Scientific approach to feeding?

I have heard and read a lot of conflicting information about how much to feed a ball python, all from supposed experts. However, the (conflicting) information is always too vague for me. "1 large rat per week." "1 rat slightly smaller in diameter than the snake every few weeks." Since the experts can't agree, is anyone taking this to the next level to determine the actual appropriate/ideal caloric intake or grams per kilogram per month? There are very well established guidelines for ideal human consumption, and for other animals as well, such as dogs, cats, horses, etc. Those animals have been kept by humans for so long that real scientists have had plenty of opportunity to study them thoroughly and determine ideal diets with specific calories per kg. Seems to me that snake keeping is either too new or too niche for scientists to take the time to study this in depth.

I really want to get it right and not over or under feed my bp. I had been feeding "jumbo" rats (i weighed them myself at about 225g each) every "few" weeks (i translated that to 3), but the snake exhibited signs of over feeding, as in, frequent shedding, large poops, and refusal to eat for 2 months after 4 of those feedings. We broke her fast with a "small" rat, at around 90g a week ago, and then another at 90g yesterday. The snake went from 2000g when we got her last oct, up to about 2500g, and now she's back down to about 2000g again, after her fast, which seems to be her comfort zone where she eats best. I definitely don't want to under feed her, since the 90g rats seem so small, but I don't want to overfeed her either.

The closest to a "scientific" approach was one done by Brian from BHB last year. He had 3 sets of hatchlings. Once set got the "standard" feeding regimen. And by "standard" it's what he does. I think that was prey just slighly wider than the snake every 4-5 days. His other groups were:

1) Feed smallers meals more often (3 days).
2) Feed slightly larger less often. (6-7 days).

If I recall correctly, the Larger Less Often group won out for growth. With the Smaller More Often group being the least successful.

Keep in mind this was for hatchlings who have higher metabolisms. I don't know of any type of feeding experiments for adults.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

I have heard and read a lot of conflicting information about how much to feed a ball python, all from supposed experts. However, the (conflicting) information is always too vague for me. "1 large rat per week." "1 rat slightly smaller in diameter than the snake every few weeks." Since the experts can't agree, is anyone taking this to the next level to determine the actual appropriate/ideal caloric intake or grams per kilogram per month? There are very well established guidelines for ideal human consumption, and for other animals as well, such as dogs, cats, horses, etc. Those animals have been kept by humans for so long that real scientists have had plenty of opportunity to study them thoroughly and determine ideal diets with specific calories per kg. Seems to me that snake keeping is either too new or too niche for scientists to take the time to study this in depth.

I really want to get it right and not over or under feed my bp. I had been feeding "jumbo" rats (i weighed them myself at about 225g each) every "few" weeks (i translated that to 3), but the snake exhibited signs of over feeding, as in, frequent shedding, large poops, and refusal to eat for 2 months after 4 of those feedings. We broke her fast with a "small" rat, at around 90g a week ago, and then another at 90g yesterday. The snake went from 2000g when we got her last oct, up to about 2500g, and now she's back down to about 2000g again, after her fast, which seems to be her comfort zone where she eats best. I definitely don't want to under feed her, since the 90g rats seem so small, but I don't want to overfeed her either.

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Your girl is absolutely fine with 90g a week. I don't even feed my 3100g girl jumbos. The swing in her weight was because she was holding 500g in poop/food in her at any given time, not truly gaining weight. Extremely large rats are also much more dangerous when feeding live (which you may or may not be doing). 90g is borderline small/medium, which is fine for her. Even if there have been studies on caloric needs in BPs (of which I'm not aware), they still would not be specific to YOUR BP, who has shown you what she wants by fasting when she was too full and starting to eat again when the prey went to a more reasonable size and she had had time to digest the jumbos.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

The closest to a "scientific" approach was one done by Brian from BHB last year.

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He did, and the results were VERY interesting, but they were conducted with corn snakes, not ball pythons.

One of the interesting results was that the hatchlings showed a very slight increase in growth rate when their prey was dusted with vitamin powder--the experiment should definitely be repeated many times, in order to determine if that was just an anomaly. (Actually, to really come to any conclusion at all, it will have to be repeated a number of times, you can't really draw any conclusions from one simple trial like this).

Animals fed one slightly larger than normal prey item every 7 days (I believe that was the time frame) showed dramatic growth compared with the animals fed several smaller items more frequently.

If this DOES translate over to ball pythons, it may mean that some of the commonly repeated advice is actually wrong. It may be better to feed a big prey item once a week, and not feed small ones more often...at least, if you want fast growth.

