Seems like there are a lot of illegally kept animals here...

I see people on here from places like New York City and other places that have very strict laws on animals that apparently keep and breed such animals that are clearly defined as illegal. Example: One guy on here says he is from NYC and posts that he keeps and breeds burms, retics, cobras and taipans, amongst others. He isn't the only one, there are lots. Anyone else find this a little shady? Am I missing some bylaws or something where keeping clearly defined illegal animals is legal for these people?

I don't have any problem with keeping such animals as long as proper care can be given, but I do follow the laws. Seeing these people raise a red flag for me.

So, what gives?

I would assume they have a permit. I don't know NY laws, in fact I don't know any outside of Wisconsin, but I believe there are a lot of places where you can legally own these animals if you have a special permit.

I know in some cases, laws vary by location. For example, an animal illegal inside city limits is not illegal outside city limits. Perhaps that has something to do with it ?

I often wonder the same thing, how many people are deliberately or accidentally keeping illegal animals.

Gale

Yes you have to have permits to keep giant sized pythons in the city and also you have to be licensed to keep venomous snakes which I am.

in nys you could have received a permit for any animals you had prior to the ban. after the ban it is possible to get one but not easy and they dont hand them out readily. i cant speak for nyc as they have a separate group of laws just for them and i am not up on their laws. they still have to follow nys laws as well though.
in nys its illegal to own:
any venemous
any rear fanged
burms, retics, anacondas, african rock and 2 other large constrictors that i can t remember off hand.
also certain monitors as well i believe but dont quote: croc monitors black throat and white throat. but not 100% on the white throat.
adam jeffery
when i have more time ill do a search and site references for others

its illegal in new york city and the five borrows to own just about any reptile. Long Island where im from and all other parts of NY you can own reptiles just not the ones on the banned list from 2004 unless you were grandfathered in so to speak.

Only way to own the banned species in the the 5 boroughs is to have had them before the ban in 1999 i believe. After that they will not provide a permit to keep the animals if acquired after the ban was set forth.

There are far too many variables in this scenario to judge people you see posting online. That's my opinion, and the stance of BP.net, anyhow.

1. Sometimes people will put down the nearest large city so folks have a general idea of their location...rather than the specific smaller city/town/suburb that may have different laws entirely.

2. Some people are simply unaware that there may be local laws against owning what seems to be a perfectly harmless pet and may likely have even been sold to them by a pet store in the same city.

3. Some people may have been grandfathered into current local restrictions.

4. Some people may have all the proper permits in place.

...and I could go on.

Here at BP.net, we don't condone actively breaking the law or encouraging people to break laws by telling them how to do so. But we are NOT the police...we are not here to enforce laws. It is not our responsibility to be aware of every law governing every country, state, city, town, or HOA that our thousands of members might live in.

If we see someone on here telling people how they can sneak around the laws in NYC and buy ball pythons illegally, then we'll put a stop to that. But if we see someone who's profile happens to say NYC and they have a pet ball python....that is their business, and it's not our job to worry about it. ;)

I typically put Chicago as my location since most people recognize where Chicago is, and I do have some people who stalk me across sites... however, Chicago has much stricter regulations than its suburbs.

Ok, I was just curious. I'm not trying to police them or cause any trouble. Most bans are ridiculous in my opinion. Just something I wondered because I see it a lot and I wasn't really singling out NYC, I just used that as an example because most are aware of that particular ban. I know some people on another forum who live in Georgia and they keep and raise corns, which I know is illegal. I've also met people in Ohio who have a pet eastern milk, which is another no-no. It just seems a lot of these bans are either ineffective, not enforced or have loop holes to get around them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adamjeffery

in nys you could have received a permit for any animals you had prior to the ban. after the ban it is possible to get one but not easy and they dont hand them out readily. i cant speak for nyc as they have a separate group of laws just for them and i am not up on their laws. they still have to follow nys laws as well though.
in nys its illegal to own:
any venemous
any rear fanged
burms, retics, anacondas, african rock and 2 other large constrictors that i can t remember off hand.
also certain monitors as well i believe but dont quote: croc monitors black throat and white throat. but not 100% on the white throat.
adam jeffery
when i have more time ill do a search and site references for others

