Sick Herp Help

Recently, we have been having a lot of trouble with sick reptiles. I work at petsmart and I know that I keep a close eye on the reptiles care, temps, cages. I know that we are providing them the best care we possibly could. Last week or the end of the week before, one of the groomers from petsmart came to me and told me that one of her baby ball pythons had fallen ill. It had a swollen mouth, its nose was bubbling and runny, and it keeps gasping. I told her it sounded like a respiratory infection and it needed to see a vet, however, because of the holiday, the vets would not be open for a day or two. So she separated her baby ball from the rest of her reptiles and made sure its cage was kept clean, and that the heat was on point, if not a bit higher than normal. I also recommended putting some reptiboost in his water to give him energy that he sorely needed and electrolytes and vitamins. The reptiboost helped him out a lot by keeping him strong. She took him to the vet and the vet said it looked like he bit something and his mouth got infected. The infection then spread to his lungs. He was put on antibiotics. However, the poor little one didn’t make it. He passed a few days later.

Later that week she came to me again and said that her other baby was gasping. Imagine my horror. She took the little girl right away, determined not to lose her too. She spent over $150 on antibiotics, tests, and appointments. All for not, she came to me today and said that she died as well.

At practically the same time, Thursday of last week I believe, I pulled my Russian tortoise out at the store to show a customer and I realized right away that the poor thing was sick. His nose was bubbling, mucus around his mouth, eyes crusty, coughing, gasping. I rushed him to the vet right away. The tortoise was fine the day before. I have been a bit nervous since the groomer lost her babies and I’ve been checking everybody. He looked perfectly healthy. The vet (different vet btw) said that it was an upper respiratory infection, and that she “THOUGHT it MAY be viral.” He was given antibiotics once a day and placed in the quiet room (for sick animals, less stressful). His temperature was kept a bit hotter than normal, uvb/uva light, clean cage. He died Saturday, 2 days later.

2 or 3 hours later on that same Thursday I was feeding the snakes when I got to the ball pythons. I picked up the first baby ball and my heart dropped. There was extra mucus in his mouth. The vet had already gone for the day so she went the next day. Surprise surprise she was diagnosed with a respiratory infection. She is being treated with antibiotics orally once a day. She is also in the quiet room with a higher than normal heat. It was about 98/99 degrees in her tank when I left for today. But she is regressing. Her nose is bubbling now and I don’t get it.

There has to be something I’m missing. I am scared that my reptiles at home are going to get sick. I can’t stand it. I’m especially worried about my Ball Python Flicker since it seems to be hitting ball pythons especially. I raised her from a hatchling. We’ve been together for 13 years now, I can’t lose her now… Please can you see anything that I missed? I need help. If you need more info on anything just let me know.


:snake:Fell

Hello Fell. :) Welcome to BP.net.

I'm sorry to see you've joined under such horrible circumstances, and what little explanation I can offer is not likely to make you feel any better. For which, I apologize.

First, if the vet that the reptiles have been seeing that finally diagnosed their illnesses as a respiratory infection is not a Herp Vet, I would find another ASAP. If she/he is a herp specialist, then they should have been able to tell you that if the infection is in fact viral as he/she expects, it is not treatable with antibiotics. Just as a human virus is not treatable with antibiotics.

My first BP came down with a horrible respiratory infection that the vet thought might be viral. She did not make it, sadly. And every time one of my snakes makes any sort of strange noise now, I immediately check for every sign of a respiratory infection that I'm aware of. Your experience has been particularly horrible.

The only way to know for sure what type of bacteria or virus is affecting the reptiles specifically is either to do a tracheal flush, or a necropsy on one of the deceased animals. I recommend attempting to have the latter done. Suggest to your manager or to the vet, whomever it takes, that a necropsy is done as soon as possible. That way the store will have a better idea of what they are dealing with and so will you.

Until then however, if antibiotics have proven unsuccessful in the past, preemptively treating your snake with Baytril or some other antibiotic is unlikely to help. Therefore, until you know what you're dealing with, I suggest that you avoid being around or handling your snake when you come home from work. Take a shower as soon as you get home, and put your uniforms in the wash. Do not touch or come in contact with anything that was at your work or around the sick animals and then go near your snake. If you do have to handle the clothes you wore, be sure to wash thoroughly before touching your snake, and if possible, before going in the room where your snake is kept. I know it sounds like a lot, but viral infections are VERY contagious, as you have seen. Watch your snake carefully for any signs of abnormal behavior or respiratory infection. If you notice ANYTHING out of the ordinary, take your snake to a vet immediately and let them know you suspect a possible viral infection if you have not had that confirmed via necropsy yet.

