Lesser vs. Butter?

Hey guys! So I am planning for the show in Phoenix next month and trying to get a good idea of what I want for my first double morph male. I was thinking either a butter pastel or a butter fire, however, I when reading through the morph descriptions I came across the lesser.

It seems like the Lesser and Butter morph are very similar and in fact even produce the same super (BELs). So why is it that a Butter Pastel is more expensive than a Lesser Pastel? Is there any real benefit to going one way rather than the other if you can produce essentially the same morphs?

Butters and lessers are very hard to tell apart, even some mojaves look like lessers. I don't know the exact reason for butters being more expensive, but I have heard that super lessers are known to have birth defects. I don't know how true this is though. I also don't know if butters have the same problem, but I haven't heard of it with butters so that might play into it.

With the internet you never truly know what's fact and what's rumor. Hopefully someone can clear this up.

I cant tell them apart

Well if they did have defects, I can see that as being a reason to pick a butter over a lesser. Anyone heard that? Need more inputs! lol

honestly butters and lessers so so similar that they are the same morphs with different effects in combos.

make sence?

for instance a butter spider, and a lesser spider.

there is the most obvious distinction ive witnessed and seen in most all pictures i researched before buying my butter.

from what i heard butterxbutter/lesserxlesser make the whitest BEL
but in both cases they are sometimes born with bugg eyes.
not deformed but a decission breaker for some people.

and if you cant tell the difference between some lessers and mojaves, look in the blacks and bellies.
my mojos belly is kinda smokey, my butters belly is super white. just saying, plus some lessers look like they have some ghost gene influence. butters/lessers just have amazing variences within the morph itself,
such as mojaves.

I personally prefer butter, if you see enough of them, you can start to tell a difference especially among older animals, now im not going to play which one is the butter or so on, I chose to work with butter and mojave because those 2 are my favorite bel genes..... I would pay more for a butter than a lesser but that is just me personally. A butter fire (nuclear) is an awesome animal to pick up, especially if you have an enchi female hiding somewhere.... and honestly the more expensive price of the butter is a plus to me, you may spend more on an animal than on a lesser, but your offspring will be more valuable as well.... In the end work with what YOU like the best, and take lots of pics at the show, I will not be able to make it this year :(

I also have a hard time telling them apart. I decided to go the butter route because both the female and male fit the characteristics of what I wanted perfectly. If I would have found a better looking lesser I'd have gone that route.

Here is my male pastel butter PH OH.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_5629.jpg

Here he is with my female butter PH OG.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_5641.jpg

I honestly wouldn't get too caught up in what the difference is between the two. I would focus on finding the best example of what you want to reproduce in the future. If it ends up a butter or lesser so be it.

Good luck at the show. If I have a day off the weekend of the show I will be there. I went last year and loved it. Last year I remember seeing plenty of male BPs, I was only in the market for females so I didn't walk out with any balls.

I don't know. I have both :D

Hopefully there will be a lot of males to choose from and I can just pick which I like the best instead of worrying over whether I'd want a butter pastel/butter fire or a lesser pastel/lesser fire. Never know what I might find that I end up bringing home lol. I'll have about 800 to work with for a double gene male, so I will be working with what I can lol. Wish me luck! If anyone does end up getting to the show in November, I'd be happy to say hello!

i say they are the same exact thing

They can't be the exact same thing. There is almost a 400 price difference between a lesser and a butter. If they were exactly the same then you could theoretically buy a lesser and call it a butter and nobody would be the wiser. Why would there be two names for one morph with two different prices? That is just... crazy. :\

So this is what World of Pythons say about butters:

Description

Butters are quite similar in appearance to Lesser Platinum ball pythons, yet descend from a different, wild-collected bloodline. These are beautiful snakes, with soft yellow markings on a velvety caramel-brown background. The "Super Butter" homozygous form is also a Blue-Eyed Leucistic.

