Ever think that my spider may be more adapted to this world then your normal?

Wow, quite a stretch huh? Not really. Think about it.

Spider: a base genetic mutation that is clearly on a different level than any other naturally occurring morph. It is a mutation that affects both the mind and body. How on earth did they live in the wild? Surely they must have lived... I mean, where did the first one come from?

Ah, how we humans are so quick to point out differences amongst the masses and consider anything out of the ordinary as wrong...

Ever hear this one?

"Man! Did you see that sick spiders head shake? It seems like every time he gets either really scared or really worked up, he shakes his head. When he is eating he REALLY gets worked up!!!!"

Got to love these:

"Yes, I know that the spider syndrome is a genetic DEFECT, and its behavior is obviously sign of a disorder. I promise my spider doesn't shake or do anything funny at all. He is perfect unlike all your retarded spiders"

A personal favorite:

"I got this friend, of a friend, of a brothers friend that had a baby spider ball python that wobbled and corkscrewed so bad that it couldn't eat on its own. They eventually had to put it down."

:colbert:

How about this from an experienced ball python owner with multiple animals:

"My spiders and spider combos are the best eaters in my entire collection. Sometimes it might take them a while but wow! He eats almost every single time"

Hmmm... that’s a good thing right?

"When my spider gets hungry he kind of star gazes at night. He sticks his head up and corkscrews a little... sometimes he shakes right after that.. It is kind of like he is doing some kind of dance"

Can't remember the thread, but it was once shown that a wild ball pythons stomach autopsy revealed that ball pythons were mostly eating birds. Interesting.......

Ever consider that maybe the spiders pattern and corkscrewing may have been helpful to him in attracting prey? Is that too outrageous to consider? I suggest you check out the discovery channel a little more often. You will see that different animal species do some pretty crazy stuff to attract mates and food.

I think it is no coincidences that most experienced keepers say that their spiders or spider combos are excellent feeders. Let’s face it, in some ways they are just better adapted to hunt...

Sure you will hear "My spider is a horrible feeder"... or "A friend of a friend (or I) had a spider that corkscrewed so bad that he had to be put down." But think about this, how many spiders are there out there now? And how often do you hear these complaints? Not very often.

I suggest that the spider morph is a relative to the normal type ball python that took a different evolutionary path. Both relatives have thier strengths and weaknesses... but both must have worked well enough for us to be able to find them in the wild like we did.

Don't be so quick to think that their quirky behavior is a defect. I know quite a few snake species that as a primary defense shake their tales. Some of the top predators even shake their heads. Why is it so hard to imagine that the spider wobble is not an evolutionary trait?

Show any non snake person a spider when it is wobbling. Tell them to touch it. They will look at you like your crazy and say "I aint touching that thing, It will bite me!!!" Wow, it is pretty intimidating behavior isn't it? No way could they use a trait like that in the wild...

Right?

:weirdface

Very interesting thought Mike. I had never thought about that, but it makes perfect sense. The two things you always hear about spiders are their wobble, and their feeding response compared to others.

I for one would love to know exactly where they were originally found in the wild, that could tell a lot!

They all come from the same part of Africa

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I suggest that the spider morph is a relative to the normal type ball python that took a different evolutionary path. Both relatives have thier strengths and weaknesses... but both must have worked well enough for us to be able to find them in the wild like we did.

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I am completely following you on this Mike, and find your perspective very interesting and well thought out...however, I just don't find myself convinced. I'm not one to call any irregularity a genetic defect, as so many morphs are well suited(color/pattern) for living in the wild. Your suggestion of spiders taking a different evolutionary path could only be determined by surveys and statistical data. I don't think that them being found in the wild is enough to go on, as many of our morphs came from the wild.

Although it may not be a worthwhile study, it would be an interesting one for sure...to survey spider bp populations vs. normals/wildtypes/various other wild morphs, see if there are any differences in prey of choice between them, etc...

