Het genetic help, please

I have 2 100% Het Clown females.
[but no Het Clown male]

Using the genetics wizard and the males I do have *and* also tossing in my normal breeder female into the mix, I get the "weird" results, that follow.

BUMBLEBEE X NORMAL

Percent Fraction Morph
25% 1/4 Normal
25% 1/4 Pastel
25% 1/4 Spider
25% 1/4 Bumble Bee


BUMBLEBEE X 100% HET CLOWN

Percent Fraction Morph
12.5% 1/8 Normal
12.5% 1/8 Het. Clown
12.5% 1/8 Pastel
12.5% 1/8 Pastel Het. Clown
12.5% 1/8 Spider
12.5% 1/8 Spider Het. Clown
12.5% 1/8 Bumble Bee
12.5% 1/8 Bumble Bee Het. Clown


PASTEL X 100% HET CLOWN

Percent Fraction Morph
25% 1/4 Normal
25% 1/4 Het. Clown
25% 1/4 Pastel
25% 1/4 Pastel Het. Clown


PASTEL X NORMAL

Percent Fraction Morph
50% 1/2 Normal
50% 1/2 Pastel


FIRE X NORMAL

Percent Fraction Morph
50% 1/2 Normal
50% 1/2 Fire


FIRE X 100% HET CLOWN

Percent Fraction Morph
25% 1/4 Normal
25% 1/4 Het. Clown
25% 1/4 Fire
25% 1/4 Fire Het. Clown

SPIDER X 100% HET CLOWN

Percent Fraction Morph
25% 1/4 Normal
25% 1/4 Het. Clown
25% 1/4 Spider
25% 1/4 Spider Het. Clown


SPIDER X NORMAL

Percent Fraction Morph
50% 1/2 Normal
50% 1/2 Spider



The het gene throws me.
Isn't a het BP really just a "normal" with a recessive gene that only shows when paired with another recessive of the same type?

If so, why am I seeing "better odds" with my males and the normal female?

Sorry to be so dense but I can't understand why the het recessive gene is "overriding" the "visual normality" of the Hets.

Here are the two girls:

Agnes [lighter/reduced pattern]

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/lilgirl1.jpg
http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/lilgirl2.jpg

And Leah, the darker one who is a proven producer of Clowns

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/biggirl2.jpg


Please help me to understand the het issue and what I should do to maximize their potential.

Youre not seeing better odds, its just the crosses with the hets have been broken down more.

Spider x normal gives you half spiders and half normals (50/50).

Visually, spider x het clown will also give you half spider and half normal (again, 50/50).

However the genetics calculator is adding in the het. So you get:

25% Normal
25% het Clown
25% Spider
25% Spider het clown

Because 25% + 25% = 50% you are still looking at 50% visual SPIDER (oops).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Youre not seeing better odds, its just the crosses with the hets have been broken down more.

Spider x normal gives you half spiders and half normals (50/50).

Visually, spider x het clown will also give you half spider and half normal (again, 50/50).

However the genetics calculator is adding in the het. So you get:

25% Normal
25% het Clown
25% Spider
25% Spider het clown

Because 25% + 25% = 50% you are still looking at 50% visual clown.

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Really??

Wow.

The genetics wizard actually made it seem more complicated than it is, then?

Thanks so much for explaining it to me!

:)

Oops, was typing fast. The last part is visual spider, not clown.

...and yes, genetics calculators really break it down for you so it looks like you have a lot more options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Oops, was typing fast. The last part is visual spider, not clown.

...and yes, genetics calculators really break it down for you so it looks like you have a lot more options.

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I sort of figured that because I couldn't imagine how a Clown could've popped up....:D

Still, it's less confusing than all that 1/8 whatever stuff.

It's good to know that I can figure them as "normals" until I do find a nice Het Clown male.

