Breeding Loan Gone Very BAD!!

So a friend/Breeder decided he had a female Joliff Tiger het Ghost that he wasnt going to breed this year. Im just getting into breeding and he said he would loan me the Tiger het Ghost to throw my pastel male on. We were friends and figured ok cool. Even agreed to split the clutch with him. So my Pastel has locked with this Tiger 3 times visual lock. Maybe more unknown. Today he calls me and says he needs the Tiger back because he wants to put it in a trade with some other stuff to get a BEL. Im sooooo mad right now! Its not about the breeding at this point. Its a fact of I thought he was my friend and cant believe he did this. Now He will possibly have a clutch of snakes that should be half mine!

thats messed up, i dont really have any advice but im sorry your "friend" is trying to screw you on that

this is why you always get some signed papers agreeing to the terms of the loan.. friend or not its just safer to have a written agreement.

Thanks. I know there isnt really anything I can do other than learn from this. Funny thing is He did this. Lost a friend and the guy who he wants to trade with doesnt want anythiing to do with the snake that I was breeding.

If you had a verbal contract to keep his female until she clutches, then you have every right to keep her until then. If anything was written down, even better.

dont give her back till you get your clutch ... simple.

Yea never again will I do a breeding loan without papers signed.

I already gave her back. I really dont want to associate myself with people like that. I also had his yellow belly male that locked with my norm female 4 times. Gave him the YB back also. I told him I want nothing to do with him or his snakes.

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Originally Posted by TKByrnes21783

Yea never again will I do a breeding loan without papers signed.

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A verbal contract or handshake is binding in the US court system. Should have kept the snake. Oh well didn't really lose anything, but you could have gained a good bit.

Yea I could have. But like I said I dont need people like that in my life. Someone that is willing to lose a friend because he got greedy and couldnt wait till I was done with her is not someone I want to be around.

I think what it came down to is... One night I showed him a pic of some pastel tigers and he decided he wanted to have the whole clutch. Dont know that for sure but it doesnt really matter. Ill do my own thing!

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Originally Posted by TKByrnes21783

So a friend/Breeder decided he had a female Joliff Tiger het Ghost that he wasnt going to breed this year. Im just getting into breeding and he said he would loan me the Tiger het Ghost to throw my pastel male on. We were friends and figured ok cool. Even agreed to split the clutch with him. So my Pastel has locked with this Tiger 3 times visual lock. Maybe more unknown. Today he calls me and says he needs the Tiger back because he wants to put it in a trade with some other stuff to get a BEL. Im sooooo mad right now! Its not about the breeding at this point. Its a fact of I thought he was my friend and cant believe he did this. Now He will possibly have a clutch of snakes that should be half mine!

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Let me play devils advocate for a moment here.

First off... It was his snake. Not yours. Why should you be mad that he wants it back?

Second... The breeding season is very early on right now. What makes you think that she is already gravid?

Third... Breeding Loans are always a tough one, because of all of the problems that can arise. Why did you do anything without making sure all bases were covered? Friendship aside, business is business. If things can go wrong, they will...

Live and learn.

It just doesn't make much sense to be overly upset about it. Go and buy yourself a female, and keep everything for yourself. That way, you are covered.

Agree with everything that you just said. Im just mad about it because of the principal. I could care less about the actual breeding. Thats why I gave him the YB back also. I have a couple females that im going to breed. The whole breeding loan wasnt even my Idea. He came to me about it. I dont know that she is gravid but the chance is there that she will have a clutch from my male. Either way.... Like I said ill do my own thing.

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Originally Posted by TKByrnes21783

I already gave her back. I really dont want to associate myself with people like that. I also had his yellow belly male that locked with my norm female 4 times. Gave him the YB back also. I told him I want nothing to do with him or his snakes.

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Sometimes peace of mind's better than enforcing a deal. Sounds like you're going to be a fine, trustworthy breeder. Hope you get a good Yellow Belly x Norm clutch.

