Single genes are "boring"...

After 12 snakes, I must say that single genes are boring.

I want an enchi, but I see no point in buying a single gene enchi.
Enchi lessers, on the other hand, are awesome.

I'll never be the guy to buy a bunch of cheap female normals just to get to breeding.

I still consider all 12 snakes to be pets first.
I plan to breed when they finally get to size, but I would consider breeding to a normal female boring as well.
All my projects would be multi-gene and provide for much more interesting outcome.

Anyone share this philosophy?

When you deal with anything enough it becomes "boring". I loved shooting guns, but in the Army going to the range became boring after a while. Anything that's cool will seem Mundane after doing it enough.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

After 12 snakes, I must say that single genes are boring.

I want an enchi, but I see no point in buying a single gene enchi.
Enchi lessers, on the other hand, are awesome.

I'll never be the guy to buy a bunch of cheap female normals just to get to breeding.

I still consider all 12 snakes to be pets first.
I plan to breed when they finally get to size, but I would consider breeding to a normal female boring as well.
All my projects would be multi-gene and provide for much more interesting outcome.

Anyone share this philosophy?

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Could not disagree more. I find a normal Ball Python to be one of the best.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Could not disagree more. I find a normal Ball Python to be one of the best.

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Same here.

To me, what's exciting about breeding these animals (aside from the sheer "gee whiz" geeky fun of it ;) ) is the prospect of potentially producing something really neato.

That could be a multi-gene combo, and most of the time, for most of us, it probably is. However, it could also be an improvement on a single-gene. For example, this year I bred my bumblebee male to a normal, but very reduced-pattern, female in an attempt to reduce the pattern of my bee line even more.

For some people, the single-genes are boring and it's the prospect of producing a new combo that's the real fun part. However, there is still a lot of value in breeding to carefully selected normal females to improve the appearance of your single-gene components.

I agree with you, however, that taking single-gene (or even multi-gene) males and breeding them to a whole bunch of normal females just to pump out babies for re-sale is pretty boring. I'm not going to fault or demonize those who do it so long as the animals are well-cared for and healthy, but it certainly doesn't jive with my motivations for breeding.

IMHO, it depends on the gene. I LOVE lessers, butters, pastels, and a number of other single gene animals. I lean towards the colorful animals, rather than the funky patterned ones. If you shoved a bunch of spiders and enchis on me, I'd be bored for sure.

I agree with what julie said^. Im not really a pattern guy either. Enchis are nice, but pins and spiders arent really my favorites. They brown out things imo.

Some single genes and even multigene animals bore me a ton and id take a nice normal over them anyday. Like champagnes, i dont like them or any of their combos really. Same with clowns, i dont like most clown combos, super pastel clowns are pretty cool though.
I love darker morphs like mojos and cinnamons. And highlighting the darker morphs with light genes like pastel or fire is nice too. Then you mix a little hypo in and boom you got a snake i can appreciate!

Everyone need normal females. That's one way to figure out exactly what's in a multilevel combo when you start making 4 and 5 gene combos.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Rob

When you deal with anything enough it becomes "boring". I loved shooting guns, but in the Army going to the range became boring after a while. Anything that's cool will seem Mundane after doing it enough.

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Breathing is boring but I've no plans to give it up.

:D

I have yet to see a Pied or an Albino that I thought was boring...

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Originally Posted by Slim

I have yet to see a Pied or and Albino that I thought was boring...

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I agree!

Im the type of guy that would never buy a 2 and 3 gene animal...i like to buy what it takes to breed them myself. Thats what I love about this hobby !!!!

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

Bananas and Coral Glows are pretty pricey for a boring snake then.

I too have yet to find an Albino or Pied boring.

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Originally Posted by Reddog

Im the type of guy that would never buy a 2 and 3 gene animal...i like to buy what it takes to breed them myself. Thats what I love about this hobby !!!!

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

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I have 1.0 Bee and 1.2 100% het Clowns, just to see what might happen.

That's about as far out on the limb as I'll go.

:)

I'm very new at this. I think the fun and enjoyment is taking your single gene collection, and making it the way you want. Starting with 2,3,4 gene is fine, but you didn't make them. Making your single genes into 2-4 gene, and saying you produced that, now that's called an accomplishment. Anyone can buy it, but making it is a whole new ball game. I'm excited to have my single genes, and to see where I can take it in the next few years.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Bananas and Coral Glows are pretty pricey for a boring snake then.

