wobble

What does it mean when a snake has "Wobble?" I saw someone post a snake in the Ball Python classifieds on Facebook and it says it has wobble. Just wondering what it was. They are selling the snake, who I think is really pretty and should be sold for much more, for like $75 plus shipping...

Wobble refers to the spider morph ball python.
Some cases in the Woma ball python morph also.

But more prodominatly in the spider gene
It refers to when the snake is excited or some times just always
The head wobbles while its exploring or feeding. Also has a tendency to not turn itself right side up when flipped upside down
Also cork screws when its looking around. Like its head starts looking up, the. Sideways, until its completely upside down.
But there are severities such as my bumble bee ball python. It has the spider gene and has almost no wobble. But she does cork screw.
When she is exploring while I'm holding her, she will begin to turn upside down from head to lower neck

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

Usually there head shakes a little, and usually just when they're excited and/or feeding. There are extreme cases though, where they corkscrew uncontrollably and can't seem to control most of their head movements.

Some ball pythons, most especially the spider morphs, have a 'disorder' that makes them not be able to control their neck exactly right. They shake a bit like a palsy in the mild form, or even twist around and flop over in the more severe form.

It's considered by many to be VERY undesirable even in the mild form, but some people consider it merely an aspect of the spider gene.

Severe cases might be nearly unable to strike prey, and will almost look as if they have end-stage IBD. They will turn their heads upside side and corkscrew about.

If it's a mild wobble, the snake probably looks like a person who has palsy and the head will shake and "wobble" sort of like a drunk who hasn't passed out quite yet.

There are a few morphs that have a neurological disorder that causes them to have issues with motor control and balance (kind of like vertigo in people)

The best know morph that is know to have wobble is the spider.

99% of the time the wobble doesn't cause any actual problems. The snake doesn't seem to mind.

In very rare cases (never seen a 100% confirmed case) where the wobble is so bad that the snake has issues eating.

Overall I wouldn't let the wobble issue keep you away from a great morph like the spider, but I also wouldn't get one that is labeled as such.

Here is a video of a Ball Python with a "wobble".

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...58vxt0AU&gl=US

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Originally Posted by Adam Chandler

Here is a video of a Ball Python with a "wobble".

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...58vxt0AU&gl=US

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It didn't show up. Just a bunch of random videos not about ball pythons. =/

Thanks everyone that has really helped. Poor little snakes. I feel bad for the ones who have wobble. Now I know what it is though.

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Originally Posted by AmysAnimals

It didn't show up. Just a bunch of random videos not about ball pythons. =/

Thanks everyone that has really helped. Poor little snakes. I feel bad for the ones who have wobble. Now I know what it is though.

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here's one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGy4g1qJdpo

That is also a pretty bad wobble...

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Originally Posted by AmysAnimals

It didn't show up. Just a bunch of random videos not about ball pythons. =/

Thanks everyone that has really helped. Poor little snakes. I feel bad for the ones who have wobble. Now I know what it is though.

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Opps, my bad. I posted from my iPad so youtube gave the mobile URL.

Here is the video I tried to post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlX58vxt0AU

Almost all BP's with the Spider gene wobble to some degree. I don't feel bad for them because I really don't think it causes them any discomfort.

With BP's if anything is bothering them they immediately stop eating. All of my Spider morphs, even the wobblers, eat well.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

here's one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGy4g1qJdpo

That is also a pretty bad wobble...

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Poor baby :tears:

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Originally Posted by Adam Chandler

Opps, my bad. I posted from my iPad so youtube gave the mobile URL.

Here is the video I tried to post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlX58vxt0AU

Almost all BP's with the Spider gene wobble to some degree. I don't feel bad for them because I really don't think it causes them any discomfort.

With BP's if anything is bothering them they immediately stop eating. All of my Spider morphs, even the wobblers, eat well.