I really wish you the best of luck with this, and I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help. I'm sure there are others on the site who may have greater insight to add. Hopefully someone else will be able to shed more light on this.

Also, I forgot to mention...Ball pythons are extremely prone to respiratory infections. They are easily stressed and as such, are more likely to contract such illnesses. In my experience, balls are particularly susceptible to respiratory issues.

now i'm horrified.. I have 3 snakes with "RI's.." but its been 3 months for 1 and for th other two about 1.

I would GUESS it's viral..? A RI shouln't kill that fast...they're a few people on here with ALOT more experience then myself but I can't give you any more then that. I'd say separate ALL the animals to try and find the sicks ones and the healthy ones, BUT since it's a store that's easier said then done..

All I can do is wish you luck, and advise anyone from holding them.

Where's Skiploder? He's IMO the expert on RIs on this board!

I would say your friend's husbrandry is at fault if her snakes are all falling ill to RIs. Were the sick snakes showing any other signs of ill health other that the RI symptoms (regurging, stargazing, etc?)

As for orally treating RIs, I believe injectable antibiotics do so much better than oral applications. I would recommend discussing doing injectables with the vet. Also is the 98/99 degrees hot spot temps? If so, I would lower it a tad since that seems a bit too high (IMO). I bumped my one girl's hot spot temps to ~95 when she came to me with an RI and after 30 days of injectable Baytril shots she got cured of it.

As for protecting your snakes: wash and sanitize your hands before coming home and right when you get home. I wouldn't worry about your snakes catching anything though as long as you're strict with santizing yourself after being around the sickly petstore snakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Where's Skiploder? He's IMO the expert on RIs on this board!

I would say your friend's husbrandry is at fault if her snakes are all falling ill to RIs. Were the sick snakes showing any other signs of ill health other that the RI symptoms (regurging, stargazing, etc?)

As for orally treating RIs, I believe injectable antibiotics do so much better than oral applications. I would recommend discussing doing injectables with the vet. Also is the 98/99 degrees hot spot temps? If so, I would lower it a tad since that seems a bit too high (IMO). I bumped my one girl's hot spot temps to ~95 when she came to me with an RI and after 30 days of injectable Baytril shots she got cured of it.

As for protecting your snakes: wash and sanitize your hands before coming home and right when you get home. I wouldn't worry about your snakes catching anything though as long as you're strict with santizing yourself after being around the sickly petstore snakes.

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I was going to mention Skip but didn't want other people to feel left out. :P
Also Day a question...how often did you administer baytril? every day or every other?

To the OP. If you do get injectables, stray away from ceftazidime, AKA Fortaz. It helps with Mouth Rot, but not the RI itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

I was going to mention Skip but didn't want other people to feel left out. :P
Also Day a question...how often did you administer baytril? every day or every other?

To the OP. If you do get injectables, stray away from ceftazidime, AKA Fortaz. It helps with Mouth Rot, but not the RI itself.

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Sorry to jump in here...but when I did Baytril injections my vet had me administer them every other day, and boy did my girl come to dread those things. Poor baby. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Where's Skiploder? He's IMO the expert on RIs on this board!

I would say your friend's husbrandry is at fault if her snakes are all falling ill to RIs. Were the sick snakes showing any other signs of ill health other that the RI symptoms (regurging, stargazing, etc?)

As for orally treating RIs, I believe injectable antibiotics do so much better than oral applications. I would recommend discussing doing injectables with the vet. Also is the 98/99 degrees hot spot temps? If so, I would lower it a tad since that seems a bit too high (IMO). I bumped my one girl's hot spot temps to ~95 when she came to me with an RI and after 30 days of injectable Baytril shots she got cured of it.

As for protecting your snakes: wash and sanitize your hands before coming home and right when you get home. I wouldn't worry about your snakes catching anything though as long as you're strict with santizing yourself after being around the sickly petstore snakes.

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it may have been her husbandry at fault. But she works in the store with the reptiles. and she got a snake from us not too long before her ball pythons got sick. i dont know if that would have affected it. I even think that her son held a ball python before finally deciding on a corn snake. i dont know im really at a loss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WarriorPrincess90

Sorry to jump in here...but when I did Baytril injections my vet had me administer them every other day, and boy did my girl come to dread those things. Poor baby. :P

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my "new" vet did every other day ORALY. I am going to do injections, at $1,200 a bottle though... (his price to make money) I'm going to get a prescription and do it myself. -_-; All three of mine are clearing up now

Sorry, I didn't mean to take your thread!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

I was going to mention Skip but didn't want other people to feel left out. :P
Also Day a question...how often did you administer baytril? every day or every other?