All that said, I like spiders, and I don't mind their wobble. They are fascinating on their own and make incredible combos...the wobble, be it neurological defect or evolutionary gain, is part of the package, and I don't think people should let it worry them to the point of choosing not to work with spiders because of it.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

They all come from the same part of Africa

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I understand that...but what I am saying is SPECIFIC, like a certain spot that could/would constitute their possible "adapted" hunting skills as Mike suggests.

so are you wondering if theyre a sub-species of some sorts? ive wondered that about all the morphs in general, since theyre range, while thin across central africa, is still enormous since africa is a BIG place. but what i dont get, is that with hybrids, wouldnt you get a mixed animal instead of one or the other? for example when you breed a spider to a normal, you get half spiders, and half normals, but none that are both. so why would only one single gene take a different evolutionary path, while the rest are still normal? the wobble seems to have a direct link with the spider gene (from what ive gathered on here at least), but has anyone seen a normal from a spider clutch that has that wobble? i would think that if it were a "sub-species" of some sort, it would be able to pass down the wobble without passing down the pattern, or vise versa, does that all make sense? im kinda tired lol

Spiders are very interesting. It's difficult to describe them. I would almost suggest a spider to a new owner simply because their wobble can..well, help us understand what is going on in their heads. My boyfriend calls them "domesticated ball pythons", though that's not really the right word. But I get what he means. They tend to 'communicate' to us more than other ball pythons do.

If I take out my normal and hold him, I know he is stressed. Even when he is not showing signs of stress. I discover his stress later when he refuses to eat, despite him acting completely calm and normal the entire time. Only when he is EXTREMELY stressed out do I notice him acting different than normal.

However, you will know the moment a spider is starting to get nervous. That wobble can speak to us, a lot like a cockatiel's crest. When they get excited, they start spinnin'! I can see when a spider is hungry, and I could probably tell much easier if a spider was going to be willing to take a f/t rodent or if he simply wasn't hungry. If he's not getting excited about the rat, he's probably not going to eat. Sometimes it's harder to tell with the normals who hold perfectly still until they strike--or hold perfectly still....until you leave them alone because they aren't going to eat that night.

Seeing spiders helps me realize how nervous BPs are. I think normals are feeling just as much stress as the spiders are, but the spiders have a way of expressing the excitement, curiosity, fear, or stress in a way that can communicate what they need to us. It's kind of cool to be honest.

Maybe spiders aren't 'adapted to the world' more, but perhaps even 'adapted to captivity' better than a high stress normal.

The spider ball python is a mutation or "morph", meaning that a specific gene is different from the normal or "wild type". In this case whatever gene it is that is different effects the all the different aspects of the python that characterize it as the spider morph, this could be anything from a defected enzyme or regulatory protein, but it all comes from the single mutation.

Natural selection controls the genomes that exist within a population, and may select for a mutation that offers a survival advantage. If the spider mutation had a selective advantage, they would be the wild type and we would call them normals.

Spiders do make great morphs to keep though, I love their colors and the wobble gives them lots of personality, they are great feeders and make beautiful combos too.

I like your perspective Mike. Nobody really knows how long the Spider has actually been around, their history is really unknown prior to the Ball Python market exploding like it did.

Very nice thought. I agree. My spiders wobble is almost unnoticable and he is in fact one of my best feeders, he misses once in a blue moon but he always gets his meal and feeds every time often looking for more. I think that most genetic traits whether it be color, pattern, or behavior come from a genetic advantage at some point in the history of the animals and their environments and that most of the traits we see today are genetic leftovers hanging on just incase they become usefull again.

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Originally Posted by Kenj620

The spider ball python is a mutation or "morph", meaning that a specific gene is different from the normal or "wild type". In this case whatever gene it is that is different effects the all the different aspects of the python that characterize it as the spider morph, this could be anything from a defected enzyme or regulatory protein, but it all comes from the single mutation.

Natural selection controls the genomes that exist within a population, and may select for a mutation that offers a survival advantage. If the spider mutation had a selective advantage, they would be the wild type and we would call them normals.

Spiders do make great morphs to keep though, I love their colors and the wobble gives them lots of personality, they are great feeders and make beautiful combos too.

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Not necessarily, it may have been an advantage at a point when the african environment or climate was different or when there were different predators and prey. Things may have changed leaving an opening for the gene of the "normals" we see today and the spider gene may have not been needed any longer. There just isnt enough factors known about ball python morphs in the wild. Maybe in the particular region where alot of spiders are found there is a predator that is detered by the wobble assuming that the snake is ill or maybe there is a type of prey in that region that that the spider gene has specifically adapted to in order to catch. Too many unknowns.

Spiders are a genetic problem from inbreeding *lol* They may have had some survive in the wild, but a lot, in fact most of the morphs in the ball python trade were bred by keepers and would not have been in the wild. No wild snake is going to breed to it's mother, then have that offspring breed back to itself and so on.

