Wobble in snakes produced by Spider combos?

Just curious about this as I watch the desert situation unfolding. It has been said that any female desert or combo is likely sterile. Whether accurate or not this seems to be the growing consensus.

This got me to thinking, can a Spider combo such as a Spider Mojave pass the wobble in any visual mojaves that are produced or do the genes remain completely seperate within the sire or dam?

Has anybody experienced a wobble in other visual morphs from a Spider parent?

It's 'attached' to the spider gene. Since the spider gene is dominant, if it exists then the gene will be visually represented. No visual -> no gene -> no wobble.

Thanks. That is what I had hoped but just wasn't sure if anyone knew otherwise.

I like the looks of a Spider and Bees but I have seen videos that make me wonder if I have the temperment for dealig with a snake that I know to be flawed (so to speak)and whos symptoms can be disturbing to me dependin on the severity.

I've also witnessed the wobble gene attached to genetic stripes. It only expresses itself in the visual form. Hets don't appear to have a wobble.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I've also witnessed the wobble gene attached to genetic stripes. It only expresses itself in the visual form. Hets don't appear to have a wobble.

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Interesting ..! This is the first I've heard anyone say they have seen it in G-stripes. Has anyone else observed this? (I don't doubt you Gloryhound; just very curious if G-stripes should be added to the "wobbler" list ...)

To the OP, I did produce a neuro super pastel from a bee x pastel breeding. He had a very mild head tilt, and would occasionally spin backward if placed in a new cage, but would snap out of it if disturbed -- just like his bumblebee sire. However, it may have been due to incubation as I did experience temp spikes.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

Thanks. That is what I had hoped but just wasn't sure if anyone knew otherwise.

I like the looks of a Spider and Bees but I have seen videos that make me wonder if I have the temperment for dealig with a snake that I know to be flawed (so to speak)and whos symptoms can be disturbing to me dependin on the severity.

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I own a spider, the wobble is in my opinion greatly overstated. Almost all spiders will never have issues (wobble is there, but very minor) it's just that you don't hear about all the spiders that are ok, you only hear about the ones that corkscrew...

I have a spider male and a killerbee who both wobble. It's noticeable. I don't see them wobble unless they're hungry though... I'll sometimes see my spider corkscrew at the front of the tub the day before feeding day :confused:..

My killerbee only wobbles when there's food in front of her.. Otherwise she'll sit there or explore her little tub with no wobble.. I feel like they do it to tease us T.T...

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I have a spider male and a killerbee who both wobble. It's noticeable. I don't see them wobble unless they're hungry though... I'll sometimes see my spider corkscrew at the front of the tub the day before feeding day :confused:..

My killerbee only wobbles when there's food in front of her.. Otherwise she'll sit there or explore her little tub with no wobble.. I feel like they do it to tease us T.T...

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This is very accurate for many spiders. You may never notice anything until its excited then a little bounce before the strike. This is mild wobble which to an untrained eye would probably go unnoticed, some even say mine doesn't wobble. In my experience mild wobbled spiders produce mild wobble. What you want to look out for is the train wreck wobble where they have severe motor skill problems and corkscrew erratically. In all my years of snake keeping I have only seen these on the internet. When ever I look to buy a spider(or combo) the first question is how is the wobble? Aside from that spiders are great snakes and do wonderful things to different morphs.IMO they are a must have if you are serious about ball python designer morphs.

I have a pinstripe, who was sired by a spider, who has a noticeable wobble. I don't know if they are linked or just a coincidence, but there is no mistaking that its there.

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What wobble?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq7ux...&feature=g-upl


Ok, MAYBE a little. She more vibrates than wobbles before striking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YinqqwZJII&feature=g-upl


You cannot let a few youtube videos of bad wobble deter you from a Spider.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I have a pinstripe, who was sired by a spider, who has a noticeable wobble. I don't know if they are linked or just a coincidence, but there is no mistaking that its there.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

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That may be an incubation issue?

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

When ever I look to buy a spider(or combo) the first question is how is the wobble?

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You know what the answer always is when I ask if the snake has a wobble?

"Definitely no wobble in my spiders!"

That's the answer I would get from everyone I would ask :rolleyes:.. I don't ask them to find out if it has a wobble or not, I only ask how SEVERE it is... Will it be so bad that it bothers me?? Will it barely be noticeable, if at all like Jinx's calider?? Instead, I get the salesmen.

However, in response to Jinx's video, my spider used to only eat LIVE rats, and he switched over to f/t. When feeding on live, he never wobbled... His head would slightly shift from left to right, but it looked like normal ball python "zeroing-in" behavior. When I switched him to f/t, I hold the mouse in front of him, but it's still in the air.. This is when I noticed him wobble.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

You know what the answer always is when I ask if the snake has a wobble?

"Definitely no wobble in my spiders!"

That's the answer I would get from everyone I would ask :rolleyes:.. I don't ask them to find out if it has a wobble or not, I only ask how SEVERE it is... Will it be so bad that it bothers me?? Will it barely be noticeable, if at all like Jinx's calider?? Instead, I get the salesmen.

However, in response to Jinx's video, my spider used to only eat LIVE rats, and he switched over to f/t. When feeding on live, he never wobbled... His head would slightly shift from left to right, but it looked like normal ball python "zeroing-in" behavior. When I switched him to f/t, I hold the mouse in front of him, but it's still in the air.. This is when I noticed him wobble.

