Black pastels and cinnamons

So I was potentially looking into buying a pair of black pastels to breed but I hear tell that their super form is known for having some deformities? Like duckbilling and apparently serious spinal problems.
Now, I'm fairly certain this is an issue of a narrow gene pool since if I'm not mistaken, a lot of line breeding went on with the black pastels but from what I read upon further searching, breeding a cinnamon with a black pastel will still give you a decent chance of producing a solid black snake with less of a chance of deformities occurring. Which seems just fine to me but I also read some things about how people didn't want to breed their cinnamons and black pastels together because it will make the resulting offspring browner. This seems kind of ridiculous to me because I've seen super cins and I've seen super black pastels and they honestly don't appear to be any blacker or browner than one or the other in my opinion.
Is it really that common that people want to sacrifice the health of the animals they produce just for appearances because I have a difficult time wrapping my head around that mentality.

Some people say that it doesn't hurt them. It's the same with spiders and caramels. People assume that if they eat, grow, and breed, they are ok. I never buy things that are deformed/mutated, with the exception of color/pattern mutations.

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Originally Posted by MisterKyte

So I was potentially looking into buying a pair of black pastels to breed but I hear tell that their super form is known for having some deformities? Like duckbilling and apparently serious spinal problems.
Now, I'm fairly certain this is an issue of a narrow gene pool since if I'm not mistaken, a lot of line breeding went on with the black pastels but from what I read upon further searching, breeding a cinnamon with a black pastel will still give you a decent chance of producing a solid black snake with less of a chance of deformities occurring. Which seems just fine to me but I also read some things about how people didn't want to breed their cinnamons and black pastels together because it will make the resulting offspring browner. This seems kind of ridiculous to me because I've seen super cins and I've seen super black pastels and they honestly don't appear to be any blacker or browner than one or the other in my opinion.
Is it really that common that people want to sacrifice the health of the animals they produce just for appearances because I have a difficult time wrapping my head around that mentality.

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Super black pastels are darker than super cinnies. Yes, black pastels have been known to have duck billing however I dont believe it is that prevalent. I have two non related black pastels and I will be breeding them together to try for the super form. They are becoming a popular morph and there is much outbreeding with the gene as far as I know. As far as I know duck billing will not affect the health of a snake that exhibits it.

I have heard that the Outback reptiles line of super black pastels are the blackest. They are very black.

I don't think its a common practice to jeopardize the health of an animal for their looks on purpose. Most breeders want both beautiful AND healthy snakes. But I don't find that there is a high percentage of duck billing to occur with the supers.

And I believe duck billing is more cosmetic than an actual hindering deformity.

In my personal opinion, I think that super black pastels are the blackest. But I'm sure there exceptions to both super forms.
And parental lines and looks probably affect supers as well.

I think if it were the result of inbreeding we'd be seeing similar deformities in recessive gened animals more since they basically require quite a bit of line breeding in the early stages of a new mutation to establish any decent number. Dominate and codominate are naturally outcrossed a great deal more since you don't need the components from both parents to reproduce the gene. I believe the super problem with these particular snakes has more to do with the morph than any kind of inbreeding. These are just my deductions from information I've gathered on the web. I'd love to learn that it is in fact only an issue of not enough outcrossing but why do people think black pastels have been inbred so much more than some other, typically healthy BP morphs out there? I plan on working with black pastel and cinnamon in the future but I won't be going for supers with either because I personally don't wish to deal with the head or heart ache that would surely come from increasing my chances of deformities.

The only clutch I've seen with supers was from unrelated cinnamons. One baby had duck bill, a kink, and a curly tail and the other just a little bit of odd snout. I also assumed it doesn't have anything to do with inbreeding to be showing up regularly in something as outred as a co-dominant mutation. However, I think it was TSK who posted that they have had good luck avoiding this problem by breeding black pastel to cinnamon. That was really unexpected to me as it looks like the problems are just a side effect of both mutations so I don't see how the combo would be better than either line by it's self but of course practical experience is more important than what I can imagine.

I've seen no difference in the super. There are, as the op mentioned, black cinnies and brown BP. The last two super cinnies I hatched were jet black.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I've seen no difference in the super. There are, as the op mentioned, black cinnies and brown BP. The last two super cinnies I hatched were jet black.

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I agree. They're the same IMO.

Black pastels are a stronger gene then a cinnie. The cinnies have more duckbilling then the blacks. The super black pastel is alot darker then the super cinnamon. I think the op has the 2 confused

Here we go again......:blahblah:

:bolt::popcorn:

I've always wanted a super black so here goes...

