Viscious Ball

I've had my Ball for almost a year, and he's been extremely agressive since the day I got him. I ordered him from a breeder in Oklahoma. He's eating well, and getting fat. He seems health in every way. I've NEVER even seen him in the "ball" thretened posture. If my hand goes into the cage, he rears back to strike. He has a seperate feeding enclosure. He's bitten me about five times, the last one was pretty bad, he latched onto my thumb, and wrapped around my wrist. It took me about 15 minutes to get him off (carefully). I'm not to concerned about holding him all the time, but it would be nice if I could hold him every once in awhile. Any ideas about how I could begin taming this fella? Thanks!

If he bit, latched and wrapped you, that was a hunger strike, not a defense strike.

Can you tell us about his enclosure, his temps and setup, what does he eat and how often ?

Truly aggressive balls are very rare, but they are out there. Usually it can be traced to poor husbandry, lack of feeding, fear or confusion, or a few other things.

Give us as much background detail as you can, and we'll do our best to help.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

If he bit, latched and wrapped you, that was a hunger strike, not a defense strike.

Can you tell us about his enclosure, his temps and setup, what does he eat and how often ?

Truly aggressive balls are very rare, but they are out there. Usually it can be traced to poor husbandry, lack of feeding, fear or confusion, or a few other things.

Give us as much background detail as you can, and we'll do our best to help.

Gale

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^agree^

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Originally Posted by angllady2

if he bit, latched and wrapped you, that was a hunger strike, not a defense strike.

Can you tell us about his enclosure, his temps and setup, what does he eat and how often ?

Truly aggressive balls are very rare, but they are out there. Usually it can be traced to poor husbandry, lack of feeding, fear or confusion, or a few other things.

Give us as much background detail as you can, and we'll do our best to help.

Gale

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x3

Yeah, the only time I ever got a latch and wrap, the snake had been eating one small rat a month for the last three years because some vet told the owner he was "obese". And when I brought over a tray of medium rats, he downed 4 in the first sitting, 4 a week after that, and was at 3 rats a week for two months after that.

How often do you feed and how much? How old is this ball python, and how much does he weigh (or how long is he if you don't have a kitchen scale)? How often does he refuse food?

I would also classify this as "cage aggression". I would get a cardboard box and start feeding him in there instead of in his tank. He's associating the opening of the tank and the appearance of your hand with food. We need him to associate something else with food.

And last but not least, I would get a nice heavy pair of gardening or work gloves. It blocks the heat signature from your hands somewhat, AND if he bites it, it won't hurt you or reward him in any way. If we can get him past the cage aggression and the hunger, you can start handling him again barehanded on non-feeding days. But you'll definitely want gloves and probably long-sleeved shirts for moving him to and from the box on feeding days.

And I'm sorry to hear he latched and wrapped. I've only had that happen the one time, and gosh, it hurt. I had bruises visible on my finger for two weeks afterwards.

x4. If, you had him for almost a year and he act's like what you said? Then you are doing something wrong. You obviously don't handle him much. Have you ever taken out of his cage? How do you react after he strikes and hit's your hand? This behavior is usually when you first get a new bp. At, almost a year old this behavior should have been dealt with from the start.
I had a defensive male granite yellow anaconda. He would make the S shape and would alway's reposition himself to alway's be facing me. He striked twice and drew blood both times (defensive strikes. this was the first time I've ever tried to handle him). But, I never backed down and was determined to correct him. Two day's later I was able to handle him with no problem's. Never been bitten or shown any kind of aggresssion from him since. I've only had him for about three week's now.

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Originally Posted by Gbusiness

x4. If, you had him for almost a year and he act's like what you said? Then you are doing something wrong. You obviously don't handle him much. Have you ever taken out of his cage? How do you react after he strikes and hit's your hand? This behavior is usually when you first get a new bp. At, almost a year old this behavior should have been dealt with from the start.

