good for yo, but don't you think it rather narrow minded of you to force your point of view on everyone else?

Personally, I don't love my snakes. I don't think I ever have. I like em and I'm quite fond of a few, but love isn't even close.

From what you, and some others have said, perhaps not meaning to, I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. Frankly I laugh out loud at your arrogance.

So many forget, when they get up on that soap box, that what they're espousing is an OPINION. Opinions are points of view. Points of view are a way of seeing something. A way of seeing something is generally not found existing alone. There is almost always more than one, often many more than one, way of seeing the same information and arriving at differing conclusions with none being more valid or valuable, nor enforceable for that matter, than any other.

If someone wants to breed ten thousand normals a year, so long as the animals are properly kept, what business is it of anyone else's?

I kinda get tired of folks who think they're 'better than' simply because of a point of view, an opinion, of no more inherent validity than ANY OTHER opinion out there.

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Gee, Im sorry, did I offend you? Let me rephrase that so you can understand. In order for someone to do something well and enjoy doing it, maybe first they should have a passion(love) for it. IDK, just makes sense to me. Dont lecture me cupcake, I know what your talking about. Narrow minded, yeah, Im the one.LOL.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals. I dont see alot of what you are talking about as far as "mill" type of behavior as you see it. Im sure their are many people that do this for the wrong reasons but I dont think its common practice among people who actually appreciate these animals (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who just see $ signs). Also in the wild these animals as well as almost every other species on the planet breed annually so I dont see an issue with that as long as they are recovered and healthy to do so. Wonderful topic but Im hoping it only applies to a rare few individuals.:gj:

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I have always figured that most animals in the wild had an annual breeding cycle but wouldn't actually breed every year due to the hardships of the wild....although I could be wrong and of course I suppose in captivity there are no hardships or scarcity of food....still it just feels to me like they should be given breaks at least occasionally or it will be harmful long-term

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

Gee, Im sorry, did I offend you? Let me rephrase that so you can understand. In order for someone to do something well and enjoy doing it, maybe first they should have a passion(love) for it. IDK, just makes sense to me. Dont lecture me cupcake, I know what your talking about. Narrow minded, yeah, Im the one.LOL.

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Well 'darlin' if you know what I'm talking about, about which I have serious doubts, then you know doubt know what I have to say to your well placed quip.

Once you get your head out maybe you should do a panty check. I think yours may be wadding up.

I personally don't currently have an interest in breeding for several reasons. One is the work involved, but honestly my biggest reason is not knowing exactly what type of person is getting my potential hatchlings. To make any money, you can't exactly background check your buyers or give them a husbandry quiz before delivery. It would kill me to just hand the babies I bred over to strangers who could potentially be the type of keepers we all rant about on the "new rescue" threads. So from that standpoint, I can see how it HAS To be a least somewhat about the money or you never sell a hatchling. Personally, it would kill me.

I really just enjoy caring from my snake and making sure she has a happy, comfortable home with nice soft substrate and a warm place to hide. Everyone finds their passion in a different place in this hobby. For some it is the joy of breeding, and that's fine. For me, it is creating an environment for my little snake to thrive. I absolutely love animal husbandry. I have the most fun reassembling my viv after I clean it and watching my snake explore it when I put her back. I have no desire to breed her, I just want her to feel at home.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

"DON'T OWN AN ANIMAL IF YOU WON'T/ CAN'T TAKE CARE OF IT, EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!!!!" I feel that this is the agreement you make when you chose to own a life.
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Oh my gosh, I agree with this so much. How much your car is worth should dictate what you spend on maintenance, but what you spend on an animal should NEVER dictate how much you spend to care for it. When you take a living thing into your care, it is your responsibility to assure it never suffers if you have the power to help it.

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Originally Posted by Emily Hubbard

I personally don't currently have an interest in breeding for several reasons. One is the work involved, but honestly my biggest reason is not knowing exactly what type of person is getting my potential hatchlings. To make any money, you can't exactly background check your buyers or give them a husbandry quiz before delivery. It would kill me to just hand the babies I bred over to strangers who could potentially be the type of keepers we all rant about on the "new rescue" threads. So from that standpoint, I can see how it HAS To be a least somewhat about the money or you never sell a hatchling. Personally, it would kill me.