---

It's called permits and licenses. Besides i'm considering moving to the Knoxville, TN area. Does anyone know if there's a good market for reptile breeders in Knoxville?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

Ok, I was just curious. I'm not trying to police them or cause any trouble. Most bans are ridiculous in my opinion. Just something I wondered because I see it a lot and I wasn't really singling out NYC, I just used that as an example because most are aware of that particular ban. I know some people on another forum who live in Georgia and they keep and raise corns, which I know is illegal. I've also met people in Ohio who have a pet eastern milk, which is another no-no. It just seems a lot of these bans are either ineffective, not enforced or have loop holes to get around them.

---

You nailed it. Bans are ineffective. It much like drugs, just because you outlaw them, doesn't mean its going to stop people from obtaining them. Bans on animals aren't going to eliminate the animal trade in those states, its just going to make it move underground and involve people willing to take the risks. It's a very hard thing to regulate in reality and far too easy to maintain a collection of illegal animals without being caught.

Some people locations are false..... just FYI before anyone runs around calling DNR or anything.

not sure how up to date this site is but:

State laws on owning exotic animals



NY "wild animal" reptiles that are baned:
(5) All reptiles that are venomous by nature, pursuant to department regulation, and the following species and families: Burmese Python (Python m. bivittatus), Reticulated Python (Python reticulatus), African Rock Python (Python sabae), Green Anaconda (Eunectes maurinus), Yellow Anaconda (Eunectes notaeus), Australian Amethystine Python (Morelia amethistina kinhorni), Indian Python (Python molurus), Asiatic (water) Monitor (V. salvator), Nile Monitor (V. nilocitus), White Throat Monitor (V. albigularus), Black Throat Monitor (V. albigularus ionides) and Crocodile Monitor (V. salvadori) and any hybrid thereof,

(6) Crocodilia.

You can obtain a permit to own them, but you can not breed them.

also:
3. Any person who possesses or harbors a wild animal for use as a pet at the time that this section takes effect may retain possession of such animal for the remainder of its life, provided that such person:

a.Has not been convicted of any offense relating to cruelty to animals or under a judicial order prohibiting possession of animals;

b.Applies to the department within sixty days of the effective date of this section, and obtains from the department, a permit pursuant to subdivision four of this section; and

c.Complies with all rules and regulations established by the department as requisites for ownership of such wild animal.

and another:
• N.Y. AGRIC. & MKTS. §370 - Protection of the public from attack by wild animals and reptiles.

Any person owning, possessing or harboring a wild animal or reptile capable of inflicting bodily harm upon a human being, who shall fail to exercise due care in safeguarding the public from attack by such wild animal or reptile, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars, or by both. "Wild animal" within the meaning of this section, shall not include a dog or cat or other domestic animal.

Previous attacks upon a human being by such wild animal or reptile, or knowledge of the vicious propensities of such wild animal or reptile, on the part of the possessor or harborer thereof, shall not be required to be proven by the people upon a prosecution hereunder; and neither the fact that such wild animal or reptile has not previously attacked a human being, nor lack of knowledge of the vicious propensities of such wild animal or reptile on the part of the owner, possessor or harborer thereof shall constitute a defense to a prosecution hereunder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pythoncrazy

It's called permits and licenses. Besides i'm considering moving to the Knoxville, TN area. Does anyone know if there's a good market for reptile breeders in Knoxville?

---

never said you didnt have any. i was just stating the law as it's written. i can say though breeding any of them in nys is illegal. NO permit allows the breeding of any of the species listed in nys. and no new permits are issued unless its for exhibition or scientific purposes. so the permit only covers animals that were in your possession prior to the ban.
adam jeffery

p.s. i dont care really what people have or dont. i just dont wanna see your name on the news and then NEW laws come out because other people were breaking the current ones. if its illegal....then dont do it. not saying you are doing anything illegal just stating the law

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

not sure how up to date this site is but:

State laws on owning exotic animals



NY "wild animal" reptiles that are baned:
(5) All reptiles that are venomous by nature, pursuant to department regulation, and the following species and families: Burmese Python (Python m. bivittatus), Reticulated Python (Python reticulatus), African Rock Python (Python sabae), Green Anaconda (Eunectes maurinus), Yellow Anaconda (Eunectes notaeus), Australian Amethystine Python (Morelia amethistina kinhorni), Indian Python (Python molurus), Asiatic (water) Monitor (V. salvator), Nile Monitor (V. nilocitus), White Throat Monitor (V. albigularus), Black Throat Monitor (V. albigularus ionides) and Crocodile Monitor (V. salvadori) and any hybrid thereof,

(6) Crocodilia.