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We're talking about snakes here, not dogs...:rolleyes:

I'm not saying this is the case here, but the guy could really just have an aggressive snake. I don't care if you're dealing with balls, boas, corns, rats, etc....there are always a few plain old nasty snakes. I have one girl that's a little rough around the edges(she's a biter), and how I approach her is different than how I approach the others. No husbandry/feeding issues, just a grumpy snake. Always has been.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Yeah, the only time I ever got a latch and wrap, the snake had been eating one small rat a month for the last three years because some vet told the owner he was "obese". And when I brought over a tray of medium rats, he downed 4 in the first sitting, 4 a week after that, and was at 3 rats a week for two months after that.

How often do you feed and how much? How old is this ball python, and how much does he weigh (or how long is he if you don't have a kitchen scale)? How often does he refuse food?

I would also classify this as "cage aggression". I would get a cardboard box and start feeding him in there instead of in his tank. He's associating the opening of the tank and the appearance of your hand with food. We need him to associate something else with food.

And last but not least, I would get a nice heavy pair of gardening or work gloves. It blocks the heat signature from your hands somewhat, AND if he bites it, it won't hurt you or reward him in any way. If we can get him past the cage aggression and the hunger, you can start handling him again barehanded on non-feeding days. But you'll definitely want gloves and probably long-sleeved shirts for moving him to and from the box on feeding days.

And I'm sorry to hear he latched and wrapped. I've only had that happen the one time, and gosh, it hurt. I had bruises visible on my finger for two weeks afterwards.

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I disagree with a few things said/implied here.

1) ball pythons are not parrots or dogs... allowing a snake to bite you is not a reward or in any way going to motivate or encourage it to want to bite more. I have never encountered a snake that has bit (whether strike/coil or defensively strike/release) make the connection that biting in any way gets them something they want/stops behavior they don't want. Biting from a snake is an instinctive response... they do so because you smell like food, or they feel threatened by you. A bird might bite because it learns you make funny sounds when they do so, or because they learn it makes you leave them alone.... a ball python does not, or at least hasn't ever in my experience or the experience of my peers.

2) the OP says they feed in a seperate enclosure. I recommend reading the dozens of threads/debates on this topic, and consider the thousands of snakes that are fed properly in their enclosures that never become "cage aggressive".

To the OP: my first thought.. is how large is the enclosure your BP is in? Does it have hides or adequate shelter to feel secure? We had a ball surrendered to us because she was "mean". They were keeping her in a 55 gallon tank... we put her in a small sterilite tub... she never once snapped at us. There are lots of possibilities aside from enclosure size that can be a factor with a defensive snake, and I am sure once you are able to post telhe specifics about your setup, everybody here will be able to give you lots of helpful advice :)

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Originally Posted by Gbusiness

You obviously don't handle him much.

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I have to disagree with this statement. The only time I handle mine is for cleaning and other maintenance, and majority of my balls don't strike. Now, I do have my male cinny that is a little jerk sometimes, and my WC females are tempermental, but regardless how much you handle ( or don't handle ) your ball python I don't think it has much to do with it.

My first thoughts on reading this is either your setup needs adjusting or your feeding schedule is a bit off. I also think it is causing him stress with moving him to another tank to feed. Please tell us more about your setup and feeding schedule and I'm sure we will be able to help you.

Justin, do you mean like this?

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...dscn2362-1.jpg

Room Temperature Rat


http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...dscn2366-1.jpg

Prey Temperature Hand

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Originally Posted by Anatopism

I disagree with a few things said/implied here.

1) ball pythons are not parrots or dogs... allowing a snake to bite you is not a reward or in any way going to motivate or encourage it to want to bite more. I have never encountered a snake that has bit (whether strike/coil or defensively strike/release) make the connection that biting in any way gets them something they want/stops behavior they don't want. Biting from a snake is an instinctive response... they do so because you smell like food, or they feel threatened by you. A bird might bite because it learns you make funny sounds when they do so, or because they learn it makes you leave them alone.... a ball python does not, or at least hasn't ever in my experience or the experience of my peers.

