Obtained my first Ball this weekend, locally from Santa Cruz Reptiles!

Hi there everyone,

Last week I posted a couple of threads with questions in anticipation of obtaining our first Ball Python. Well, this weekend it happened!

We live in lovely Santa Cruz, CA, where Steve Weissman of Santa Cruz Reptiles is making some very well-respected Pastels and Yellowbellies, among others.

http://www.nileguide.com/destination...Santa-Cruz.jpg

I contacted Steve about picking up an adult, and he described and showed me a pic of a 6 year old female pastel that he had bred and raised. He only has a couple of adults for sale, so I took her. Steve is a prolific breeder, so she might be the great great grandmother to of some of your Pastels or Yellowbellies on here!

My kids named her "Jasper". Here she is with my son. This is a fairly accurate representation of her color:

http://www.programaccess.com/jasperand.JPG

Here she is in her tank. Her color doesn't look right in this picture. Her color is more like the picture above:

http://www.programaccess.com/jasper.jpg

Steve was amazing. Since we live in the same town, he graciously hand delivered her to my house and gave us a little lesson on some things he has learned about caring for his animals.

Temperature

First off, he said that his animals aren't that sensitive to cold. He said his animals usually prefer the cool side of the tank to be in the low 70's, and that's where they spend most of their time. So far in my observation, that has been true with Jasper. She prefers the cool side of the tank. Here in Santa Cruz the daytime temps rarely go over 70, and the nighttime temps are usually around 55, and that's year round. Yes, we do get 80+ degree days now and then, and 40 degree nights, but those are rare. Maybe these Balls are just used to the cooler temps? Not sure.

For heating, he recommended a quality heating pad from the drug store and set it on the "medium" setting! He specifically recommended one that had at least a 5-year warranty. The idea being, a good warranty implies that the unit will have higher quality parts, be more consistent across the pad, and not cause a fire. He has had bad experiences with UTH made for reptiles, so we went with his advice. We had an unusually warm weekend this weekend with temps over 80 here. I am using an I/R thermometer "gun" for measurements. During the day, cool side temps were 80, warm side 90-93, at night the cool side dipped down to 73 and warm side was still holding about 90. Jasper really prefers the cool side as far as I can tell, regardless of the temps.

http://img.walgreens.com/dbimagecach..._450x450_a.jpg

Humidity

For humidity, Steve just said that when she "blues out" we should just mist her with a mister a couple times a day, and otherwise the humidity in Santa Cruz is typically fine for them. So, I'm going to take his advice there.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-6031166...2177_551296361

Substrate

For substrate, Steve recommended Healthy Pet Dust Free Cellulose cat litter! He said it's absolutely the best for sanitary reasons, doesn't get in the snakes mouth, is ok even if a little does get in her mouth, and it doesn't make a mess when you pick the snake up. As far as i can tell, it looks like little pebbles or something, but it's actually made of recycled paper. She is resting on some in the image above. I think it looks pretty classy, considering the benefits.

http://www.hpcatlitter.com/177/images/dustfree.jpg

Feeding

Jasper has never eaten a live animal. Steve used to work in a research lab and so he pre-kills his own animals using a humane method he learned in the lab. Personally, I will not do that. So, we are going to attempt f/t and keep our fingers crossed! He said she is currently about 2500g (I will verify later), and she only needs to eat 200g worth of food per month. How we do it is up to us. 100g every 2 weeks, 200g monthly, doesn't matter, as long as we get her 200g per month and feed her at least once per month. We are never going to breed her, so that should be all she needs for the rest of her life. Wish us luck with f/t!

200g per month
http://www.capitaldragons.com/shop/images/rats.jpg

Behavior

Jasper is not shy! Steve said we can handle her as much as we want, right off the bat. He has taken her to Boys and Girls Club educational events, and she seems quite social in my 2 days with her. She likes to wrap around us a lot, she likes to climb up the walls and tries to climb the curtains, she likes to try to get in between the cushions in the couch, and she really seems to be attracted to fuzzy blankets. She twists and turns her neck a ton, even arching her back and going completely upside down in a loop. It's pretty crazy. She is very curious about our faces too. I think she likes the warm breath or something, because she will get really close to our noses and mouths and flick her tongue out and stay there for a bit... definitely a snake with a "personality" if you can call it that.