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That one is bad to... I'm getting a spider come March (if out money doesn't get ate up by bad luck.. -_-;) And this worries me.... I love my snakes BUT this whole things makes me feel bad.. I know most of them are okay but some.. it just seems like they have IBD

Those wobbles are so sad. =(

I'm going to jump on my soap box for a moment... Why do people continue to breed these animals?!?!? So what if it doesn't seem to "bother" them! That is not "normal" and I feel horrible for these snakes. :mad: :tears:

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Originally Posted by WifeOfSlasher

I'm going to jump on my soap box for a moment... Why do people continue to breed these animals?!?!? So what if it doesn't seem to "bother" them! That is not "normal" and I feel horrible for these snakes. :mad: :tears:

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So...even though the animals are happy and healthy they shouldn't be bred since they sometimes move their head in a strange way?

Well, if that is your opinion than that's fine.

However I will continue to include the Spider gene in my breeding projects.

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Originally Posted by AmysAnimals

What does it mean when a snake has "Wobble?" I saw someone post a snake in the Ball Python classifieds on Facebook and it says it has wobble. Just wondering what it was. They are selling the snake, who I think is really pretty and should be sold for much more, for like $75 plus shipping...

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The snake you're speaking of is mine. He's a high white spider and priced at wholeale because I just dont need him and would like to move him. Retail I've seen them go for as much as $130 but I'd rather move him out to someone who could use him than wait a year to sell him. He has a mild to moderate wobble when he's stressed or unhappy. I feel as a breeder it is my responsibility to inform potential buyers of any traits, desireable or undesireable, when posting an animal up for sale.

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

The snake you're speaking of is mine. He's a high white spider and priced at wholeale because I just dont need him and would like to move him. Retail I've seen them go for as much as $130 but I'd rather move him out to someone who could use him than wait a year to sell him. He has a mild to moderate wobble when he's stressed or unhappy. I feel as a breeder it is my responsibility to inform potential buyers of any traits, desireable or undesireable, when posting an animal up for sale.

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I think he is gorgeous I am just afraid to purchase an animal that has something wrong with it such as the wobble. I hope you can find some one who is really serious about purchasing him. =) I understand the need to move him though.

I see nothing wrong with the spider gene/wobble. They all eat ( well atleast mine and many others I have heard say ) extremely well, better than most my other bps, they grow, the breed, they are like all my other bps in my racks, they just have a quirky trait of a funky head movement. Some wobbles are hardly noticeable, while there are those cases where it is extreme. But, from my understanding, they all eat, grow, breed all the same.

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Originally Posted by WifeOfSlasher

I'm going to jump on my soap box for a moment... Why do people continue to breed these animals?!?!? So what if it doesn't seem to "bother" them! That is not "normal" and I feel horrible for these snakes. :mad: :tears:

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The only real reason is lack of self control, or not caring whether they breed animals naturally or not.
Enigma leopard geckos have a similar problem. I am against breeding any animals with problems, no matter how minor. Altering the colors/patterns is enough. People don't need to be messing with how the animals' brains function.
I 'argued my point' against breeding animals with problems for 8+ pages on this forum. The weird thing is that it seems more apparent/obvious to the people that AREN'T into reptiles, not to breed animals with problems. The ones with 'years of experience' usually make excuses for breeding them because they like the pattern of the morph, even when they know it's wrong.

Some people go as far as to say that they are worried about getting one, but are getting one anyways.

There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with him. He is just a typical spider. With that gene most likely comes a wobble. It's not a horrible thing, its just part of the gene. Like how Golden Retreivers are prone to cancer and Bulldogs are prone to skin issues and obesity, Spiders are prone to wobble. They make some awesome morphs and 99.9% of them eat, drink, and shed just like any other ball.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

The only real reason is lack of self control, or not caring whether they breed animals naturally or not.
Enigma leopard geckos have a similar problem. I am against breeding any animals with problems, no matter how minor. Altering the colors/patterns is enough. People don't need to be messing with how the animals' brains function.
I 'argued my point' against breeding animals with problems for 8+ pages on this forum. The weird thing is that it seems more apparent/obvious to the people that AREN'T into reptiles, not to breed animals with problems. The ones with 'years of experience' usually make excuses for breeding them because they like the pattern of the morph, even when they know it's wrong.

Some people go as far as to say that they are worried about getting one, but are getting one anyways.

