An Idea to Let FWS Know How We Really Feel.

I have a notion on how to make our displeasure felt if this ban is added on the date they have specified, and goes into effect.

This is the application form that one would need to fill out in order to receive a permit to transport injurious wildlife.
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-42.pdf

My suggestion would be that anyone remotely wishing to transport one of the animals between States, for any reason, fill out and submit the form. Even if you just want to take your pet Burm for a picnic in a neighboring State. Every time. It will be denied, but they sincerely deserve to have to process it. If you like this idea, spread the word. I would like to see them with a stack of paperwork on their desk so tall, it becomes impossible to move anything legally, because they can't find the request forms from actual zoos. This may seem unfair to 'legitmate' institutions, but their complaints will only help us get the ban repealed. None of this has been fair to anyone, after all. FWS deserves far worse than a stack of daily paperwork reaching to the ceiling, but it is most certainly something that will ensure they will never forget how many people have been hurt.

If there wasn't a fee associated with it I would think the idea might work. If you look at section E there is a min of $25 processing fee. My guess is anyone sending these in without an attached form of payment would be automatically rejected without everything being read. I don't have the money to keep sending these FWS to keep them swamped in paper work. :(

Aw, I didn't see the fee...that's too bad.

Oh, well. :P It was such a pretty image, too.

it is a way for breeders to stay in business, though heavily limited

That permit is limited to zoo's, museums, educational organizations ect..... It does not apply to breeders. If you actually look at the application it has boxes to check for zoo, museum, educational , medical or something of the sort..

I wonder what it takes to get oneself certified as an 'educational institution'?

We need big names to endorse the fight. We have some in the industry. One name that comes to mind is kerry king from slayer. Anyone that has a big following that can drum up support is what we need

The problem with getting someone from a band named "Slayer" is that it won't reach the most critical people we need to reach.

I saw a picture of Betty White holding a snake. She would be a perfect spokeswoman for our cause, if she believes in it.

My mother and grandmothers wouldn't take the time to listen to Kerry King from Slayer, or any other tattooed, rough looking guy talk about snakes. However, put funny, adorable Betty White on camera talking about how amazing these creatures are, and it will reach so many more people.

A big rough, tattooed guy holding a snake won't help our image with the general public. A lovable elderly woman holding the same snake with a big smile on her face can definitely change some perspectives. It probably won't cause people to get over irrational fears of them, but they might think, "okay, they still aren't for me, but I guess they're not so bad after all."

The problem with using Betty White as a spokes person is that she is a huge HSUS supporter. She did support PETA at one point but last I heard she no longer supports that cause.

donna, don't you EVER research the ideas you throw out?

Why would anyone want to have that information out there if they didn't have to?

You go right ahead and attract all the attention you want, but how about letting those who don't want everyone in the world to know what they have in their homes, be left alone.

And what's with the needing a big name spokesperson? Do it yourself. No one is going to do it for you. Quit putting your lack of ability on someone else's shoulders. Names don't mean squat to anyone not heavily involved in reptiles. Heck, most names don't mean squat to those of us in reptiles as it is.

Chicken Little must be really important to some of you. Whether the sky is falling or not, posting foolish requests, unresearched directions as if you actually knew what you were talking about and continually beating the same dead horse serve no one in any positive way.

Better silent than stupid might be something a couple of you should look into adopting as a motto.

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Originally Posted by Kinra

The problem with using Betty White as a spokes person is that she is a huge HSUS supporter. She did support PETA at one point but last I heard she no longer supports that cause.

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I was not aware of this. I wonder if she knows what HSUS is really all about? If she dropped support for PETA, that might be the case.

Hey wes, do you ever think before you speak? The bottom line is if something is not done those people you speak of that want to keep their collections annonymous wont be allowed to have them. Support is what is needed if you sit back and dont stand up for what your doing then its going to be taken from you. But im sure you knew that already consiidering you seem to know it all. Oh man i hope your not gonna tell on me again so i get banned buy it is what it is

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Originally Posted by wilomn

donna, don't you EVER research the ideas you throw out?

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Usually, yes. I missed something this time.
Don't you EVER have anything nice to say to anyone? Or even anything constructive? How did your post contribute to the effort to save reptiles from being added to the Lacey Act?

Do you have any actual suggestions?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Usually, yes. I missed something this time.
Don't you EVER have anything nice to say to anyone? Or even anything constructive? How did your post contribute to the effort to save reptiles from being added to the Lacey Act?