Other observations

After Steve left I was examining her eyes, and noticed one might have a retained eye cap. I am no expert, so I contacted Steve and he said he will come over next week and take a look himself. I cannot tell you how great Steve has been through this whole process, and I feel fortunate to be able to buy from him locally.

I also noticed that the scales on her belly seem "directional", but the scales on top do not. Does this make sense? Do we need to be especially careful about pulling her backwards across a bed or couch and potentially catching one of those belly scales on something?

Steve said she doesn't need a hide. She has never wanted one as an adult.

Sarcasm?

Is this for real?

Someone appears to be very excited, and wanted to add a little humor to their post!

For starters stay away from that heating pad, get a real reptile one from zoo med, zilla or flexwatt and make sure you get a real thermostat to control it. Do a search on here, there are plenty of post

f/t is not much different than p/k so you should have success, not sure about the cat litter as I use either newspaper and reptibark

This whole thread is a little odd? And yes...Don't pull her across any surface backwards...That may damage her scales.

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Originally Posted by rperry03

Someone appears to be very excited, and wanted to add a little humor to their post!

For starters stay away from that heating pad, get a real reptile one from zoo med, zilla or flexwatt and make sure you get a real thermostat to control it. Do a search on here, there are plenty of post

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^^^ This.

Yeah, get rid of that heating pad and cat litter. Newspaper, Cypress mulch, Aspen, or Coconut husk is your best options. Make sure you have a water bowl and a hide, if they don't have a hide they will become stressed and sometimes rufuse meals and have bad sheds. Check on a Herpstat or a Helix thermostat also. Not sure about this information you were given by Steve, but it seems a little off.

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Originally Posted by rperry03

Someone appears to be very excited, and wanted to add a little humor to their post!

For starters stay away from that heating pad, get a real reptile one from zoo med, zilla or flexwatt and make sure you get a real thermostat to control it. Do a search on here, there are plenty of post

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No sarcasm. This is real. Yes I am excited, as I would hope for a new owner!

The reason I posted all this is because it is so different from everything I've read on this site, and I wanted to share my experience. Perhaps this guy knows more than you think. Do a search for Santa Cruz on this site and you will read about experiences of others with Steve. He seems to be a well-respected breeder of Pastels and Yellowbellies, and he's been doing it for over 15 years full time. Previously he was a University research scientist, and after meeting him I do trust his judgment. He is highly intelligent and cares deeply about his snakes.

After doing research, I was all set to order a Herpstat proportional thermostat, UTHs built for reptile enclosures, etc., but after meeting up with Steve, I will not. He was adamant that I NOT get a UTH made for reptiles. He has had too many bad experiences over the last 15 years with uneven heating and electrical shorts, and he will never recommend them. Sorry guys.

That said, I am interested in hearing any SPECIFIC CONCERNS you would have with the current setup. Overheating? Underheating? Substrate? What would the signs and symptoms look like if these needs are not adequately met?

Does the snake in the picture look unhealthy? In my observation, she doesn't display any of the signs of an unhealthy snake. Definitely no mites or other external parasites. Skin is tight and firm, no loose scales, no wheezing. She is strong, confident, and likes to explore, or can stretch out on my lap and just hang out and watch TV. She has been cared for with the techniques above for all 6 years of her life.

You are going to get 90% of the same answers on here. If you are dead set on using what you posted then use it.

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Originally Posted by ShaleneRafuse

Is this for real?

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has to be a troll...

Congrats on your new snake!! :gj:

Trolololololololololololol. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by catzeye21138

Trolololololololololololol. Just saying.

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Wow. Sorry I posted.

I wish people would share specific concerns. Oh well, this is the Internet, where different ideas are rarely tolerated. I will think long and hard before I post here again.

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Originally Posted by 3ofSwords

Congrats on your new snake!! :gj:

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Thank you.

I would still offer a couple hides. That way the option is there if she wants them.

I don't know about him being a troll. But I do feel he was fed bad information by this guy Steve, i've never heard of him. Go to http://animalplastics.com/ and get a CB-70 rack that is a 3 stack and get a Herpstat or Helix thermostat. Change your substrate, get a water bowl, and hide for your Ball Python.

This forum is the best place to get information, some of the best are on this site. If you refuse it here then you don't want the best help you can get.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Wow. Sorry I posted.