You can obtain a permit to own them, but you can not breed them.

also:
3. Any person who possesses or harbors a wild animal for use as a pet at the time that this section takes effect may retain possession of such animal for the remainder of its life, provided that such person:

a.Has not been convicted of any offense relating to cruelty to animals or under a judicial order prohibiting possession of animals;

b.Applies to the department within sixty days of the effective date of this section, and obtains from the department, a permit pursuant to subdivision four of this section; and

c.Complies with all rules and regulations established by the department as requisites for ownership of such wild animal.

and another:
• N.Y. AGRIC. & MKTS. §370 - Protection of the public from attack by wild animals and reptiles.

Any person owning, possessing or harboring a wild animal or reptile capable of inflicting bodily harm upon a human being, who shall fail to exercise due care in safeguarding the public from attack by such wild animal or reptile, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars, or by both. "Wild animal" within the meaning of this section, shall not include a dog or cat or other domestic animal.

Previous attacks upon a human being by such wild animal or reptile, or knowledge of the vicious propensities of such wild animal or reptile, on the part of the possessor or harborer thereof, shall not be required to be proven by the people upon a prosecution hereunder; and neither the fact that such wild animal or reptile has not previously attacked a human being, nor lack of knowledge of the vicious propensities of such wild animal or reptile on the part of the owner, possessor or harborer thereof shall constitute a defense to a prosecution hereunder.

---

thanks now i dont have to look for it...lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adamjeffery

if its illegal....then dont do it.

---

So, you've never done anything illegal?

Underage drinking, perhaps? Smoking a little weed? *The list can go on, and on*

Let people live their own lives, and worry about your own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

So, you've never done anything illegal?

Underage drinking, perhaps? Smoking a little weed? *The list can go on, and on*

Let people live their own lives, and worry about your own.

---

Bad examples as those only hurt YOU when caught.

But when breaking Banned Laws in cities, hurts Everyone as a whole when Lobbyist get a hold of it

This isnt snakes, but still illegal animals.
Ferrets are illegal in California, yet its the state with the most ferrets and ferret sales in the country. Go figure right?

(CA is also the only state in the continental US that bans them.....something is clearly wrong with their laws when pot is legal and something like pet ferrets aren't IMO....)

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Wait, I thought everything was illegal nowadays. Downloading music from the net is illegal too. Is everyone that downloads music shady? Just because the government says something is wrong, does that mean that it really is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

So, you've never done anything illegal?

Underage drinking, perhaps? Smoking a little weed? *The list can go on, and on*

Let people live their own lives, and worry about your own.

---

this statement alone shows your maturity level.
weed is a worthless drug. and no i dont smoke it. drinking is a legal activity that has an age restriction when i was underage i did drink yes. keeping illegal animals...nope, not on my things to do. condoning any illegal animal activity at a time when the government is trying to make laws against any ownership, just shows how little you actually care for our hobby. when you grow up you may see things in a diff light. if you dont grow up then ill see you on cops or in the newspaper.
adam jeffery

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adamjeffery

this statement alone shows your maturity level.
weed is a worthless drug. and no i dont smoke it. drinking is a legal activity that has an age restriction when i was underage i did drink yes. keeping illegal animals...nope, not on my things to do. condoning any illegal animal activity at a time when the government is trying to make laws against any ownership, just shows how little you actually care for our hobby. when you grow up you may see things in a diff light. if you dont grow up then ill see you on cops or in the newspaper.
adam jeffery

---

I'm not sure how insulting her is going to help you get your point across. She has a differing opinion than you, which she is allowed to have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Wait, I thought everything was illegal nowadays. Downloading music from the net is illegal too. Is everyone that downloads music shady? Just because the government says something is wrong, does that mean that it really is?