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I'm not here to get into any argument or anything, but I think a few things you said here were a tad.......ignorant. Nuff said

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Originally Posted by WifeOfSlasher

I'm going to jump on my soap box for a moment... Why do people continue to breed these animals?!?!? So what if it doesn't seem to "bother" them! That is not "normal" and I feel horrible for these snakes. :mad: :tears:

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Are you saying stop breeding spiders all together. That would be a huge mistake IMO. A bad wobbler can produce a very very mild wobble and vice versa. So it's not like w could jus brew it out of em. Spider combos are amazing IMO. I would be way sadder to never be able to see a spider ever again. Also the wobble increases their personality. My spider is the best snake to handle our of my collection. He acts more like a boa. Very inquisitive and loves exploring. Everyone needs a spider in their collection. If not for breeding with, for enjoyment as part of the family.

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Originally Posted by WifeOfSlasher

I'm going to jump on my soap box for a moment... Why do people continue to breed these animals?!?!? So what if it doesn't seem to "bother" them! That is not "normal" and I feel horrible for these snakes. :mad: :tears:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

The only real reason is lack of self control, or not caring whether they breed animals naturally or not.
Enigma leopard geckos have a similar problem. I am against breeding any animals with problems, no matter how minor. Altering the colors/patterns is enough. People don't need to be messing with how the animals' brains function.
I 'argued my point' against breeding animals with problems for 8+ pages on this forum. The weird thing is that it seems more apparent/obvious to the people that AREN'T into reptiles, not to breed animals with problems. The ones with 'years of experience' usually make excuses for breeding them because they like the pattern of the morph, even when they know it's wrong.

Some people go as far as to say that they are worried about getting one, but are getting one anyways.

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Would you discourage humans with genetic "deficiencies" from breeding?

As far as spiders go, they are what they are...if you don't think they should be bred, deal with it, because they will be anyway. They wobble, not a huge deal really. They eat, they drink, they breed all just fine. Some wobbles are way out there, some barely noticeable.

I'll even turn this up a notch and talk caramel albinos. Sure, kinking is an issue, but I'm sure kinked animals can be bred and produce fine babies while fine examples would produce kinked babies(I, for the record, do not have caramel albinos in my collection). Someone could have bred and still be breeding kinked caramel albinos, selling off the non-kinked offspring, and no one would be the wiser...it just so happens that breeding kinked animals is such a taboo subject.

Point being, our animals are what they are...some love them and will always breed them, others think it's not right. Whether the issue be kinking, duck-billing, wobbling, or females not breeding(:O), these mutations are perfectly capable of living full, normal lives.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Would you discourage humans with genetic "deficiencies" from breeding?

As far as spiders go, they are what they are...if you don't think they should be bred, deal with it, because they will be anyway. They wobble, not a huge deal really. They eat, they drink, they breed all just fine. Some wobbles are way out there, some barely noticeable.

I'll even turn this up a notch and talk caramel albinos. Sure, kinking is an issue, but I'm sure kinked animals can be bred and produce fine babies while fine examples would produce kinked babies(I, for the record, do not have caramel albinos in my collection). Someone could have bred and still be breeding kinked caramel albinos, selling off the non-kinked offspring, and no one would be the wiser...it just so happens that breeding kinked animals is such a taboo subject.

Point being, our animals are what they are...some love them and will always breed them, others think it's not right. Whether the issue be kinking, duck-billing, wobbling, or females not breeding(:O), these mutations are perfectly capable of living full, normal lives.

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Amen brother!

i think to each there own. If the wobble is not for you stay away from them if it doesn't bother you go for it. spiders do make some of the nicest combos for sure

Initially I was concerned about wobble, but liked spiders and bumble bees. You can search for lots of videos on you tube. There are more extreme cases. My bumble bee when we first got her as a hatchling would "bobble" her head when exploring. Also the first few feeds she would bobble and miss on the first strike. But now I don't see it anymore. I think when they are stressed or excited it comes out more. Like others have said, don't let that stop you from getting something with the spider gene. On the flip side, I would probably not buy one someone is pointing out the wobble on, as it may be one of the extreme cases.

i have a spider that has a very slight wobble but when i got her as a hachling it was more noticeable but she fed fine, now, she feeds every time (not missed a meal in just over a year that iv had her) and i don't see her wobble. she eats, poo's and sheds fine, 1 of my best snakes for handling, my kids love her........ its just something that's part of what the spider morph is, I'm happy with her and she seems "happy" in her self so I'm happy all round :D

In just a matter of a year the new generation of herpers is sounding rather "peta-esqu" in so many ways. I can see why we lost soooo many veterans...