I wish people would share specific concerns. Oh well, this is the Internet, where different ideas are rarely tolerated. I will think long and hard before I post here again.

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Don't feel that way man, catzeye and the other ones needs to check themselves. So please do not post this again. You should feel welcome, members like that who go out of their way to post things like this are the trolls.

First off congrats on your new BP :D
Second, don't be discouraged about posting on here. Everyone here is here to help.
Third, I don't know this Steve guy, but he is feeding you really bad info. Throw that heating pad in the trash and get one designed for reptiles as well as get a
t-stat. Trash that substrate as well. Aspen, cyprus, paper towels, newspaper.
A hide is absolutely necessary as well because it makes your bp feel safe and in turn you won't have problems with feeding and shedding. Hope this helps some. :)

I definitely don't think you are a troll, but you don't find it at all funny that about 99% of the big BP breeders and hobbyists use similar methods for keeping these snakes? One guy says to do it this way...And you discredit all information that everyone is offering? The end of the day...Do as you wish. :gj:

P.s. The snake looks very healthy to me and some snakes do very well without hides. I prefer using hides w/ most of my snakes, but some will never use it and eat fine without it. If she has no hide and is still feeding for you..Don't use one.

Congratulations on your new snake. Obviously there are many ways to successfully keep a healthy snake, so there is no "right" way.

However, I find it interesting that you have so much praise for this "Steve" person and yet discount all of the excellent advice that is on this forum. FWIW, I have lived in the Monterey area for about 20 years now, and have never heard of Steve or done business with him. I'm not saying he is a bad breeder, but he probably isn't as popular as you may believe.

I'm not sure why he would claim reptile UTH are bad and would recommend a regular heat pad. Heat pads are designed for occasional use and reptile UTH are designed for constant use. Personally, I have racks and cages with UTH that I have used for many, many years and have not had a single failure. That's not to say that they will never fail, but I would rely on them much more than a human heat pad.

Good luck with your new snake and congrats again. :)

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Congratulations on your new snake. Obviously there are many ways to successfully keep a healthy snake, so there is no "right" way.

However, I find it interesting that you have so much praise for this "Steve" person and yet discount all of the excellent advice that is on this forum. FWIW, I have lived in the Monterey area for about 20 years now, and have never heard of Steve or done business with him. I'm not saying he is a bad breeder, but he probably isn't as popular as you may believe.

I'm not sure why he would claim reptile UTH are bad and would recommend a regular heat pad. Heat pads are designed for occasional use and reptile UTH are designed for constant use. Personally, I have racks and cages with UTH that I have used for many, many years and have not had a single failure. That's not to say that they will never fail, but I would rely on them much more than a human heat pad.

Good luck with your new snake and congrats again. :)

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Thank you. This is the only post I have seen that offers even semi-specific reasons that the setup might not be ideal. Everyone else is just saying the setup is bad, to trash it, that I am a troll, etc. without giving specific reasons why. I still haven't seen anyone say why the cellulose litter is a bad idea, but plenty of people certainly said to trash it.

However, Steve did give me specific reasons why some of the "standard" items are bad. He has had bad experiences with UTH giving uneven heating and shorting circuits. He has seen snakes ingest Aspen, waste is harder to clean and see, and it tends to make a mess when removing the snake from the tank.

So that is why I was going with his advice and not yours. He was specific. Xdeus at least said human heat pads are designed for occasional use. Not too scientific, but at least it's something.

And thank you to the people who are more welcoming, I appreciate it. I guess in any community there are cool people and not so cool people, same with snake enthusiasts.

To clarify the substrate and heating pad issue, basically the heating pads that are designed for human use are not made to be constantly on. Sure, the ones designed for reptiles can malfunction, as can any electrical device, but they are designed to be on for long long periods of time. There's not really a scientific reason for this, it's just what they are made for, but you are much more likely to experience a malfunction with the one you are using that one designed for reptiles due to the already mentioned fact that they are not designed for long periods of use. As for as the substrate goes, sure, aspen can be consumed, as can any substrate including the cat litter you are currently using. It's really just personal preference but most prefer aspen or cyprus mulch because it holds humidity well.
Hope this helps clarify a little bit and welcome to BP.net :D

I would actually go with a small rack if possible. Most come with Heat tape which is the best option in my opinion. If you decide to get more Ball Pythons, which you probably will. Not many just stop at one :D.