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Originally Posted by Missy King

Spiders are a genetic problem from inbreeding *lol* They may have had some survive in the wild, but a lot, in fact most of the morphs in the ball python trade were bred by keepers and would not have been in the wild. No wild snake is going to breed to it's mother, then have that offspring breed back to itself and so on.

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The first spider was WC and has a wobble it is not inbreed this is not supported by fact. They have been breed back but as there is no super form which was proven quickly there is no reason to continue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kenj620

Natural selection controls the genomes that exist within a population, and may select for a mutation that offers a survival advantage. If the spider mutation had a selective advantage, they would be the wild type and we would call them normals.

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Frankly this is so wrong on so many different levels. Who is to say that the spiders were not at one time the majority in a specific area? What if a new preditor discovered how to hunt them? What if a new preditor became aware of their corkscrewing prey attracting behavior? They would have been picked off one by one. Maybe the spider that was found was one of the last remaining decendents of what ball pythons used to be in a particular area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Missy King

Spiders are a genetic problem from inbreeding *lol* They may have had some survive in the wild, but a lot, in fact most of the morphs in the ball python trade were bred by keepers and would not have been in the wild..

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Oh really? I thought most of the base morphs we are working with WERE found in the wild... BTW, the first WC spider wobbled.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Missy King

No wild snake is going to breed to it's mother, then have that offspring breed back to itself and so on.

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Are you serious? You honestly don't think imbreeding occurs in the wild?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The first spider was WC and has a wobble it is not inbreed this is not supported by fact. They have been breed back but as there is no super form which was proven quickly there is no reason to continue.

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Snakes are non-migratory animals that inbreed consistently. Inbreeding is what causes one locale to look different from the other next door, and much more different than the locale beyond that. Morphs survive in the wild. African collectors know where to find them but most now are kept and bred in Africa.

You don't even know what the spider mutation is and yet you suggest-

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I suggest that the spider morph is a relative to the normal type ball python that took a different evolutionary path. Both relatives have thier strengths and weaknesses... but both must have worked well enough for us to be able to find them in the wild like we did.

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It is very probable to be a point mutation with a promoter controlling the level of expression really no grounds to suggest an evolutionary divergence.

Also, if your going to call my statements wrong then address it with facts. Your argument seems to be based on many what if scenarios that would give it some validity. If you want to do the science by all mean go for it, but speculation doesn't go far these days.

Keep in mind that there has only been 1 spider ever found in the wild. And that 1 is the source of what we have today. So we don't know how well they can survive since we have only found one. Maybe it was the only one out there.

I agree wholeheartedly, thank you :)

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Originally Posted by Driver

Keep in mind that there has only been 1 spider ever found in the wild. And that 1 is the source of what we have today. So we don't know how well they can survive since we have only found one. Maybe it was the only one out there.

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That's as much speculation as the original post, and a pretty bold claim to say that only one has ever been found in the wild. We have no idea how many have been found. There may have only been one, but there may have been a dozen or more. Not every wild caught ball python has been sent here, not every one sent here has made it alive, and not nearly every one collected was sent anywhere at all.

Interesting viewpoint Mike. Personally I think that some of my spiders are more intelligent than the others. In addition to their fantastic appetites and general goofiness... they are always staring at me. It's kind of creepy. :rofl:

I was under the distinct impression there has been several spiders found in the wild, and they all had the wobble.

It makes no sense to think we pull yellowbellies, pastels, ghosts and a few other morphs from the wild every year, but only one spider was ever found.

Gale

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

That's as much speculation as the original post, and a pretty bold claim to say that only one has ever been found in the wild. We have no idea how many have been found. There may have only been one, but there may have been a dozen or more. Not every wild caught ball python has been sent here, not every one sent here has made it alive, and not nearly every one collected was sent anywhere at all.

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It's not really speculation. It's more fact. There has only been one Spider that has been caught in the wild. That one is the one that NERD got in 1999. There are no other records of spiders being found in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Driver

It's more fact.

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Really?! In the entire history of ball pythons in Africa, it is a fact that only one spider ball python has ever been found in the wild? I don't know how you can be so certain to even stand behind that statement. At best, it's unknown...at the very best.

Back to the topic at hand, as I said earlier, it's definitely an interesting perspective, and makes for interesting discussion...however, it's not something I'm so inclined to believe without some sort of data/evidence.