I really just enjoy caring from my snake and making sure she has a happy, comfortable home with nice soft substrate and a warm place to hide. Everyone finds their passion in a different place in this hobby. For some it is the joy of breeding, and that's fine. For me, it is creating an environment for my little snake to thrive. I absolutely love animal husbandry. I have the most fun reassembling my viv after I clean it and watching my snake explore it when I put her back. I have no desire to breed her, I just want her to feel at home.

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I personally ask every buyer if they know how to care for them and I sell every snake with a care sheet so there is no excuse for them not to properly treat them well. I think it is part of our job as owners/breeders to educate!

I'm going to have to throw my $0.02 in with Aaron, hooblah, and wilomn on this one. Why does it matter what a breeder/owner's intentions are, as long as the animal is being properly cared for? Ball pythons don't pine away for us to pet them - most are perfectly content if they are left alone completely (not counting feeding, etc., of course). I have personally seen more snakes, of all types, that were damaged by owners with good intentions (but poor information or motivation), than those who kept them primarily for breeding purposes. After all, if your females can produce $1000+ clutches for you two out of three years, or three out of four, or whatever, isn't it in your best interests to keep her healthy and alive?

Add: Oh, and I absolutely agree that we should help educate others whenever possible. After all, isn't that a big part of why we are all on BP.net?

As long as you take care of your snakes i could care less how you feel about them or what you get out of them. If you just breed for the money thats fine by me, as long as your snakes are kept in good conditions and healthy. I personally love my snakes but i dont go around forcing that onto other people.

I dont really like spiders that much, some are cool but some kinda freak me out. Ive been considering getting a tarantula though just bc i like to watch them. If i get a T and i hate it and never hold it will that make me a bad keeper? Not at all as long as i take care of it.

Another example is i dont reallly like rodents. But in the future when i hopefully get my own place and more snakes i plan to breed rats. I'll probably hate the rats and cleaning out their tubs and stuff. But ill be doing it for my snakes food so that justifies it for me. As long as i take care of the rats then i should be allowed to hate them as much as i want lol.

As long as the animals are kept clean, fed, and watered...Who cares? I for one do LOVE my snakes. If any of them became sick or died etc...I would genuinely feel sad.

I also agree that if they are not ready to breed...they simply will not go. Same goes for feedings. These are stubborn animals and have no problem telling us no.

As a really scientific person who also has a great love for animals, I need to agree with the opinion that you don't need to have love and passion for every snake to still be doing this right.

I have very little passion for my job, yet I come in every morning on time and perform my duties to the best of my abilities. I make sure everything I produce is quality and has been managed from start to finish with due care and consideration. I like to be able to stand behind my work with confidence.

I think the concern here is when someone takes a live animal as a business venture, and then does a half-fast, piss poor job. That's called an idiot for lack of a more forum appropriate description and the world is flooded with them. I don't see any reason to put up a specific fuss about idiots and lazies who also care for snakes.

General mistreatment of animals? I have a problem with this. It's DEFINITELY an issue that deserves judgement on a case by case basis, though.

You guys have made some great points and I think I will have to revise my earlier stance, I suppose snakes are a great animal to breed and keep if you don't have love for them yet still keep and breed for whatever reason.

Personally I wouldn't do it if I didn't but as long as you're snakes are healthy and you will tend to their needs fully and to the best of your ability even if it costs or inconveniences you then that's fine and you still get props because you're doing better than write a lot of people.

I'm in this because I do love the animals and I want to make some awesome combos. They're like Pokemon cards or an awesome puzzle....I'm fascinated by the challenge of coming up with mixes and what comes out. Its like crack to me.

In my rant I was predominately talking about the few idiots who take decent care of their snakes but at the same time are so much more concerned with the money than the animals health that they will breed a weak or too small normal female if they think they can eggs from her again even if it does risk her life unnecessarily, as she's "cheap and expendable," which is actual advice I've heard from a couple of people. "Well if you can get eggs from her again its worth it for what you can get for the babies." That to me is sick :(


So no, I don't care if you love them so long as you treat them with respect and take proper care of them.