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Have you ever had a latch and wrap ball python bite? Have you ever had a ball python bite you and NOT LET GO for 5 minutes, until you finally jammed a pencil between its jaws? Only to have it immediately look around for another way to grab hold of you? It's a very, very different experience from 99.9% of ball python bites. And I'm 99.9% certain that that particular snake felt very good about chomping on my warm, deliciously bloody mammal finger that day.

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Originally Posted by Anatopism

2) the OP says they feed in a seperate enclosure. I recommend reading the dozens of threads/debates on this topic, and consider the thousands of snakes that are fed properly in their enclosures that never become "cage aggressive".

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Okay. If the OP said he feeds in a separate closure already, than that's what he does. And I read too quickly, so it's my mistake.

That said, I handle my ball pythons quite a lot. I have over a dozen of them. I have on more than one occasion been too lazy to remove a particular snake from its enclosure for several feedings in a row, only to have those same animals come shooting out in a very aggressive manner whenever I open my tanks/tubs, even on off-feeding days, while the rest of my collection ignored me in their usual manner. It's more pronounced during late summer. I have gotten a couple of hopeful feeding strike bites from my black pastel and het pied males as a result. They're not rocket scientists, these two, I admit it. But the feeding strikes stopped a week or two after I went back to separate enclosure feeding.

Most of the reason people feed in the same enclosure is simple convenience. It's a giant pain in the neck to do separate enclosure feedings when you have more than, oh, 10 snakes. Logistically it's impossible for large collections. But if you have one or two animals, and they are primarily pets and you handle them frequently, it's worth considering. Especially if they are already "nippy".

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Originally Posted by jfmoore

Justin, do you mean like this?

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...dscn2362-1.jpg

Room Temperature Rat


http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...dscn2366-1.jpg

Prey Temperature Hand

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Hahah. Sorry, that's awesome. Sorry! *snicker*

... But I get the idea Justin's getting this without there being any rats in play?

Right, I see a lot of posts from newer keepers who seem convinced that ball pythons are trainable, the way you would train a dog or cat, and while they're not incapable of learning, their behavior just isn't the same at all. There are also a lot of misconceptions there about how dogs and cats actually learn, but that's another story.

Snakes bite because they are frightened, or hungry, and that's it. They don't bite out of revenge, or because they've learned it gets them something that they want, the way a dog or bird would--I just have to repeat that, because it bears repeating.

A snake that is feeling calm and secure, and isn't hungry, will not bite. A snake that is frightened and upset will bite, and nothing you do will make it stop trying to bite, so long as that is the way it is feeling. It will never learn that 'biting doesn't work'. Biting is all that it has...its arsenal of solutions to problems is pretty limited. The more they practice a behavior, the more they are likely to repeat it--including behavior like biting your gloved hands.

my recommendation to deal with a defensive snake is to lift the hide, and immediately pick up the snake, from the side pointing away from its head. Don't snatch it up, or grab it from above--come from the side, without hesitation, and support the snake without restraining it.

Ball pythons RARELY bite a hand that they are sitting on, if they aren't being restrained. (I've seen it happen twice, but the snake had been seriously provoked in those instances, lol).

Allowing the snake to become upset and assume a defensive posture allows it to practice defensive behavior, which, in the long long run, then becomes habitual. If you can get it before it has a chance to become that upset, it will be more receptive to taming.

I do not recommend feeding the snake in a separate enclosure. There's no point.
Instead, get yourself a snake hook or a tap stick, and start working with the animal to hook train it, or use the tap stick to defuse its hunting or defensive behaviors.
Simply by gently pushing the animal's head down so it isn't poised to strike, you can get most ball pythons to stop trying to strike, and calm down or choose to ball up instead.

Snakes are smarter than we give them credit for, but they're not very bright animals. Still, every single one of them is an individual, and has a distinct personality. Some snakes simply will not tolerate being handled by a human--humans set off their defensive instincts, and they just don't learn not to try to ward us off. It's rare in ball pythons, but it's not unheard of.

