Bumble bee too small to breed?

So she's about a year and 9 months and took an 6 month fast during winter/ early fall till about 3 weeks ago..(Idk how many months that is:-))
But she is just about 1200+ grams and feeding like its going outta style. She got thicker just over these past few weeks of 4-5 mice a week.
She won't take rats anymore.
And she regulates how many mice she eats all the time. Before she would eat about 3-6 depending on how hungry she felt I guess.

Would you breed her?


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I wouldn't, give her some time to bulk up, then give it a go.

I wouldn't, I keep to a strict number of 1500g

1500g is the 'magic' number that most go for.. Some people will breed females that are lower in weight, but they are usually older. In my opinion, 1200g and not even 2 years old yet, is a bit early. If she was only 1200g and 3+ years old, I would say go for it.

That is my opinion though... I am not an experienced breeder by any means, but I have read a ton of information and this seems to be the 'general' consensus.

I dont follow mythical forum guide lines of 1500g anything under is voo doo.

A healthy feeding 1200g female i would breed, as they will gain and be well over 1600g by time ovulation happens. But since your girl is coming off a fasting period i wouldnt breed her so she can get her nutrition back.


Nothing like having a female fast, eat then breed and possibly slug out from lack of nutrition, or get eggs and they go bad.

I would never breed a female that isn't 1500 grams at MINIMUM, going into the breeding season. On the few occasions I have had females that weight go off feed and wind up lighter, the eggs they produced were tiny and few. The females did not show continued fast growth over the next summer.

1500 grams and 3 years of age should be the goal to shoot for. Some 2 year olds that are well over that weight will do well, too. I wouldn't breed a one year old, that's ridiculous.

There are some photos around now of small/young females that have aborted their follicles, so that's one more thing that might happen as a result of trying to breed a female that isn't ready.

People are impatient, and it's not in the animal's best interests.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I would never breed a female that isn't 1500 grams at MINIMUM, going into the breeding season. On the few occasions I have had females that weight go off feed and wind up lighter, the eggs they produced were tiny and few. The females did not show continued fast growth over the next summer.

1500 grams and 3 years of age should be the goal to shoot for. Some 2 year olds that are well over that weight will do well, too. I wouldn't breed a one year old, that's ridiculous.

There are some photos around now of small/young females that have aborted their follicles, so that's one more thing that might happen as a result of trying to breed a female that isn't ready.

People are impatient, and it's not in the animal's best interests.

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The ops female is 21 months old, by time it would lay would be well over 2 years old. Not sure where you got 1 year old from.

The 1500g 3 year rule is fine and dandy for you to follow but its not a proven fact females must be this or they dont breed. Also not good to push it on others, experience prevails what one individual is comfortable with doing with THEIR snakes.

And breeding small females or young does not cause aborted Ova. This occurrence is very very rare. And the exact cause is unknown as to why females do so, cause some females have done it whos never been bred.


Ive stated this hundreds of times. There's a 6 years old female in my collection, I raised from day one. Shes barely 1400g been that size entire life, and has dropped consistently 5-8 eggs every year since she was 1.5 years old. Females being larger dont ensure better results on clutch size.

Thank you to everyone for their very informative opinions.

I plan on attempting to pair her come august. A little after august last year was when she went on that fast as I recall.

Also she'll be just over 2 years old.
And if she keeps eating the way she is than I wouldn't doubt that she will have a healthy clutch, and still be OK after.

I did find on record
That when I first started pairing my larger female normal to my butter was when she went off feed. So maybe that was her way of saying no, not this season. :-)

But I'm gonna keep tabs on her weight and growth (shedding more often like she used too when she hit 1000grams) will be the sign that she's on the right track.



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Some femlaes will go on fasts at the beginning of pairings. And as follicles begin to grow they pick up eating again.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Some femlaes will go on fasts at the beginning of pairings. And as follicles begin to grow they pick up eating again.

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Yeah someone mentioned also the 1000gram wall that some females hit.

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I wouldn't breed. I also don't adhere to 1500 exclusively. I weigh her, and if she's a decent weight and has been eating well I give it a shot. I generally wait for them to get a bit bigger before breeding, if only to get more eggs per clutch.

Also why are you feeding 5 mice a week instead of 1 or 2 rats? Best to get her switched over soon. Rats are more nutritious and will make her grow faster.

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Originally Posted by apple2

I wouldn't breed. I also don't adhere to 1500 exclusively. I weigh her, and if she's a decent weight and has been eating well I give it a shot. I generally wait for them to get a bit bigger before breeding, if only to get more eggs per clutch.

Also why are you feeding 5 mice a week instead of 1 or 2 rats? Best to get her switched over soon. Rats are more nutritious and will make her grow faster.