If I seem wishy washy lol- I'm a true Libra: Present me with a valid point differing to my opinion and I'll usually agree, but if someone else presents a valid point on a totally opposing viewpoint I'll most likely agree with them TOO lol :rolleyes: I cant help it

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Comparing large scale snake breeders to a puppy mill is completely ridiculous. Puppy mills tend to have horrible conditions and many of their animals carry parasites and diseases. Since when do large scale breeders have issues such as this? I've been to very large breeding facilities and found all animals in excellent condition. Granted, outbreaks of mites, ticks and parasites may happen, but most breeders take care of the issue ASAP. Large scale "snake mill" owners I believe take better care of their animals than puppy mill owners do. So, IMO comparing the two is asinine.

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Originally Posted by dart

Comparing large scale snake breeders to a puppy mill is completely ridiculous. Puppy mills tend to have horrible conditions and many of their animals carry parasites and diseases. Since when do large scale breeders have issues such as this? I've been to very large breeding facilities and found all animals in excellent condition. Granted, outbreaks of mites, ticks and parasites may happen, but most breeders take care of the issue ASAP. Large scale "snake mill" owners I believe take better care of their animals than puppy mill owners do. So, IMO comparing the two is asinine.

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I think the OP's concern was anyone who considers breeding animals expendable for a quick buck. The rant wasn't pointed at large scale breeders in general, or even specifically, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

In my rant I was predominately talking about the few idiots who take decent care of their snakes but at the same time are so much more concerned with the money than the animals health that they will breed a weak or too small normal female if they think they can eggs from her again even if it does risk her life unnecessarily, as she's "cheap and expendable," which is actual advice I've heard from a couple of people. "Well if you can get eggs from her again its worth it for what you can get for the babies." That to me is sick :(

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yeah. People will try to pair for other reasons as well. Someone who just really wants eggs, a breeder who really needs his banana male to reproduce lol, or someone who really wants to prove a female out! This is just impatience. Again, it's upto the snake :P. I've seen posts of folks with "underweight" ball pythons become gravid because they house a pair together, and the tiny female only lays 3 eggs :weirdface. I don't really know the cold hard facts behind waiting til your animal is 1500 grams before attempting, but that's what the "how to breed" docs say, and if I want to be successful, I'll try to follow the book :P.

Honestly, it sounds like the old myth that people who care about money don't care about anything else.

If you're breeding snakes as a business....

A) There is NOTHING wrong with that.
B) If you didn't care about the snakes, why would you become a snake janitor as a career?
C) Just because you're looking forward to your female laying 9 eggs instead of 8 doesn't mean you don't care about her. Just the opposite.

A lot of the pride professional breeders have is in how well their snakes are doing--how healthy they are, how much they produce AS A RESULT of their health, and how awesome it is that they can make a lot of money producing gorgeous animals. It's all tied together, these are not separate things. Love for the animals, and enjoyment of making money with them go hand in hand for pros.

I get my females back on feed quickly whenever possible, because I want to see them recover quickly from laying, and I want them to go into the next breeding season in vibrant good health, sleek, and with hefty body weight and great muscle tone. I want them to look like pinup snakes, because that shows that they're up to the challenge of breeding. If they aren't, then they will need a year off--not only do I lose money, but if they were thriving, they wouldn't NEED a year off, so needing a year off is a bad thing.

As has been pointed out, ball pythons breed when they feel they are ready. If they're in superb health going into a breeding season, why shouldn't they breed? There's not only no evidence to suggest this is bad for them, but I'll go out on a limb and say that animals that do this are probably prime examples of health and good breeding--they recover from the rigors of breeding quickly, and remain in good health. Snakes that don't recover quickly and take a year off? Maybe they're not so healthy. Perhaps this means they won't live as long, that they'll be more susceptible to illness, that they aren't as strong.

As breeders, we want to produce animals that eat voraciously, put on weight quickly when food is available, stay healthy, and produce lots of great offspring--those are the same traits that make for great pets, too.

The more food you can put into a female before the breeding season, the better chance she'll produce a big, healthy clutch, and it will do her no harm. We want the females to be in the best health possible before breeding, so of course we would brag about stuffing them with food right away.