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Originally Posted by Driver

It's not really speculation. It's more fact. There has only been one Spider that has been caught in the wild. That one is the one that NERD got in 1999. There are no other records of spiders being found in the wild.

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Not that I really care about this silly argument, but is this your source?

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=35197

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Originally Posted by Kenj620

You don't even know what the spider mutation is and yet you suggest....

It is very probable to be a point mutation with a promoter controlling the level of expression really no grounds to suggest an evolutionary divergence.

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You are right, I don't know what the spider mutation is. But here is the thing, neither do you. So how can you suggest that "it is very probably to be a point mutation with a promotor controlling the level of expression and really no grounds to suggest an evolutionary divergence" ??? Sounds like your guesswork is adding up to a lot of fluff as well.

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Originally Posted by Driver

Keep in mind that there has only been 1 spider ever found in the wild. And that 1 is the source of what we have today. So we don't know how well they can survive since we have only found one. Maybe it was the only one out there.

---

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Originally Posted by Driver

It's not really speculation. It's more fact. There has only been one Spider that has been caught in the wild. That one is the one that NERD got in 1999. There are no other records of spiders being found in the wild.

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So man just happened to find the only spider in the history of the world? Let me get this right... When a spider mates with a normal 50% of the babies are spider, 50% are normal. To suggest that one spider somebody happened to find in the wild is the only one is rediculous. Even more rediculous is the idea that because we only have record of another country finding one spider ball python, it must be the only one they have ever found.

:8: LOL!

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

That's as much speculation as the original post, and a pretty bold claim to say that only one has ever been found in the wild. We have no idea how many have been found. There may have only been one, but there may have been a dozen or more. Not every wild caught ball python has been sent here, not every one sent here has made it alive, and not nearly every one collected was sent anywhere at all.

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Bingo!

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Originally Posted by spitzu

Not that I really care about this silly argument, but is this your source?

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=35197

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lol its not my source I just posted over there to get some more information on it. I original heard about the one spider on one of their Reptile Radio broadcast. It was one of the subjects that they were talking about. It has also came up here on these forums a few times. I'm just at work and don't have the time to dig through the forums to find it or listen to the shows to find the particular show.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

So man just happened to find the only spider in the history of the world? Let me get this right... When a spider mates with a normal 50% of the babies are spider, 50% are normal. To suggest that one spider somebody happened to find in the wild is the only one is rediculous. Even more rediculous is the idea that because we only have record of another country finding one spider ball python, it must be the only one they have ever found.

:8: LOL!
Bingo!

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First of all 50% of the babies wouldn't be guaranteed to be Spider. Each egg has a 50% chance to be normal or spider. Maybe there was only one that came out.

Second what caused the spider? It wasn't from a spider breeding to a normal some mutation or evolution had to cause the first spider.

And if you notice I did say there is no record of any more every being found?
Please by all means show me where some breeder besides NERD back in 99 that has it noted that they got a wild caught spider?
But it wouldn't make since to me that they would find a spider and keep it over there to breed it and keep it a secret. When they find wild albinos and pieds and bananas that are all worth more than the highest quality spider and ship them over here and tell us about those.
They do keep stuff to breed and then send them to us but unless its a never been seen before morph, they usually will say what they a have over there.
Why would they keep a spider a secret?

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Originally Posted by Driver

First of all 50% of the babies wouldn't be guaranteed to be Spider. Each egg has a 50% chance to be normal or spider.

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LOL, I say the glass is half full. You say it is half empty. who is right? I don't know, but I never said the word "guaranteed".

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Originally Posted by Driver

Second what caused the spider? It wasn't from a spider breeding to a normal some mutation or evolution had to cause the first spider.

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exactly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driver

They do keep stuff to breed and then send them to us but unless its a never been seen before morph, they usually will say what they a have over there.

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Oh really? You seem to have expert knowledge of how the ball python farmers of Africa conduct business... Where may I ask did you gain such priceless knowledge?

Now back to your regularly scheduled programing...