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Every day for a full 30 days kicked her RI. I also raised her temps as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheFellCrow

it may have been her husbandry at fault. But she works in the store with the reptiles. and she got a snake from us not too long before her ball pythons got sick. i dont know if that would have affected it. I even think that her son held a ball python before finally deciding on a corn snake. i dont know im really at a loss.

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If she got a snake from the store which was indeed sick then the others would have only gotten sick as well if she didn't quarantine and santize inbetween caring for her established collection and the new addition(s). If she didn't practice QT, then unfortunatly her collection's sickness is on her. Quarantine is key with new additions!

The following is only from experience: When my girl had an RI (came to me with it) she was in a quarantine rack with fellow snakes: one being the other snake that I purchased her with who was transported with her. They were in close space with each other and just by santizing in between holding the sick snake and caring for the others, santizing the QT tongs when feeding each snake, and keeping an eye on the other healthy ones made it so the RI didn't spread to anyone else. RI's can pass between snakes, but from my experience they arn't as easily transmitted as others have delt with.

I would recommend separating your friend's sick snakes from any others of hers that appear to be healthy but wouldn't rule out that the healthy ones may indeed already be sick: from getting the RIs from the other snakes or by bad husbandry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

$1,200 a bottle though

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:O A bottle? I paid ~$40 for 30 days worth of Baytril! (plus some ~$10 for all the syringes)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

Where's Skiploder? He's IMO the expert on RIs on this board!

I would say your friend's husbrandry is at fault if her snakes are all falling ill to RIs. Were the sick snakes showing any other signs of ill health other that the RI symptoms (regurging, stargazing, etc?)

As for orally treating RIs, I believe injectable antibiotics do so much better than oral applications. I would recommend discussing doing injectables with the vet. Also is the 98/99 degrees hot spot temps? If so, I would lower it a tad since that seems a bit too high (IMO). I bumped my one girl's hot spot temps to ~95 when she came to me with an RI and after 30 days of injectable Baytril shots she got cured of it.

As for protecting your snakes: wash and sanitize your hands before coming home and right when you get home. I wouldn't worry about your snakes catching anything though as long as you're strict with santizing yourself after being around the sickly petstore snakes.

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sorry.. i missed your question... the snakes were acting fine. the ball in my care was acting like a perfectly healthy little snake. in fact when I realized she was sick it wasnt because she was acting like she was sick. i was already on hyper alert because the vet said she thought the tortoise was viral. so when i picked her up i was looking very closely at her mouth... i saw a faint sign of mucus and didnt take a chance... my problem is that its progressing so rapidly we cant seem to hinder it at all

ok... now that my initial horror has worn off. Where do viral infections come from? could it breed from unsanitary conditions in store? or does it come from other reptiles... if so then it could completely be possible that it came from our breeder. out of the reptiles that fell sick in store, the tortoise was the first (judging by his rate of regression) so maybe the breeder of the tort. i will have to find out who comes from what breeder if that is the case.

No, viral infections ONLY come from contact with infected animals--they can be transmitted by parasites such as mites, as well, sometimes--mites that have been on infected animals.

This sounds like a lethal respiratory virus, perhaps something like paramyxovirus. They can kill very rapidly. You NEED to get a necropsy done on one of the deceased animals to confirm the cause of death. If this is one of the lethal viruses, then it is HIGHLY contagious, and all animals that have come into contact with a sick one have been exposed. Other reptiles in the store are also at risk.

NONE of these animals should be sold to or handled by the public. These diseases are killers--a customer could handle one of the animals that isn't even showing signs yet, and then bring the virus home and infect their own pets.

Warn all of the breeders that have sent you animals. Some of these viruses have an incubation period of up to 11 months, in some cases. If it is one of these viruses, then all of the reptiles in your store should be quarantined for a year. That's harsh, and your store owner will NOT like it. If that's what comes back, they may need to euthanize the affected animals (unless they have someone willing to care for them in strict quarantine for a year), and disinfect everything, discarding anything that cannot be thoroughly disinfected. (Use something strong that's made for killing diseases like Newcastle's).