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

In just a matter of a year the new generation of herpers is sounding rather "peta-esqu" in so many ways. I can see why we lost soooo many veterans...

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Better yet... does this NEED to turn into another "Should we breed spiders thread" In truth if the animal is in no pain does it matter? IT's not as bad as people letting cats and dogs live with 1 to 2 legs... In the end, what someone does is there own choice, the snakes are in no pain so it really shouldn't matter, I do agree, some of the "bad" wobbles make me sad, but most wobble aren't that bad....

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

The only real reason is lack of self control, or not caring whether they breed animals naturally or not.
Enigma leopard geckos have a similar problem. I am against breeding any animals with problems, no matter how minor. Altering the colors/patterns is enough. People don't need to be messing with how the animals' brains function.
I 'argued my point' against breeding animals with problems for 8+ pages on this forum. The weird thing is that it seems more apparent/obvious to the people that AREN'T into reptiles, not to breed animals with problems. The ones with 'years of experience' usually make excuses for breeding them because they like the pattern of the morph, even when they know it's wrong.

Some people go as far as to say that they are worried about getting one, but are getting one anyways.

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Here we go again looking down on people who chose to work with Spiders just like you did in that 8 long pages thread, sound like a broken record don't you think :rolleyes:

People who are knowledgeable hence those who work with those animals (that excludes you ;)) don't make excuses or lie like you have insinuated in the past. :mad:

Your argument was and is still founded on YOUR belief that spiders do not have any quality of life which as you already know is totally false (Oh I forgot you do not know since you do not have hands on experience with spiders :rolleyes:)

Anyway the bottom line is that Spiders are not for everyone and a buyer should do some research prior to buy a specific animal and decide for themselves if the animal is a fit for them or not.

Remember spiders all wobble to a degree this does not mean they are all train wrecks without quality of life like some like to make it sound to be :gj:, in most cases it's hardly noticeable and in no way affect their life.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

Better yet... does this NEED to turn into another "Should we breed spiders thread" In truth if the animal is in no pain does it matter? IT's not as bad as people letting cats and dogs live with 1 to 2 legs... In the end, what someone does is there own choice, the snakes are in no pain so it really shouldn't matter, I do agree, some of the "bad" wobbles make me sad, but most wobble aren't that bad....

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I agree.. I love bees and every one I've ever dealt with barely had a noticeable wobble. It's the noticeable "corkscrew" I don't like.

I haven't read the 8+ page rant thread that people are referring to, and I'm not trying to turn this into another one, but I have a few points to make ...

First, though many people may not like it, Genetics Breeder raises an excellent point -- to most of those "outside" the ball python industry that I've talked to, the continued propagation of spider balls is somewhat ... Questionable, at best. I'm not talking about average Joes who don't care about animals; I'm talking about reptile or animal people (eg, veterinarians) that aren't directly involved in the "ball python" craze. I have already said it in another thread -- to those who are directly involved in an industry and encounter something every day, it becomes routine and acceptable, even if it maybe shouldn't be. (English Bulldogs and their myriad health problems are actually a great example, IMO.) The responses of the uninitiated can sometimes make us think twice about the things we take for granted, and I don't think that's a bad thing, regardless of the eventual conclusion we come to.

Second: Foschi, though I respect your opinion completely, I think it's a bit disturbing to automatically label anyone who has animal welfare concerns as PETA-esque. PETA and HSUS are opposed to all animal breeding, for any reason, period. Some of the arguments they make include the assertion that breeders don't care about animal welfare, because they continue to propagate animals with "defects" (particularly dogs). While I am not saying here that I think that we all need to stop all our spider projects cold turkey, I do think it's important to at least field the concerns of others within our community, because shunning them and labeling them as "Peta people" just feeds and reinforces the stereotypes that those organizations like to foist on us.