I too have yet to find an Albino or Pied boring.

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Are they single gene?

Wow.

:O

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Originally Posted by 4Ballz

I'm very new at this. I think the fun and enjoyment is taking your single gene collection, and making it the way you want. Starting with 2,3,4 gene is fine, but you didn't make them. Making your single genes into 2-4 gene, and saying you produced that, now that's called an accomplishment. Anyone can buy it, but making it is a whole new ball game. I'm excited to have my single genes, and to see where I can take it in the next few years.

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It's like buying a "custom" Harley off the showroom floor.

If you didn't customize it, is it really a "custom"?

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Originally Posted by Reddog

Im the type of guy that would never buy a 2 and 3 gene animal...i like to buy what it takes to breed them myself. Thats what I love about this hobby !!!!

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

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x1,000!!!!

I do not share the same philosophy. Like some others have said it's quality over quantity when it comes to genes. There are many normals and pastels (for example) that blow single or double gene BPs out of the water.

To each their own.

However I for one completely disagree with you. I have 3 completely normal females in my collection. However, one of those normals was selected for extreme lightness, and when bred to my vanilla male, produced offspring that were lighter and brighter than the vanilla pastels another breeder produced. He took his snakes to 5 shows before they sold, even though he had them very reasonably priced. Mine sold at the first show I took them to.

This season, my biggest normal female, who carries a lot of blushing, was bred to my fire male. And even though her babies have another month before they hatch, any fires that hatch are already sold. Just from the pictures of her and him, people are lined up to get her babies, because people recognize they should be excellent representations of the morph.

Two gene animals can be very nice that is true, but they can also be as poor or poorer than a single gene. I've seen Fireflies that were just as browned out as most Pastels, which results when people just throw any two animals together without considering the quality. I've seen Bumblebees I could barely tell apart from a Spider. I've also seen one Bumblebee who was so spectacular I would have sworn it was at least a three or four gene animal.

I've seen NERD stuff in person. Most people oooooh, and aaaaah over their 4 and 5 and 6 gene stuff. You wanna know something? I saw plenty of multi-multi gene stuff that was no more interesting than most normals. So what if it's a 6 gene first-of-it's-kind, if the snake is about as interesting to look at as drying paint. I saw a handful of single gene snakes at Tinely Park I had to back up and look at twice, and some of those multi gene snakes I barely glanced at.

Gale

all reptiles are fun, never boring. unless you lose your love for them...

Single gene snakes are boring...:rofl:
You can't make those hot combo's without hot single gene snakes in the first place

I produce some of those neat double and triple gene combo's but there's just something special about a smokin hot single gene snakes.

Just a boring old yellowbelly...:P
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/PICT9926.jpg

Fair enough.

I meant more to say that why pick up an enchi, when you can pick up an enchi lesser.

And then bred the enchi lesser to a bumblebee instead of just a pastel.

The more genes, the more possibilities.

I do have a male lesser (single gene and awesome), but at this stage, I would not consider just a female lesser to pair him with. Hence I picked up a Pastel Majove.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

Fair enough.

I meant more to say that why pick up an enchi, when you can pick up an enchi lesser.

And then bred the enchi lesser to a bumblebee instead of just a pastel.

The more genes, the more possibilities.

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Because not everyone can afford a $2000 enchi lesser, but lots of people can afford a quality enchi male and a lesser female to breed to when it grows up.

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Originally Posted by Salamander

Are they single gene?

Wow.

:O

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Indeed.

Banana - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/banana-ball/
Coral Glow - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/coral-glow/

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Because not everyone can afford a $2000 enchi lesser, but lots of people can afford a quality enchi male and a lesser female to breed to when it grows up.

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Exactly x2!
I love super cinnies and cinny combos but didnt have $1k to spend on a super cinny. So instead i bought a pair of cinnies to make my own. I'll also probably still produce just cinnies for awhile bc i love the morph. Holdback the nicest looking examples and then breed them to continue producing nice cinnies and super cinnies!

Your plain old yb is awesome looking by the way!

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Indeed.

Banana - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/banana-ball/
Coral Glow - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/coral-glow/

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Wow...imagine the look on the face of the first person who had those guys pop up!

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Originally Posted by Salamander

Wow...imagine the look on the face of the first person who had those guys pop up!

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Those guys pulled out their wallets and paid tens of thousands of dollars for them from Africa. ;)

I was not bored when I saw this over the weekend. Sadly, it is only a single gene since it was a pied X pied pairing.