But racks with tubs are going to hold heat and humidity much better. And Flexwatt heat tape is your best option for heat, I haven't really heard of any cases of those malfunctioning.

Hello and welcome to BP.net! I think initially people might have thought your post was a joke just because there was so much information and a good deal of it was information that is not usually supported here.

I think what others have said about the human heating pad is correct. On the picture you posted it even states it has an automatic timer for 2 hours, that means every 2 hours you'd have to go by and turn the pad back on. I use UTH on all my balls and haven't had any issues yet. I will recommend buying a digital thermostat, however, personally I like Hydrofarm's. They are not too terrible price wise, you set a temp, and then it does the rest.

As for the substrate I can only say what I have been using. I have two display tanks that have aspen in them, I also have two tubs with paper towels. I can honestly say the paper towels are a good deal easier than the aspen. You can get white towels for less than a dollar a roll. They will show any mites that might exist, they are also easy to spot any waste or sheds. I think they are a very nice alternative.

I have two adult balls that when I got them the lady said she had never had hides for them and they were perfectly content. Both were happy, ate regularly, etc. I put hides in just to see what would happen, they went straight in. Just because they will do it, doesn't mean its the best situation. You can sleep on the ground, doesn't mean you wouldn't prefer a bed!

Those are my opinions and what I do... but I hope maybe it helped a little. :D

P.S.

Here's a link for the Hydrofarm thermo... check it out. :)

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPR...7237511&sr=8-2

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Originally Posted by Crawly's Mom

Hello and welcome to BP.net! I think initially people might have thought your post was a joke just because there was so much information and a good deal of it was information that is not usually supported here.

I think what others have said about the human heating pad is correct. On the picture you posted it even states it has an automatic timer for 2 hours, that means every 2 hours you'd have to go by and turn the pad back on. I use UTH on all my balls and haven't had any issues yet. I will recommend buying a digital thermostat, however, personally I like Hydrofarm's. They are not too terrible price wise, you set a temp, and then it does the rest.

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Thank you. The sunbeam heat pad has a "continuous on" mode. I made sure when I bought it. I also bought a zoomed heat pad. On visual inspection, the sunbeam appears to be made of higher quality parts. I will test to see if it can be controlled by a tstat tomorrow.

Oh and she ate 2 x 100g rats tonight!

I'm not sure what's with people and the word "troll" lately.. this thread does not seem anywhere near abnormal.

Steve probably gave the OP some basic keeping advice, hence the heat pad and substrate. Xdues is completely correct, there is NO right way of successfully keeping a snake. If the OP is having success with the way that works for him and his snake, then he should be happy with how he's got everything set up.

Congrats on your new Ball! A nice big Pastel female is definitely an awesome starter :gj:.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I'm not sure what's with people and the word "troll" lately.. this thread does not seem anywhere near abnormal.

Steve probably gave the OP some basic keeping advice, hence the heat pad and substrate. Xdues is completely correct, there is NO right way of successfully keeping a snake. If the OP is having success with the way that works for him and his snake, then he should be happy with how he's got everything set up.

Congrats on your new Ball! A nice big Pastel female is definitely an awesome starter :gj:.

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Thank you for the thoughtful reply! Yes, so far the setup is working perfectly. She ate 2 f/t 100g rats last night, no sweat. She went after them immediately, and she clearly isn't stressed.

I am still shocked and dismayed at some of the previous responses in this thread. So far, I haven't seen anyone give specific reasons why the Healthy Pet Cellulose litter is bad, or why the Sunbeam heating pad is bad. If anything, they both seem to be SUPERIOR to the "standard" products mentioned in these forums. The Healthy Pet litter is way more sanitary than any of the other products mentioned here. It is designed to absorb animal waste, is sterilized at the plant, is dust free, doesn't cling to anything, is appropriately sized, and has a pleasing appearance. It is PURE CELLULOSE.

And if the pad works with a tstat (testing this tonight), IMO, it is a superior product to the ZooMed product I also bought. The plastics appear to be higher quality, the plug and cord are higher quality, and the Sunbeam appears to be more like a hospital-grade piece of equipment, whereas the Zoomed uses cheaper plastics and appears flimsier overall. The Zoomed has a 1 year warranty. The Sunbeam has a 5 year warranty... the point is not that I can get my money back if it fails, but rather that the Sunbeam is probably a superior product.