:)

Issue with the clown part in those pairings is the offspring will be possible hets for clown. I am not well versed on clowns, so I am not sure if there is a marker for het clown like on some het pieds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Issue with the clown part in those pairings is the offspring will be possible hets for clown. I am not well versed on clowns, so I am not sure if there is a marker for het clown like on some het pieds.

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Not that I've [personally] seen or heard of.

My girls just look like snazzy normals with a lot of blushing, flames, faded heads and somewhat unusually high white sides....LOL

I got them from a breeder of Clowns and they were out of 100% het Clown clutches that produced visual Clowns and at least one of them [Leah] has produced Clowns already.

They were sold because the breeder is using the visual Clowns he produced instead, now.

So that brings up the issue of co-dominate pairings that produce normals and visual codoms.

Will the non-visual babies also be het Clowns and if so, what percentage?

I would assume "66% possible" from what I've read so far.

Would it be correct to offer them as "possible het Clowns"?

I've seen oodles of "possible het Clowns", "66% possible Het Clowns", "Possible Pastel Het Clown", etc being offered for sale.

[this is all so confusing!]....LOL

Also, would the light one [Agnes] be considered "banded" or something similar?

Her pattern is very nice and "odd", IMO but as I mentioned, I'm pretty clueless about subtle things....:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

The het gene throws me.
Isn't a het BP really just a "normal" with a recessive gene that only shows when paired with another recessive of the same type?

If so, why am I seeing "better odds" with my males and the normal female?

Sorry to be so dense but I can't understand why the het recessive gene is "overriding" the "visual normality" of the Hets.

---

The calculators do not do a good job of distinguishing genotype (identity of the genes) from phenotype (appearance).

Definitions:
Homozygous = the two genes in a gene pair are the same. Two copies of the normal gene or two copies of a mutant gene.
Heterozygous (het for short) = the two genes in a gene pair are NOT the same. A normal gene and a mutant gene or two different mutant genes.

Genotype clown and normal = het clown --> normal phenotype (clown gene is recessive to normal gene)
Genotype fire and normal = het fire --> fire phenotype (fire gene is codominant to normal gene)
Genotype spider and normal = het spider --> spider phenotype (spider gene is either dominant or codominant to normal gene; jury still out)
Genotype pastel and normal = het pastel --> pastel phenotype (pastel gene is codominant to normal gene)
Genotype pastel and normal, spider and normal = het pastel, het spider --> bumblebee phenotype

Herpers generally reserve "het (mutant gene)" for a normal-looking snake with a gene pair made up of a recessive mutant gene and a normal gene. This is a holdover from the days when the only known mutant genes were recessive to their normal gene counterparts. Those days are long over, and herpers need to adjust.

As a het clown royal python looks normal, the clown gene is recessive to its normal counterpart.

A spider royal python has a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene, giving the spider (phenotype) royal python a het spider genotype. As a het spider royal python does not look normal, the spider mutant gene is not recessive to its normal gene counterpart. Clear as mud?

The calculator is assuming that the user knows all this. And knows that a spider het clown royal python looks like a spider royal python. Because the het clown part of the genotype does not change the phenotype.

Sorry if people think I'm belaboring the point, but you did ask to understand hets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

So that brings up the issue of co-dominate pairings that produce normals and visual codoms.

Will the non-visual babies also be het Clowns and if so, what percentage?

I would assume "66% possible" from what I've read so far.

Would it be correct to offer them as "possible het Clowns"?

I've seen oodles of "possible het Clowns", "66% possible Het Clowns", "Possible Pastel Het Clown", etc being offered for sale.

[this is all so confusing!]....LOL

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Genotype clown mutant gene and normal gene = het clown --> normal phenotype.
Genotype normal gene and normal gene = homozygous normal --> normal phenotype.

het clown x het clown -->
1/4 homozygous normal
2/4 normal looking het clown
1/4 clown

The homozygous normal and normal looking het clowns are lumped together as 66% probability het clown.

het clown x homozygous normal -->
1/2 homozygous normal
1/2 normal looking het clown

The homozygous normal and normal looking het clowns are lumped together as 50% probability het clown.

