Desert female documentation for fertility?

Since people write up documentation that guarantees genetics of a heterozygous snake, why don't people write up documentation for desert females saying that they WILL produce viable eggs? The people who are selling them seem to be telling their customers that deserts are 100% fertile and that everyone will see soon enough... If they're that confident, why not write up documentation? If the snake doesn't reproduce, then a full refund is in order? I don't know how it would work... this is just a thought I had when I got to work :P...

It would never work. You could do the same for any morph, or animal but it doesn't mean they will lay viable eggs. You could do it with a pastel but it doesn't mean that she will breed and lay eggs. Every snake is different and not all snakes will breed it depends on the individual animal.
Tom

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Originally Posted by 1nstinct

It would never work. You could do the same for any morph, or animal but it doesn't mean they will lay viable eggs. You could do it with a pastel but it doesn't mean that she will breed and lay eggs. Every snake is different and not all snakes will breed it depends on the individual animal.
Tom

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Right. But that's why I brought up hets. What if you just have crap luck and don't produce any hets? Similar situation to deserts not laying eggs. Even 1 egg that goes full term and hatches a little baby ball python would mean that the documentation is good!

I see what both of y'all are saying but instinct if she doesn't lay eggs at al is different than being infertile or atleast I would think being infertile would mean it would be able to lay eggs but they would not survive or at least that's how I would look at it

With hets, the breeder is guaranteeing that the snake has the gene, they are not guaranteeing that the snake will breed and produce viable eggs. There are so many variables to breeding that I don't think anyone would put their name and reputation on for one specific. And plus say the desert doesn't lay viable clutches the first time being breed how long you you wait. Do you tell the customer you need to try for x amount of seasons before a return could be refunded?
Don't get me wrong it would be amazing for every snake to come with a guarantee that the snake will breed but mother nature doesn't always work like you expect, so I'm pretty sure it will never happen
Tom

I don't think that would be a good idea cause there are a several other reasons why a female may not reproduce, aside from the possible issues with the desert itself.
The snake may not feel its body ready.
The males used in the breeding may potentially be to blame for a bad clutch as well.
The owners husbandry may not be to the snakes liking for reproduction.
The snake simply doesn't want to.
Possibly a hidden illness hindering them from reproducing.

My First clutch that came from a 2004 CH female, though I obtained her in 2009 she was still a virgin at 2400g so this was also her first clutch as well. Thats about 6 yrs before any eggs came from this female(Not counting the 2 years where she simply wasn't mature age-wise), I had tired to breed her every year but with no results till this year.(repeated follicle reabsorption despite her size and age).That could make someone think there are some reproductive issues with her, but in the end she laid 9 perfectly fertile eggs that went full term.

Some people seem too impatient that even if they got a write up guarantee and they tried breeding the female for a year or two with no eggs they would jump the the conclusion that they are infertile and start calling for a refund when the snake may actually be fine.
That seems more likely since there are so many questions floating around about the deserts fertility some people may jump to conclusions.

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Originally Posted by 1nstinct

And plus say the desert doesn't lay viable clutches the first time being breed how long you you wait. Do you tell the customer you need to try for x amount of seasons before a return could be refunded?

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This exact statement can be made about guaranteeing hets.

I see your point in which hets can come with 100% guarantees that the gene is present, and you can't guarantee the will to breed.

This post is assuming that the snake does eventually lock, ovulate, then lay eggs. The person selling desert females are so sure that they will lay eggs, why not create documentation? If the desert lays infertile eggs, then what? Same with 100% hets.

What if a breeder accidentally mixed a non-het with a het, then it didn't prove out it's first year? Is there a set amount of seasons that will cause the person to return the snake? Get a refund? What? o_O?

This will be a moot point when Desert females cost $200.

How is anyone going to write up a document for a snake that hasn't shown the ability to give good eggs for anyone :confused:

The genetic documentation I provide states that the animal in question photographed on the paper does in fact carry the recessive trait I'm claiming it does.
That's the whole guarantee right there, nothing in it claims that the snake will breed or deliver eggs, that's just not going to happen.

Had this conversation yesterday over at Amir Soleymani's shop with a couple of folks who don't have much of an online presence, but who's snakes you've all probably seen at expos. The general consensus is we will see Russians on Mars before we see viable eggs from a Desert female...

But, as long as folks keep buying $1700 Deserts females, hope springs eternal!

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Originally Posted by Slim

Had this conversation yesterday over at Amir Soleymani's shop with a couple of folks who don't have much of an online presence, but who's snakes you've all probably seen at expos. The general consensus is we will see Russians on Mars before we see viable eggs from a Desert female...

But, as long as folks keep buying $1700 Deserts females, hope springs eternal!

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Prices that are only kept up by rumor and innuendo.

As far as paperwork, any given snake could be sub-fertile. Or the male could be shooting blanks, who knows (I am imaging this phrase is a Chris Walken accent, just for funsies). So I doubt we will ever see a guarantee of fertility or production.