To extrapolate this, the idea that feeding a small rat once a week is better than feeding a large rat once every two weeks may turn out not to be ideal after all. This is definitely worth exploring.

Just keep in mind--a corn snake is not a ball python is not a boa constrictor. They may all have different ideal feeding schedules and requirements.

I think it's something that all of us breeders should be doing more often. Controlled feeding trials will tell us a lot more than guessing or intuition, and fairly often, it does seem as though that's what folks are going by!

I have yet to see the ball python I would feed a 225 gram rat to.

Unfortunately feeding snakes isn't an exact science. The other animals you listed eat a variety of foods that we can balance to equate a "perfectly balanced" diet. Snakes in general eat only rodents so it becomes more a question of how much should that rodent weigh. In the wild they eat when they can and from my observation of my collection it is very much the same. While I offer a rodent a week to my entire collection they make the decision on if they need it to sustain themselves or not. Also keep in mind every BP is as different as every person when it comes to size. You can have full grown females who struggle to break a certain weight while others get to 3500 grams within 4 years or less.

You mentioned your snake would be an on and off feeder on the jumbo rats and that makes total sense. She knew that one every so often would be enough for her. Now with you offering smaller meals she has become a more regular feeder which fits right in line. Don't get overwhelmed with the word "perfect". If your snake looks healthy and sheds in one piece you have won the husbandry battle.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I have yet to see the ball python I would feed a 225 gram rat to.

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If you have a 2,000gram snake then 10% would be a 200 gram rat. If youre saying you wouldnt do that then when should the 10-15% feeding regimen be stopped? (im not calling you out slim, this is more of a general question for anyone)...

personally, and this is in no way scientific, other factors are at play, not just the size and frequency of feedings, the cage/tub sizes, the daily activity of the animal (does it roam the cage a lot, or hunker down?), temps (steady 24 hours or flux every 8-12 hours), + individual quirks, Etc , i do not think there is a solid this is right or wrong way to do it. understanding your animals individuality and how you keep them would be the best place to start out. once you know that that animal and why you do it your way, you can adjust the feeding and other factors to get the results you are hoping to expect.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

I have heard and read a lot of conflicting information about how much to feed a ball python, all from supposed experts. However, the (conflicting) information is always too vague for me. "1 large rat per week." "1 rat slightly smaller in diameter than the snake every few weeks." Since the experts can't agree, is anyone taking this to the next level to determine the actual appropriate/ideal caloric intake or grams per kilogram per month? There are very well established guidelines for ideal human consumption, and for other animals as well, such as dogs, cats, horses, etc. Those animals have been kept by humans for so long that real scientists have had plenty of opportunity to study them thoroughly and determine ideal diets with specific calories per kg. Seems to me that snake keeping is either too new or too niche for scientists to take the time to study this in depth.

I really want to get it right and not over or under feed my bp. I had been feeding "jumbo" rats (i weighed them myself at about 225g each) every "few" weeks (i translated that to 3), but the snake exhibited signs of over feeding, as in, frequent shedding, large poops, and refusal to eat for 2 months after 4 of those feedings. We broke her fast with a "small" rat, at around 90g a week ago, and then another at 90g yesterday. The snake went from 2000g when we got her last oct, up to about 2500g, and now she's back down to about 2000g again, after her fast, which seems to be her comfort zone where she eats best. I definitely don't want to under feed her, since the 90g rats seem so small, but I don't want to overfeed her either.

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I would never feed a 225 rat to a ball python. I am guessing based on the 2500g to 2000g that you weighed your snake after you fed and then at the end of a fast. Otherwise 500 grams is a lot of weight to lose after a 2 month fast. I am not sure why you are so worried about under feeding your BP. At 2000 grams your snake no longer needs large meals to grow. Its an adult and you should cut back on feeding or the snake will get fat. If it were my snake I would be offering 150 gram rats every 10 days, but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I have yet to see the ball python I would feed a 225 gram rat to.

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You need to come by my place then!!!

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

If you have a 2,000gram snake then 10% would be a 200 gram rat. If youre saying you wouldnt do that then when should the 10-15% feeding regimen be stopped? (im not calling you out slim, this is more of a general question for anyone)...