---

As someone who writes and sells software as a living, I can answer that first part with a "yes."

Song writers spend thousands of hours practicing their craft, experimenting and creating their music. They have every right to dictate how the results of their work is handled. If they want to charge you to listen to it, that's their right and because it's their property, you should indeed pay for it. If you don't, you are stealing. You don't want to pay for it, don't listen to it. The sense of entitlement when it comes to music is astounding.

I spend 40-60 hours a week, every week working on our software. We have to not only pay my partner and I, but our other developers, our support technicians, our quality control testers and our marketing team. If someone wants to use our software, if they want to benefit from the hundreds of thousands of man hours that have been put into it, then they most certainly have to pay what we ask. Is it right that some people decide they don't want to pay our price, but want to benefit from all our hard work anyway?

Sorry for the tangent, but for someone who is directly affected in a negative way by piracy, this is an issue that's close to my heart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

I see people on here from places like New York City and other places that have very strict laws on animals that apparently keep and breed such animals that are clearly defined as illegal. Example: One guy on here says he is from NYC and posts that he keeps and breeds burms, retics, cobras and taipans, amongst others. He isn't the only one, there are lots. Anyone else find this a little shady? Am I missing some bylaws or something where keeping clearly defined illegal animals is legal for these people?

I don't have any problem with keeping such animals as long as proper care can be given, but I do follow the laws. Seeing these people raise a red flag for me.

So, what gives?

---

Its entirely possible that the member in question is saying they are from NYC but does not live in the 5 borrows, but rather so close that its not worth making the minor distinction. Also its possible they live in NYC but raise the animals elsewhere. Its also possible the person has permits or has filed as a zoo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adamjeffery

weed is a worthless drug.

---

Monetarily worthless? Weed is actually very valuable. There is a thriving market for buying and selling it.

Effectively worthless? Weed will definitely produce an effect. Its even legal in some states for medicinal purposes of which it has more than a few.

I am not sure on what other basis you could call weed worthless. If you are merely referring to the fact that its illegal for recreational use then why not just say that, although it would be stating the obvious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

Monetarily worthless? Weed is actually very valuable. There is a thriving market for buying and selling it.

Effectively worthless? Weed will definitely produce an effect. Its even legal in some states for medicinal purposes of which it has more than a few.

I am not sure on what other basis you could call weed worthless. If you are merely referring to the fact that its illegal for recreational use then why not just say that, although it would be stating the obvious.

---

With over 25,000 uses from food, paint, and fuel to clothing, construction and medicine, Id also have to agree that the "weed is useless" statement was made in hast and HIGHly inaccurate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

Its entirely possible that the member in question is saying they are from NYC but does not live in the 5 borrows, but rather so close that its not worth making the minor distinction. Also its possible they live in NYC but raise the animals elsewhere. Its also possible the person has permits or has filed as a zoo.

---

Thank you! This is by far the best post on this thread!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

Ok, I was just curious. I'm not trying to police them or cause any trouble. Most bans are ridiculous in my opinion. Just something I wondered because I see it a lot and I wasn't really singling out NYC, I just used that as an example because most are aware of that particular ban. I know some people on another forum who live in Georgia and they keep and raise corns, which I know is illegal. I've also met people in Ohio who have a pet eastern milk, which is another no-no. It just seems a lot of these bans are either ineffective, not enforced or have loop holes to get around them.

---

MHM...most (if not all) Laws are written with the intention of providing loopholes to those who truly know how to navigate the system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anthonym

You nailed it. Bans are ineffective. It much like drugs, just because you outlaw them, doesn't mean its going to stop people from obtaining them. Bans on animals aren't going to eliminate the animal trade in those states, its just going to make it move underground and involve people willing to take the risks. It's a very hard thing to regulate in reality and far too easy to maintain a collection of illegal animals without being caught.