NERD

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/butter/


I have one of each, but I can't fairly compare them - my lesser is a 4 year old and I got him recently, and my butter is a baby.

My lesser:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/img_5717.jpg

My butter:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...r/IMG_5851.jpg

Thanks Julie. I actually think I can see a difference between your butter and your lesser, but that might just be age that's influencing the color difference. The definition helped though. I think I will just keep an open mind and look at the quality of snakes offered rather than just going in search of a particular morph. They both have the same super and both are capable of making beautiful babies. I will just look for the best representation of the morph and go with that. Thanks guys for all the input. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

They can't be the exact same thing. There is almost a 400 price difference between a lesser and a butter. If they were exactly the same then you could theoretically buy a lesser and call it a butter and nobody would be the wiser. Why would there be two names for one morph with two different prices? That is just... crazy. :\

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I'll be honest, your post made my lol.

Either you're being sarcastic, or you don't understand marketing and basic human psychology, and you don't realize that the "hypothetical" situation you have just mentioned has been happening for years.

Well I am sure it has happened in the past. If butters and lessers are so similar I am sure someone has bought a lesser and called it a butter so they could reap the benefits financially, however, it's very dishonest if they are different morphs and I don't like that. While people might have done it in the past, I would NEVER do that. I want a good name in the community and buying one thing and calling it another would definitely not help me in any way.

On butters vs lessers:

MY personal opinion is that it definitely seems that the allele that causes a snake to be a lesser and the allele that causes a snake to be a butter are identical.

You need to understand, however, that a snake's appearance is determined by more than just a single allele. The complex polygenetic causes of coloration, pattern, shape, and size of a snake are probably much more numerous than you imagine.

In many cases, I'd probably agree with the sentiment that "butters look better than lessers". However, the reasoning behind such a hypothetical situation can be simply explained even if the allele causing the two conditions is identical:

Go back to 2008. Both traits were around. People had already figured out that the homozygotes of both traits were beautifully clean BELs. Lesser platinums had been around for longer than the butter line had, and were being mass produced by everyone wanting to make a pure white snake. Butters, being "newer", were more expensive simply because of a lack of supply. They were in the hands of people with more money, and therefore the prettiest versions of base morphs.

Those prettiest versions passed on some of their "good looks" genetics that went beyond simply being a particular morph, and in the end made really nice looking butters.

Lessers were starting to be mass produced by people who wanted the cheapest route to a pure white snake. In many cases, this was to find a cheap male and pair it with whatever female was available, with no regard to what kind of looks the female had. This has resulted in a downward spiral of average looks of a particular year class of any particular morph.

Now almost four years later, butters have seen the same thing. Take a look at most lessers and most butters produced this year. They are compatible with all of the BEL complex alleles. They produce some extremely white homozygote BELs. They look extraordinarily identical. Why would you think they are something different just because the lineage as traced back to africa is different?

A better question is why would you pay more for identical looking animals?

Frankly I haven't seen a price difference in butters and lessers in over a year. Any price difference can easily be explained more because of a particular animal's quality, and not the name associated with its morph lineage. I've certainly seen some lessers that seemed to outshine 90% of the butters available at the given time, and were priced accordingly.

The funny thing is this - I picked up my butter from an expo. He was in a display case with a lesser, but the butter absolutely caught my eye because of his wild neck pattern. The butter was actually cheaper than the lesser, much to my great, great, great delight!!!

Frankly, if my butter had been the more expensive snake, I still would have bought him because he was amazing.

Those who know my collection and know the answer - don't answer.

Tell me - which of these two are butter and which are lesser? Or are they both butter? Or are they both lesser? And don't cheat by looking at the name of the file either! :P Give your honest reaction looking at them.

I maintain that they are the same thing.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...sserFemale.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/Paxton4.jpg

Together
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Those who know my collection and know the answer - don't answer.

Tell me - which of these two are butter and which are lesser? Or are they both butter? Or are they both lesser? And don't cheat by looking at the name of the file either! :P Give your honest reaction looking at them.

