Ball python "mills" *rant* (Not trying to offend anyone)

[Domepiece]

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals. I dont see alot of what you are talking about as far as "mill" type of behavior as you see it. Im sure their are many people that do this for the wrong reasons but I dont think its common practice among people who actually appreciate these animals (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who just see $ signs). Also in the wild these animals as well as almost every other species on the planet breed annually so I dont see an issue with that as long as they are recovered and healthy to do so. Wonderful topic but Im hoping it only applies to a rare few individuals.

[wilomn]

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals.

Nonsense.

That may be all well and good for yo, but don't you think it rather narrow minded of you to force your point of view on everyone else?

Personally, I don't love my snakes. I don't think I ever have. I like em and I'm quite fond of a few, but love isn't even close.

From what you, and some others have said, perhaps not meaning to, I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. Frankly I laugh out loud at your arrogance.

So many forget, when they get up on that soap box, that what they're espousing is an OPINION. Opinions are points of view. Points of view are a way of seeing something. A way of seeing something is generally not found existing alone. There is almost always more than one, often many more than one, way of seeing the same information and arriving at differing conclusions with none being more valid or valuable, nor enforceable for that matter, than any other.

If someone wants to breed ten thousand normals a year, so long as the animals are properly kept, what business is it of anyone else's?

I kinda get tired of folks who think they're 'better than' simply because of a point of view, an opinion, of no more inherent validity than ANY OTHER opinion out there.

[Coleslaw007]

While I see very few people here who feel this way, they are out there.

I do know where you are coming from, it sickens me to hear people say they want their females back on food as soon as possible so they'll be able to lay an even bigger clutch and make them more money. That to me is wrong.

For me, I want my females back eating because I hate the thought of her going 6 or 7 months without eating. Pregnancy is tough, and birth even harder. I want her to be able to rest and recover her strength and get back in top condition, even if it takes two years for her to reach that point. When I see how pitifully thin and drained my girls are after laying, I just want them to feel better soon. And if I don't think she's ready to breed again in 6 months or so when the season starts, then she's getting a break until I think she is.

And I refuse to feed her extra heavy just to get her back to some magic number that says she can be bred again. Numbers mean diddly squat. She needs to be nice and round and muscular again, so that I think she is capable of having more eggs.

And I don't have a problem breeding my girls two years in a row if I feel they are in good enough condition. I learned early on that if she doesn't think she's ready for more eggs, you aren't going to get any, no matter what your numbers tell you. But I draw the line at two. Even if she thinks she's ready again, I reserve the right to tell her no, wait until next year.

Gale

Sorry for the bad word!

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals. I dont see alot of what you are talking about as far as "mill" type of behavior as you see it. Im sure their are many people that do this for the wrong reasons but I dont think its common practice among people who actually appreciate these animals (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who just see $ signs). Also in the wild these animals as well as almost every other species on the planet breed annually so I dont see an issue with that as long as they are recovered and healthy to do so. Wonderful topic but Im hoping it only applies to a rare few individuals.

Same here, Gale. Well, I haven't had babies yet but I will want my girls healthy again asap.

Its okay, Domenge

I agree with everyone and I'm so glad that people on this forum don't just jump down people's throats if they disagree with a post, awesome guys! I had just read a post by someone on another site or maybe here..... *don't want to point fingers* talking about how they start power feeding the second their snake has laid because if they don't bulk her up quickly do she'll lay more next season they'll lose out on thousands. The way they just kept mentioning the money aspect, it really seemed like the only real concern. I think its awesome to make money from breeding, even better if you actually come out on top -but not if that's all you care about. They may have honestly just chose bad wording and that's not really their feelings, but it read that way to me and a friend I showed the post to.