Black pastel "probable" het ghost X 9 egg laying female black pastel,
both outback reptiles line of black pastel...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_2004.jpg

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Black pastels are a stronger gene then a cinnie. The cinnies have more duckbilling then the blacks. The super black pastel is alot darker then the super cinnamon. I think the op has the 2 confused

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Subjective. As I mentioned, the last two super cinnies were jet black. Neither had a hint of duckbilling. None of the cinny silver bullets or super pewters have a hint of duckbilling. Subjective.

Subjective would be compairing 2 of the same exact morphs. Cinnies and blacks are 2 different morphs. Subjective would also be based on oppinion. The facts of the 2 are the black pastel is a stronger gene. Now i have seen some pretty black super cinnies for sure. And im not arguing that at all. Now if ya like super blacks over super cinnies or vice versa then that would be subjective. I wasnt arguing that just simply stating the black gene is a stronger gene to work with then the cinny. I have some cinny stuff in the collection but ive sold most of it. I will still keep the sterlings and super cinny het pieds but i replaced the other cinny stuff with black stuff and vanilla black pastel stuff really out of preference not out of any stupid fears about a little duckbilling or tail kinking.

Is this a black pastel or a cinnamon?
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/x...n/b96ff755.png

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Originally Posted by Kev.K

Is this a black pastel or a cinnamon?
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/x...n/b96ff755.png

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black pastel. <- edited answer =p

I personally think the best looking cinny is different than the best looking black pastel.. granted, they make similar looking combos, i think the good black pastels will have a darker look.. cinnys are a sweet looking BROWN.. like cinnamon lol... black pastels should be jet... hence the names.. doesn't matter if they make the same combos.. call them different LINES bred for different qualities instead of different morphs if you must.

I think cinnys have to have nice black backs, high gold/brown coloration, and nice floating alien heads.

I think black pastels should have squiggly lines within the alien head pattern. I also think the alien heads shouldn't be floating.. and it should be a much darker brown - less gold colored snake. I also like the black pastels with the gold striping on their backs that really bring out the rich blacks.

my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by Kev.K

Is this a black pastel or a cinnamon?
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/x...n/b96ff755.png

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I'm going to say cinny. It doesn't have the trade mark squiggles in the alien heads of the black pastels.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Subjective would be compairing 2 of the same exact morphs. Cinnies and blacks are 2 different morphs. Subjective would also be based on oppinion. The facts of the 2 are the black pastel is a stronger gene. Now i have seen some pretty black super cinnies for sure. And im not arguing that at all. Now if ya like super blacks over super cinnies or vice versa then that would be subjective. I wasnt arguing that just simply stating the black gene is a stronger gene to work with then the cinny. I have some cinny stuff in the collection but ive sold most of it. I will still keep the sterlings and super cinny het pieds but i replaced the other cinny stuff with black stuff and vanilla black pastel stuff really out of preference not out of any stupid fears about a little duckbilling or tail kinking.

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Well said :clap:
And nothing against you Brandon...got no beef with you. Even though you think Cinnys and Blacks are the same ...:confuse:......silly boy...:rofl:

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Originally Posted by Kev.K

Is this a black pastel or a cinnamon?
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/x...n/b96ff755.png

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Low grade Black......

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I'm going to say cinny. It doesn't have the trade mark squiggles in the alien heads of the black pastels.

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I would have to agree with you.

The only problem is that there's some cinnys/black pastels that are being sold as the opposite of what it best represents so it creates even more confusion.. Here's a great thread of what everyone should do LOL:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...y-black-pastel

She agrees with the majority saying it best represents a black pastel than a cinny.. so she will label it as such :gj:. Everyone should do this :mad: lolol. or whatevers =p. to each their own :D

Define "stronger"? Do you mean more extreme (maybe more black) or less likely to have deformities?

I thought it was the first two black pastels (Gulf Coast?) that at the time were reported to be pretty badly deformed. But then again I know I've seen a deformed supper cinnamon. I still wonder with both this and the caramel kinking if why some breeders report it as rare and some common has more to do with accidently different environments than different collection genetics (assuming both morphs always have the tendency as part of the mutation preventing it from being bred out).

Offering a snake for sale as a particular morph, because it looks like said morph is dishonest and unethical. I think a seller should know the genetics of a snake they are selling, and truthfully and simply state what the facts are.