I have done a lot of research on it. There is not as much information out there that I would like there to be but enough to get an idea of how they operate. And I have never clamed to be an expert. There are you tube videos of the people taking a tour of snake farmers in Gahana. In the videos they are showing them how they catch the snakes and where they keep and breed them. They were telling them that they had yellow bellies that they are breeding to produce Ivories. Along with a few other morphs as well that they were breeding. They were also showing how they bag and ship the animals in bulk. They also made a point to say that there is stuff that they can’t show them because it is a secret that they are trying to prove out. There is also Reptile Radio shows where they have discussed the African snake farmer’s work. There are other reptile shows that discuss this as well. Then you have the big breeders get first shot at anything that they find in Africa. They have talked about the African snake farmers as well. If you do enough research you can get a good idea of their operations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Driver

I have done a lot of research on it. There is not as much information out there that I would like there to be but enough to get an idea of how they operate. And I have never clamed to be an expert. There are you tube videos of the people taking a tour of snake farmers in Gahana. In the videos they are showing them how they catch the snakes and where they keep and breed them. They were telling them that they had yellow bellies that they are breeding to produce Ivories. Along with a few other morphs as well that they were breeding. They were also showing how they bag and ship the animals in bulk. They also made a point to say that there is stuff that they can’t show them because it is a secret that they are trying to prove out. There is also Reptile Radio shows where they have discussed the African snake farmer’s work. There are other reptile shows that discuss this as well. Then you have the big breeders get first shot at anything that they find in Africa. They have talked about the African snake farmers as well. If you do enough research you can get a good idea of their operations.

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Oh ok, that clears things up. Thank you for sharing your "internet knowledge"

LOL

Whats your knowledge? On the subject? Have you actually gone to Africa and watched the spider ball pythons? How do you know that "they mostly eat birds in the wild"?

I feel like all this bickering is restarted. It's fair to say that we all seem to enjoy spiders company, their personality, and their babies. It's also fair to say that yes NERD has/had a wild caught spider. It may not be the only one, but it's the most famous. It's like when people say that earth is the only planet with water. There is no way of knowing that due to the amount of stars and the amount of rock that's floating around our there. If you had a wild caught spider now that wobbled, why would you brag about it when it's no different then the rest. I loved reading the first post because I thought it raised a good topic to think about. Im sure it wasn't meant to start a fight. So let's all calm down and have a discussion nicely. Please!

lol I dont think that either of us are really fighting. Its just very obvious that we both like to debate/argue what ever you want to call it. Its something that is entertaining and we both appear to be strong headed. So much so that we are doing this little discussion together on two separate forums at the same time. :P

LOL. Alright. As long as we are all getting along.

OP is either trolling or very uneducated on genetics and evolution. Since there's already a feeding frenzy, I'll chime in under the second assumption.

The spider wobble is a form of ataxia. It's pretty well understood in the medical world. It's a genetic defect. It's not an evolutionary advantage. Before trying to argue that point with me, I'll say that I'm not going to write a research paper to justify those statements. They are well founded and you can use your new vocab word to research further if it interests you. In this case, the ataxia is most definitely linked to the same mutation that causes the color pattern of a spider, as it has been vigorously attempted to select out the behavior while retaining the color pattern and always been unsuccessful.

The morph came from one original snake that was imported by NERD in 1999. Finding new snakes in africa is a big deal. The poor person who discovered the original spider probably got paid 2 dollars for it rather than 10 cents like the rest of the snakes they caught. If there was a population of spiders, we'd know...

In terms of the spider gene pool possibly being more suited to being kept as a domestic pet, there could be a small bit of truth there. Mine is certainly great. I would love to see some real science to back that but that's a pipe dream at best... for now we can just enjoy them and agree that they do just fine in captivity by discussiong how wonderful they are on the forums :D

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Originally Posted by MrLang

OP is either trolling or very uneducated on genetics and evolution. Since there's already a feeding frenzy, I'll chime in under the second assumption.

The spider wobble is a form of ataxia. It's pretty well understood in the medical world. It's a genetic defect. It's not an evolutionary advantage. Before trying to argue that point with me, I'll say that I'm not going to write a research paper to justify those statements. They are well founded and you can use your new vocab word to research further if it interests you. In this case, the ataxia is most definitely linked to the same mutation that causes the color pattern of a spider, as it has been vigorously attempted to select out the behavior while retaining the color pattern and always been unsuccessful.

The morph came from one original snake that was imported by NERD in 1999. Finding new snakes in africa is a big deal. The poor person who discovered the original spider probably got paid 2 dollars for it rather than 10 cents like the rest of the snakes they caught. If there was a population of spiders, we'd know...