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I would definitely stop the 10% t0 15%. That a great rule to follow while they are growing but once the snake is an adult you can go to 10 or more days between feedings and got down to 5% to 10%. There is no set rule. Is this snake male or female? Are you breeding? Does the snake refuse meals often? You are going to want to feed a breeding male far far less than a breeding female. The male needs to be kept lean and the female needs larger feedings to support eggs but not so fat as to reduce fertility. My advice to you would be get a good scale. Weigh your snake often and then graph it out. If the graph shows a trend toward losing weight then you are underfeeding. Otherwise you are doing just fine.

From day 1 when i get my snakes i feed 10-15% every 7 days pretty religiously. They grow a bit slower but not really noticeably. But yea im thinking that backing off the intervals and doing 10% every 10 days might be better for the adults.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

I would never feed a 225 rat to a ball python. I am guessing based on the 2500g to 2000g that you weighed your snake after you fed and then at the end of a fast. Otherwise 500 grams is a lot of weight to lose after a 2 month fast. I am not sure why you are so worried about under feeding your BP. At 2000 grams your snake no longer needs large meals to grow. Its an adult and you should cut back on feeding or the snake will get fat. If it were my snake I would be offering 150 gram rats every 10 days, but that's just me.

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Several supposed experts told me to think of her as a hollow tube, and to feed the biggest rat that would fit in that tube, so, a rat that is slightly smaller in diameter than the snake. The rats that fit that bill ended up being about 225g each.

I weigh her between feedings, not right after or right before feedings. At her peak she "felt" big, as in, it was noticeable just holding her that she was heavier. Some of the weight at the peak may have been due to retained poop. She shed shortly afterwards, and with the shed came a massive poop. So, I am pretty well convinced that the "experts" who told me to feed slightly smaller diameter rats were wrong. I'm going to stick with the 90-100g rats, every 1-2 weeks

I think the idea to weigh frequently and chart it is great. I will definitely do that and try to keep her right around 2000g which is where she seems healthiest for some reason!

And to clarify, I have 1 female pastel 6 year old, non breeder, pure pet, currently at around 2000g, and no intentions to get anything else. She's the one.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Several supposed experts told me to think of her as a hollow tube, and to feed the biggest rat that would fit in that tube, so, a rat that is slightly smaller in diameter than the snake. The rats that fit that bill ended up being about 225g each.

I weigh her between feedings, not right after or right before feedings. At her peak she "felt" big, as in, it was noticeable just holding her that she was heavier. Some of the weight at the peak may have been due to retained poop. She shed shortly afterwards, and with the shed came a massive poop. So, I am pretty well convinced that the "experts" who told me to feed slightly smaller diameter rats were wrong. I'm going to stick with the 90-100g rats, every 1-2 weeks

I think the idea to weigh frequently and chart it is great. I will definitely do that and try to keep her right around 2000g which is where she seems healthiest for some reason!

And to clarify, I have 1 female pastel 6 year old, non breeder, pure pet, currently at around 2000g, and no intentions to get anything else. She's the one.

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out of curiosity what information were you relying on previously? if I'm not mistaken you had a very similar question not too long ago and were given much the same advice as above. you chose to go in a different direction, and that's entirely your call, but it seems that your current experience contradicts the 'experts' and reinforced the general consensus on this website.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

If you have a 2,000gram snake then 10% would be a 200 gram rat. If youre saying you wouldnt do that then when should the 10-15% feeding regimen be stopped? (im not calling you out slim, this is more of a general question for anyone)...

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I had this same question immediately as well. I was at an expo this weekend trying to predict the growth of my snakes and buying appropriate feeders. Recently I have been feeding my 250-300g snakes 40-60 grams in 2x adult mice. I Bought a bunch of XS rats ~50g ea and a bunch of S rats ~ 60-100g. I almost bought medium rats but was told that that was a substantial size up.


Everything I've read on this site (my main source of knowledge) has indicated 15-20% of avg weight every 3-5 days for growing snakes and 10-15% for adults every 7 days. I was fully anticipating having to feed larger than S rats (60-100g) at around 500 grams.

Is that completely wrong???? I'd really like to see a more comprehensive thread on this, perhaps with shared weight/feeding logs so someone can make a real assessment on enough data to support it.

I have found that feeding multiple smaller meals weekly keeps them eating more consistently than feeding large meals.
2 meals a week equaling about 15% of body weight to growing snakes and 2 meals equaling about 10% of weight for adult snakes.

I never feed jumbos to any ball pythons, especially males but even females only get fed smalls or mediums when they are adults.
Feed them too large and watch them go on crazy month long refusals, not any more...