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/q...ripeAlbino.jpg

Haha this is a pretty good post.

However, I love my enchis! LOL. I've got 3 snakes with enchi in 'em. I've got a female enchi which I believe is extremely important to have! Any enchi combo MALE I produce will go straight to her once she's able to produce eggs :bow:!! I plan on throwing different ones just to get a "who's your daddy" super enchi clutch *drool*!!!

I've also got an enchi het pied male which is a complete SMOKER. AND they look nicer as adults! I also have an enchi lesser male (cost was split for my bday :D). I love him to death.. He's close to being my pride n joy :gj:. When I any of them out, I really enjoy looking at all the gold in my enchi girl.. For the enchi lesser male, just about everything is fantastic about him. His colors, his pattern, and his mean attitude :P!


Another single gene that I find amazing is the spider! It was my first morph! It's a male, and I have no plans to breed him, but I made sure I can have some spider in my future with my killerbee :gj:!!

I understand your point of view though. Remember where those beautiful morphs that you're seeing came from though. They all started with a "boring" base morph :gj:. I don't mind having a pinstripe, spider, enchi, or a calico. They all look completely different from each other and their colors are so different when placed next to each other :gj:.

Lastly, of course CO$T plays a huge role in what people have in their collections. As stated above, some people can afford the expensive combo morphs. Others will settle for the base morphs in hopes of producing some of their favorites :gj:. These options are what make snake breeding fun for me. Everyone can do their own thing :gj:.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

After 12 snakes, I must say that single genes are boring.

I want an enchi, but I see no point in buying a single gene enchi.
Enchi lessers, on the other hand, are awesome.

I'll never be the guy to buy a bunch of cheap female normals just to get to breeding.

I still consider all 12 snakes to be pets first.
I plan to breed when they finally get to size, but I would consider breeding to a normal female boring as well.
All my projects would be multi-gene and provide for much more interesting outcome.

Anyone share this philosophy?

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Not to pick but you said you plan on breeding all twelve of your snakes. Your signature has twelve snakes listed and the first one is a normal male..... You also have a single gene Piebald and Pinstripe listed....

I completely disagree with your opinion. I could have gone out and bought a Spinner, but instead I bought an amazing female Spider and male Pinstripe. Now I can make a Spinner, as well as other combos (Pinstripe het Albinos, Pinstripes, Lemon Blasts, and Pastels) all in the same breeding cycle by breeding my one Pinstripe to all my females.

Not to bash multi gene snakes, but honestly I prefer to keep everything simple. I can make the exact combo I like without any extras that could mess with what I am trying to do. I love that I can keep things "pure" without "extras" I don't want to have. I would never breed my Pinstripe to my Albino or het albino unless I was wanting to take the project further and wanted to make a Pinstripe Albino. If I only had a Pinstripe het albino I would always have to take in consideration the albino part. I can always go back to the basics and do exactly what I want. Plus the snakes I have are exactly what I like in the morphs and would want to reproduce.

Part of the fun of breeding is making what I like. Yes I could go out and buy a Bee. However to me the fun of breeding comes from having say in it every step of the way, and not having to find what I like or accepting someone else's standards.

Not all 12. The normal was the first one that started the craze.

By the time my Spider het Ghost is ready (next year I believe), I will probably have added another female or two. So roughy 5 males to 6 or 7 females.

I remember seeing my first bumblebee and saying "Wow, that's awesome. Too bad I'll never be able to spend $600 on a snake". Now after dropping $1200, suddenly my $450 Pastave is "cheap".

There are plenty of combos I will not buy simply so that I can produce one. My bumblebee to my pinstripe for Spinners, Spinner Blasts and Lemon Blasts.

I'm not saying that anything with double or triple genes is better than a single gene snake.

But I like the possibilities of my Silver Bullet to my Bumblebee are far lot better than my Pinstripe to my Lesser even though I really want to produce a Kingpin.

By reading this (given you only have 12 snakes and are already bored) I am gonna say that it will not matter how many genes you will work with you will get bored anyway sooner or later...........maybe it's just not for you, maybe you need to find a less boring and more exciting hobby.

Now there is nothing wrong with working with multiple gene animals (I do) but passion is passion whether you have a normal or a signal gene animal and that's what truly missing in your case.

No criticism just food for the thought.