I also agree that breeding a couple years in a row is fine, maybe more but you need to really use judgment and care about their welfare and I have heard (not often) people sound like they really just care about pumping out expensive babies. A good example of this, I told I guy I know who runs a local reptile store that I had a female who had fasted the last 6 months despite trying EVERYTHING since I got her in November and had gone from 1500 grams to 1300. His answer was that she could be wild caught and going to starve herself to death and to start locking her up now so that at least I can get some babies out of her. This really upset me and seemed like the wrong attitude. I did half take his advice, I had been thinking that locking her with a male might get her eating and it WORKED! She was with Fire Lord Ozai for a week and he *Barry White voice* showed her riiight and now she eats every week

Yea, I agree that most people who want to "get rich" from breeding wind up getting tired of it, but it doesn't stop a lot of idiots from buying some and mistreating them until they give up. A friend of mine has a normal female who was in horrible shape when she got her and the guy who originally had her got her because he thought he could make tons of money off the babies but never really bothered to care for her. He thought she would just do it all herself and he could profit, from what I could tell. After a while he realized it wasn't happening and dumped the snakes.

I'm really hoping its not super common, its just sad how some people see animals as just another object and value money so much higher than the life or comfort of a living thing. Last year when Cthulhu, our then baby corn and first snake escaped and got into our pet rat's cage and got BADLY attacked in the middle of the night and I was looking for any help anywhere, calling vets, looking online, ECT. I saw one similar post on a website somewhere where a corn was badly injured and the person was asking advice on what to do. The first answer was (paraphrasing): "corn snakes are very inexpensive snakes so I would just let it die rather than waste money on a vet. Its just not worth spending more on the vet bill than you did on the snake."

At the time I really thought Cthulhu was going to die and reading that just made me bawl harder. It made me want to find them and scream at them, "DON'T OWN AN ANIMAL IF YOU WON'T/ CAN'T TAKE CARE OF IT, EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!!!!" I feel that this is the agreement you make when you chose to own a life.


I really just wish everyone could just only have animals if they really care about the animals. Almost everyone on here shows that they truly care about their snakes and I applaud it

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[Coleslaw007]

Nonsense.

That may be all well and good for yo, but don't you think it rather narrow minded of you to force your point of view on everyone else?

Personally, I don't love my snakes. I don't think I ever have. I like em and I'm quite fond of a few, but love isn't even close.

From what you, and some others have said, perhaps not meaning to, I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. Frankly I laugh out loud at your arrogance.

So many forget, when they get up on that soap box, that what they're espousing is an OPINION. Opinions are points of view. Points of view are a way of seeing something. A way of seeing something is generally not found existing alone. There is almost always more than one, often many more than one, way of seeing the same information and arriving at differing conclusions with none being more valid or valuable, nor enforceable for that matter, than any other.

If someone wants to breed ten thousand normals a year, so long as the animals are properly kept, what business is it of anyone else's?

I kinda get tired of folks who think they're 'better than' simply because of a point of view, an opinion, of no more inherent validity than ANY OTHER opinion out there.

I never tried to claim to be better than anyone and I am merely voicing my own opinion, as you have stated. Not trying to force an opinion but I'm assuming you at least ensure that your snakes are well cared for. I personally wouldn't breed animals that I didn't care about, but that's just me. I do hope that if one of your snakes got sick you would treat it rather than just dump it in lieu of spending money on it.

Oh and I meant to add: Thanks for reminding me about the stubbornness of BP's, guys. Lol, I hadn't thought about the inability to make them do anything they don't want to.

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[Domepiece]

Nonsense.

That may be all well and good for yo, but don't you think it rather narrow minded of you to force your point of view on everyone else?

Personally, I don't love my snakes. I don't think I ever have. I like em and I'm quite fond of a few, but love isn't even close.

From what you, and some others have said, perhaps not meaning to, I'm doing this for all the wrong reasons. Frankly I laugh out loud at your arrogance.

So many forget, when they get up on that soap box, that what they're espousing is an OPINION. Opinions are points of view. Points of view are a way of seeing something. A way of seeing something is generally not found existing alone. There is almost always more than one, often many more than one, way of seeing the same information and arriving at differing conclusions with none being more valid or valuable, nor enforceable for that matter, than any other.

If someone wants to breed ten thousand normals a year, so long as the animals are properly kept, what business is it of anyone else's?

I kinda get tired of folks who think they're 'better than' simply because of a point of view, an opinion, of no more inherent validity than ANY OTHER opinion out there.

