Spider wobble tells and feeding in separate container?

I hope this hasn't been asked a million times- I did somewhat search the subject.

I'm getting a hatchling spider ball python in the fall from an up and coming herp vet student breeder from my university. For the price range, I absolutely love the spider morph. I think I'm getting a really REALLY great deal on him. (and I'm not planning on breeding him)

Anyhow, I was just reading up on the "spider wobble"
I trust my breeder, but I was curious about the tells for wobble in very young snakes.
And really, the condition doesn't put me off. I don't think I'd mind owning a guy with a little bit of wobble.

And is it less stressful for a ball (especially wobblers) to be fed in his viv or in a separate container? Or does it vary from snake to snake?

Thanks for your replies!
-Clair

Something my Dad always told me about my snakes as a kid thats always kinda stuck is that you dont want to feed a snake in its everyday enclosure. If you feed in the enclosure or tub your snake may start to associate you opening the enclosure with feeding time, and you may get bit or struck at.

That has always been in the back of my mind, so i always feed in a seperate tub. However, i know of and have even seen a lot of people who feed in the enclosure/tub.

I rarely if ever feed in a separate container, and do not have issues with it. My snakes do not try to eat me every time I open a tub.

As far as the wobble, it can be apparent from the start, develop over time, or never really be an issue.

cage aggression is a myth... and is filled with flawed logic. The last thing you want to do when feeding a snake is pick it up and move it to/from a separate container before feeding...Your chances of getting bit goes through the roof when moving a snake directly after feeding it.

If you think that a snake can't tell the difference between you and a rodent then you aren't giving them enough credit...

Snakes use multiple senses to identify potential prey.

They use their heat pits, their jacobson's organ (smell) and eye sight to ID prey.

So unless you have the same thermal signature, smell like a rodent, and look/ are the same size as a rodent a snake isn't going to think that you are food.

Every major breeder and most of the members on this site including me feed all of their snakes in their enclosures every time without any negative effects.

I'm not saying that you will never get bit... far from it, but when you do it won't be because your snake thinks that you are food.

It is far less stressful for the snake to be fed in it's cage.


IN most cases Spider wobble is very minor and only shows up when the snake is excited/scared/etc. you will notice a slight loss of motor control in the upper neck/head that makes the BP "wobble" In some rare extreme cases they do something called corkscrewing.. this is basically uncontrollable flailing. Once again, this is very rare and not something to be overly worked about. even most of the spiders that corkscrew will still live long happy lives, but in a very small percentage they cannot et very well and do not thrive. All spiders have wobble, and the degree that it presents itself can change throughout the snakes life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jinx667

I rarely if ever feed in a separate container, and do not have issues with it. My snakes do not try to eat me every time I open a tub.

As far as the wobble, it can be apparent from the start, develop over time, or never really be an issue.

---

x2. Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

Separate enclosures? I agree with Serpent, that's a myth. In fact, I was showing one of my friends my snakes on Saturday, and she said the people at the pet store gave her the advice that your father told you. I showed her my calico who had just eaten an hour or 2 earlier, and I put my hand in the enclosure, tapped her lightly on the head, and she just sniffed my finger. No feeding response at all. She HAS eaten 2 rodents in one feeding before, but she's typically sweet.

For your wobble issue, whenever I asked a vendor at the expo how the wobble of a spider morph is, they always say "I haven't noticed any." What I do to bring it out is to first, unball them, try to stretch out their bodies as if you're trying to look at their sides, then hold them by the tail. The ball pythons I had were able to remain horizontal with one hand supporting them. My killerbee was trying to head back onto my hand, but I can see she couldn't move forward perfectly straight.

I still bought her cuz she was smokin :D. She'll still corkscrew when I hold a rodent over her head, but she still eats like a boss... I wouldn't let the wobble discourage you from getting the snake :D. Spiders are, IMO, essential to a collection :gj:.

Thanks everybody!

I consistently feed my snakes in a separate container however my Spider is one of the two I have that does better in her container, the other is a normal.

I don't feed outside the container because I'm worried about aggression or them food aggressive. I feed in a separate container for my own peace of mind. I keep my snakes, except for those in QT, on aspen or Cyprus. I would be greatly upset if a piece of ingested substrate resulted in impaction or death. Live mice tend to chew, hide, or go to the bathroom while being pursued. I've even had two f/t rats have their inners squeezed out by one of the snakes squeezing too hard. Had that been in his tub, would have been a bigger mess to deal with. Keeping everything separate makes me feel like things are cleaner. If I was to clean their tubs out every time they ate I would be disturbing them far more. (*disclaimer* I don't see anything wrong with feeding in the tub for those who do and do not think separate is better in general, just better for me.) Most of my snakes have no issues feeding outside of their tubs however the spider does. I tried to feed her in a separate container but she became to stressed out to eat.

I think that if you want to feed in a separate container I say try it. It won't hurt the snake and if the snake has issues eating outside, try inside his tub. I don't think either way is right or wrong, it's all basically preference. It takes me about two hours to feed everyone (twelve snakes) between keeping the water hot and waiting for them to swallow their meal before putting them away and moving to the next one.

Good luck

I would be greatly upset if a piece of ingested substrate resulted in impaction or death.
I use paper towels, but your concern is legit.

I've even had two f/t rats have their inners squeezed out by one of the snakes squeezing too hard. Had that been in his tub, would have been a bigger mess to deal with.
This happens if you leave the rodent in the water for too long, or if the water is too hot. It will soften the skin of the rodent, particularly at the belly, and when the snake squeezes the rodent, it's stinky and messy insides come out... Learned from experience :D...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

I've even had two f/t rats have their inners squeezed out by one of the snakes squeezing too hard. Had that been in his tub, would have been a bigger mess to deal with.
This happens if you leave the rodent in the water for too long, or if the water is too hot. It will soften the skin of the rodent, particularly at the belly, and when the snake squeezes the rodent, it's stinky and messy insides come out... Learned from experience :D...