---

more like guns... The gun control laws only keep the firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens, as those who obtain them illegally will do so whether there are laws in place or not.(safest places in the world are those that require every house to own a firearm btw)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I'm not sure how insulting her is going to help you get your point across. She has a differing opinion than you, which she is allowed to have.

---

im not seeing an insult. an observation yes.
adam jeffery

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pythoncrazy

Thank you! This is by far the best post on this thread!

---

you must not of read Judy's post on page one

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

There are far too many variables in this scenario to judge people you see posting online. That's my opinion, and the stance of BP.net, anyhow.

1. Sometimes people will put down the nearest large city so folks have a general idea of their location...rather than the specific smaller city/town/suburb that may have different laws entirely.

2. Some people are simply unaware that there may be local laws against owning what seems to be a perfectly harmless pet and may likely have even been sold to them by a pet store in the same city.

3. Some people may have been grandfathered into current local restrictions.

4. Some people may have all the proper permits in place.

...and I could go on.

Here at BP.net, we don't condone actively breaking the law or encouraging people to break laws by telling them how to do so. But we are NOT the police...we are not here to enforce laws. It is not our responsibility to be aware of every law governing every country, state, city, town, or HOA that our thousands of members might live in.

If we see someone on here telling people how they can sneak around the laws in NYC and buy ball pythons illegally, then we'll put a stop to that. But if we see someone who's profile happens to say NYC and they have a pet ball python....that is their business, and it's not our job to worry about it. ;)

---

Nevermind about that, this one is the best :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

Monetarily worthless? Weed is actually very valuable. There is a thriving market for buying and selling it.

Effectively worthless? Weed will definitely produce an effect. Its even legal in some states for medicinal purposes of which it has more than a few.

I am not sure on what other basis you could call weed worthless. If you are merely referring to the fact that its illegal for recreational use then why not just say that, although it would be stating the obvious.

---

worthless as a recreational drug...
tons of other uses if it was in fact legalized

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adamjeffery

worthless as a recreational drug...

---

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and completely disagree with ya there. :colbert:

:rofl:

ENOUGH.

This is a FAMILY FRIENDLY forum and the banter about recreational drugs needs to stop. The point of this thread was NOT to discuss the legalities of marijuana in the first place. Take that debate to QT, or better yet, skip it altogether.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pythoncrazy

Thank you! This is by far the best post on this thread!

---

Thanks but of course we can all agree that Judy said it best. I simply posted impulsively before reading her post. Its a lesson I have to learn every now and again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Wait, I thought everything was illegal nowadays. Downloading music from the net is illegal too. Is everyone that downloads music shady? Just because the government says something is wrong, does that mean that it really is?

---

Not shady. Just thief’s. taking something that belongs to someone else is theft. That's true whether you steal a car, rob a bank or just download 1 song without compensating the artist who owns the rights to that song. Sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

Not shady. Just thief’s. taking something that belongs to someone else is theft. That's true whether you steal a car, rob a bank or just download 1 song without compensating the artist who owns the rights to that song. Sorry.

---

It's equally not right to fine someone tens of thousands of dollars for a 99 cent song.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

Not shady. Just thief’s. taking something that belongs to someone else is theft. That's true whether you steal a car, rob a bank or just download 1 song without compensating the artist who owns the rights to that song. Sorry.

---

I make decisions based on my morals, not arbitrary laws and regulations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adamjeffery

this statement alone shows your maturity level.
weed is a worthless drug. and no i dont smoke it. drinking is a legal activity that has an age restriction when i was underage i did drink yes. keeping illegal animals...nope, not on my things to do. condoning any illegal animal activity at a time when the government is trying to make laws against any ownership, just shows how little you actually care for our hobby. when you grow up you may see things in a diff light. if you dont grow up then ill see you on cops or in the newspaper.
adam jeffery

---

Agreed about the hobby. I will "mind my own business" when dim wits stop letting out reptiles and making it difficult on me and other people who love this hobby. I have loved herps as long as i can remember. It makes it my business when other people make bad and un-educated decisions with their animals that effect my animals and my life. Be responsible and then we could all "mind our own business."


~Emily

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raptor

It's equally not right to fine someone tens of thousands of dollars for a 99 cent song.