I mean, there are a lot of debatable things in animal husbandry ... To turn the tables around, think about how you all respond when someone comes on and starts talking about their two ball pythons that have lived happily together (in the same cage) for fifteen years ..! :O Everyone would jump him as providing poor husbandry and encourage him to separate the animals, even if they had been living together in perfect health for that long. (Note that I am NOT suggesting that people should routinely keep two pythons together -- just raising a point that a lot of things aren't so black and white, even if the community as a whole has apparently reached its consensus ...)

I made a poll awhile back to try and get a sense of what this particular community (BP.net) thinks about spiders and other morphs with "issues" (I feel as though I have seen more outcry against spiders here than anywhere else). It looks like about 25% of people will not work with them; the remaining 75% will. That's a pretty big majority that are okay with them.

One thing I was hoping to get at with that poll, which never really came up, was whether those who have a spider (and are okay with breeding them) got one before or after they knew about the wobble. One thing I have wondered is if more people would stay away if they knew about the issue before seeing a spider. I can think of two scenarios in which someone may get a spider (before knowing much about the wobble) and decide to breed it even after finding out about it: one is if they get one and the animal has no wobble at all, or a barely detectable one, and they decide based on that that the morph is really quite healthy and cannot see a reason not to propagate it. (This is, of course, the positive spider argument -- that they seem to thrive in captivity, and it's one I wouldn't argue with for a moment.)

The other, more disturbing scenario is that someone may get a spider with a moderate to severe wobble, but because the animal seems to thrive and because of the encouragement of the community, they convince themselves that it isn't really all that bad (even if the wobble does bother them on some level). I don't honestly know how many people who propagate spiders fall into category one or two (or, of course, three; that is, those who have always known about the wobble and made an informed decision to work with them anyway). I still have a few spiders of my own -- one who I will now never breed as her "wobble" has become disturbing to me; the other two who are still in rotation -- and I really vacillate about which category I currently fall in. I can honestly see both sides of the debate, and I think it is something worth keeping on the table (in a polite fashion, of course :) ).

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I haven't read the 8+ page rant thread that people are referring to, and I'm not trying to turn this into another one, but I have a few points to make ...

First, though many people may not like it, Genetics Breeder raises an excellent point -- to most of those "outside" the ball python industry that I've talked to, the continued propagation of spider balls is somewhat ... Questionable, at best. I'm not talking about average Joes who don't care about animals; I'm talking about reptile or animal people (eg, veterinarians) that aren't directly involved in the "ball python" craze. I have already said it in another thread -- to those who are directly involved in an industry and encounter something every day, it becomes routine and acceptable, even if it maybe shouldn't be. (English Bulldogs and their myriad health problems are actually a great example, IMO.) The responses of the uninitiated can sometimes make us think twice about the things we take for granted, and I don't think that's a bad thing, regardless of the eventual conclusion we come to.

Second: Foschi, though I respect your opinion completely, I think it's a bit disturbing to automatically label anyone who has animal welfare concerns as PETA-esque. PETA and HSUS are opposed to all animal breeding, for any reason, period. Some of the arguments they make include the assertion that breeders don't care about animal welfare, because they continue to propagate animals with "defects" (particularly dogs). While I am not saying here that I think that we all need to stop all our spider projects cold turkey, I do think it's important to at least field the concerns of others within our community, because shunning them and labeling them as "Peta people" just feeds and reinforces the stereotypes that those organizations like to foist on us.

I mean, there are a lot of debatable things in animal husbandry ... To turn the tables around, think about how you all respond when someone comes on and starts talking about their two ball pythons that have lived happily together (in the same cage) for fifteen years ..! :O Everyone would jump him as providing poor husbandry and encourage him to separate the animals, even if they had been living together in perfect health for that long. (Note that I am NOT suggesting that people should routinely keep two pythons together -- just raising a point that a lot of things aren't so black and white, even if the community as a whole has apparently reached its consensus ...)