I had to put one of my girls on a diet one year, because she ate so much over the summer, she got fat, lol. She was a 13 egg clutcher, too.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Well 'darlin' if you know what I'm talking about, about which I have serious doubts, then you know doubt know what I have to say to your well placed quip.

Once you get your head out maybe you should do a panty check. I think yours may be wadding up.

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Lol. Yes there are different paradigms in which people hold. Everyone is entitle to their own opinions. I think that your interpretation of my original post is a little skewed, if you go back and re-read it, maybe with some assistance, you can see that I was not forcing my opinions on anyone. However it is a fact that people who love and know what they are doing do better at the things they do than others. What is right and what is wrong is open to interpretation. Also, I dont believe that the desire for profit in this industry is wrong as long as the snakes are cared for properly, if thats whats getting "your" panties in a bunch. Take care Susan.:banana:

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

Lol. Yes there are different paradigms in which people hold. Everyone is entitle to their own opinions. I think that your interpretation of my original post is a little skewed, if you go back and re-read it, maybe with some assistance, you can see that I was not forcing my opinions on anyone. However it is a fact that people who love and know what they are doing do better at the things they do than people who do it for less motivating reasons. What is right and what is wrong is open to interpretation. Also, I dont believe that the desire for profit in this industry is wrong, if thats whats getting "your" panties in a bunch. Take care Susan.:banana:

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Actually, you are. You are telling someone what their motivation "should" be to breed. By telling someone what should or shouldn't be their reasoning for their actions, you are forcing your opinions onto them.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

Lol. Yes there are different paradigms in which people hold. Everyone is entitle to their own opinions. I think that your interpretation of my original post is a little skewed, if you go back and re-read it, maybe with some assistance, you can see that I was not forcing my opinions on anyone. However it is a fact that people who love and know what they are doing do better at the things they do than others. What is right and what is wrong is open to interpretation. Also, I dont believe that the desire for profit in this industry is wrong as long as the snakes are cared for properly, if thats whats getting "your" panties in a bunch. Take care Susan.:banana:

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You are relatively new here, so a word of advice... Don't poke the bear. He probably has more years of experience than you've been alive. He also has the tenacity of a pit bull when it comes to verbal sparring and matching wits. And I wouldn't take him any other way. :-D

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You are relatively new here, so a word of advice... Don't poke the bear. He probably has more years of experience than you've been alive. He also has the tenacity of a pit bull when it comes to verbal sparring and matching wits. And I wouldn't take him any other way. :-D

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Lol, I like his style and I have no doubts on his experience. Just having a little fun at this point plus I agree with and understand 100% what he is saying but I feel that my first post was misinterpreted. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by dart

Actually, you are. You are telling someone what their motivation "should" be to breed. By telling someone what should or shouldn't be their reasoning for their actions, you are forcing your opinions onto them.

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not really, people have many motivations for many things, all I said was that people who have strong motivators and a passion for what they do are generally better at what they do than people without those factors. You cant force opinions on people either, I can give mine, they can either accept them or disregard them. Also my original post is being misinterpreted completely. Stop focusing so much on the first sentence of that post, that is just my opinion (and I can have it, doesnt mean Im looking down on others with different ones), and read the last half.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You are relatively new here, so a word of advice... Don't poke the bear. He probably has more years of experience than you've been alive. He also has the tenacity of a pit bull when it comes to verbal sparring and matching wits. And I wouldn't take him any other way. :-D

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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LOL! My thoughts exactly! Wes has a way of verbaly dismantling you, and he sounds like a poet while doing it! :rolleyes:

I should also point out that the term "mill" in MY mind is a negative nomeclature that illicits negative images. When I think of "mills" I think of breeders with snakes in deplorable conditions, underweight, undercared for, and bred despite their condition just for the thought of $$. I have no problem with large breeding operations or their motivations. Just to reiterate, I did express my motivations, used strong words, and concrete points of views in my original post. In retrospect I should have chosen my words more wisely. Hope that clears up my opinion of this subject. I thought this thread was about the negative "mills" not about my opinions. Just saying.:confused:

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Originally Posted by DemmBalls

LOL! My thoughts exactly! Wes has a way of verbaly dismantling you, and he sounds like a poet while doing it! :rolleyes:

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Idk, I see them trading blows pretty evenly to this point.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Idk, I see them trading blows pretty evenly to this point.