I had one adult female who we could hook out and pick up, and handle, but she would occasionally take a shot at our body while we were holding her--she did not like humans, plain and simple. I sold her.

If your snake is irredeemably aggressive, you really have only two choices--love the snake for what it is, bad attitude and all, and handle it with a hook--or, sell it to someone who is more tolerant, and get a snake with a more typical ball python temperament.

Aggressive reptiles do have their fans. You may not be able to hold them on your lap while you watch TV, but they are still lovely, and interesting.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Hahah. Sorry, that's awesome. Sorry! *snicker*

... But I get the idea Justin's getting this without there being any rats in play?

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Who knows? I notice that was poor Justin's first post and what with all the expert advice, he may never come back. :D

I would like to pass along one tip, though, on how to get a snake to release its jaws without "jamming a pencil" in its mouth, or trying to just wait it out, as Justin mentioned. Trying to pry it off can potentially injure its delicate mouth and break off teeth, and, besides, it HURTS LIKE HELL when it realizes its "food" is trying to get away and it tries even harder to hold on.

I keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol and some q-tips in any snake room. Wet the cotton swab with alcohol and put it in the snakes mouth, preferably near where its tongue sits in the floor of its mouth, or in the roof of its mouth between the inner two rows of teeth (you're aiming here for the ducts which lead to the Jacobson's organ). But I'm making it sound difficult. In reality, once that snake gets a mouthful of that odor, its jaws will fly open. And it usually won't be in any hurry to grab you again before you unwrap its coils. It really works!

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Have you ever had a latch and wrap ball python bite? Have you ever had a ball python bite you and NOT LET GO for 5 minutes, until you finally jammed a pencil between its jaws? Only to have it immediately look around for another way to grab hold of you? It's a very, very different experience from 99.9% of ball python bites. And I'm 99.9% certain that that particular snake felt very good about chomping on my warm, deliciously bloody mammal finger that day.

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Yes, I have. I have been bit many times by different species of snakes. I have had a large ball python bite and coil with my thumb on it's mouth. I have had a male larger than most of our females strike from my hands down at my waste, and latch onto my chin all because he could smell a rat in the room and grabbed the first thing that moved. Every single one is the same. It is foolish to anthropomorphize an animal that is so incredibly instinctual in everything it does.

I should also mention that every single time I have been coiled by a snake, i have been able to carefully and calmly remove them. An icecube held up to the heat pits works like a charm. I admit full fault for these bites... I am not very careful about not smelling like rats around any of our snake smaller than the dumerils, as I don't jump or pull back when bit and I don't think it hurts that bad... when you own birds, your pain tolerance rises. I guarantee if you let your snake that "liked" chomping on you out at night and went to sleep, that it has not gained a taste for humans, or that it will seek you out to harm you

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Okay. If the OP said he feeds in a separate closure already, than that's what he does. And I read too quickly, so it's my mistake.

That said, I handle my ball pythons quite a lot. I have over a dozen of them. I have on more than one occasion been too lazy to remove a particular snake from its enclosure for several feedings in a row, only to have those same animals come shooting out in a very aggressive manner whenever I open my tanks/tubs, even on off-feeding days, while the rest of my collection ignored me in their usual manner. It's more pronounced during late summer. I have gotten a couple of hopeful feeding strike bites from my black pastel and het pied males as a result. They're not rocket scientists, these two, I admit it. But the feeding strikes stopped a week or two after I went back to separate enclosure feeding.

Most of the reason people feed in the same enclosure is simple convenience. It's a giant pain in the neck to do separate enclosure feedings when you have more than, oh, 10 snakes. Logistically it's impossible for large collections. But if you have one or two animals, and they are primarily pets and you handle them frequently, it's worth considering. Especially if they are already "nippy".