Some of the bad viruses are survivable--with long term supportive care and antibiotics to control secondary infections, a quarter of them MIGHT make it through alive. That depends on which virus it is, though. Some of the viruses can remain in the animals after they recover (they become carriers), while others won't.

I don't know of any of the viral RIs in reptiles that are not highly lethal. (Does anyone else?)

Half measures are not acceptable--if this is a virus, then everything the infected animals came into contact with is a potential source of contagion for other reptiles, and could remain so for a very long time. It is vitally important to get a diagnoses.

heres todays status.

our last russian tortoise died without showing any signs of sickness. he passed overnight

the baby ball python is still alive and looks like hes perking up a bit.. i hope he will pull through

one of our corn snakes is now showing signs of sickness. mucus discharge from mouth

our striped california kingsnake is now showing signs of sickness. mucus discharge from mouth

our water dragon is now showing signs of sickness. mucus discharge from mouth


we only have a baby ball python, baby corn snake, 3 anoles, sand boa, 3 baby leopard geckos, an apricot milksnake, and 2 baby beardies still healthy.

i told the manager in charge of all of the reptiles that we needed a necropsis. he has to take it up with the district manager. thats the problem with big pet stores... too many procedures if you ask me.

we have everything we need plus an indoor vet which is convenient and useful

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheFellCrow

heres todays status.

our last russian tortoise died without showing any signs of sickness. he passed overnight

the baby ball python is still alive and looks like hes perking up a bit.. i hope he will pull through

one of our corn snakes is now showing signs of sickness. mucus discharge from mouth

our striped california kingsnake is now showing signs of sickness. mucus discharge from mouth

our water dragon is now showing signs of sickness. mucus discharge from mouth


we only have a baby ball python, baby corn snake, 3 anoles, sand boa, 3 baby leopard geckos, an apricot milksnake, and 2 baby beardies still healthy.

i told the manager in charge of all of the reptiles that we needed a necropsis. he has to take it up with the district manager. thats the problem with big pet stores... too many procedures if you ask me.

we have everything we need plus an indoor vet which is convenient and useful

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You need to quarantine them all SEPARATELY. Like I said before easier said then done.... You have to have a sick Herp that is getting all the others sick.

Most likely, all of the sick herps are getting the others sick.
The ones that look healthy could be incubating the illness, which means if any of them are sold, the customer will bring home an animal that may get sick and die, and infect any other reptiles they have.
The ONLY responsible (and remotely ethical) thing to do is to pull them all into the back room, and do not get more in until the issue is solved.

This sounds like one of the scariest illnesses I've heard of so far--affecting turtles, lizards and snakes. Paramyxo is generally only found in snakes, so it's less likely to be that...but that doesn't leave any obvious known viruses. This could be something new, or little known, if it is viral. With the sudden onset and so many deaths, it sure sounds likely.

Found this, which may be helpful to read:
www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/3/11/2087/pdf

It sounds like a ranavirus is one possibility.

unfortuneatly petsmart has a system that we cannot control. a new shipment of reptiles is on its way.. should show up tomorrow. we will quarantine them from the everything else in the new arrival room. however, if what you said is true and it comes from an infected reptile then it had to start somewhere. the most probable(sp?) place it came from is our own breeder. we do not allow contact with customers' reptiles. the first to fall sick was the small russian tortoise. who had just shown up.. i believe the day before. I will have to check our shipments. but every one of our reptiles comes from the same place. The kingsnake and corn snake have been in store for months. the kingsnake for at least 5 months

I do hope that you can convince the manager not to sell anything. These viruses (if that's what it is) can wipe out entire collections, and pose a serious threat to native reptiles. Discarding infected bedding outdoors could wind up transmitting the illness to wildlife. It's vitally important to contain the problem when it's recognized.
(I don't know what's up with the smiley face on this post, and I can't figure out how to remove it, so don't think I'm happy about this).

i cant stop them from coming but there are few enough that i should be able to isolate them. i made the petcare manager realize how serious the situation was, and we will lose them all without quick action. now we do have 2 seperate rooms we can put the animals in away from people. if everyday I inspect the reptiles for any slight sign of sickness then i can put them in the quiet room for care. we are not like most pet stores. we do have a room for intensive medical care. we will not give up on these guys, my problem is slowing down the progression of whatever they have long enough to help them. some of them are just dropping with no sign

we did decide on a planwe have in store something called reptiboost. its a powder that gives reptiles the vitamins and nutrients that it needs. the groomer aforementioned was using it on her first ball python because i told her to and it boosted her up incredibly. even though she passed it still gave her the strenght to hold on for awhile longer. so we will give the reptiboost to all of the reptiles. the ones sick will recieve it orally daily. we are going to put it in the water bowls of the reptiles that are not sick and keep an eye on them to make sure they are still drinking.

lol i was wondering about the smiley. we do not dump anything outside. everything is disposed of properly. lol we cant get away with a pee puddle lying unnoticed. theres no way we would get away with dumping anything even if we wanted to.

ok... well im going to do some research. im off tomorrow but im probably going in to check on everyone so i will give another status report

I know the store doesn't dump things outside--but owners who bring home an animal that later dies, might.