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Wes hasn't even warmed up yet. ;-)

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You are relatively new here, so a word of advice... Don't poke the bear. He probably has more years of experience than you've been alive. He also has the tenacity of a pit bull when it comes to verbal sparring and matching wits. And I wouldn't take him any other way. :-D

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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:8::rofl:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Wes hasn't even warmed up yet. ;-)

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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:popcorn:

Puppy mill eh? Puppy mills aren't about intentions. They are about shoddy care for the dogs. In a puppy mill, dogs are kept in sub sub sub par conditions and exist solely to breed.

I have yet to see anything similar in the Ball Python world. Ball Pythons kept in sub sub sub par conditions simply won't breed. In fact, they'll probably just die.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Ball Pythons kept in sub sub sub par conditions simply won't breed. In fact, they'll probably just die.

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Exactly! A BP kept in improper conditions will simply quit feeding and never become breedable. You get out of your BP's what you put into them...for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Idk, I see them trading blows pretty evenly to this point.

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Go look at some of Wes' posts and writings in the past. I love reading what he has to say...It's almost poetic. Even when he is ripping someone.

*Grabs popcorn* VERBAL BATTLE!!!!!


Yea I agree that the term "mill" may have not been quite the right choice of words, I simply couldn't think of a better one. I suppose I should have titled it "Negligent Breeders"

I was most definitely not talking about any of the big breeders, they all take great care of their snakes from everything I have read/ seen, more about the backyard breeder-type of keepers (before anyone gets mad I'm not saying anything about the at-home-hobby-breeders, of which I am one.) No, I have seen quite a few snakes that were rescued from situations where the person thought they would be a breeder but then failed to keep up with all but the most basic maintenance so that the snakes were not kept in healthy conditions. The saddest part to me is that snakes not being vocal means they are a little more easily forgotten by a lazy owner than a dog who try to get your attention.

When I had written the post I had not really taken into account these snakes stubbornness, which in this case I think is a good thing :)

If your snakes are plenty healthy enough to breed every year then that's great as long as you use good judgement, which I think mostly everyone on here would do.


LOL @ pinup snakes...awesome mental image.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

So I read a post in a thread somewhere that reminded me of an aspect of this hobby that bothers me quite a bit and not wanting to hijack that thread, I figured I would rant about it in my own darned thread :)

This would be the snake equivalent to puppy mills. People who see these animals as money-making breeding machines and little else. I have heard from more than one person (not necessarily on here) that their goal every year is to basically start power feeding their females the second they've laid so that they can lay even more next year; lather, rinse, repeat. I guess I understand that money is a strong motivator and BP's are a way to make money buuuuuut they are LIVING, FEELING, ANIMALS!!!

The idea of making them breed year after year after year just so you don't loose out on any money is repulsive to me. That's gotta be detrimental in some way. Every other year okay if they are healthy and well kept, and back to back sometimes if they really plump back up quickly and seem ready to go again. But please don't breed them to death. I look at my snakes and thinking of any of them being treated that way makes my heart feel sick. It almost makes me not want to breed so I can be sure I won't be selling any snakes that may be treated in this manner. That's not even touching on the people who hear they can "make lots of money breeding ball pythons" and get them but don't even bother to learn how to properly take care of them or are just too frugal to spend the money on proper basic husbandry tools or veterinary care.


Okay... well, I think I feel better. I just get sad thinking of how a lot of people treat animals: like they're expendable or just a product:(.

And to all of you who actually care about your snakes and really try to treat them the best you can and give them a good life: thank you, you're awesome!!!!:)

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You name no names.

You site no sources.

You are unknown.

I'm pretty good at reading and I'm reading you telling me that your way is the good way and anyone doing anything for money is bad. Sort of. You do manage to hedge just enough to cover your backside if someone, as is now the case, calls you out on your insistence of your correctness in spite of the fact that you have ... how much experience?

