What is Wobble?

I know it is in spiders, but can someone tell me what are the signs and why is it so undisired?

thanks
Brian

It's a neurological trait in the spider gene. They will kind of sway their head in different angles, they will lay on their backs sometimes, some will cork screw. Honestly it doesn't effect anything, they eat and breed just as well if not better from what is have seen, then any snake. Spiders are a great morph and should be in every collectors rack.

Edit- I just noticed you have a honey bee. So you should know what it is. All spider gene snakes have it to some degree, some are a lot more obvious. Also somethings can really trigger it, such as feeding.

It's way overrated in my opinion. My spider has a wobble and she's one of my favorites :)
A wobble can be as subtle as a slight tilt of the head to as severe as corkscrewing. It can get better or worse with age, and is completely random as far as anyone knows. A spider with little-no wobble can have offspring that corkscrews, and vice versa.

I dont think i have noticed anything.

When he eats he sometimes try to eat the mouse upside down, but for only 10 -15 seconds.

i still kinda do not understand what it is.

I have a spider with a very low "wobble". It really isn't that bad. He is only about 2 years old and you can hardly notice it. At times-Like feeding time it's more noticiable. But with that said he is one of my favorite snakes in my collection and it really doesn't bother him or me at all. In fact he is one of my best eaters I have. So really not too much for concern.

I youtube videos on wobble, The only time i have seen it in my snake is when he is trying to swallow a mouse.

thank you everyone for your info.

~Brian

I think it's adorable. xD My little guy only shows it when he's getting excited about feeding time.

I had a bumblebee with wobble and it was pretty strong in him. He would constantly keep looking up, then flip his head and neck upside down. He didn't really roll around on his back and it didn't seem to be triggered by stress as he did not do it when he was picked up. I have another BB and he does not appear to really do it until you pick him up then he does it some what.

It is one of those things you just have to accept if you work with the morph.

I will see my spider corkscrew normally on Friday and Saturday, when I'm going to feed him.

I've caught him sleeping in the corkscrew position.

It does sometimes seem to affect him when he's trying to locate his "kill". He'll corkscrew when trying to look for the head of the rodent. It doesn't bother me much. My killerbee will corkscrew as well. She will corkscrew when I hold food in front of her, but when she strikes, it's typically straight on lol. I think they're trying to psyche their prey out or something haha.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

It seems that the degree of spider wobble seems to be as well.

I find that depending on one's experience with "normal snake movement", the balance/motor control/whatever issues associated with the spider trait may seem to be more unnatural, more severe, or perhaps even non-existent to different observers.

The best way to get an idea of what to look for with a spider wobble is to observe lots of non spiders, particularly during handling or anytime they are actively moving. Then, take yourself to a reptile show and browse the tables and pay attention to the spiders on display. Upside down heads, mild "wobbling" or side to side movement of the head, and corkscrewing are readily observed in stressed out snakes in small, clear display units.

The one place that I've never seen spiders wobble is at my local pet shop. Their spiders are always tucked away in their hides when I come to browse, like good ball pythons should be. A calm, relaxed, motionless spider will not be displaying any wobble.

Wobble is either a neurological or inner ear disorder common to several ball python morphs, (most famously, the spider morph).

Animals that show signs may keep their head tilted slightly to one side, may shake when moving or stalking prey, and may be discoordinated. They may also spin in circles (in severe cases). One way to test for this is to turn the snake upside-down. An animal with wobbles will take an abnormally long time to turn its head right-side up, though its muscle tone is good, and it has no problems doing so.

Wow, glad I found this thread. I just purchased a small BP collection which included a 2011 female spider, and sure enough she has "the wobble". Worried me at first, but she's eating and seems fine otherwise. I named her "Spazzie Annie", and like most of you, I find her quite endearing. I won't attempt to breed her for a while yet, but when I do I was considering pairing her with my Dinker cinny male. Any thoughts on that?


Slitherous

I think it's kinda funny how, now a days, a wobble is considered "cute" by some. back in 2008 I was spanked pretty good on fauna for selling a woma
with a wobble to someone. I was a major newbie back then, still am but not so wet behind the ears :D, and didn't realize my woma's corkscrew
type movement was such a bad thing. the videos at the time didn't show what he was doing, so I said "no" when asked.
to this day I shy away from anything with spider or woma genes in it. And let me tell you I ADORE bumble bees. gonna end up with one some day,
especially since they are now in my price range.

as for the spider bred to your cinnamon dinker, go for, cinnabees at HOT!