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

As each snake is an individual, it is theoretically possible for yours to have become vengeful mean creatures, but there are considerably more snakes for every supposed "cage aggressive" snake, whose behavior is not altered by location of feeding. There are snakes who may stop eating if you try to move them to another enclosure because it is stressful. There are snakes who will become more aggressive if fed in another enclosure... my point being, that without knowing the husbandry and set up of the OP's ball, we can't possibly give appropriate advice.

I'm really surprised at the amount of anthropomorphizing of animals in this thread.

FWIW, even dogs don't think in terms of "revenge" or "getting back" at someone. That's a human concept. Dogs do what has worked for them in the past. If you have a dog that learns it can guard one particular person from other people by snarling, snapping, biting, it will continue to do so because it can. It's not "being mean". It's being a dog.

And, no offence to snakes, but if dogs don't think in terms of vengeance or being mean, snakes certainly don't.

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Originally Posted by k8nkane

I'm really surprised at the amount of anthropomorphizing of animals in this thread.

FWIW, even dogs don't think in terms of "revenge" or "getting back" at someone. That's a human concept. Dogs do what has worked for them in the past. If you have a dog that learns it can guard one particular person from other people by snarling, snapping, biting, it will continue to do so because it can. It's not "being mean". It's being a dog.

And, no offence to snakes, but if dogs don't think in terms of vengeance or being mean, snakes certainly don't.

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If I did, i certainly didn't mean to imply that dogs are vengeful, but rather they learn differently from snakes.

Also.... my apologies to the OP, Isee you have only posted once, and I have allowed myself to veer off topic.

I feed him a small rat about once every 10-12 days. He has never refused a mouse/rat since I've had him. He's in a 45 gallon enclosure, kept at 87-90 on the hot end and 75-80 on the cool end(hides on either end). Humidity at about 70-80 percent. He's never had a bad shed either. I really hate to complain, he's in great shape besides the agressive behavior. I don't have a scale, so I cannot weigh him. That's the only time he's wrapped me. But he's bitten me on many other occasions. I try to hold him AT LEAST a few times a month. When he wrapped me I jerked a little bit, but waited it out, instead of prying him off me. I was a little worried about his teeth, but he fed with no issues 3 days later. He just never seems curious, always pissed off. Am I not feeding him enough?!? The second he sees my hand in his cage he rears his head back like he's gonna strike. I don't feed him in his cage, so I dunno what that's about. Thanks for the responses, it's appreciated. ...And I won't be getting rid of him, he is what he is, and he's still beautiful!

See if he will eat every 7-10 days instead and make sure he has 2 tight fitting hide boxes in that enclosure.

It sounds like he may just be a little hungry and skittish.

A great trick is to keep a small hand towel or stick or something by his tank. Try to take him out at least once or twice a week (wait a couple days after feeding for digestion) but cover his head with the towel or touch his neck to divert his attention. Then quickly scoop him up from under his body coming from behind him. Never reach in going directly toward his head or face.

If he's in his hide, just take the hide off quickly, set it aside, and proceed with the directions above.

Once he's out, let him crawl through your hands while you support him do he doesn't fall.

If you do this regularly he will get use to it and his attitude *should* change.

With a very few BPs, you need to follow these same rules that you'd follow with many larger snakes. There are sometimes some that are just naturally skittish in their enclosures all the time. Make him feel more secure and well fed and handle him a bit more following the tricks above and you'll be fine :)

To all the people above who say snakes cannot be trained...I have to say this: LOL. Pavlov and his dogs showed us that all animals that possess primal instincts can be conditioned through repetition. Though dogs differ in the fact that they possess a limbic system, they are still slaves to the primal instincts like any other animal: they live to eat, poop and sleep. They will love you because they know to recognize and "love" the person that gives them food...and even though snakes do not understand love and act out of primal instinct, they are still the same as far as recognition goes...they recognize your scent and act accordingly. If they're under-fed and subject to harsh conditions (which initiates stress), they will be violent. If they associate your scent with threat, they will habitually strike defensively. However, they can slowly be conditioned to be tame. As I've said in another thread, for example, my python curls up and stresses out when I use any soap other than lemon scented...and every time I use lemon scented soap, she is relaxed and roaming...otherwise, she will curl up for some time before doing so.