In terms of the spider gene pool possibly being more suited to being kept as a domestic pet, there could be a small bit of truth there. Mine is certainly great. I would love to see some real science to back that but that's a pipe dream at best... for now we can just enjoy them and agree that they do just fine in captivity by discussiong how wonderful they are on the forums :D

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I hear and know what you are talking about, however just because something is classifieded as a disorder or dysfunctional doesnt mean that it couldnt serve or hasnt served as a beneficial survival tactic. Sickle Cell anemia for instance us considered a disorder in humans but in a place where malaria is prevalent say Africa or anywhere tropical this disorder would be beneficial since malaria is rampant there and people with this disorder are less likely to get and better equiped to deal with malaria. Just so happens that many Africans and people of African descent carry this gene or exhibit it. Just playing devils advocate.

All of the speculation on the wobble being a defect due to inbreeding is misplaced. If snakes were mammals (or more specifically primates) that could be relevant, but as it is I have a hard time believing the genetic differences resulting from inbreeding between the two are even worth comparing... apples to oranges yada yada...

Either way I'm not exactly a fan of the spider gene, but I'm not a critic either. And it has nothing to do with the wobble, I'm just indiffernent on them aesthetically. I can also appreciate an alternate point of view, so thank you Mike, I enjoyed the read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrLang

OP is either trolling or very uneducated on genetics and evolution. Since there's already a feeding frenzy, I'll chime in under the second assumption.

The spider wobble is a form of ataxia. It's pretty well understood in the medical world. It's a genetic defect. It's not an evolutionary advantage. Before trying to argue that point with me, I'll say that I'm not going to write a research paper to justify those statements. They are well founded and you can use your new vocab word to research further if it interests you. In this case, the ataxia is most definitely linked to the same mutation that causes the color pattern of a spider, as it has been vigorously attempted to select out the behavior while retaining the color pattern and always been unsuccessful.

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Ah.... the precious moments when a 3 month old newbie with 2 ball pythons rocks the ball python world with expert knowledge that is SO respected, that he doesn't even have to back up his claims.

LOL!

I suggest that perhaps YOU do some more research on ataxia. Then I suggest that you keep and breed spiders and spider combos for the next few years. Once you have produced about 100 spiders, then come back and talk to me. I would bet that at that point you will be able to understand why it probably isn't ataxia.

I see the spider gene as the human equivalent to down syndrome or autism.

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Originally Posted by Domepiece

I hear and know what you are talking about, however just because something is classifieded as a disorder or dysfunctional doesnt mean that it couldnt serve or hasnt served as a beneficial survival tactic. Sickle Cell anemia for instance us considered a disorder in humans but in a place where malaria is prevalent say Africa or anywhere tropical this disorder would be beneficial since malaria is rampant there and people with this disorder are less likely to get and better equiped to deal with malaria. Just so happens that many Africans and people of African descent carry this gene or exhibit it. Just playing devils advocate.

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Sickle Cell Anemia wasn't selected for by natural pressures though... this is a 'unrelated helpful side effect' from a genetic disorder that overall reduces the fitness of the individual. I agree with you totally, which is kind of my point about Spiders potentially being better suited for domestication. As someone with a background in science I need to draw a distinction between evolution and flaws having dumb luck positive consequences. I'm not saying evolution doesn't start with such mutations, just that it isn't what we see with Sickle Cell (which by definition reduces the fitness of the individual) or Spider Wobble (which, in captivity, doesn't reduce the fitness.) There aren't separate populations of Spider BPs living in the wild (which by the way would be the only way you can support a claim about them being 'evolved'). Being a man of science, I won't be bullish enough to make unsupported claims as fact. I can't say that they would have reduced fitness in the grasslands because I couldn't support that with real science, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on them being disadvantaged.

@ Mike - I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with you, so don't bait or I'll leave the discussion. I don't get the sense that you're contributing to your thread to learn anything, which is a real shame since you're wrong on many of your points. I'm confused how owning and breeding more spider ball pythons in plastic bins makes you better equipped to discuss evolution, genetics, or medical disorders with me. I'm speaking under the premise of what is known fact and universally accepted by people much smarter and who have done much more of their homework than you or I. You're speaking to your own personal speculation. I'm not telling you that you're wrong to be a jerk... I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're wrong.