My bee has the wobble pretty severe, he corkscrews a lot when I hold him but he pounds food and is growing super fast. Doesn't affect him in any way.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Wobble is either a neurological or inner ear disorder common to several ball python morphs, (most famously, the spider morph).

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Donna, do you have any articles on this? I had not known that the wobble was connected to inner ear and saccule. I would love to see any articles you may have found!
Thanks
Alex

Thanks for this thread. I had heard of "wobble" but was never really sure what it was. After reading this thread and looking up some videos I now understand what it is. My bumblebee has never displayed any signs of "wobble" from what I have observed. It's interesting how some snakes with the spider gene will show it a lot and others wont at all. Thanks again :)

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Donna, do you have any articles on this? I had not known that the wobble was connected to inner ear and saccule. I would love to see any articles you may have found!
Thanks
Alex

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Do snakes have saccules, or are they an anatomical feature found only in reptiles with an external ear?

And what does the inner ear of a snake serve with regards to balance?

Answer these two questions Alex and you'll figure out whether any articles exist..........

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/21...expansion.html

Yup they have both inner ear and saccule, I would assume they are balance. I know the hear or feel, hard to place human sense on a reptile, vibrations through the ground with mandible quadrate and columela auris (column of the ear if my latin serves)

http://www.herpnation.com/hn-blog/sn...=john-c-murphy

I hope there is actually real study of wobble and what it actually is rather than a lot of guesses.

Wobble to me looks like a neuromuscular issue the muscles just are not doing what the mind wants but that is absolutely nothing more than a guess. :)

Well, I am new to this forum, but not to snake keeping, and with all the in-breeding occurring to create all these different morphs it's no wonder a few neurological symptoms pop up. I find it interesting though that the spider morph in particular is known for the disorder. I remember back in the 80's having a single P molurus from a clutch which showed similar symptoms, (otherwise healthy though), but that clutch was from normal unrelated parents, and the entire clutch looked normal. I guess as long as the snake is eating and growing there is nothing to worry about from a husbandry point of view, but what about breeding a "wobbler"? Congenital disorders are rife in pure bred canines, and certain breeds have well-known tendencies for certain diseases and ailments. Are we as reptile breeders going down the same road with all of these "designer" morphs? I remember my sister spending 10K in vet bills one year on her pure bred dogs, and I for one could ill afford such a thing with my snakes. And, with prices of designer snakes fast approaching the level of pure bred dogs, (actually exceeding it in many instances), we are rolling genetic dice. Having a snake which wobbles but is otherwise healthy is one thing, but having animals with congenital tendencies to develop more serious disorders might be on the horizon, especially for those that persist in seeking the "holy grail" of BP morphs.

S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/21...expansion.html

Yup they have both inner ear and saccule, I would assume they are balance. I know the hear or feel, hard to place human sense on a reptile, vibrations through the ground with mandible quadrate and columela auris (column of the ear if my latin serves)

http://www.herpnation.com/hn-blog/sn...=john-c-murphy

I hope there is actually real study of wobble and what it actually is rather than a lot of guesses.

Wobble to me looks like a neuromuscular issue the muscles just are not doing what the mind wants but that is absolutely nothing more than a guess. :)

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Question Alex:

A saccule is intricately linked to balance and equilibrium - correct?

Therefore if someone has proved that the spider genetics result in a deformation to the inner ear, it should be easy to find - correct?

Or does it sound like someone's attempt to sound scholarly to explain an unknown genetic snafu? To be clear, this idea of an inner ear abnormality has been tossed around for a few years, but like many other things, it has gained credibility just by being repeated often. I know of no studies done.......and I would hazard to say none exist.