Snakes have two process based modes (given that they are not stressed): taste (flicker tongue) and react. If the first mode gives a negative taste, it is threatening and they react by striking. If the first mode yields a positive, they are relaxed and roam the territory. It's really that simple. Same goes for motion: when they poise to strike, it's usually after tasting the surroundings and deeming them threatening.

To OP: trying washing your hands thoroughly (with different scented soaps) before handling him. The new scents will throw him off the one he's used to and then slowly you can return him back to recognize your scent as safe. As someone said above, grab him quickly when you reach...hesitation only makes them tense. They're not the brightest animals and it's very easy to condition them: just takes time and patience.

God made every creature capable of learning and adapting: but he didn't make it easy :P

Hey I have an idea!!!

Why don't you all just stick to the question of the OP? I'm sure he thinks we're all nuts by now..

Jeeze.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Hey I have an idea!!!

Why don't you all just stick to the question of the OP? I'm sure he thinks we're all nuts by now..

Jeeze.

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Well no question about that... I admit insanity.

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Originally Posted by Justin05

I feed him a small rat about once every 10-12 days. He has never refused a mouse/rat since I've had him. He's in a 45 gallon enclosure, kept at 87-90 on the hot end and 75-80 on the cool end(hides on either end). Humidity at about 70-80 percent. He's never had a bad shed either. I really hate to complain, he's in great shape besides the agressive behavior. I don't have a scale, so I cannot weigh him. That's the only time he's wrapped me. But he's bitten me on many other occasions. I try to hold him AT LEAST a few times a month. When he wrapped me I jerked a little bit, but waited it out, instead of prying him off me. I was a little worried about his teeth, but he fed with no issues 3 days later. He just never seems curious, always pissed off. Am I not feeding him enough?!? The second he sees my hand in his cage he rears his head back like he's gonna strike. I don't feed him in his cage, so I dunno what that's about. Thanks for the responses, it's appreciated. ...And I won't be getting rid of him, he is what he is, and he's still beautiful!

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It sounds like you have a great attitude about the whole situation, which is good =) If you don't already, you might try adding lots of hiding places in your enclosure to help him feel more secure.

Foschi had some good advice for safely getting him out of the tank without getting bit. The towel distraction is helpful.

How big is your ball, and what size rat do you feed him? My big male that came flying at my face, turns out, was only calm and docile when he had a huge rat in his belly. He ate more frequently than any of our other snakes, and seemed to only be friendly/content when heading towards obesity. :rolleyes:

Pay no attention to us, we are all a little nuts around here. :rolleye2:

That being said, I'm guessing he's a little bit hungry most of the time, and I don't know about you, but I tend to be crabby when I'm hungry. It is also possible he's a little bit stressed, depending on the size of his hides. Some of my guys prefer to wear their hides like hats.

You don't mention if you have the back and sides of his tank covered or blacked out. I know that can be a big issue with balls kept in tanks, they feel exposed on all sides and it makes them jumpy.

Give feeding every 7 days a try, and see if his attitude improves any. I will also tell you from experience, almost every one of my balls will "S" up when I reach in the tub, especially when I come at their face. The trick is knowing when that is a "Are you going to hurt me ?" pose, and when it is a "Come any closer and I'll let you have it!" pose.

I find having a long handled plastic spoon with me can be very useful. If I get a warning pose, I gently reach in with the spoon and lightly tap the head, letting the snake know I'm going to pick it up so it needs to just relax. This works for me a good 90% of the time. It was especially helpful with my import female, who had a very nervous demeanor at first. Once she accepted I was not going to hurt her, but she was not getting out of being held, now I can get her without the spoon.

I wish you all the best.

Gale