I'd pit my background with an Evolutionary Biology degree, veterinarian sister who attended the most accredited vet school in the country and who owns her own practice, and mother who has worked in Neuropharmacology for 30 years over your experience raising snakes in an environment that doesn't even come remotely close to mimicking the wild.

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Originally Posted by Missy King

Spiders are a genetic problem from inbreeding *lol* They may have had some survive in the wild, but a lot, in fact most of the morphs in the ball python trade were bred by keepers and would not have been in the wild. No wild snake is going to breed to it's mother, then have that offspring breed back to itself and so on.

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LOL right back at 'cha! They are one of the most OUTBRED mutations that there is. Since there's no super form of spider, there's no reason for a breeder to ever line breed or breed back to parents.

At least have an argument that makes a little bit of sense.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

So man just happened to find the only spider in the history of the world? Let me get this right... When a spider mates with a normal 50% of the babies are spider, 50% are normal. To suggest that one spider somebody happened to find in the wild is the only one is rediculous. Even more rediculous is the idea that because we only have record of another country finding one spider ball python, it must be the only one they have ever found.

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Sorry Mike - all about facts here. There has only been one spider ever found in the wild, and that one spider was imported to Kevin McCurley.

All spiders are outcrossed direct descendants of Kevin's founding spider.

That's a well known bit of spider history. No other spider has ever been imported as a WC animal, or found as a WC animal.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Sickle Cell Anemia wasn't selected for by natural pressures though... this is a 'unrelated helpful side effect' from a genetic disorder that overall reduces the fitness of the individual. I agree with you totally, which is kind of my point about Spiders potentially being better suited for domestication. As someone with a background in science I need to draw a distinction between evolution and flaws having dumb luck positive consequences. I'm not saying evolution doesn't start with such mutations, just that it isn't what we see with Sickle Cell (which by definition reduces the fitness of the individual) or Spider Wobble (which, in captivity, doesn't reduce the fitness.) There aren't separate populations of Spider BPs living in the wild (which by the way would be the only way you can support a claim about them being 'evolved'). Being a man of science, I won't be bullish enough to make unsupported claims as fact. I can't say that they would have reduced fitness in the grasslands because I couldn't support that with real science, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on them being disadvantaged.

@ Mike - I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with you, so don't bait or I'll leave the discussion. I don't get the sense that you're contributing to your thread to learn anything, which is a real shame since you're wrong on many of your points. I'm confused how owning and breeding more spider ball pythons in plastic bins makes you better equipped to discuss evolution, genetics, or medical disorders with me. I'm speaking under the premise of what is known fact and universally accepted by people much smarter and who have done much more of their homework than you or I. You're speaking to your own personal speculation. I'm not telling you that you're wrong to be a jerk... I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're wrong.

I'd pit my background with an Evolutionary Biology degree, veterinarian sister who attended the most accredited vet school in the country and who owns her own practice, and mother who has worked in Neuropharmacology for 30 years over your experience raising snakes in an environment that doesn't even come remotely close to mimicking the wild.

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This is true. However there are two sides to this arguement. Sickle cell does reduce the fitness of an individual and they are likely not to live beyond 30-40-50 years tops. But in an area where they may have died of malaria before they were able to have children this would have given them the advantage of growing old enough to reproduce therefore continueing the human race. This is why sickle cell is so prevalent within certain populations. I'm also sure that all mutation is pretty much dumb luck, as far as I know there is no intellegent design to the mutation process, nature just trys new things and if they happen to work or work better those individual have a survival advantage and that mutation is passed to the offspring creating a high volume of individuals within that species that posses that mutation or possibly creating a new species. Its all dumb luck really.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

@ Mike - I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with you, so don't bait or I'll leave the discussion. I don't get the sense that you're contributing to your thread to learn anything, which is a real shame since you're wrong on many of your points..

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If I am wrong on so many points, perhaps you can point out one or two of those points and provide proof that I am wrong... should be easy enough to do considering you know so many educated people... :gj:

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I'm confused how owning and breeding more spider ball pythons in plastic bins makes you better equipped to discuss evolution, genetics, or medical disorders with me...

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Unlike you, when asked something, I answer it directly. If you had more experience and time with spiders and spider combos from hatchling, to adult, to reproduction, you would see that the symptoms associated with ataxia are very different then what is observed in spider ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I'm speaking under the premise of what is known fact and universally accepted by people much smarter and who have done much more of their homework than you or I. You're speaking to your own personal speculation. I'm not telling you that you're wrong to be a jerk... I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're wrong.