FWIW: I have the Hartline pdf somewhere on my hard drive. It says pretty much the same thing that your link does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

Well, I am new to this forum, but not to snake keeping, and with all the in-breeding occurring to create all these different morphs it's no wonder a few neurological symptoms pop up. I find it interesting though that the spider morph in particular is known for the disorder. I remember back in the 80's having a single P molurus from a clutch which showed similar symptoms, (otherwise healthy though), but that clutch was from normal unrelated parents, and the entire clutch looked normal. I guess as long as the snake is eating and growing there is nothing to worry about from a husbandry point of view, but what about breeding a "wobbler"? Congenital disorders are rife in pure bred canines, and certain breeds have well-known tendencies for certain diseases and ailments. Are we as reptile breeders going down the same road with all of these "designer" morphs? I remember my sister spending 10K in vet bills one year on her pure bred dogs, and I for one could ill afford such a thing with my snakes. And, with prices of designer snakes fast approaching the level of pure bred dogs, (actually exceeding it in many instances), we are rolling genetic dice. Having a snake which wobbles but is otherwise healthy is one thing, but having animals with congenital tendencies to develop more serious disorders might be on the horizon, especially for those that persist in seeking the "holy grail" of BP morphs.

S

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The Wobble in Spiders has nothing to do with inbreeding...Neither do any of the other Ball deformities...Super Blacks, Caramels, etc...

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Question Alex:

A saccule is intricately linked to balance and equilibrium - correct?

Therefore if someone has proved that the spider genetics result in a deformation to the inner ear, it should be easy to find - correct?

Or does it sound like someone's attempt to sound scholarly to explain an unknown genetic snafu? To be clear, this idea of an inner ear abnormality has been tossed around for a few years, but like many other things, it has gained credibility just by being repeated often. I know of no studies done.......and I would hazard to say none exist.

FWIW: I have the Hartline pdf somewhere on my hard drive. It says pretty much the same thing that your link does.

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If it is an inner ear issue yes it serves a CT or even X-ray of a spider should tell if there is deformities. It should be easy. Yes I believe the saccule is linked to balance bit of a leap of faith on my part I have not read any studies saying so but it is with most other animals so logic says yes it is.

Often people do try to sound scholarly and misuse terms, confuse definitions, or just plain ignore physics. I was hopeful that there is an article with at least some research into the cause of snake wobble. I am assuming, you, Skip, have also no of no such research? Pity that, I would like to know for certain. My thought is a neurological issue of some sort and not a balance issue. It looks like a spasticity and poor muscle control to me such as can some times be seen in stroke sufferers. Again just a guess on my part no evidence just observations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

If it is an inner ear issue yes it serves a CT or even X-ray of a spider should tell if there is deformities. It should be easy. Yes I believe the saccule is linked to balance bit of a leap of faith on my part I have not read any studies saying so but it is with most other animals so logic says yes it is.

Often people do try to sound scholarly and misuse terms, confuse definitions, or just plain ignore physics. I was hopeful that there is an article with at least some research into the cause of snake wobble. I am assuming, you, Skip, have also no of no such research? Pity that, I would like to know for certain. My thought is a neurological issue of some sort and not a balance issue. It looks like a spasticity and poor muscle control to me such as can some times be seen in stroke sufferers. Again just a guess on my part no evidence just observations.

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Alex, while balance is linked the saccule, there are other structures of the inner ear related to balance. We know how those structures relate to balance in animals that stand on two legs or four legs, but are not balance issues related to, well balance? Or coordinated movement? Think about what is wrong with the motor skills of a spider morph, do those seem balance related or do they seem more like neurological issues related to nerves or anxiety? You already answered that in a way........so I guess the question is rhetorical.

No, I have not seen any papers or studies related to genetic inner ear issues in ball python morphs. I think that this is an "educated" guess that has gained traction in the community..............or someone misread a description of the wobble in which it was likened to an inner ear infection in a mammal and ran with it.

The spiders I have seen exhibit the wobble only in certain situations - when they are stressed, hungry, horny, worried about the rising costs of Obamacare, fretting about the size of their hemipenes, whatever. They seem to have no movement issues and can strike prey, constrict prey, climb, etc. Sounds more like a neuro issue to me.............would you not agree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The spiders I have seen exhibit the wobble only in certain situations - when they are stressed, hungry, horny, worried about the rising costs of Obamacare, fretting about the size of their hemipenes, whatever.

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You absolutely kill me, Skip. I really hope to meet you one day.