I made a poll awhile back to try and get a sense of what this particular community (BP.net) thinks about spiders and other morphs with "issues" (I feel as though I have seen more outcry against spiders here than anywhere else). It looks like about 25% of people will not work with them; the remaining 75% will. That's a pretty big majority that are okay with them.

One thing I was hoping to get at with that poll, which never really came up, was whether those who have a spider (and are okay with breeding them) got one before or after they knew about the wobble. One thing I have wondered is if more people would stay away if they knew about the issue before seeing a spider. I can think of two scenarios in which someone may get a spider (before knowing much about the wobble) and decide to breed it even after finding out about it: one is if they get one and the animal has no wobble at all, or a barely detectable one, and they decide based on that that the morph is really quite healthy and cannot see a reason not to propagate it. (This is, of course, the positive spider argument -- that they seem to thrive in captivity, and it's one I wouldn't argue with for a moment.)

The other, more disturbing scenario is that someone may get a spider with a moderate to severe wobble, but because the animal seems to thrive and because of the encouragement of the community, they convince themselves that it isn't really all that bad (even if the wobble does bother them on some level). I don't honestly know how many people who propagate spiders fall into category one or two (or, of course, three; that is, those who have always known about the wobble and made an informed decision to work with them anyway). I still have a few spiders of my own -- one who I will now never breed as her "wobble" has become disturbing to me; the other two who are still in rotation -- and I really vacillate about which category I currently fall in. I can honestly see both sides of the debate, and I think it is something worth keeping on the table (in a polite fashion, of course :) ).

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Im going to assume you know that spiders who have severe wobbles can give us very un-noticeable wobblers. Also if they can breed, why shouldn't they. Take the drummer of def leopard. With one arm you really shouldn't drum because you have a quality that would seem unfit to the rest of the world. Did that stop him, HECK NO! He is an amazing drummer and to someone who doesn't know he has one arm, you wouldn't be able to tell by listening to the music. Most wobbley spiders breed all the same even though they have an undesirable quality, and produce amazing babies. I hate these threads because I love my spiders and they get a bad rep for no good reason.

People don't know if it 'hurts' them or not. They just say that 'if they eat and breed they aren't stressed so they must be fine'.
If an animal has problems their whole life, they obviously would be used to it after a while.

People make some pretty weird/almost interesting excuses or reasons to breed them, instead of just admitting that they wish they didn't have problems or shouldn't be breeding them.
Like I said with the enigma leopard geckos, people say a variety of different excuses.

trying to come up with an excuse that makes sense-
"It gives them personality"

just completely lying about the ones they have or that exhist-
"People ARE breeding them out of it. My uncle's dad's neighbor's friend's friend's kids dog's owner, in their hut in a swamp, made a lineage of spiders without ANY defects!"

"They eat, breed, and grow the same" (showing what the person cares about)

the kind of person that admits they're wrong/doesn't care about the animals-"I'll keep spiders. I know it's wrong, and I don't care what you do."

or something irrelevant and completely oppinionated-"the spiders have ALL the best combination morphs."

or like the original reason I said, lack of self control/impulse buying-"look at what the spider gene has done! How could we live without it?" (obviously not remembering the time before ANY morphs were bred.)

or, like someone above said, just trying to cover up for it after they bought it not knowing-
"Mine doesn't have extreme problems. You have no proof of the problems ever being in a severe form.

one of the weirdest/most exaggerative-
"They got the first spider out of the wild and it's a dominant trait. If they hadn't removed it, there would be a whole colony in the wild!"

With all the other non-problematic morphs, nobody has a good reason. Try thinking of before the albino ball python. People wouldn't have imagined a spider, or any other morph, even after you described it to them.
That's why it should be so easy not to buy animals with problems. Just pretend it's not there. People obviously have a very hard time doing that, and it's bad. It really shows when people buy a baby of a huge snake or fish, planning to sell it after it gets too big, then after not being able to sell it, release it into the wild.
I know it's not the same exact situation, but they are both examples of impulse buying.

That video is a perfect example