question about ethicality of producing hybrids

how does everyone feel about hybridizations? should we just because we can? i'm leaning toward the just because we can.

im all for it, as long as you are responsible enough to keep appropriate records of everything you do with every snake involved in a hybrid project. such as recording every snake another snake has been bred with in the past, so that people know its been bred to another species. lets say you breed a male woma to a female bp, and end up selling the female bp, let the person know that it had been previously bred with a male woma. that way, incase theres any sperm retention and the bp produces an odd looking hatchling by the person you sold it too, they would know that its possibly part woma. and imo, you should only sell a hybrid to people who are responsible enough to not let it go later on as a single species snake. for instance, if you were to have an F2 superball, that doesnt really have any blood/ borneo resemblance, you should never let it go to someone who could possibly sell it as just a cool looking ball python.

The place it gets tricky to me is that snake hybrids are usually fertile. If they are represented as hybrids and any offspring are represented as hybrids then to each his own. Where I would consider it unethical is if hybrids or their descendants are misrepresented as being of pure stock. I can picture some jackass (hybrid!) passing off F2 or F3 hybrids that look like one parent species as pure just to make a buck. Or maybe getting big bucks for a new morph that is nothing but a mutt.

Some of the hybrids are quite beautiful. They aren't my thing.

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Originally Posted by cmack91

im all for it, as long as you are responsible enough to keep appropriate records of everything you do with every snake involved in a hybrid project. such as recording every snake another snake has been bred with in the past, so that people know its been bred to another species. lets say you breed a male woma to a female bp, and end up selling the female bp, let the person know that it had been previously bred with a male woma. and imo, you should only sell to people who are responsible enough to not let it go later on as a single species snake. for instance, if you were to have an F2 superball, that doesnt really have any blood/ borneo resemblance, you should never let it go to someone who could possibly sell it as just a cool looking ball python.

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x2 I agree with Everything you said. I can understand the other sid of the argument that people make, but if responsible people are doing the breeding then whats the big deal really imo?

This is a very touchy subject. I believe that if done responsibly and is done with proper documentation, it is fine. I personally plan on producing a carpet python/green tree python cross. I will be keeping all offspring and will not be breeding them in the future. I think that the issue with hybrids comes when they get out into the public without being documented as such.

wow, in the short time it took me to edit my post to have it worded corrctly, three more posts popped up, i have a feeling this will be a very long thread

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Originally Posted by cmack91

wow, in the short time it took me to edit my post to have it worded corrctly, three more posts popped up, i have a feeling this will be a very long thread

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Hybrid threads always are. People have opinions across the board, and you've got people who think it isn't acceptable/ethical, and people who are for it. I personally don't see an issue as long as it's done with documentation (as others have said). I'm particularly fond of Woma/Ball python hybrids, and want one as a pet. Hybrids can be difficult, and I don't feel like producing it myself. However, there are going to be a lot of people who think it is irresponsible and refuse to buy from breeders known to produce hybrids, and that's their choice. Opinions are like... well, you get the idea

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Originally Posted by Valentine Pirate

Hybrid threads always are.

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so ive noticed lol, as of now, im just gonna stay out of it haha

when talking about hybrids, i think of "superballs"... i dont think that there is anything wrong with hyrids, but as the other posts before me have said,,, if its done responsibaly.
just from what i know,, and think as of now, a F1 superball doesent look anything like a BP, or a blood,, and the F2's kinda dont resemble eigther one (origional parrents, or F1's) so as long as the "hybrid" stays true (hybrid X hybrid), i couldent see there being a problem with misrepresentation.. BUT,,, when a hybrid is bred back to the origional parrent (blood python/ ball python) the features start to resemble the said parrents, and this is where the trouble might begin..
im all for hybrids, but i can also understand the concerns of those that might be against it. as far as the "ethics" part goes, we keep snakes in out homes, is that ethical? though most of the BP's we have today are C/B, there are alot being exported from Africa, is that ethical? im in no position to talk ethics,, that would kinda be like the pot calling the kettle black.
thanks
spooky

i would like to thank everyone for their input on this topic you have all given me some more things to think about . and seeing as i've got some time before i get this project going i have some serious brain storming to do. thanks again.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

when talking about hybrids, i think of "superballs"... i dont think that there is anything wrong with hyrids, but as the other posts before me have said,,, if its done responsibaly.
just from what i know,, and think as of now, a F1 superball doesent look anything like a BP, or a blood,, and the F2's kinda dont resemble eigther one (origional parrents, or F1's) so as long as the "hybrid" stays true (hybrid X hybrid), i couldent see there being a problem with misrepresentation.. BUT,,, when a hybrid is bred back to the origional parrent (blood python/ ball python) the features start to resemble the said parrents, and this is where the trouble might begin..
im all for hybrids, but i can also understand the concerns of those that might be against it. as far as the "ethics" part goes, we keep snakes in out homes, is that ethical? though most of the BP's we have today are C/B, there are alot being exported from Africa, is that ethical? im in no position to talk ethics,, that would kinda be like the pot calling the kettle black.
thanks
spooky

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I wouldn't mention the point of Bps still being exported from Africa here, as it started with Bps being exported from Africa so the fact it's still happening should not be debated just because local breeders are trying to make a buck from C/Bs... The fact that you own or may own a Bp contributes to the exportation anyway, just buying one BP contributes to market demand...

Why not mention/debate it? There are plenty of people on either side of exporting wild caught ball pythons from Africa. You will have some people saying it provides new blood to the captive population and we are still discovering new morphs. And then you have people on the other side of the fence who think we have a good captive population and there is no need to import any wild caught specimens. Then you have the people that just don't care either way.

I think the people on this forum are always up for a good debate. You shouldn't tell them "the fact it's still happening should not be debated."

For hybrids, I think as long as the pairing, parents, resulting offspring, etc are well documented and sold/rehomed responsibly, I see no problem with it. I may even produce a few hybrids myself in a few years. Now, people will argue, "It's not natural." or "We shouldn't play god." but people play god on a daily basis. A god put trees in a certain area for a certain reason and we plow them down to put in a mall. A god puts two snakes on two different continents but who's to say in millions of years those two continents would collide and those species would naturally hybridize. We are creating these hybrids for personal collections, not for releasing into the wild.

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Originally Posted by superpastel37

should we just because we can?

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No

I do not believe that any endangered or threatened species should be hybridized. If the animals aren't secure in the wild, then captive populations may be needed as a reservoir population. (No matter what 'officials' say, if it comes down to the wire, animals in the hands of private owners can and will be used in captive breeding programs to re-establish a species). If you work with an endangered or threatened species, you should keep meticulous records, and pay attention to bloodlines--that is part of the responsibility in keeping such animals.

Apart from that, if the species is secure in the wild and likely to be so for a long time to come, I don't see the issue with hybrids. Ball pythons are actually an excellent example. There is no conceivable circumstance under which ball pythons would ever need to be repatriated to the wild. Ball pythons living in the US or Europe are pets, and will always be pets. It doesn't make any difference whether or not our pets are hybrids. They're in the process of being domesticated. Eventually, there will be no point in importing them any longer, and within a few decades they will become distinctly different from their wild ancestors, anyhow.

An exception is when a species is native the area where it's being raised--I don't think corn snakes should be hybridized, because escaped animals may introduce hybrid blood to the environment.

On the other hand, a truth that can't be denied is this: Hybridization occurs in the wild, and is part of the tool chest for evolution. If Pantherophis and Lampropeltis hybridize in captivity, it's not inconceivable that they may do so in the wild, anyhow.
Hybridization is not some ultimate crime--it's part of the evolutionary process. Whether or not it is 'ok' for humans to create hybrids is very situational.

I think hybrids are fine if done responsibly. I also believe, no matter how many people think otherwise, that they will ultimately become fairly prevalent in the hobby. Let's face it, with ball pythons, we've got to be near the end of the road as far as imported ground breaking morphs go. Sure there are endless combinations yet to be done, and some new stuff will pop up here and there, but what is it going to be like 10-20 years down the road. People are always looking for new/exciting/extreme, and I think hybrids will play into that somewhere along the line.

I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to snakes, so I personally do not like hybrids. Heck, I bought a normal ball from a breeder with AMAZING morphs. That is not to say that I will never get a morph, I have every intention of doing so, I think they are gorgeous and I love admiring all the morphs you guys have, but I have a huge soft spot for normals; I love the animal in its natural state as much as I love the morphs. I actually do not look at $5,000 morphs and see them as more beautiful that the $100 ones. I see the cost as a reflection of the rarity and the breeding effort required to produce the animal, not a reflection of greater beauty. Of course, that is my preference, and it in no way makes your preference wrong.

So as I state my further opinions on hybrids, understand that I am merely stating my preferences and in no way bashing yours if you LOVE hybrids. Just stating why I will never have one.

I personally do not like drastic, unnatural manipulation. When BP morphs are bred, the breeder is merely enhancing what nature already designed, unlocking a color palate already hidden in the genetic code. That is a beautiful, fascinating process. But when a hybrid is bred, the genetic code is unnaturally altered, bringing together two strands of DNA never intended to mix. It creates some beautiful animals, but where do they belong? What are their care requirements? What detrimental effect could the paring have on the offspring? Of course, these are questions only answered by trying it, and there are many people who are not only willing to try, but desperate to try, looking for the next great trend. If you are one of those people, there is nothing wrong with you, provided you place great importance on the care of the animals. I am not one of those people, however. I much prefer unlocking and discovering what nature already designed, not combining two things that were just fine on their own.

If you are a hybrid breeder, more power to you. I personally may not be one of your buyers, but you can be certain plenty of buyers are out there! Like everything else in this hobby, I think the answer lays in the intent of the breeder. Are you breeding a hybrid for the love of the animal, or for the love of profit and bragging rights? If you love your hybrid as much as you love your $5,000 BP morph, and you love that morph as much as you love your $40 normal, and all are healthy, happy, and have the best husbandry, than ethics need not be an issue, only preference.

hybrids are fine IF they are sterile or kept track of. by kept track if I mean not bread back to add morphs to a species, telling buyers what they are, or just not bred. king snakes can be a mess sometimes and so can carpet pythons from this mixing.



though i do like emily's post

I have issues with hybrids... I just dont approve. I do believe that it is more acceptable for hybrids that could possibly meet up in the wild Bateaters for example, natural habitats are extremely close to one another and even overlap in some places, making it atleast some what probable that it could happen in the wild. I would absolutely never own a 2 species hybrid animal personally and just believe that it should be left alone

But I am weird, I believe that carpet pythons even larger varieties are easily handle-able and should not be interbred to produce a smaller size, like IJ Jags..Jaguar is Coastal mutation and should have never been outcrossed.

I do however feel that animals like reticulated pythons that are basicly to large to be safely handled or owned by most, and breeding mainland retics to island dwarf, and super dwarf is smart. I do believe that lineage of these animals should be tracked and marketed as to what percent dwarf or superdwarf the animals are. I am by no means saying that this would do away with full sized mainland retic breeders, but it gives more people an opportunity to own something like a lavender retic safely.

So I guess what I am saying is I do not approve of 2 species hybrids, but believe that hybridizing localities is acceptable under certain circumstances. Just my thoughts

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Originally Posted by jjmitchell

I have issues with hybrids... I just dont approve. I do believe that it is more acceptable for hybrids that could possibly meet up in the wild Bateaters for example, natural habitats are extremely close to one another and even overlap in some places, making it atleast some what probable that it could happen in the wild. I would absolutely never own a 2 species hybrid animal personally and just believe that it should be left alone

But I am weird, I believe that carpet pythons even larger varieties are easily handle-able and should not be interbred to produce a smaller size, like IJ Jags..Jaguar is Coastal mutation and should have never been outcrossed.

I do however feel that animals like reticulated pythons that are basicly to large to be safely handled or owned by most, and breeding mainland retics to island dwarf, and super dwarf is smart. I do believe that lineage of these animals should be tracked and marketed as to what percent dwarf or superdwarf the animals are. I am by no means saying that this would do away with full sized mainland retic breeders, but it gives more people an opportunity to own something like a lavender retic safely.

So I guess what I am saying is I do not approve of 2 species hybrids, but believe that hybridizing localities is acceptable under certain circumstances. Just my thoughts

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You do know that carpet pythons hybridise in the wild right? Coastals and jungles share a lot of territory and they all can run into each other naturally. So what is the problem with carpet python hybrids?

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Originally Posted by Emily Hubbard

I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to snakes, so I personally do not like hybrids. Heck, I bought a normal ball from a breeder with AMAZING morphs. That is not to say that I will never get a morph, I have every intention of doing so, I think they are gorgeous and I love admiring all the morphs you guys have, but I have a huge soft spot for normals; I love the animal in its natural state as much as I love the morphs. I actually do not look at $5,000 morphs and see them as more beautiful that the $100 ones. I see the cost as a reflection of the rarity and the breeding effort required to produce the animal, not a reflection of greater beauty. Of course, that is my preference, and it in no way makes your preference wrong.

So as I state my further opinions on hybrids, understand that I am merely stating my preferences and in no way bashing yours if you LOVE hybrids. Just stating why I will never have one.

I personally do not like drastic, unnatural manipulation. When BP morphs are bred, the breeder is merely enhancing what nature already designed, unlocking a color palate already hidden in the genetic code. That is a beautiful, fascinating process. But when a hybrid is bred, the genetic code is unnaturally altered, bringing together two strands of DNA never intended to mix. It creates some beautiful animals, but where do they belong? What are their care requirements? What detrimental effect could the paring have on the offspring? Of course, these are questions only answered by trying it, and there are many people who are not only willing to try, but desperate to try, looking for the next great trend. If you are one of those people, there is nothing wrong with you, provided you place great importance on the care of the animals. I am not one of those people, however. I much prefer unlocking and discovering what nature already designed, not combining two things that were just fine on their own.

If you are a hybrid breeder, more power to you. I personally may not be one of your buyers, but you can be certain plenty of buyers are out there! Like everything else in this hobby, I think the answer lays in the intent of the breeder. Are you breeding a hybrid for the love of the animal, or for the love of profit and bragging rights? If you love your hybrid as much as you love your $5,000 BP morph, and you love that morph as much as you love your $40 normal, and all are healthy, happy, and have the best husbandry, than ethics need not be an issue, only preference.

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As a purist, how would you feel if you bought a normal ball, and it turned out that it was actually a hybrid?

I believe that is what many people worry about. If people start producing large numbers of hybrids and breeding them back to normal balls, the hatchlings may not look much different from a normal ball. They could then sell them as normal balls. Eventually, no one would know for sure if their balls are hybrids, or not.

Yes, but if folks had a bunch of ball pythons that might be hybrids...what difference would that make?
Would it make them worse pets?
Would it make them less attractive?

These are pet snakes, and they'll always be pet snakes. Designing them to be better suited as pets is good for them, as well as us. (Honestly, most reptile breeders need to wake up and start selecting for temperament).

I share your uneasiness with hybrids, don't get me wrong...but I also recognize that it's not entirely rational.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

You do know that carpet pythons hybridise in the wild right? Coastals and jungles share a lot of territory and they all can run into each other naturally. So what is the problem with carpet python hybrids?

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This would not be a hybrid, it would be an intergrade.

I see a lot of people saying that they don't have a problem with hybrids as long as they are properly labeled as such. The problem with that is that the track record of this hobby says it won't happen. Some are dishonest and others may pass of these animals without the knowledge of them being hybrids.

Anyone who looks deeply into milkshakes knows how big this issue really is. Did you know most of the Honduran milkshakes in the hobby are intergrades? "Milkheads" refer to them as "hobby hondos". Carpet python hobbiests should look closely at what has happened in the past with milks/kings because they are headed down a very similar path. Once the gene pools are " muddied" up there is no going back.

So weather people are lying about hybrids, or simply are just ignorant as to what a particular snake may be, I just fail to see how hybrids can be anything but bad for our hobby.

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Originally Posted by AGoldReptiles

This would not be a hybrid, it would be an intergrade.

I see a lot of people saying that they don't have a problem with hybrids as long as they are properly labeled as such. The problem with that is that the track record of this hobby says it won't happen. Some are dishonest and others may pass of these animals without the knowledge of them being hybrids.

Anyone who looks deeply into milkshakes knows how big this issue really is. Did you know most of the Honduran milkshakes in the hobby are intergrades? "Milkheads" refer to them as "hobby hondos". Carpet python hobbiests should look closely at what has happened in the past with milks/kings because they are headed down a very similar path. Once the gene pools are " muddied" up there is no going back.

So weather people are lying about hybrids, or simply are just ignorant as to what a particular snake may be, I just fail to see how hybrids can be anything but bad for our hobby.

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MILKSHAKES??????:confused::confused:
SPOOKY

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

MILKSHAKES??????:confused::confused:
SPOOKY

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Darn autocorrect :)

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

MILKSHAKES??????:confused::confused:
SPOOKY

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Now that sounds tasty. :rofl:

The only hybrid I would have issues with is one produced by using animals that are uncommon or rare when it comes to finding pure examples of said species.

Well that, and misrepresented hybrids.