Make sure manager also realizes that all enclosures and equipment must be disinfected with the strongest stuff you can find, and anything that can't be, has to be thrown. If you put the new animals in infected enclosures, they're sure to get sick.

we disinfect enclosures weekly. everything that is in the cage beside bedding is able to be completely disinfected. bowls, toys, chews, hides, logs, carpets, fake plants. everything. bowls are disinfected daily. if an animal dies it is immediately taken to the vet for proper disposal. if immediate transfer to the vet is unavailable then the animal is then placed in a freezer effectively killing anything that may be harmful in the cadaver as well as preserving the animal so that it may be disposed of with the respect and care that it is due. if an animal is sold then the cage is disinfected that day. its a really strong disinfectant that is safe for animals. not so safe for us though. we dont play around with our animals health. this is just the normal cleaning procedure for our animals.

we also have a 14 day garauntee (sp? sorry im dyslexic) so hopefully thatll cover any sick reptiles that might have already gone. we havent sold any reptiles for acouple days . at least i havent. i didnt look at the sales records but i do believe that all of them are still there.

i was looking at different viruses that it could be and I think i will have to count out the ranavirus it isnt know to affect a lot of snakes. and ball pythons, kings, and corns are not included.

The ranavirus was documented in a green tree python, so I wouldn't be too sure. A necropsy is probably the only hope of a real answer.

I'm very glad to hear that they do take such care with disinfecting (I've seen too many pet stores that don't).

Well the king,corn, and mountain horned dragon appear to not be sick anymore... they have no more excess mucus... the ball python is no longer bubbling from his nose and the only sign is excess mucus in his mouth, but you have to open his mouth to see it..... we lost a different ball python that was out on the sales floor. It was curled up with a live snake when it passed. The live snake looks fine but I moved him into the quiet room... if they do a necropsy it will take 3 weeks to get results in.

All animals are staying in the quiet room until we can be sure of their health

Ok... we got everything cleared up. We decided to assume all of our reptiles were sick and to be treated as such since we didn't always know which ones were sick. The sickest were moved to the quiet room. The reptiles that came in including a chameleon were isolated in the new arrival room. They were all treated with a liquid baytril that was added to their water and refreshed daily. Everyone has been given a clean bill of health. We used undiluted watchdog to disefect everything that we used for the reptiles and there has been no relapses.

From a monetary standpoint for those wondering-
2russian torts $200
3 ball pythons $240
That's just the animals we spent over $1000 crushing this sickness.

Also have joined due to death of two bps. Need help! I had my mojave male and normal female in same tank for months. Have had both for over a year and even had a successful clutch from them. To start they were both fine then one night two weeks ago i came in and mojave male was unresponsive. His temp was 82. Put into warm water then he "gasped" for lack if better term then died. We thought respiratory infection but female didnt show any symptoms. Mojave breathing was perfect never missed a meal. Was active and alert that morning. Now two weeks later my female (fine this morning ) found dead. Please help! I have 12 others kept in separate room (never been exposed to each other) and we wash hands before going to them. Dont want to loose the rest. They were kept on aspen bedding with heat lamp and oad. Warm side average 96 cool side 78 average. Had fresh water. Humidity was good. Please any advise?!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

my "new" vet did every other day ORALY. I am going to do injections, at $1,200 a bottle though... (his price to make money) I'm going to get a prescription and do it myself. -_-; All three of mine are clearing up now

Sorry, I didn't mean to take your thread!

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That is a rip off! If you get a script, you can get it here:
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e079f2-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&item=328RX&ccd=IFF003&utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_ content=328RX&adtype=pla&kwd={keyword}&gclid=CN3ctOrk-rICFROe4AodoTYAcA

Or here:
http://www.vetdepot.com/baytril-enro...ble-20-ml.html

Just depends on what size bottle you need.