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OH! My appologies... I was not aware of these universally accepted facts. Certainly if something is universally accepted, there are studies or published scientific opinions on the subject? Right? Please do share these studies and opinions on the spider ball python. I would love to be educated on them... as I am sure the rest of the ball python community would too.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Sorry Mike - all about facts here. There has only been one spider ever found in the wild, and that one spider was imported to Kevin McCurley.

All spiders are outcrossed direct descendants of Kevin's founding spider.

That's a well known bit of spider history. No other spider has ever been imported as a WC animal, or found as a WC animal.

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Robin - I agree with most of these facts... Only ones I don't agree with are... "There has only been one spider ever found in the wild" and "No other spider has ever been imported as a wc animal, or found as a wc animal."

Neither you or I know if another spider has been found in the wild. We as Americans like to THINK we know everything that goes on in other countries... but we don't.

Also, even if man hasn't found another spider ball python in the wild, it doesn't mean they arent out there.

Hello again Mike how are you doing today?
Now back to point.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Robin - I agree with most of these facts... Only ones I don't agree with are... "There has only been one spider ever found in the wild" and "No other spider has ever been imported as a wc animal, or found as a wc animal."

Neither you or I know if another spider has been found in the wild. We as Americans like to THINK we know everything that goes on in other countries... but we don't.

Also, even if man hasn't found another spider ball python in the wild, it doesn't mean they arent out there.

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It would make big news if one was found. Everyone would be wondering if this spider could be one without the wobble or star gazing?

No where has anyone said that there is not any in the wild. Just that only one has ever been found.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

If I am wrong on so many points, perhaps you can point out one or two of those points and provide proof that I am wrong... should be easy enough to do considering you know so many educated people... :gj:



Unlike you, when asked something, I answer it directly. If you had more experience and time with spiders and spider combos from hatchling, to adult, to reproduction, you would see that the symptoms associated with ataxia are very different then what is observed in spider ball pythons.



OH! My appologies... I was not aware of these universally accepted facts. Certainly if something is universally accepted, there are studies or published scientific opinions on the subject? Right? Please do share these studies and opinions on the spider ball python. I would love to be educated on them... as I am sure the rest of the ball python community would too.



Robin - I agree with most of these facts... Only ones I don't agree with are... "There has only been one spider ever found in the wild" and "No other spider has ever been imported as a wc animal, or found as a wc animal."

Neither you or I know if another spider has been found in the wild. We as Americans like to THINK we know everything that goes on in other countries... but we don't.

Also, even if man hasn't found another spider ball python in the wild, it doesn't mean they arent out there.

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Mike - the point is - all captive spiders descend from ONE animal.

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Originally Posted by Driver

Hello again Mike how are you doing today?
Now back to point..

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:)

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Originally Posted by Driver

No where has anyone said that there is not any in the wild. Just that only one has ever been found.

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Yes, but everyone is doing 3 things:
1.) Assuming that there aren't any more in the wild.
2.) Assuming that just because they don't know about it, it is safe to assume that nobody has found any more in the wild.
3.) Assuming that the spider can't be an evolved relative to what we see as the "normal" ball python because of the assumptions listed in 1 and 2.

That is a whole lotta assumptions going on...

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Originally Posted by Driver

It would make big news if one was found.

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Only since the bp madness blew up...so we're looking at 20-25 years. Ball pythons and people have been co-existing for thousands of years, so it's ridiculous to say only 1 was ever found.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Mike - the point is - all captive spiders descend from ONE animal.

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I agree with that...

That doesn't mean that there aren't more out there.

It doesn't mean that the shaking of the head when excited or scared is NOT an advantage in the wild.

It doesn't mean that the corkscrewing can't be used to attract prey.

It doesn't really mean anything in regards to the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Only since the bp madness blew up...so we're looking at 20-25 years. Ball pythons and people have been co-existing for thousands of years, so it's ridiculous to say only 1 was ever found.

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Exactly. Lets not forget, people do eat ball pythons.... I wonder how many spiders ended up on a dinner plate. If they were out at night corkscrewing trying to attract birds, they would also probably be easier for preditors to find... like humans.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Only since the bp madness blew up...so we're looking at 20-25 years. Ball pythons and people have been co-existing for thousands of years, so it's ridiculous to say only 1 was ever found.

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Not really. There is only the one record of the one spider being found.