I would class both 66% and 50% probability het clowns as possible het clowns. To be sure what the breeder means, ask him what the parents are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulh

The calculators do not do a good job of distinguishing genotype (identity of the genes) from phenotype (appearance).

Definitions:
Homozygous = the two genes in a gene pair are the same. Two copies of the normal gene or two copies of a mutant gene.
Heterozygous (het for short) = the two genes in a gene pair are NOT the same. A normal gene and a mutant gene or two different mutant genes.

Genotype clown and normal = het clown --> normal phenotype (clown gene is recessive to normal gene)
Genotype fire and normal = het fire --> fire phenotype (fire gene is codominant to normal gene)
Genotype spider and normal = het spider --> spider phenotype (spider gene is either dominant or codominant to normal gene; jury still out)
Genotype pastel and normal = het pastel --> pastel phenotype (pastel gene is codominant to normal gene)
Genotype pastel and normal, spider and normal = het pastel, het spider --> bumblebee phenotype

Herpers generally reserve "het (mutant gene)" for a normal-looking snake with a gene pair made up of a recessive mutant gene and a normal gene. This is a holdover from the days when the only known mutant genes were recessive to their normal gene counterparts. Those days are long over, and herpers need to adjust.

As a het clown royal python looks normal, the clown gene is recessive to its normal counterpart.

A spider royal python has a spider mutant gene paired with a normal gene, giving the spider (phenotype) royal python a het spider genotype. As a het spider royal python does not look normal, the spider mutant gene is not recessive to its normal gene counterpart. Clear as mud?

The calculator is assuming that the user knows all this. And knows that a spider het clown royal python looks like a spider royal python. Because the het clown part of the genotype does not change the phenotype.

Sorry if people think I'm belaboring the point, but you did ask to understand hets.

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Yes and I did and thank you so much for explaining all of that.

My apologies to all of those for whom this is "common knowledge" and may find my questions tedious.

I am trying to learn and this is by far and away the best place to do it.

Thanks to all for your patience!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulh

Genotype clown mutant gene and normal gene = het clown --> normal phenotype.
Genotype normal gene and normal gene = homozygous normal --> normal phenotype.

het clown x het clown -->
1/4 homozygous normal
2/4 normal looking het clown
1/4 clown

The homozygous normal and normal looking het clowns are lumped together as 66% probability het clown.

het clown x homozygous normal -->
1/2 homozygous normal
1/2 normal looking het clown

The homozygous normal and normal looking het clowns are lumped together as 50% probability het clown.

I would class both 66% and 50% probability het clowns as possible het clowns. To be sure what the breeder means, ask him what the parents are.

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Thank you, I will pester him some more about that.

I'm supposed to get their papers from him but haven't gotten to his shop to do so.
[he's really busy of late and hasn't had time to waste on preparing them yet, anyway]

As I understand it, their parents were also 100% hets and they were out of clutches who produced visual Clowns.

Leah also produced visual Clowns last year when bred to a Clown het.

[he kept some of the Clowns as breeders and sold these Hets to me, having no more use for them]

I have no idea what their "grandparents" were, however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

As I understand it, their parents were also 100% hets and they were out of clutches who produced visual Clowns.

Leah also produced visual Clowns last year when bred to a Clown het.

[he kept some of the Clowns as breeders and sold these Hets to me, having no more use for them]

I have no idea what their "grandparents" were, however.

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I'm probably reading something wrong but if your snakes are from het x het pairings they're possible hets until proven right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John1982

I'm probably reading something wrong but if your snakes are from het x het pairings they're possible hets until proven right?

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That would be correct except for the female Leah, who produced clowns last season.
het X het makes 66% pos hets

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

That would be correct except for the female Leah, who produced clowns last season.
het X het makes 66% pos hets

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Since Agnes is also guaranteed 100% Het, she may have produced Clowns as well but not as recently as last year.

He wouldn't lie about it so I'll have to ask him to verify that.


:)