Who are these people you have heard these terrible things from? Are they, like you, relatively new, inexperienced and prone to expressing poorly formed thoughts in words not quite adequate to convey what they, as you, thought they meant to say?

It's not so much waffling, though that is exactly what it is, but saying one thing yesterday and another today, when with a bit of thought about any point of view other than your own you could have avoided the hoof-in-mouth outbreak you're obviously suffering from.

Yes, yes, I realize you were just ranting.

But seriously, are you going to use that as an excuse for your inability to express what you REALLY meant, now that you've changed your mind, seen the error of your ways, decided that maybe you don't know everything, even though you obviously thought you did, until now? Because if you are, I'll clue you in on a little something that I've found to be pretty much true all over, it's not MY problem. You wanna be understooded? Speak more gooder.

Think twice, post once. You who carpent should recognize the origin of that old but true adage.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

*Grabs popcorn* VERBAL BATTLE!!!!!

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After reading the OP and this post, I have realized that you seem to be posting for attention. I agree with the post just above this one. Think twice and post once. :colbert:

Well, I guess because I don't handle my ball pythons other for cleaning, moving males in with females, removing females from tubs after laying, etc., etc., and I don't technically "love" my snakes, and because I did start out owning ball pythons to breed, means what again? I'm a "negligent breeder"?
All of my snakes are very well taken care of, and if anything ( knock on wood ) happens to them they get the care they need. But because I don't see my ball pythons in the same light as you yours, means I'm running a "snake mill"?

:colbert: ridiculousness

My opinion is "bull spit".

You don't mean big breeders or hobby breeders, just 'backyard breeders', which suddenly doesn't apply to anyone mentioned.

They "make" the snakes breed. False. You can not make a female breed.

It's wrong to breed every year. False. I know a few breeders who have females 20 years old that have bred every year.

It's wrong to breed for money. False. There is nothing wrong in breeding snakes to sell and make a profit on.

You seem angry over something, but you're not saying anything that's wrong... just slinging terms used by animal rights extremists to purposely be vague. "Puppy mill" and "backyard breeder" have no definition, as you've demonstrated by deliberately saying it doesn't apply to ANYONE that people have mentioned.

What is a mill? How many animals does it take before it's a BP mill? If they are starving the females, they don't breed. If they introduce males to a female who isn't ready to breed, generally they don't breed. If they have more than 5 animals are they a mill? How about ten? 200? What if they have 500 but they're all well cared for AND they breed females every year?

I suggest you look further into what you're ranting about because frankly I think you're going on some vague idea in your head, put there by people who have a personal agenda. It's okay to say "I didn't think this through" or "I need to consider the reality of ball python breeders more so I can decide what I think."

I fully admit, I have NOT made a profit overall on my animals. I fully admit I thought I would make a profit on my breeding plans. But I didn't start breeding "only" to make money. I started because I wanted to MAKE one of the cool animals I saw but couldn't afford. I even printed a photo of one of the first albino/pied BP to put on the wall to encourage me when I was cleaning bins and washing water bowls. I don't consider myself to be a bad person for wanting to make a little cash to continue in the hobby while making awesome snakes too.

Didn't read post #25. That's what I was talking about.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I started because I wanted to MAKE one of the cool animals I saw but couldn't afford. I even printed a photo of one of the first albino/pied BP to put on the wall to encourage me when I was cleaning bins and washing water bowls.

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I thought I was the only one :P

:( Jeez....I wasn't trying to upset anyone...or post for attention, I didn't mean for this to blow up the way it did. I was just venting, I'm sorry if I made anyone mad.... I had also just been talking to a friend with a rescue snake, who is now getting much better but was in BAD shape from the previous owner. Many of the people I have heard such things from were in person so I cannot give sources.

To further add: I see no problem with making money from breeding, just that some people *not all by far* seem to care more about the money than the health of the animal they are breeding to acquire it, this is not just a snake thing, it's pretty much all animals.

So take this as an honest apology, I will "Think twice, post once" next time.

The "verbal battle" post was about all the comments on how eloquent Wes is with his tearing people apart and Susan keeping pace.

I'm sorry guys... now I feel crummy and sad