I maintain that they are the same thing.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...sserFemale.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...on/Paxton4.jpg

Together
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg

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I don't care what they are, I want them both. :P

I already said I can't tell them apart, but I would guess the first one is a butter and the second one is a lesser.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kinra

I don't care what they are, I want them both. :P

I already said I can't tell them apart, but I would guess the first one is a butter and the second one is a lesser.

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X2 on both fronts!!! Those are some awesome looking snakes. And I can't tell them apart either, lol!!!

I think we can all agree that the 2nd animal is out of this world.. not too many like it. I'd sure like to snatch up a similar one someday.

her is my 900g female butter... either way ther are worth every penny.. i mean just look at her haha

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...6/img_0775.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...6/img_0980.jpg

I think I would guess the first is a butter and the second a lesser, but that's just a guess lol. The reason this all started was I saw a lesser pastel for 450 listed on ks, I've been shopping butter pastels for the last month or so and haven't seen one less than 700. Maybe I am just looking at the high end butters or perhaps that was a really low priced pastel?

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

I think I would guess the first is a butter and the second a lesser, but that's just a guess lol. The reason this all started was I saw a lesser pastel for 450 listed on ks, I've been shopping butter pastels for the last month or so and haven't seen one less than 700. Maybe I am just looking at the high end butters or perhaps that was a really low priced pastel?

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Are you sure it was a lesser pastel? $450 seems really low for a lesser pastel. Those are usually closer to what you are finding the butter pastels for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

I think I would guess the first is a butter and the second a lesser, but that's just a guess lol. The reason this all started was I saw a lesser pastel for 450 listed on ks, I've been shopping butter pastels for the last month or so and haven't seen one less than 700. Maybe I am just looking at the high end butters or perhaps that was a really low priced pastel?

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those are the exact same snake haha just different lighting... so that also shows that light plays with the colors so its almost a toss up with some snakes.now the second pic is after she packed on another 150gs though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zach_24_90

those are the exact same snake haha just different lighting... so that also shows that light plays with the colors so its almost a toss up with some snakes.now the second pic is after she packed on another 150gs though.

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I think she was responding to Robin's post on page 2.

I am positive it was a lesser pastel. I've been looking at only co-dom males lately since that's what I will be shopping for come Nov at the Phoenix show. I remembered reading that lessers and butters were thought at one point to be the same morph, so that's what spawned this thread. Trying to figure out why one would be so cheap and the other so expensive. Was that just a fluke?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kinra

I think she was responding to Robin's post on page 2.

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haha oh well either way i love a thread full of butter/lesser pics

Both animals in my example are lessers. :D

That second lesser is absolutely stunning, Robin. The blushing is phenomenal. I stand reaffirmed that I will just look for the best represented morph, not necessarily a butter or a lesser by name lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

That second lesser is absolutely stunning, Robin. The blushing is phenomenal. I stand reaffirmed that I will just look for the best represented morph, not necessarily a butter or a lesser by name lol.

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That's exactly what I did. It did take me almost 2 years to find him - he was my first lesser that I added to my collection (and fingers crossed will be breeding this season). I knew that I wanted a completely reduced pattern, black back lesser. The day his breeder posted hatch pictures of his clutch, I contacted him to find out if it was a male and for sale! LOL

That said, I am currently keeping my eyes open for a butter female, if for no other reason than to see if I can see any differences in my own collection between the two. Although I still maintain they are essential the same thing - just as different lines of pastels are still pastels. :P

Lessers and butters are the same morph, through 3 years and many pairings of different animals with my lesser it was easy to come to this conclusion. I can tell you that most breeders know this and just go along with the whole different name thing. The butter name fetches a little more money and also in turn makes it look like a better investment.