---

My albino will only eat the f/t if it is extremely hot. He is usually the one this happens to. I have also heard it happens if when shipped the rat is thawed slightly and then refrozen. But no idea if that is true or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

cage aggression is a myth... and is filled with flawed logic. The last thing you want to do when feeding a snake is pick it up and move it to/from a separate container before feeding...Your chances of getting bit goes through the roof when moving a snake directly after feeding it.

If you think that a snake can't tell the difference between you and a rodent then you aren't giving them enough credit...

Snakes use multiple senses to identify potential prey.

They use their heat pits, their jacobson's organ (smell) and eye sight to ID prey.

So unless you have the same thermal signature, smell like a rodent, and look/ are the same size as a rodent a snake isn't going to think that you are food.

Every major breeder and most of the members on this site including me feed all of their snakes in their enclosures every time without any negative effects.

I'm not saying that you will never get bit... far from it, but when you do it won't be because your snake thinks that you are food.

It is far less stressful for the snake to be fed in it's cage.


IN most cases Spider wobble is very minor and only shows up when the snake is excited/scared/etc. you will notice a slight loss of motor control in the upper neck/head that makes the BP "wobble" In some rare extreme cases they do something called corkscrewing.. this is basically uncontrollable flailing. Once again, this is very rare and not something to be overly worked about. even most of the spiders that corkscrew will still live long happy lives, but in a very small percentage they cannot et very well and do not thrive. All spiders have wobble, and the degree that it presents itself can change throughout the snakes life.

---

A lot of great points here!

The one I have highlighted in bold I have witnessed first had. I used to feed my snakes in separate tubs and witnessed their feeding response quadruple when being fed in their enclosure, ie not being moved etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

I would be greatly upset if a piece of ingested substrate resulted in impaction or death.
I use paper towels, but your concern is legit.

---

We have bred and raised literally tens of thousands of snakes on a variety of particulate substrates- aspen, cypress, coir, sani-chips, and I have seen them get mouthfuls of it going after rodents (or during sheds) on occasion.

What I have never seen is an impaction issue from substrate.

Cage aggression from feeding inside the enclosure is a complete and utter myth. Period. Dot. End of the book. However...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christopher De Leon

Something my Dad always told me about my snakes as a kid thats always kinda stuck is that you dont want to feed a snake in its everyday enclosure.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by M&H

I feed in a separate container for my own peace of mind.

---

If feeding in a separate enclosure helps you sleep better at night, knock yourself out. It's not what I would consider an optimal husbandry method, but it is a method.

Short and simple, no need to feed out of the enclosure. The spider wobble is not a defect, it's a trait and a great one if you ask me. It adds personality.

All spiders have wobble it is what it is. Sometimes it gets worse sometimes better.

Some of my snakes will feed in a separate container some it is very unlikely and a pair there is no way on earth they would. Basically they would starve if I tried. This is the best reason why to feed in a separate enclosure. I have witnessed only one single problem with substrate ingestion. It literally ran in to my vet during my appointment. Paper towels and an adult snake (the snake died). I have seen cyprus, aspen and coco ingestion all eaten with no issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slim

Cage aggression from feeding inside the enclosure is a complete and utter myth. Period. Dot. End of the book. However...






If feeding in a separate enclosure helps you sleep better at night, knock yourself out. It's not what I would consider an optimal husbandry method, but it is a method.

---

Yes, I suppose i sleep just fine. Lol. Its what i grew up with and something thats always worked for me personally and my snakes as well(including my spider, hehe). Im not sure i would consider it a less than optimal husbandry technique though...however, there have been some valid points made as to why some of you dont feed in seperate enclosures. But to each his own.:D We all know BPs can be picky or stubborn eaters regarless of feeding method.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

We have bred and raised literally tens of thousands of snakes on a variety of particulate substrates- aspen, cypress, coir, sani-chips, and I have seen them get mouthfuls of it going after rodents (or during sheds) on occasion.

What I have never seen is an impaction issue from substrate.

---

Oh I'm not referring to impaction. I used cypress mulch and aspen before, and sometimes the aspen would get stuck in the mouth while trying to get the rodent in it's mouth, and it would need to readjust.. This made watching my snake eat take longer lol. It's partially why I switched to paper towels.

As far as impaction goes, a snake in the wild probably ingests a bunch of things lying on the ground. That's not my concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by clairlevee

I hope this hasn't been asked a million times- I did somewhat search the subject.


Anyhow, I was just reading up on the "spider wobble"
I trust my breeder, but I was curious about the tells for wobble in very young snakes.
And really, the condition doesn't put me off. I don't think I'd mind owning a guy with a little bit of wobble.

---

It is a bit of a dead horse, but it's one of our favorite ones to beat around here :rolleyes:

I will add that some spiders (like my adult female) exhibit virtually no "wobble" or other neurologic signs as babies and even subadults, but can experience an acute worsening of the condition as an adult. So, even if your baby seems fine and barely acts different from any other BP, be prepared that he may become worse in the future. (He may not -- but it is possible.)

One thing I'll add. If substrate ingestion worries you, but you are nervous about moving the snake to feed, put down a small piece of poster board and offer the food over that. It minimizes the chance of substrate in the mouth.

I did that for the longest time, and for just that reason.

Gale

Fantastic answers, I'm picking up a lot (Even besides the answers to my questions :P)
Thanks again