---

I believe in some states it is perfectly legal to shoot a person dead to protect your property. the fine seems pretty small by comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I make decisions based on my morals, not arbitrary laws and regulations.

---

i never said anything about any laws or regulations. If your morals tell you it's ok to steal than go right ahead i guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

I believe in some states it is perfectly legal to shoot a person dead to protect your property. the fine seems pretty small by comparison.

---

Yet more and more people who do so are facing charges. However, there is a vast, vast different between an armed robber who wishes to kill you and downloading a song.

Frankly, piracy isn't a purely black and white issue.

I'm not sure how it's not black and white.

Someone spends a lot of time and effort (and in a lot of cases MONEY) to create something. They let you use it in exchange for some of your money. If you like and it want to use it, you should pay for it. To not do so is enjoying the benefits of someone else's time, talents and effort without giving them their fair compensation.

Like I said earlier, I spend 40-60 hours a week (time I could otherwise be spending with my family and friends, enjoying my hobbies, etc) working. I've invested thousands of hours of hard work into my software and my business partner and I have paid our employees hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years to develop, test and support our software. Our software offers much value to those who decide to use it. In exchange for that value that we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and an untold number of hours on creating, we ask for a small one time fee.

If you pirate and use my software, you are taking money out of my wallet that should otherwise be there. You are benefiting from the monumental effort that goes into that software, but you didn't pay for it. It would be like hiring someone to mow your yard or clean your house and then refusing to pay for it. It's theft, pure and simple... or, if you'd like, black and white.

I completely agree with CapeFear, being a software team manager. It's pretty much an analogy to raising snakes...same concept. I don't like entitlement either.

I paid my software designers, I paid for the software to write my programming, I paid to get the art involved with the software, I invested my time into checking for errors and debugging, I invested my money into an office for my workers, and when I produce software... you're not entitled to it for free.

I paid for the parents, I paid for the food to raise them to breeding age, I paid to heat them, I invested my time cleaning them, I invested my money buying racks, and when I produce babies... you're not entitled to them for free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

If you pirate and use my software, you are taking money out of my wallet that should otherwise be there.

---

I suggest this topic be moved but...

Flawed logic here, are you telling me that everything someone downloads they would of paid for it? Adobe photoshop is the most pirated software, do you honestly think every single person who owns it would of paid for it if it was not free? Every time someone downloads a song they would of paid for it if it was not free? Someone steals your car, your car is gone, someone steals your software, you're software is still there, someone else is benefiting unfairly....yes, but you however are not out anything. That's the black and white picture to me at least.

I want to also add, I am by no mean putting down what you do or saying people should go pirate your software because obviously they shouldn't. Your time, brain, and money has been put into this project, you should be compensated. However I don't believe you can make the statement I quoted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I suggest this topic be moved but...

Flawed logic here, are you telling me that everything someone downloads they would of paid for it? Adobe photoshop is the most pirated software, do you honestly think every single person who owns it would of paid for it if it was not free? Every time someone downloads a song they would of paid for it if it was not free? Someone steals your car, your car is gone, someone steals your software, you're software is still there, someone else is benefiting unfairly....yes, but you however are not out anything. That's the black and white picture to me at least.

I want to also add, I am by no mean putting down what you do or saying people should go pirate your software because obviously they shouldn't. Your time, brain, and money has been put into this project. However I don't believe you can make the statement I quoted

---

I'm not the guy you asked, but...

I kind of think of it like services - mowing the lawn was the example. You may not have anything physically taken from you if someone asks you to mow their lawn but doesn't pay, but you're out your time. If someone takes your software without paying you, you're equally out the time you invested into making it, and time is money.

It's a tough subject for me to wrap my mind around when it comes to theoretical money damages from theft, but I definitely feel if someone takes something without paying for it, and it's required to pay for it, there's a loss there.

I believe this thread has reached the end of its usefulness. The original question was addressed and answered quite clearly. What's come since then is beginning to skirt dangerously close to sounding like encouragement to go out and pirate digital materials because it "doesn't really hurt anyone."

I'd rather end it here than hand out infractions.