Boring right? http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/coral-glow/
Boring too? http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...tramelanistic/

If that's the case I can't wait to be bored ;)

I dont see how any true enthusist could get bored unless its just not their cup of tea. theres a lot of morphs that dont make the top of my list but normals will always be a staple with me. I love the thrill of checking a clutch pipping and cant wait to see what the morphed gene has done to the normal offspring. You can call me nuts but normals from my spider clutches always have a little different patteren than the normals from a lesser clutch. I know there isnt a true marker for het albino but my het albinos could get dumped into a box of other normals and i'm pretty sure I could pick them out. they just have that "something different look". I have 30 bp's in my stable and 12 of them are normal but everyone was carefully considered and selected to be bred with which morph to try and highlight that particular morphs attributes. Thats a huge part of the appeal for me. Thats my two cents worth.

This thread is boring but hatching single gene ball pythons is not;)

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

Fair enough.

I meant more to say that why pick up an enchi, when you can pick up an enchi lesser.

And then bred the enchi lesser to a bumblebee instead of just a pastel.

The more genes, the more possibilities.

I do have a male lesser (single gene and awesome), but at this stage, I would not consider just a female lesser to pair him with. Hence I picked up a Pastel Majove.

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Because the majority of people are in it for the love, they want to work with animals that appeal to them. Not everybody likes enchi, not everybody likes lesser, etc, etc. Also, if you're breeding for something specific(bumblebee for instance), adding genes that aren't a part of that morph will only diminish your chances of producing the desired snake.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

After 12 snakes, I must say that single genes are boring.

I want an enchi, but I see no point in buying a single gene enchi.
Enchi lessers, on the other hand, are awesome.

I'll never be the guy to buy a bunch of cheap female normals just to get to breeding.

I still consider all 12 snakes to be pets first.
I plan to breed when they finally get to size, but I would consider breeding to a normal female boring as well.
All my projects would be multi-gene and provide for much more interesting outcome.

Anyone share this philosophy?

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Have you seen my Enchi and some of the others on here. A GOOD Enchi can be just as exciting as anything, as can a good Calico/Sugar etc, etc...

I kinda agree that if you are getting bored, this may not be your cup of tea. Appreciating the base morphs IMO is necessary. Those who strive to have the best in single gene animals will go on to produce the top tier multi gene. You have to respect where it came from.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/PICT9926.jpg

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Feel free to send me that substandard boring animal to me if you can't stand it anymore. I'll do my best to deal with it for you. ;)

Gale

No need to keep this going, but I would like to end on this:

I am in no way bored. (I have not even started yet).
I will just never be the guy who breeds his Lesser to a normal. I see no point in hatching ONLY Lessers (yes, they are awesome in their own right.)

I will however breed my Lesser to my Pastave and have the potential to hatch Pastel BEL, BEL, Pastaves, Pastels, Lessers and even normals. If I ended up with all Lessers or Majoves, that is fine. Its the POTENTIAL that is more EXCITING.

And the point was to see if anyone else shared the philosophy of not hatching out single genes. It was never to bash on single genes or people who want to hatch them

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

And the point was to see if anyone else shared the philosophy of not hatching out single genes. It was never to bash on single genes or people who want to hatch them

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I never thought you were bashing on anything. I just pointed out valid reasons to want to breed something other than your maximum possible gened out snakes. The more you add in the mix the lower your odds on each individual possibility.

I like the well planned projects that use 2 or 3 different genes...it usually ends up with an animal that has a lot more pop than a normal, but it hasn't gotten muddied up by too many different genes...

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

I will just never be the guy who breeds his Lesser to a normal. I see no point in hatching ONLY Lessers (yes, they are awesome in their own right.)

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Have you ever hatched out a clutch of Lessers?

I don't necessarily agree that single gene balls are boring, but I would prefer breeding multi genes to multi genes, just because I get a thrill from seeing how the odds worked out and what kind of snakes will be in the clutch. There's nothing cooler to me than seeing 5-8 different colored snakes coming from the same parents!

But, I would also enjoy a normal x normal breeding because I love hatching eggs and baby snakes, no matter what their phenotype is, are adorable. I just don't think I could breed a normal x normal out of responsibility for the fact that there is little to no market for normals here.