Do you have any actual suggestions?

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It's not the first time you've "missed" something. Nor the second, or third. Pointing that out to people who have not seen you do this is constructive.

My actual suggestion is for you to STOP posting. If that's not possible for you, then perhaps, just maybe, YOU could ACTUALLY read what you pass on before you post.

Anything else I can help you with? I'm feeling generous tonight.

Yes, I'm still waiting for your actual suggestion which would HELP with the problem we are all facing. Do you not have one?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, I'm still waiting for your actual suggestion which would HELP with the problem we are all facing. Do you not have one?

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Do we really need to have yet another fight within the community? Your enthusiasm should be the most important thing, and i won't make a comment to things i don't know.. but we need to calm down and all get on one page.. We're all just going off in different directions try to each help the community and over turn the ban but all we're doing is making chaos.....

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yes, I'm still waiting for your actual suggestion which would HELP with the problem we are all facing. Do you not have one?

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Your INFORMED opinion would, maybe, be helpful.

Your posts so far, are not.

If I posted the idiocy you do, would you not have something to say?

I hope you at least think you're being helpful, but usually, you're not. I may be one of the only ones to say so, but we both know I'm not the only one who thinks so. That's something you need to deal with.

That's about all the helpful I have for you. Take it or not, but deep down you know I'm right.

Ok, so now I'm waiting for a MODERATOR, and your actual suggestion...if you have one.

Does anyone else have any suggestions? The more ideas we get now, the better chance we have of putting together the best possible plan.

Getting the word out any way we can and raising awarness to the situation is the only way to get things accomplished. The useless banter by wes as usual doesnt help anything.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Does anyone else have any suggestions? The more ideas we get now, the better chance we have of putting together the best possible plan.

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My locally herp society is starting up a public awareness campaign. We are meeting next Wednesday to discuss what we are going to do but our president has an idea.

First up we are meeting in a semi public place (Barnes and Noble) for our first meeting to discuss this. We are going to to make up fliers to hang around town. From there we are going to host a large general public meeting.

Our plan of attack is going to be to expose PETA and HSUS for what they truly are, anti-pet organization with the ideal of ending all pet ownership. We are also going to expose how donating to them doesn't really do much to stop animal cruelty or help local shelters/any shelter.

We know we aren't going to get most of the population angry about a snake ban but if we can make them see how unjust it is and how the organization back it are really after their pets as well we might be able to rally more support.

Ben Siegel also recently started up an intermediary adoption agency to help re-home the burms that are going to be displaced because of this ban. http://www.savetheburms.org/
http://www.facebook.com/savetheburms

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Originally Posted by Kinra

Our plan of attack is going to be to expose PETA and HSUS for what they truly are, anti-pet organization with the ideal of ending all pet ownership. We are also going to expose how donating to them doesn't really do much to stop animal cruelty or help local shelters/any shelter.

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I keep hearing this and I'm interested to know how much of it is speculation. I have trouble seeing how ending pet ownership would benefit these organizations. I understand anti-reptile organizations being motivated by fear, but ending all pet ownership? Why would they take that stance? I'm not discrediting or attacking your post in any way, I'd simply be interested in seeing your sources.

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

I keep hearing this and I'm interested to know how much of it is speculation. I have trouble seeing how ending pet ownership would benefit these organizations. I understand anti-reptile organizations being motivated by fear, but ending all pet ownership? Why would they take that stance? I'm not discrediting or attacking your post in any way, I'd simply be interested in seeing your sources.

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I may be putting words in their mouths as they often do for us, but PETA is very anti breeders and in a world with only spayed/neutered "companion animals" they die out pretty quick. If you read PETA's stance on keeping pets you can see how they think keeping domestic pets is cruel. http://www.peta.org/about/why-peta/pets.aspx

I don't have a link from HSUS handy, but I have seen some very negative quotes floating around from the CEO of HSUS.

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Originally Posted by Kinra

I may be putting words in their mouths as they often do for us, but PETA is very anti breeders and in a world with only spayed/neutered "companion animals" they die out pretty quick. If you read PETA's stance on keeping pets you can see how they think keeping domestic pets is cruel. http://www.peta.org/about/why-peta/pets.aspx

I don't have a link from HSUS handy, but I have seen some very negative quotes floating around from the CEO of HSUS.