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I usually know/trust the person I am dealing with, but I agree they all have it to some degree.

When feeding F/T to the Spinner, he has missed before, but did not wobble before that. Just flat out missed.

It's not 'attached' to the spider gene, and it is not a separate gene.

It IS the spider gene. Many mutations affect multiple systems in the body. Whatever gene is responsible for the spider morph, it causes pattern, color, AND neurological changes.

Wobbling is not always genetic. It can also be caused by neurological damage during incubation, if the temperature spikes. It's usually recommended not to breed such animals, as it MAY be due to a new mutation that only causes the wobble, but in reality, it is almost always developmental, and would not be passed on. Temperature-spike defects shouldn't be confused for genetic issues. If there's strong reason to suspect a spike, a spike is known, then keep this in mind when evaluating hatchlings.

Some morph genes cause issues. A geneticist would probably be fascinated by these snakes, and I know I would be curious to know what the mutation is that causes both changes in colors and in neurological development or function.

This type of thing isn't unprecedented at all. For example, piebald and albino animals (such as dogs and cats) are prone to deafness, because melanocytes in the inner ear are related to normal hearing. Blue-eyed white cats, for example, are usually deaf--65% to 85% of the time.

It's possible, of course, that blue-eyed leucistic ball pythons are, as well. Testing for it would be an interesting puzzle.

Thank you everyone for all of your responses. I will start looking at Spiders and variations on them at some shows just to do a little more research.

BTW to WingedWolfPsion, I hear the pied ball pythons have proven to show 100% deafness, so you could be onto something. ;)

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"Definitely no wobble in my spiders!"

That's the answer I would get from everyone I would ask :rolleyes:.. I don't ask them to find out if it has a wobble or not, I only ask how SEVERE it is... Will it be so bad that it bothers me?? Will it barely be noticeable, if at all like Jinx's calider?? Instead, I get the salesmen.

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You've been asking the wrong people ;)

Whenever someone has asked me "does this spider wobble" I have always answer they all do :gj: and than I go on into a long explanation.

I have been lucky that my original spider has a very slight wobble and so far all of her offsprings do the same (at least the ones I have held back)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

You've been asking the wrong people ;)

Whenever someone has asked me "does this spider wobble" I have always answer they all do :gj: and than I go on into a long explanation.

I have been lucky that my original spider has a very slight wobble and so far all of her offsprings do the same (at least the ones I have held back)

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Yeah I know... LOL. Luckily I'm not looking for any other spider morph :D. I got all the spider I need right now :gj:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's not 'attached' to the spider gene, and it is not a separate gene.

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We haven't proven this (unless somebody did when I wasn't looking!). It absolutely could be a separate, but very tightly linked gene -- so tightly linked that one is not inherited without the other.

I tend to believe that it is due to the pleiotropic effects of one single mutation, only because there are now so many mutations that we know to be affected with similar neurologic problems (woma, HG woma, sable, champagne, etc., etc..). However, the scattered reports of neurologic non-spider offspring from spider parents does make me wonder if we are looking at a linked gene that is very rarely crossing over. I doubt it, but it isn't outside of the realm of possibility.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

We haven't proven this (unless somebody did when I wasn't looking!). It absolutely could be a separate, but very tightly linked gene -- so tightly linked that one is not inherited without the other.

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You know, I will be the first to say I am not a geneticist, I haven't taken any college courses on the subject, BUT....
I do not think this is actually a thing. I've never heard of this being possible, and I cannot imagine how it COULD be possible. Genes do not stick together in this fashion. Yes, I've heard that claim about granite and HG Woma, but again...I do not think this is actually possible.

If someone has a valid (scientific) reference to back this up, I would of course change my mind. I'd be curious as to the explanation on how genes can become 'stuck together'.

I will point out, however, that even if this were true, the original imported spider had the wobble, so it doesn't really matter--for all intents and purposes, it would act as a single gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linked_genes
http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...e/linkage1.htm

;)

I mean no offense by this, and I do hope you won't take any offense as you already stated that you don't have a strong background in genetics. So, I hope you will pardon me for providing a Wikipedia link instead of any published studies, as linkage is actually a very basic and fundamental concept in genetics and therefore well-established enough that most of the studies I can find are looking at which genes are linked to which other genes, and not talking about the concept of linkage itself. So yes, linkage is definitely a "thing." ;) ;)

In veterinary medicine, one example that comes to mind is in goats. The polled (hornless) gene is a desirable gene for many goat breeders as horns can be dangerous to both the handler and fellow goats, and many goats are de-horned as babies which requires a vet visit. However, the polled gene is very tightly linked to a detrimental gene for hermaphroditism. It is so tightly linked that the two are ALWAYS inherited together -- however, they are NOT the same gene.

At the end of the day, though, you are 100% correct when you say this:

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I will point out, however, that even if this were true, the original imported spider had the wobble, so it doesn't really matter--for all intents and purposes, it would act as a single gene.

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For all intents and purposes, if two genes are THAT tightly linked, they are inherited as one, so it really doesn't matter. It matters only if they are tightly linked, but not SO tightly that they couldn't one day cross over and separate in one individual, who could then be used to propagate a line of wobble-less spiders. :rolleyes: