If you think there is a difference between butter and lesser vote

Don't comment, don't cheat, just vote.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...r/DSCN0820.jpg

Lol,this is great!:gj:

*sorrt,didnt read the no comment bit. I voted though. Haha*

You forgot the option, "Doesn't matter, it's the same gene" :P

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

You forgot the option, "Doesn't matter, it's the same gene" :P

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x2.

I'm confused why the community still utilizes both labels when they are clearly the same, IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

You forgot the option, "Doesn't matter, it's the same gene" :P

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you choose that option by not voting, hence the title being what it is

interesting 6/6 spilt right now, seems even the people who believe they're different cannot agree on what a stereotypical lesser/butter looks like

so when should I reveal what they are? tomorrow night sometime?

I've been waiting for the reveal when I voted it was 4 votes for my choice and 0 for the other 3.

I read it as IF they are different which is which, so I gave it shot. I am also in the camp that they are the same morph.

I know the answer. The one on top is a :cens0r: and the one of the bottom is a :cens0r: HAHAHAHA

imho regardless of what title you appropriate to an animal (lesser/butter in this case) the only way i can truly say there is a difference is when you breed them into something else. say spider for instance. spider bee's and butter bee's look completely different. ive seen butter sthat look like lessers and lessers that look like butters. ive heard of people who back a few years ago would hatch out a butter looking lesser and sell it as a butter as they cost more at the time. so some who think they have butters have lessers and are making even more confusion.
adam jeffery
i just buy what i like and if the breeder says its a butter, that is what i say its babies are when they hatch

I should have not voted, then... I voted as a guess, but I think they're the same gene.

I've always viewed them as the same snake, different lines. If I had butters, I'd breed them to more yellowy snakes to improve that buttery goodness. If I had lessers, I'd breed them to bright, creamy silvery snakes to improve the qualities of those. But in general it seems they both grow up looking nearly identical no matter what they looked like as babies, lol!

And both of them are GAWGEOUS!

And then of course a ball python is a ball python is a ball python, be it a desert, pastel, pied, normal, or any other 'morph'. All the same snake, they all eat, poop, and hide. We choose the colors and patterns we like best, why get so worked up over morphs vs. lines and all the drama it causes?

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Originally Posted by adamjeffery

imho regardless of what title you appropriate to an animal (lesser/butter in this case) the only way i can truly say there is a difference is when you breed them into something else. say spider for instance. spider bee's and butter bee's look completely different.

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They look no more different than the varying of any other morph. Think how much spiders vary by themselves, or pastels, or even normals. It's wouldn't prove anything because since they are the same, the difference your seeing is the other 290348239 possible alleles that change how a snake looks, not the butter/lesser allele.

It's why we have dull pastels and bright yellow pastels. The pastel allele is exactly the same, the difference is the other possible alleles we cannot label.

also since when in the last couple years are butters and lessers different prices? I keep seeing it repeated over and over again, but for the most part see them in the 250-500 dollar range depending on quality.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

They look no more different than the varying of any other morph. Think how much spiders vary by themselves, or pastels, or even normals. It's wouldn't prove anything because since they are the same, the difference your seeing is the other 290348239 possible alleles that change how a snake looks, not the butter/lesser allele.

It's why we have dull pastels and bright yellow pastels. The pastel allele is exactly the same, the difference is the other possible alleles we cannot label.

also since when in the last couple years are butters and lessers different prices? I keep seeing it repeated over and over again, but for the most part see them in the 250-500 dollar range depending on quality.

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Exactly, when they first came on the scene everyone was saying the combos looked different, but it was just because the genepool was so small that all the offspring still looked very similar. Now that some time has passed and both lines have been outcrossed to countless normals and morphs, we see variation in the combos of both lines.

I voted both lessers. I too think they're both the same genetic mutation. I have both a butter and a lesser - and I only say that because they were sold that way so that's how I have them classified.

the point of this was to have the people who think their different vote..... not a guessing game. if their different there no guessing right?

So what's the answer??

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Originally Posted by mpkeelee

So what's the answer??

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when poll closes

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Originally Posted by Driver

I know the answer. The one on top is a :cens0r: and the one of the bottom is a :cens0r: HAHAHAHA

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you got it exactly right, lesser on top and lesser on bottom. Picture is of them breeding last year. I don't even own a butter lol.

Can this debate end now? Besides a few of you who misunderstood the intent of this. This pretty much proves, the believers of them being different morphs can't tell for themselves, so why do you still want to debate it? The whole yellowish/silver thing may of been true for the original founding animals, but that becomes farther and farther form the truth as we continue to out cross.

The variation of them comes not from the lesser/butter gene, but the other multi-thousand of possible genes that we can't clearly label but are still there changing how the snake looks. Same goes for every other morph and even normals. This is like debating if bhb pastels are different morphs than lemon pastels.

anything left to clear up?

Great idea for a thread.... I wish we could change it so everyone used one word instead of two separate ones.

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

Great idea for a thread.... I wish we could change it so everyone used one word instead of two separate ones.

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I doubt that will ever happen, same goes for ghost and hypo.

Not to add fuel to the fire but this is a lesser on the left and a butter on the right. No diffference?

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...30965225_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by wlpython

Not to add fuel to the fire but this is a lesser on the left and a butter on the right. No diffference?

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...30965225_n.jpg

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I can post pics of two pastels next to each other that look nothing alike but are both still pastels.



sent from my EVO

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

I can post pics of two pastels next to each other that look nothing alike but are both still pastels.



sent from my EVO

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Yup, I have a VERY dull pastel, here.. http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-22_170507.jpg Taken during shed and he's lighter now.

compared to this.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-25_231341.jpg

personaly I believe they're the same gene, but with any snake they're going to be different. we have so many morphs out there now it's hard to even keep track

Lesser...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...LesserMale.jpg
Butter...
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...tterfemale.jpg

With yours Jerry, you can easily see the difference and I can see why people will say there two different genes entirely. Like I've said before I don't know a lot about the morphs But a lot of them appear to look the same. Thanks for sharing some awesome snakes though!

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Originally Posted by zeion97

Yup, I have a VERY dull pastel, here.. http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-22_170507.jpg Taken during shed and he's lighter now.

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Sorry but this snake is clearly not a pastel.

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Originally Posted by wlpython

Not to add fuel to the fire but this is a lesser on the left and a butter on the right. No diffference?

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...30965225_n.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The variation of them comes not from the lesser/butter gene, but the other multi-thousand of possible genes that we can't clearly label but are still there changing how the snake looks. Same goes for every other morph and even normals. This is like debating if bhb pastels are different morphs than lemon pastels.

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also your butter is more silvery compared to your lesser that's more yellow, the exact opposite of what people say they are. I do realize there is quite the size difference between them that is most likely causing the drastic contrast, but point continues to be proven

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Sorry but this snake is clearly not a pastel.

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im going to have to agree, tess and me never agree on anything lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

you got it exactly right, lesser on top and lesser on bottom. Picture is of them breeding last year. I don't even own a butter lol.

Can this debate end now? Besides a few of you who misunderstood the intent of this. This pretty much proves, the believers of them being different morphs can't tell for themselves, so why do you still want to debate it? The whole yellowish/silver thing may of been true for the original founding animals, but that becomes farther and farther form the truth as we continue to out cross.

The variation of them comes not from the lesser/butter gene, but the other multi-thousand of possible genes that we can't clearly label but are still there changing how the snake looks. Same goes for every other morph and even normals. This is like debating if bhb pastels are different morphs than lemon pastels.

anything left to clear up?

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I've never really viewed them as discrete morphs, but the only aspect that I still need clarification on (due to my relative inexperience) is whether anyone has successfully produced a 'butter daddy' that resembles the original platty daddy. I know the 'het platty' gene is difficult, but theoretically couldn't someone produce a platinum (not a lesser) by pairing a butter and a het platty? if not, then they are still distinct morphs. if this question has been asked and answered already, I have missed it, but that's the only possible distinction I would consider relevant.

otherwise, it's just a matter of selecting the best quality lesser. as rabernet has shown a few times recently.

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Originally Posted by wwmjkd

I've never really viewed them as discrete morphs, but the only aspect that I still need clarification on (due to my relative inexperience) is whether anyone has successfully produced a 'butter daddy' that resembles the original platty daddy. I know the 'het platty' gene is difficult, but theoretically couldn't someone produce a platinum (not a lesser) by pairing a butter and a het platty? if not, then they are still distinct morphs. if this question has been asked and answered already, I have missed it, but that's the only possible distinction I would consider relevant.

otherwise, it's just a matter of selecting the best quality lesser. as rabernet has shown a few times recently.

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I haven't personally confirmed it, but it has been said for a couple years now that ralph davis made some butter daddys.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Sorry but this snake is clearly not a pastel.