I definitely disagree! I love our normals and single gene animals just as much as any other animal.
There is also one thing when it comes to breeding and selling animals that no one brought up and that is your reputation as a breeder. I believe that you need to start out with single gene animals and more simple combos to start with to build your reputation in this hobby/industry.
I know I am more likely to make a higher dollar purchase for a multi-gene animal from someone that has put their time in and has built their rep from the ground up. Rather than someone who just shows up trying to sell 3-4+ gene animals.
Having a good rep is also very important when you are dealing with combos such as a Pastel BEL as you have used in your example. There is no way I would purchase one from someone that doesn't have a good rep. because of the risk involved with such an animal.
Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

And the point was to see if anyone else shared the philosophy of not hatching out single genes. It was never to bash on single genes or people who want to hatch them

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I get what your point is now, you just worded it kinda awkwardly in the first post i think.

Youre saying its boring knowing that in a lesser x normal pairing theres only a chance to get lessers or normals. You think its more exciting when theres the possibility for multi gene snakes to pop out and multiple different combo possibilities. I get what youre saying now i think. Im still kinda the opposite though i think. If i produce a male super cinny then the next year ill probably just pair him with the mom to better my odds to 50% supers. I think its more of a personal preference. Im a very right brained person so having to deal with a surprise of the possibilty of hatching out like 16 different combos would be too much for me lol. Super cinny x cinny is more my style. The babies would either be cinny or super cinny. No big surprises haha.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

To each their own.

However I for one completely disagree with you. I have 3 completely normal females in my collection. However, one of those normals was selected for extreme lightness, and when bred to my vanilla male, produced offspring that were lighter and brighter than the vanilla pastels another breeder produced. He took his snakes to 5 shows before they sold, even though he had them very reasonably priced. Mine sold at the first show I took them to.

This season, my biggest normal female, who carries a lot of blushing, was bred to my fire male. And even though her babies have another month before they hatch, any fires that hatch are already sold. Just from the pictures of her and him, people are lined up to get her babies, because people recognize they should be excellent representations of the morph.

Two gene animals can be very nice that is true, but they can also be as poor or poorer than a single gene. I've seen Fireflies that were just as browned out as most Pastels, which results when people just throw any two animals together without considering the quality. I've seen Bumblebees I could barely tell apart from a Spider. I've also seen one Bumblebee who was so spectacular I would have sworn it was at least a three or four gene animal.

I've seen NERD stuff in person. Most people oooooh, and aaaaah over their 4 and 5 and 6 gene stuff. You wanna know something? I saw plenty of multi-multi gene stuff that was no more interesting than most normals. So what if it's a 6 gene first-of-it's-kind, if the snake is about as interesting to look at as drying paint. I saw a handful of single gene snakes at Tinely Park I had to back up and look at twice, and some of those multi gene snakes I barely glanced at.

Gale

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:gj: :grouphug: im with you 100% love my normals!

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

I will just never be the guy who breeds his Lesser to a normal. I see no point in hatching ONLY Lessers (yes, they are awesome in their own right.)

I will however breed my Lesser to my Pastave and have the potential to hatch Pastel BEL, BEL, Pastaves, Pastels, Lessers and even normals. If I ended up with all Lessers or Majoves, that is fine. Its the POTENTIAL that is more EXCITING.

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That's fun and exciting in its own right, sure. However, anyone really can play that game. All you have to do is look up online what it takes to make your desired combo of choice, plug and play, and pray for the odds. (Not that it's THAT easy, granted -- but still.)

What is more challenging, to me, is figuring out how to improve on the next generation. That doesn't necessarily mean "How do I pack more genes in there?" A super spinner blast that was made with brown pastels, a dull, spotty spider and a dark, busy pinstripe may look okay on its own, but is likely to produce crummy-looking offspring.

I wouldn't breed a lesser to a normal just to produce more lessers. That would be getting close to "boring," IMO. (As much as any snake breeding could really ever be called "boring ..!" :O) However, I might do so to improve on my lesser bloodline. That's a bit more challenging than breeding my lesser to my mojave to produce BELs, because I knew (because I read it on The Interwebs) that all I needed to make my BEL was a lesser and a mojave. To improve on my lesser, I'd have to look at him, figure out what I want to improve on him (reduce the pattern, lighten up the colors, etc.) and then find a female that I thought would compliment him nicely.

The clutch itself might not seem as "exciting" as the BEL clutch, but in some ways, I think that owning an A+ knockout lesser that I produced using careful selective breeding is more impressive than a BEL that I produced by looking up the ingredients online and praying to the Odds Gods. ;) (Not that the Odds Gods weren't real good to me -- but still.)