I personally only deal with Black pastels and I prefer them to cinnis. That being said there are some stunning cinni combos out there (yes yours Brandon) but I would be vvvvveeeerrrryyyy angry if someone tried to sell me a cinni as a Black pastel simply because it looked more like a Black Pastel. However I wouldn't buy a cinni looking Black pastel and I wouldn't buy a BP looking cinni if I were into them. This is one morph that I am even more particular about getting exactly what I want, and what I want in a BP is deep blacks, more orange then brown in pattern, and most importantly lots of pattern blending tweaking and shifting. The draw to me is more the pattern mutation and color comes second. I love how my Black Pewterblast has a washed look, but you can make out a connect the dot looking blended pattern of a Black Pastel. His mother has more patterns blurred or blended together then not, and is almost the perfect example of what a Black pastel should look like. I can never get pics to work here so if you want to see them check out KandK_Pythons on Facebook.

I guess that photo is a cinni and in my opinion a poor-mid level example (the only redeaming factor is the almost near perfect pattern color for a cinni). If I am wrong then it is a veryyyyyyyy low grade BP and one I wouldn't even consider buying.

Why not get a cinny and a black pastel and breed them together?

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Define "stronger"? Do you mean more extreme (maybe more black) or less likely to have deformities?

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I'm curious about this as well...especially how it is stated as fact. From what I've seen, neither are prone to kinking or duckbilling over the other.

Because they are different morphs they both bring something different to the table. Brandons offspring of the super cinny to super pastel is straight up sick lookin. And when i say sick i mean smokin. If ya havent seen it check out his facebook page. Now to clarify what i said about blacks being a stronger gene i mean the they are less likely to throw duckbills and other minor deformities. Now i say this based on the amount of them i have produced personally and from what ive seen produced in other guys camps. But because these are 2 different morphs that do similar things it comes down to personal preference when working with them. Either way they are both in my mind a staple for anyone who are working with animals in numbers.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Now i say this based on the amount of them i have produced personally and from what ive seen produced in other guys camps.

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Can you attach any numbers or percentages to this statement please so I can adjust my secondhand knowledge(firsthand to you obviously) accordingly.

Numbers of babies ive produced of blacks and cinnies? I can take a stab at it. I would say probablly around 90 over the past few years. I am expecting 7 or 8 clutches of black stuff this year and hopefully 6 clutches of sterling stuff. Now as the numbers are small its enough to base an oppinion on experience with them

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Originally Posted by Kev.K

Is this a black pastel or a cinnamon?
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/x...n/b96ff755.png

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This is a cinnamon. I think the responses prove there isn't much,(if any) difference.

Well you made me a believer. Just kidding. You can say what you want they are 2 different morphs. They have 2 different looking supers and do 2 different things in combos. As they are close they are not the same. You pic just proves its not a good looking example of a cinnie. Sorry

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Originally Posted by Kev.K

This is a cinnamon. I think the responses prove there isn't much,(if any) difference.

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I think there is a difference between the two. Cinnys have more fading and Black Pastels have their trade mark squiggles.
You got only 1 person who was really sure it was a Black Pastel.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Numbers of babies ive produced of blacks and cinnies? I can take a stab at it. I would say probablly around 90 over the past few years. I am expecting 7 or 8 clutches of black stuff this year and hopefully 6 clutches of sterling stuff. Now as the numbers are small its enough to base an oppinion on experience with them

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Holy cow, that's alot of super black/cinnamon pastels. How many of those had deformities?

[QUOTE=John1982;1767739]Holy cow, that's alot of super black/cinnamon pastels. How many of those had deformities?[/QUOTE

No real deformities besides a few duckbills and maybe a curly tail or 2 but no extreme kinkers or anything like that. And that was with the cinny stuff. The black stuff didnt have any issues. Im not saying it doesnt happen but i didnt see it. Also lines have alot to do with it i believe. I was actualky going to go down and take a pic of one of my acr vanilla black males when i opened the tub to find him doing work.
[IMG]http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...1/IMAG0388.jpg[/IMG]

I don't suppose you got a picture of a pile 'o supers handy? It'd be a pretty darn cool thing to see, also wouldn't mind seeing how they differ in darkness from one to the next. Thanks for the replies, I definitely want to work with both black pastel and cinnamon pastel in the future but still think I'll avoid supers(just too many cool combos out there without having to hit homozygous on either imo).

I'm shooting for a super black pewter next year, maybe with pin thrown in. If you make sure there is diversity in your lines, I think you should be able to avoid having consistant issues with deformities.

As to your photo proving there is no difference, I must disagree. All it proved is that there are sub par versions of cinnis, but we know that about every morph. I called it right, and aside from a few oddball examples of both morphs, I can pick out which is which 99% of the time.