Does anyone actually know if the heating elements in these pads are different, inferior, less lifetime, etc? Does anyone actually have real experience with them? This is not a matter of money for me... I already bought both the Sunbeam and the Zoomed for comparative purposes. If the Sunbeam works with the tstat, I see no reason to go with the flimsier Zoomed product, other than you guys saying to use it because it was designed for reptiles.

Honestly, I think that some of you calling me a troll, a joke, etc, are so invested in your setups that you can't think outside the box and recognize that there are alternatives that might actually be superior. The reptile industry wants you to think that their products are the only products that will work. And since they do work, you believe it. But the reality is that there are other products out there that are similar, and probably higher quality to boot.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Thank you for the thoughtful reply! Yes, so far the setup is working perfectly. She ate 2 f/t 100g rats last night, no sweat. She went after them immediately, and she clearly isn't stressed.

I am still shocked and dismayed at some of the previous responses in this thread. So far, I haven't seen anyone give specific reasons why the Healthy Pet Cellulose litter is bad, or why the Sunbeam heating pad is bad. If anything, they both seem to be SUPERIOR to the "standard" products mentioned in these forums. The Healthy Pet litter is way more sanitary than any of the other products mentioned here. It is designed to absorb animal waste, is sterilized at the plant, is dust free, doesn't cling to anything, is appropriately sized, and has a pleasing appearance. It is PURE CELLULOSE.

And if the pad works with a tstat (testing this tonight), IMO, it is a superior product to the ZooMed product I also bought. The plastics appear to be higher quality, the plug and cord are higher quality, and the Sunbeam appears to be more like a hospital-grade piece of equipment, whereas the Zoomed uses cheaper plastics and appears flimsier overall. The Zoomed has a 1 year warranty. The Sunbeam has a 5 year warranty... the point is not that I can get my money back if it fails, but rather that the Sunbeam is probably a superior product.

Does anyone actually know if the heating elements in these pads are different, inferior, less lifetime, etc? Does anyone actually have real experience with them? This is not a matter of money for me... I already bought both the Sunbeam and the Zoomed for comparative purposes. If the Sunbeam works with the tstat, I see no reason to go with the flimsier Zoomed product, other than you guys saying to use it because it was designed for reptiles.

Honestly, I think that some of you calling me a troll, a joke, etc, are so invested in your setups that you can't think outside the box and recognize that there are alternatives that might actually be superior. The reptile industry wants you to think that their products are the only products that will work. And since they do work, you believe it. But the reality is that there are other products out there that are similar, and probably higher quality to boot.

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Hi.
I can tell you from my own personal experience that the human heating pad is not going to last very long at all. I was in a pinch once and I had to use a human heating pad to warm up a tub for a snake that I had. Well, the heating pad burned out after a week. I ONLY used the human heating pad because I was in a situation where I needed heat fast. Now, I have three snakes and a rack system with flexwatt heat tape. I love it!

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

Hi.
I can tell you from my own personal experience that the human heating pad is not going to last very long at all. I was in a pinch once and I had to use a human heating pad to warm up a tub for a snake that I had. Well, the heating pad burned out after a week. I ONLY used the human heating pad because I was in a situation where I needed heat fast. Now, I have three snakes and a rack system with flexwatt heat tape. I love it!

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Now there is an informed response. Thank you! I will take a look at the flexwatt heat tape option.

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

Yeah, get rid of that heating pad and cat litter. Newspaper, Cypress mulch, Aspen, or Coconut husk is your best options. Make sure you have a water bowl and a hide, if they don't have a hide they will become stressed and sometimes rufuse meals and have bad sheds. Check on a Herpstat or a Helix thermostat also. Not sure about this information you were given by Steve, but it seems a little off.

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I dont see why he should get rid of the cat litter? Its made of Cellulose which is basically cotton and plant fiber so its not harmful to the BP:confused:

And I totally agree with you some of the people on here are a little ridiculous when it comes to topics like this lol:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Honestly, I think that some of you calling me a troll, a joke, etc, are so invested in your setups that you can't think outside the box and recognize that there are alternatives that might actually be superior. The reptile industry wants you to think that their products are the only products that will work. And since they do work, you believe it. But the reality is that there are other products out there that are similar, and probably higher quality to boot.