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Says who, You?

Mice and rats gram per gram are the same nutrition until actual studies are conducted. Whether the snake is eating mice or rats it dont matter so long its eating. No one here has done exclusive studies to prove one is better than the other, but visual refrence.

Mice are closer related to ASF than rats. Rats arent even a natural food to them as they have distinct smell. Which is why a good portion of Ball pythons dont switch

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Says who, You?

Mice and rats gram per gram are the same nutrition until actual studies are conducted.

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Nutritional information on feeders is readily available, just irrelevant since we don't know the nutritional requirements of snakes.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Whether the snake is eating mice or rats it dont matter so long its eating. No one here has done exclusive studies to prove one is better than the other, but visual refrence.

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This is true.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Mice are closer related to ASF than rats. Rats arent even a natural food to them as they have distinct smell. Which is why a good portion of Ball pythons dont switch

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From what I understand, they aren't in the same genus as either rats or mice. They smell nothing like either one. Rats and mice smell far more alike than either does like an ASF. (ASFs have a strange zoo-like, almost fruity smell that reminds me of fruit bat enclosures).

Out of around 80 animals, I have perhaps 2 that eat only mice. The rest eat rats...however, I should point out that I have more snakes that eat ONLY rats than I do snakes that eat only mice. Judging by the reactions of hatchlings each year, I'd give a coin toss as to whether they will be a mouser or a ratter exclusively. I always have a few animals that will start only on one type of rodent, and stick to it. Mice aren't any more likely to be that rodent, though. I've also started hatchlings on ASFs. None of the ones I started on ASF refused to convert to rats easily.
(This is why I stopped bothering to raise ASFs).

I do agree that snakes on rats tend to put on weight and grow more quickly, but it may be because the rats are proportionally heavier for their girth. An adult mouse and a crawler rat look similar in size, but the crawler is heavier.

As for young females going off feed...I think this is related to hormones, and I've never once had a female that went off feed at the beginning of the breeding season begin eating again before egg laying time, whether she was bred or not. I feel it's best to let the females go through this 'puberty' period without breeding them, as they tend to eat well the following year, and breed well after that.

From all that I've seen, I just cannot believe that breeding females under 1500 grams is healthy for them, or in their best interests at all, and I've seen much to suggest it's definitely not.
Your mileage may vary, but I don't think you're going to find any 1400 gram females laying 13 egg clutches, like the one I got from my big 3500 gram girl.
Nor will you find any female bred at 1200 grams reaching 3500 grams...their growth slows dramatically when they start breeding too young.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Your mileage may vary, but I don't think you're going to find any 1400 gram females laying 13 egg clutches, like the one I got from my big 3500 gram girl.
Nor will you find any female bred at 1200 grams reaching 3500 grams...their growth slows dramatically when they start breeding too young.

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Bigger dont mean bigger clutches all the time. My 1400g normal girl gave me 8 eggs last year where my 2500g mojo female who is 2.5 years old dropped 7 eggs. Age and size plays very little role in the amount of eggs one will produce.

Genetics is where its at if you want large clutches, you hold back the females from a large clutch or buy from a large clutch. As some females will never surpass 1500g. And there's nothing wrong with it at all. There's not that many females out there as it is dropping 10-15 eggs as it is with the average clutch being 6-8 eggs.

I also have a virgin girl that laid last year at 1600g, shes gained that weight back and added 200g, and has recently just ovulated. They continue to grow well for me even when bred young. Ive got girls that laid small who are in the 2000g range now. Never once did it occur to me that breeding a small female will doom them to be small for life, as i wont believe that for one second.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I always have a few animals that will start only on one type of rodent, and stick to it. Mice aren't any more likely to be that rodent, though.

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In my experience it's much easier to get a mouse eater that's eaten a few rats back on mice than it is to get a rat eater that's eaten a few mice back on rats.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

From all that I've seen, I just cannot believe that breeding females under 1500 grams is healthy for them, or in their best interests at all, and I've seen much to suggest it's definitely not.
Your mileage may vary, but I don't think you're going to find any 1400 gram females laying 13 egg clutches, like the one I got from my big 3500 gram girl.
Nor will you find any female bred at 1200 grams reaching 3500 grams...their growth slows dramatically when they start breeding too young.

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I'm going to have to say it depends on the individual. I bred a 3 year old, thick 1,200 gram female last year that gave me a perfect clutch of 4 eggs(I don't particularly mind small clutches). Her recovery after laying was miles ahead of any of my larger females on the same feeding schedule, and she has surpassed a couple of them in size(currently 2,000+ grams). She currently has 7-8 developing follicles...so I would say that if this were to be a continuing trend, she'll have no problem at all getting big and regularly dropping 10+ egg clutches.