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have found that feeding multiple smaller meals weekly keeps them eating more consistently than feeding large meals.
2 meals a week equaling about 15% of body weight to growing snakes and 2 meals equaling about 10% of weight for adult snakes.

I never feed jumbos to any ball pythons, especially males but even females only get fed smalls or mediums when they are adults.
Feed them too large and watch them go on crazy month long refusals, not any more...

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x2

The 15% "rule" applies more to hatchlings and up to 500g (snake) or so. My 1400g male gets one 50-60g rat per week. My 3000g female gets the same, with roughly one out of four meals being a medium rat (80-120g).

Edit: The reason everyone sees this "rule" posted so often on this site (IMO) is that the people who are usually asking what to feed their BPs just bought a hatchling from a pet store, show, etc. - Not a full-grown adult.

So my snakes at 300 grams eating 60 gram small rats can essentially remain on this diet indefinitely with the meal being offered even less frequently later on? Maybe my female would accept a larger meal here and there if I'm looking to prep her for breeding?


Mind blown.

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Originally Posted by wwmjkd

out of curiosity what information were you relying on previously? if I'm not mistaken you had a very similar question not too long ago and were given much the same advice as above. you chose to go in a different direction, and that's entirely your call, but it seems that your current experience contradicts the 'experts' and reinforced the general consensus on this website.

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Various sources online, East Bay Vivarium (most people in the bay area refer to them as experts), and this site where many many people said 10% of body weight, even for adults. 10% of 2000-2500g snake range = ~225g rat.

EBV, a well known name in my area, says 1 thing. The breeder I got her from says another thing. A bunch of anonymous people on a forum give varying opinions. Who would you trust? It's just difficult to sort out who is right.

My biggest concern is that there is no consensus among experts. Just look at this very thread! Which is why I was hoping a scientist had studied it more carefully. But it's clear now that hasn't happened, and I am not in a position to make it happen myself. So we're all more or less relying on our own personal experience and observations of our own snakes, with a range of rough guidelines to start from.

Sorry in advance for the wall of tables.

Since we started breeding our own ASFs last year we've been trying to feed our wee ones more often.

1. I'm not drawing any conclusions from the below data since they're all still babies except for Snake #1. He is the only male out of these five and he has been breeding since August/September or so.
   
2. Our methods of record keeping changed several times and some things were not transcribed, but I think there is enough data to get the gist.
   
3. Just about every prey item after April/May is an ASF.
   
4. If it seems like some of them are being fed a lot it is because my wife is a weakling and can't resist their puppy dog eyes.

Snake #1 - Male


Snake #2 - Female


Snake #3 - Female



Snake #4 - Female



Snake #5 - Female

I have a couple of big girls over 3000 grams, and a small rat would be an inadequate snack for them, lol. They eat large rats. Sometimes the 3500 gram girl even gets a jumbo. Have they gone on any mysterious fasts, as a result? nope.

My other adults all get medium rats. Everything over 1000 grams gets medium rats, actually.

Granted, they are breeding snakes. Pet snakes should probably be fed less often.

This is the weight chart I use. Names alone can be confusing.

Pinkies____________3-8g
Fuzzies___________9-19g
Pups_____________20-29g
Weanlings________30-44g
Small____________45-84g
Medium (small)__85-125g
Medium (large)_126-174g
Large__________175-274g
Jumbo__________275-374g
Colossal_______375-474g
Mammoth________475-600g
Monster_________over 600g

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

If you have a 2,000gram snake then 10% would be a 200 gram rat. If youre saying you wouldnt do that then when should the 10-15% feeding regimen be stopped? (im not calling you out slim, this is more of a general question for anyone)...

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I hear what you're saying, and I understand the confusion. At some point a long time ago, I got lazy and quit adding that the 10-15% rule of thumb really only applies to growing juvenile BPs, when I was responding to the "How Much Do I Feed" threads. I just figured that by the time you'd been around BPs long enough to have raised one to adulthood, you would know your animal well enough to know how much to feed it.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

The reason everyone sees this "rule" posted so often on this site (IMO) is that the people who are usually asking what to feed their BPs just bought a hatchling from a pet store, show, etc. - Not a full-grown adult.

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Or in other words, this :number1:

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

You need to come by my place then!!!

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I would love to come by your place sometime!!! I'm sure you don't remember, but I purchased a little Mojo male from you at the 2009 Charlotte Repticon, for my GF. Named him Cupid since it was Valentine's weekend. I no longer have that GF, but she still has the snake and he's still a hot one. I've always been an admirer of your BPs, and hope to own one myself someday.