Ah ha, see, I knew I saw it somewhere. It was not on kingsnake, it was on fauna. But here is the link to the lesser pastel advertised that spawned my whole question about the difference between lessers and butters.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=278419

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

Ah ha, see, I knew I saw it somewhere. It was not on kingsnake, it was on fauna. But here is the link to the lesser pastel advertised that spawned my whole question about the difference between lessers and butters.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=278419

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Given who the sellers are - it doesn't surprise me.

Make some coffee and read the history of Joe Capone if you're even slightly interested

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Capone

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ghlight=Capone

That is a lot to read... everything is from three years ago. Is there anything newer about these breeders? It seems like a lot of the complaints are about pricing and the individual hurting the market by pricing his animals lower than others. :\

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

They can't be the exact same thing. There is almost a 400 price difference between a lesser and a butter. If they were exactly the same then you could theoretically buy a lesser and call it a butter and nobody would be the wiser. Why would there be two names for one morph with two different prices? That is just... crazy. :\

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that price difference is a result of marketing plain and simple. IMO they are the same morph. and as far as selling lessers as butters goes you can pretty much bet that it's happened. I really don't know how people can say they affect combos differently when there is such a huge variation in how the base morph looks. you could breed a light butter/lesser to say a low white spider and a dark butter lesser to that same spider and get 2 completely different clutches. for that matter you could probably get 2 different clutches breeding the light lesser/butter to the spider 2 years in a row. for me I wouldn't spend a penny more because an animal is named butter. what I would pay more for is an exceptional representation of the morph.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

That is a lot to read... everything is from three years ago. Is there anything newer about these breeders? It seems like a lot of the complaints are about pricing and the individual hurting the market by pricing his animals lower than others. :\

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Yes, but his marketing hasn't changed much. He's literally a used car salesman, so it doesn't surprise me that his prices are that much cheaper than others. At the end of the day, it's up to each person to decide if they wish to support someone like that or not.

I'm not saying to buy or not to buy from them, simply giving some back ground.

I think I would rather wait till the show and see the snakes first hand. If there is nothing I see at the show that really takes my breath away, then I will look into maybe purchasing one off the internet, but at that point it really would be finding the absolute best looker to me. I know Constrictors Unlimited has a couple pretty butter pastel males. Never the less I would really like to see the snakes in person, I am a little intimidated by ordering a snake online lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

I think I would rather wait till the show and see the snakes first hand. If there is nothing I see at the show that really takes my breath away, then I will look into maybe purchasing one off the internet, but at that point it really would be finding the absolute best looker to me. I know Constrictors Unlimited has a couple pretty butter pastel males. Never the less I would really like to see the snakes in person, I am a little intimidated by ordering a snake online lol.

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I can understand that. I will say though, that most of my best looking animals came from finding them online and jumping on them as soon as I saw them. :)

I've only ever found a few animals at shows that met my high standards of what I was looking for in a particular morph.

Just always research the seller using the BOI on Faunaclassifieds.com to make sure you're purchasing from a reputable seller if you ever go the online route.

Good luck, and we can't wait to see what you get!

If I do not see what I want then I will definitely just start looking online. I want a reduced pattern since I plan to breed with spiders in the future, fewer alien heads the better! I also really like the look of your second snake, he seems very light, so I might look for something along those lines, either that or with a lot of blushing! I have something in mind for what I am looking for and if the snake doesn't meet that then I just won't pick it up. I want to have a good program ahead of me.

As for the BOI, sometimes that is tricky. Like the one ad I posted above from fauna. Just hitting the BOI only brings up ClarksGeckos and all of his reviews are good... its only when you search his partner that you get the bad reviews! I still haven't found a way to search on Fauna... but maybe I am just not seeing it? :/

I think this debate will be ever going. My input on it is that Butter is just another line of Lesser than somebody got and made it its own line. They do the same thing to every morph i would just say there are slight differences. Almost like the lemon pastels vs. the average pastel. I think the butters are just a darker line of lessers. They ever both do the "Platty/Butter Daddy". this is just my opinion, feel free to criticize:)