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While I do agree that PETA is a radical group with mixed up priorities, I don't think that the spay/neuter movement is an attempt to eradicate domesticated animals. As someone who volunteers at local animal shelters, I am also strongly against breeding cats and dogs (with a few exceptions). Of course with snakes there is still a higher demand than supply, so that's a different matter, though they may not see it that way. All I'm saying is that while I think PETA takes things way too far, their claims are not necessarily unfounded.

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

I think PETA takes things way too far, their claims are not necessarily unfounded.

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Really? Which claims in particular do you refer to?

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

While I do agree that PETA is a radical group with mixed up priorities, I don't think that the spay/neuter movement is an attempt to eradicate domesticated animals. As someone who volunteers at local animal shelters, I am also strongly against breeding cats and dogs (with a few exceptions). Of course with snakes there is still a higher demand than supply, so that's a different matter, though they may not see it that way. All I'm saying is that while I think PETA takes things way too far, their claims are not necessarily unfounded.

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I wasn't trying to say that people shouldn't spay and neuter their pets. Both my dog and cat are adopted and I try to support local shelters, so I can understand their point of view, but I also support responsible breeders. If you read the first part of the link I posted you can clearly see that PETA does not approve of "companion animals".

"we believe that it would have been in the animals' best interests if the institution of "pet keeping"—i.e., breeding animals to be kept and regarded as "pets"—never existed."

"This selfish desire to possess animals and receive love from them causes immeasurable suffering"

Neither my dog or my cat suffer. They are both spoiled rotten so I disagree with PETA on this. I also disagree with their stance on Zoos, how they try to get their message across, the pointless lawsuits they pursue (the one where they were suing SeaWorld or something similar because keeping wild caught Orac was a violation of the Orac's civil rights and they were basically slaves comes to mind here), and many other issues. I may stretch what they are saying by interpreting their message in a way that supports my arguments, but they are clearly against keeping pets and kill way too many every year.

To spay and neuter, not to spay and neuter, it comes down to owner responsibillity. I have my own personal views on zoos. I dont believe certain species of animals deserve to be confined in zoos. Big cats, primates, open ocean species and other big animals dont need to be penned up. They belong in the wild in their natural habbitat. Endangered species breeding programs are essential as long as an good reintroduction into the wild program is in place. Thats just my oppinion. Peta has always had the same agenda and they are doing more harm then good. Look as a species humans are a destructive species and we have done alot of harm to this planet on so many levels which is why we as reptile enthusiasts need to educate in a possitive manner.

HSUS has many PETA members at its highest levels...the two organizations are inextricably intertwined.
Everyone needs to understand who these people really are. We are NOT being paranoid. We are NOT spreading libel, or making wild accusations. These people ACTUALLY ARE against pet ownership, against all animal agriculture...and perfectly willing to lie to achieve their goals.

"Don’t breed dogs, don’t buy, don’t even accept giveaways" HSUS CEO John Hoyt in a 1991
speech.

"..your everyday meat-eaters and cosmetics users; they are not vivisectors, they are not
slaughterhouse operators, and they have basic feelings of compassion. But they are accustomed
to eating, wearing, and using animal products, and they need to be convinced to give them up.
They can be won over—slowly but surely they are being won over—….." Michael Markarian.
Executive VP Humane Society of the United States; Past President, Fund for Animals; Board
member Institute for Animals and Society.

When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, "If I had my personal view, perhaps that
might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born." Wayne Pacelle quoted in
Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993, p. 266.

We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through
selective breeding. . One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of
domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding." Wayne Pacelle, Senior VP of
Humane Society of the US, formerly of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals, Animal
People, May, 1993

"We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United
States ... We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California. Then we
will take it state by state. Wayne Pacelle, Senior VP Humane Society of the US (HSUS), formerly
of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals, Full Cry Magazine, Oct 1, 1990.

My goal is the abolition of all animal agriculture. Statement made on "AR-Views," an animal-
rights Internet discussion group, J P Goodwin, HSUS Grassroots Coordinator while executive
director of the Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade

“We don’t want any of these animals to be raised and killed [for food] ... unfortunately we don’t
have the luxury of waiting until we have the opportunity to get rid of the entire industry.” Miyun
Park, former HSUS Vice President for Farm Animal Welfare, October 2006, Animals and
Society Institute conference