Thanks. And I think im going to buy a breeding size YB male and keep going with that. Might just buy a Pastel female while im at it and make super pastels. Working a deal now for a breeder butter male to throw on one of my norm females. Ill be ok. Just needed to vent for a min and this sounded like a good place to do it!

If he is infact your friend like you say, Let him know how you feel and try to work things out. Im sure a friend would understand.

:confused: I dont know he might.

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Originally Posted by BbyBoa

A verbal contract or handshake is binding in the US court system.

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Good luck with that :rolleyes:

I can imagine someone getting a lawyer and trying to get what he thinks he is entitle based on a verbal agreement that may or may not have had any witness. Imagine explaining the whole idea to a lawyer in the first place :gj:

Let's see lawyer + court cost vs a clutch of normals and pastels (maybe 3 of each) that should make it worthy :rolleyes:

Sometimes you just need to live and learn, and not enter a loan lightly and only enter it with people that are mature and have strong ethics.

The good news it's not that much of a loss (probably won't result in anything anyway)

At some point everyone has to write something off as a loss and we learn from that experience.

I am not big on breeding loans for the most part and there is only less then a handful of people I would do a loan with.

Yea I prob will never do it again.

I don't understand how this loses a friend. I don't even understand why your upset this early in the breeding season, I could understand if she was showing signs of being gravid. They came across a trade and did what they wanted with their snake, they after all had the higher dollar snake. I'm surprised they didn't have something genetically farther along to breed her to besides your pastel male also... anyways be happy for them.

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Originally Posted by BbyBoa

A verbal contract or handshake is binding in the US court system. Should have kept the snake. Oh well didn't really lose anything, but you could have gained a good bit.

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LOL a verble contract, a shake, or in some cases a writen contract dont mean squat... justaskthenativeamericans............ its easy to get pissed off,,, but bridges are hard to rebuild.. its probabally not worth loosing a friendship over, and anyways,,,, keep your friends close,, and your enemies closer:cool:
spooky

If you are going to dump a friend over this, then you were never a very good friend to start with. You should be happy that he found such a good deal on the trade he wants to do. He is after all your friend right?

All you had to say was "ok man, you can have her back, but I get one of the Bels babies when she has one!"

It is only a snake! HIS snake at that!

Yeah, they only locked 3 times and it's still October. It's not like he waited until she was ready to lay. Sounds like you're mad because you had your heart set on some cool combo snakes...Which is understandable, but not worth destroying a friendship over.

Its not about the snakes. it the fact that he went back on a deal. Found out what the real deal is. He got mad because I had talked to someone that was interested in what I would possibly make and said he wanted on of the hatchlings. So my friend got upset that I was already having interest in them and he still has snakes from last season and the season before that he cant sell. He said that he didnt loan the snake to me to sell or trade the hatchlings! ???? What ??? Why would I keep a whole clutch of snakes? at most I would keep 2.

totally disagree with the above two posts. if you make a deal with a friend or anyone else and they do not honor their word or agreements, you REALLY need to question why you are friends with them. Today it's a loan agreement, tomorrow? Whatever happened to your word being your bond? Seriously...

I would have done the same.

Frankly, I really question those who feel that bailing out of a verbal agreement after its made is ok. Not sure I would want to deal with those folks as well....even if it is THEIR snake.

If that is really the truth behind why he backed out...you made the right decision. Your dealing with a very immature person.

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Originally Posted by TKByrnes21783

Agree with everything that you just said. Im just mad about it because of the principal. I could care less about the actual breeding. Thats why I gave him the YB back also. I have a couple females that im going to breed. The whole breeding loan wasnt even my Idea. He came to me about it. I dont know that she is gravid but the chance is there that she will have a clutch from my male. Either way.... Like I said ill do my own thing.

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From this alone, I'm thinking he had it all figured out before you did, seeing he came to you about it... read between the lines.

As stated before, peace of mind is sometimes better than enforcing a deal.

Screw him the trade can wait. A deal is a deal and since your male locked on 3 times then your property is inside that snake. So he cant trade it. Even by law you technically own what is in that belly and you have possession which is 9 tenths of the law. Good luck bro.