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He's a pastel. Like I said., taken during shed. And he's heavily browned out. He's still a pastel though, I want to get a better picture but he's on Batryil (sp error?) And finally recovering so I am not touching unless I have to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I haven't personally confirmed it, but it has been said for a couple years now that ralph davis made some butter daddys.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfQQdmSQWqc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

He's a pastel. Like I said., taken during shed. And he's heavily browned out. He's still a pastel though, I want to get a better picture but he's on Batryil (sp error?) And finally recovering so I am not touching unless I have to.

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Sorry but like I said that is not a Pastel. A young Pastel less than 400g (it looks like that's a mouse its eating so I am guessing it's even smaller than that) is not going to be "browned" out. Also the term browned out does not mean that they actually turn brown. Even an adult browned out Pastel in deep shed has more yellow than that little normal. Not tying to rain on your parade but even in deep shed, that is still not a Pastel.

I'd have to agree. Someone lied to you :(

the biggest tell on a pastel is the green eyes... I do have a pastel that when in shed, looks just like one of my normals. She is browning out quite a lot. When she was 1000 grams, she was yellow as could be. Now at 2000 grams, she's pretty browned out.... Not that I'm saying that is a pastel or not a pastel. Just sayin' that the best tell is the green eye...

Butter = Lesser, and Lesser = Butter.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

He's a pastel. Like I said., taken during shed. And he's heavily browned out. He's still a pastel though, I want to get a better picture but he's on Batryil (sp error?) And finally recovering so I am not touching unless I have to.

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Sorry - even in shed, that's not a pastel by any stretch of the imagination, IMHO.

I have two lessers - who are as distinctly different as wlpythons. Again, IMHO, lessers and butters are the same thing.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

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Originally Posted by ClarkT

the biggest tell on a pastel is the green eyes... I do have a pastel that when in shed, looks just like one of my normals. She is browning out quite a lot. When she was 1000 grams, she was yellow as could be. Now at 2000 grams, she's pretty browned out.... Not that I'm saying that is a pastel or not a pastel. Just sayin' that the best tell is the green eye...

Butter = Lesser, and Lesser = Butter.....

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I'm going to leave it after this quote. It HAS GREEN EYES. As of now at almost 9 months he's yellowing. The breeder showed me pics of his dad, who did almost what you described, changed colors back and for with.

For some reason whenever they see Leagalos it must become a argument. At Tinley when I got him someone tried to backtalk the breeder and say it was a normal.. then another person jumps in. Within a few minutes i'm in the middle of a argument involving my snake that I'm not even arguing. -_-; Yes he's a Pastel. IF it really means that much I'll take a mediocre picture tonight when he gets his med, but really we need to see not all snakes are 1. Top notch coloration wise. 2. Get done a good thing buy a bad picture

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

I'm going to leave it after this quote. It HAS GREEN EYES. As of now at almost 9 months he's yellowing. The breeder showed me pics of his dad, who did almost what you described, changed colors back and for with.

For some reason whenever they see Leagalos it must become a argument. At Tinley when I got him someone tried to backtalk the breeder and say it was a normal.. then another person jumps in. Within a few minutes i'm in the middle of a argument involving my snake that I'm not even arguing. -_-; Yes he's a Pastel. IF it really means that much I'll take a mediocre picture tonight when he gets his med, but really we need to see not all snakes are 1. Top notch coloration wise. 2. Get done a good thing buy a bad picture

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I apologize, after I re-read that I thought of how rudely it was worded. The truth is this topic just gets at me somewhat. I know its a BAD picture, and he's a very bad quality pastel, but i bought him to be a pet, not to breed or show off. This would be time number 4 it has been debated just because of his color, (counting when i bought him) and it just gets old. I will get a better picture tonight though. Again, if i came off harshly i apologize.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClarkT

the biggest tell on a pastel is the green eyes... I do have a pastel that when in shed, looks just like one of my normals. She is browning out quite a lot. When she was 1000 grams, she was yellow as could be. Now at 2000 grams, she's pretty browned out.... Not that I'm saying that is a pastel or not a pastel. Just sayin' that the best tell is the green eye...

Butter = Lesser, and Lesser = Butter.....

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Except - I have normals with green eyes. Green eyes does not confirm that an animal is a pastel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

I'm going to leave it after this quote. It HAS GREEN EYES. As of now at almost 9 months he's yellowing. The breeder showed me pics of his dad, who did almost what you described, changed colors back and for with.