Gee, Im sorry, did I offend you? Let me rephrase that so you can understand. In order for someone to do something well and enjoy doing it, maybe first they should have a passion(love) for it. IDK, just makes sense to me. Dont lecture me cupcake, I know what your talking about. Narrow minded, yeah, Im the one.LOL.

[Coleslaw007]

The motivation to breed should be out of a love for these animals and their extraordinary potential to create beautiful animals. I dont see alot of what you are talking about as far as "mill" type of behavior as you see it. Im sure their are many people that do this for the wrong reasons but I dont think its common practice among people who actually appreciate these animals (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who just see $ signs). Also in the wild these animals as well as almost every other species on the planet breed annually so I dont see an issue with that as long as they are recovered and healthy to do so. Wonderful topic but Im hoping it only applies to a rare few individuals.

I have always figured that most animals in the wild had an annual breeding cycle but wouldn't actually breed every year due to the hardships of the wild....although I could be wrong and of course I suppose in captivity there are no hardships or scarcity of food....still it just feels to me like they should be given breaks at least occasionally or it will be harmful long-term

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[wilomn]

Gee, Im sorry, did I offend you? Let me rephrase that so you can understand. In order for someone to do something well and enjoy doing it, maybe first they should have a passion(love) for it. IDK, just makes sense to me. Dont lecture me cupcake, I know what your talking about. Narrow minded, yeah, Im the one.LOL.

Well 'darlin' if you know what I'm talking about, about which I have serious doubts, then you know doubt know what I have to say to your well placed quip.

Once you get your head out maybe you should do a panty check. I think yours may be wadding up.

[Emily Hubbard]

I personally don't currently have an interest in breeding for several reasons. One is the work involved, but honestly my biggest reason is not knowing exactly what type of person is getting my potential hatchlings. To make any money, you can't exactly background check your buyers or give them a husbandry quiz before delivery. It would kill me to just hand the babies I bred over to strangers who could potentially be the type of keepers we all rant about on the "new rescue" threads. So from that standpoint, I can see how it HAS To be a least somewhat about the money or you never sell a hatchling. Personally, it would kill me.

I really just enjoy caring from my snake and making sure she has a happy, comfortable home with nice soft substrate and a warm place to hide. Everyone finds their passion in a different place in this hobby. For some it is the joy of breeding, and that's fine. For me, it is creating an environment for my little snake to thrive. I absolutely love animal husbandry. I have the most fun reassembling my viv after I clean it and watching my snake explore it when I put her back. I have no desire to breed her, I just want her to feel at home.

[Emily Hubbard]

"DON'T OWN AN ANIMAL IF YOU WON'T/ CAN'T TAKE CARE OF IT, EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!!!!" I feel that this is the agreement you make when you chose to own a life.
2

Oh my gosh, I agree with this so much. How much your car is worth should dictate what you spend on maintenance, but what you spend on an animal should NEVER dictate how much you spend to care for it. When you take a living thing into your care, it is your responsibility to assure it never suffers if you have the power to help it.

[seeya205]

I personally don't currently have an interest in breeding for several reasons. One is the work involved, but honestly my biggest reason is not knowing exactly what type of person is getting my potential hatchlings. To make any money, you can't exactly background check your buyers or give them a husbandry quiz before delivery. It would kill me to just hand the babies I bred over to strangers who could potentially be the type of keepers we all rant about on the "new rescue" threads. So from that standpoint, I can see how it HAS To be a least somewhat about the money or you never sell a hatchling. Personally, it would kill me.

I really just enjoy caring from my snake and making sure she has a happy, comfortable home with nice soft substrate and a warm place to hide. Everyone finds their passion in a different place in this hobby. For some it is the joy of breeding, and that's fine. For me, it is creating an environment for my little snake to thrive. I absolutely love animal husbandry. I have the most fun reassembling my viv after I clean it and watching my snake explore it when I put her back. I have no desire to breed her, I just want her to feel at home.

I personally ask every buyer if they know how to care for them and I sell every snake with a care sheet so there is no excuse for them not to properly treat them well. I think it is part of our job as owners/breeders to educate!