I don't think any kind of guarantee should have to be written. I DO think that people selling animals with known issues should disclose this to potential customers before making a sale. You can't expect everybody to know all the known genetic issues out there, especially when certain breeders seem more than happy to keep such information to themselves.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I don't think any kind of guarantee should have to be written. I DO think that people selling animals with known issues should disclose this to potential customers before making a sale. You can't expect everybody to know all the known genetic issues out there, especially when certain breeders seem more than happy to keep such information to themselves.

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The problem is that breeders are selling deserts saying that they ARE fertile, and that they WILL lay eggs... Perhaps they're lying just to make a sale? That's wrong. lol

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Originally Posted by h00blah

The problem is that breeders are selling deserts saying that they ARE fertile, and that they WILL lay eggs... Perhaps they're lying just to make a sale? That's wrong. lol

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I have noticed this in ads. Folks saying that this or that Desert female will be "ready for next season". They are either delusional or liars.

As for buyers, if you are in the market for a >$1000 BP, you had darn well better have heard of the Desert issues... You can only blame so much on the seller.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I am imaging this phrase is a Chris Walken accent, just for funsies

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:rofl:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

As for buyers, if you are in the market for a >$1000 BP, you had darn well better have heard of the Desert issues... You can only blame so much on the seller.

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I wouldn't take advantage of the ignorant. Though is it the seller's responsibility to inform the buyer about the snake that they have for sale? I wouldn't blatantly say "deserts are infertile". I would say "There's a rumor going around that desert females do not lay viable eggs. I haven't proved this myself, but just something to know." Then leave it upto the buyer... The buyer could always say "it's impossible for one morph to be infertile.. gimme the desert".. Then you sell him the desert lol.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I wouldn't take advantage of the ignorant. Though is it the seller's responsibility to inform the buyer about the snake that they have for sale? I wouldn't blatantly say "deserts are infertile". I would say "There's a rumor going around that desert females do not lay viable eggs. I haven't proved this myself, but just something to know." Then leave it upto the buyer... The buyer could always say "it's impossible for one morph to be infertile.. gimme the desert".. Then you sell him the desert lol.

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I am not saying you should lie or withhold information. My point is that a consumer needs to make themselves informed when making a purchase, as not everyone has the same moral compass as we do.

I think at this point if someone buys a Desert female with no clue to the infertility issues, then that is an issue on their part as well.

Now, when they become super cheap and are being sold off as pets, I could see someone just buying the pretty baby BP, and they should be labeled as what they are from the seller: infertile.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I am not saying you should lie or withhold information. My point is that a consumer needs to make themselves informed when making a purchase, as not everyone has the same moral compass as we do.

I think at this point if someone buys a Desert female with no clue to the infertility issues, then that is an issue on their part as well.

Now, when they become super cheap and are being sold off as pets, I could see someone just buying the pretty baby BP, and they should be labeled as what they are from the seller: infertile.

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Agree 100%. I still find it to be a sticky situation. I can't wait for this whole thing to blow over already.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Had this conversation yesterday over at Amir Soleymani's shop with a couple of folks who don't have much of an online presence, but who's snakes you've all probably seen at expos. The general consensus is we will see Russians on Mars before we see viable eggs from a Desert female...

But, as long as folks keep buying $1700 Deserts females, hope springs eternal!

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Not trying to move off topic, but how is Ben doing? Is the shop doing good?

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Originally Posted by h00blah

Since people write up documentation that guarantees genetics of a heterozygous snake, why don't people write up documentation for desert females saying that they WILL produce viable eggs? The people who are selling them seem to be telling their customers that deserts are 100% fertile

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While I understand the point you are trying to make about a particular mutation there is problem, how can anyone guarantee that any female regardless of the mutation is fertile, or will lay egg successfully?

How could you guarantee that a male, any male is fertile?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

While I understand the point you are trying to make about a particular mutation there is problem, how can anyone guarantee that any female regardless of the mutation is fertile, or will lay egg successfully?

How could you guarantee that a male, any male is fertile?

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I have no idea. Hence the question that started this thread :P. Why don't breeders do that? The answer is because whether it's a desert or not, male or female, you can't guarantee that the animal in question is fertile or that it will even breed in the first place.

The problem that I was thinking about on my way to work was that breeders are selling deserts and telling people that buy the snake from them that they WILL produce viable eggs! This bothers me, and I can't seem to come up with any real solutions to this problem... Jinx brought up a good point in saying that the seller should research the animal they're about to buy, but on the other side, the seller shouldn't lie or withhold any information regarding the animal. Ultimately, it's upto an INFORMED customer to decide whether or not they want to take that risk.... I just wish the sellers would stop adding to the problem by guaranteeing that the morph is fertile, causing more and more mixed information!

Dont mean to butt in, but is the proof of combos= all male dessert breedings?

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

Dont mean to butt in, but is the proof of combos= all male dessert breedings?

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This is a forum! 'butting in' is encouraged :gj:!

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but on the other side, the seller shouldn't lie or withhold any information regarding the animal. Ultimately, it's upto an INFORMED customer to decide whether or not they want to take that risk

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Agreed on both accounts and it goes from everything from Spider wobble to kinking in Caramels etc, I think buyers should research the mutation they plan to acquire and I believe the seller should be honest as well when answering a potential customer concerns but like everything else it's not perfect.