For some reason whenever they see Leagalos it must become a argument. At Tinley when I got him someone tried to backtalk the breeder and say it was a normal.. then another person jumps in. Within a few minutes i'm in the middle of a argument involving my snake that I'm not even arguing. -_-; Yes he's a Pastel. IF it really means that much I'll take a mediocre picture tonight when he gets his med, but really we need to see not all snakes are 1. Top notch coloration wise. 2. Get done a good thing buy a bad picture

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Can you get some belly shots as well?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

I'm going to leave it after this quote. It HAS GREEN EYES. As of now at almost 9 months he's yellowing. The breeder showed me pics of his dad, who did almost what you described, changed colors back and for with.

For some reason whenever they see Leagalos it must become a argument. At Tinley when I got him someone tried to backtalk the breeder and say it was a normal.. then another person jumps in. Within a few minutes i'm in the middle of a argument involving my snake that I'm not even arguing. -_-; Yes he's a Pastel. IF it really means that much I'll take a mediocre picture tonight when he gets his med, but really we need to see not all snakes are 1. Top notch coloration wise. 2. Get done a good thing buy a bad picture

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Can you get some belly shots as well?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you get some belly shots as well?

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I'll try, he's a real "baller" lol. again, a apologize. And I feel stupid just having read that a bit ago, I've always judged pastels off there colors and eyes. I feel rather stupid now. ;o I guess in a way it shows you can't trust everything you hear, even when you hear it from multiple people. Oh well. *sighs* Still a win in my book because of his personality either way it turns out. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Can you get some belly shots as well?

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This was the best I could do. And honestly... I had a LONG look at him.. I'm split. But I'd lean more towards a good colored normal. He came from a Pastel and a Super Pastel crossing though.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-02_203858.jpg

He's a little lighter then what the light gives credit to. He's not a yellowish color but very light compared to most normal's.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-02_203957.jpg

Again, the best I can do, hopefully once he recovers he'll be more happy prone.

I apologize once again to everyone. As I said, the whole "it is/it isn't" argument just annoys me with this guy.

yeah..very nice normal..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

This was the best I could do. And honestly... I had a LONG look at him.. I'm split. But I'd lean more towards a good colored normal. He came from a Pastel and a Super Pastel crossing though.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-02_203858.jpg

He's a little lighter then what the light gives credit to. He's not a yellowish color but very light compared to most normal's.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...-02_203957.jpg

Again, the best I can do, hopefully once he recovers he'll be more happy prone.

I apologize once again to everyone. As I said, the whole "it is/it isn't" argument just annoys me with this guy.

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No worries - and I hope he's on his way to recovery. I can tell you with those pictures, he's a normal.

There's NOTHING wrong with a normal - some of my favorite animals in my collection are normals.

I do feel badly if you paid pastel pricing for him though. And the person wasn't telling the truth if they said that one of his parents was a super pastel. Unless you mis-understood and they said he came from a super pastel clutch, in which case, a pastel to a pastel will produce pastels, normals and super pastels.

who sold him to you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

No worries - and I hope he's on his way to recovery. I can tell you with those pictures, he's a normal.

There's NOTHING wrong with a normal - some of my favorite animals in my collection are normals.

I do feel badly if you paid pastel pricing for him though. And the person wasn't telling the truth if they said that one of his parents was a super pastel. Unless you mis-understood and they said he came from a super pastel clutch, in which case, a pastel to a pastel will produce pastels, normals and super pastels.

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ooops... long day at work yesterday... lol Sorry, he came from a Pastel and a Pastel. his SISTER was a super Pastel though. Sorry about that Robin. But, I only paid $25 for him. Pretty good price for a good normal. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

who sold him to you?

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Honestly... Idk.. It was at Tinley, when you enter, on the back right hand corner right across from the shirt stand. The only other info I can give you is it was buy the display with the Cobra and the Rattlesnake.

I made that HUGE failure... I took down no names.. I planned on only buying a Burmese Python and walked out with 3 snakes and a cage...

pastel http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...71920958_n.jpg
pastel http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...91529471_n.jpg
pastel http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...01835876_n.jpg
pastelhttp://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...39999928_n.jpg
pastelhttp://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...68475380_n.jpg

Those are all my pastels none are related

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Originally Posted by zeion97

But, I only paid $25 for him. .

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that right there, means it is a normal lol

I paid $20 for a male yellowbelly.

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Originally Posted by Clint Bundy

I paid $20 for a male yellowbelly.

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Price can never mean a thing. I paid $100 for a male pastel 1,200 grams proven breeder. Locked with my female RIGHT after being in the cage. :O

Shows and being friends hold prices but that's just how life is!

Was your Yellow belly a deal from a friend?