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Well, you didn't really ask for advice. Instead, you stated what you used and kept praising Steve for his knowledge. Some of the stuff you mentioned goes against much of the advice, experience and knowledge of this community so people will obviously be put off by your post.

If you had asked for advice on heating, we would probably have pointed you to a website such as this: Reptile Basics You're right, though. Zoomed does produce a lot of crap and you will find that most people on this site do not use their products, however that is what you will find in most pet shops. Instead of a Zoomed heat pad or a human heat pad, I would suggest purchasing an Ultratherm heat pad and a reliable thermostat such as a Herpstat or Helix. Those will last you a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by AKballs

I dont see why he should get rid of the cat litter? Its made of Cellulose which is basically cotton and plant fiber so its not harmful to the BP:confused:

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I was recommending what the majority use since they are proven products. Cypress or coconut husk would be the best options since they hold humidity much more efficiently than other products.

First off, once your temps hold I say use what works, and definitely get a t-stat, this will ensure accurate temps. I would also suggest getting a hide. I finally got my Bp a hide after 9 years and I think I really did her a favour so I would recommend getting one.

I live in Barbados so I don't use any form of heating with my Bp and daytime temps are around 85 while night time rarely goes below 75. I'd also suggest using newsprint as substrate... it's cheap and easy to clean

As far as the flimsy-ness of the UTH vs a human heating pad, you have to think about it from a design point. The UTH is designed to be put UNDER a tank that is NOT resting directly on the heater (if you read the directions it'll normally say to use feet or spacers to raise the tank up so you're not crushing the cord, putting undue weight on heater, and for airflow), whereas the heating pad is designed for an average person 105-200lbs to be able to lay on it.

With this in mind you can see why the heating pad may be built with materials for a higher load, however it is also not designed for constant use. I have had quite a few heating pads go out after a couple days to max of 2 weeks under constant use before I went with racks and flexwatt. However all of my lizards and display snakes use UTH's, under normal regulated use (ie rheostat or thermostat), they last for atleast a couple years. Will you find defective products that have issues, yes, but you'll have that under virtually any product.

I have no experience with the substrate, however how does it react to water? I see it's not a clay so it shouldn't clump up, but cotton isn't exactly the best thing for holding moisture without molding. Just because a product COMES sterile, doesn't mean it cannot allow bacteria and mold to grow in it later. #1 reason why people use Cypress is because the trees themselves live either IN or very near to water and takes quite awhile for mold to grow on it.

Not bashing on what you were told, just stating another opinion with some other facts.

I haven't been commenting for awhile, but I do have something to add to this.

Ball Pythons are called "ball" pythons because they get scared so easily and curl up into a ball, hiding their heads and convincing themselves that if they can't see danger, danger can't see them (or so mine think). In nature, they are hiders. They look for termite mounds to hide in. Providing at the very least one hide for your new friend would make her much happier and healthier. We use plastic bowls since plastic is great for humidity.

I know you are concerned about the cleanliness of the bedding you use, and I understand that. However, I'm not sure how well the kitty litter would hold humidity. Humidity is more important to worry about than if snake droppings are visible. We use Aspen and have no problem seeing the presents our snakes leave. As far as cleanliness, most will spot clean once a week and do a thorough cleaning every two weeks or so.

The reason why there are special heat pads made for reptiles is because a reptile's needs are so different from a human's. Please understand that no matter how we say it here, we just want to help you. Some of the biggest breeders in the world post here, and they all use a reptile heating source. The same goes for us hobbyists.

Welcome to the addiction! You can't have just one. I thought that was all a bunch of hot air until I found myself with another ball python... and another... and then two red tail boas, a blood python and a diamond x jungle carpet python.

Please don't leave. We'd like you to stay and join us - we're like a family here. :D

First off, congrats on your new addition. They are addictive.

Second. I haven't heard of this person either and I've done business with many long term breeders. I've heard all the "old ways" and I've never heard anyone recommend a human heating pad because they are notorious for malfunctioning, overheating, or just going out.

Since you have chosen to take the word of one man over an entire community, many of which ARE long term and well known breeders even if they have not replied to this thread, then here is my comment..

If your snake eats regularly for you, never ends up sick with an RI due to the low temps and humidity, and always sheds in one piece, then you will have ended up with one of the few exceptions to the rules of husbandry in the BP world. If this is the way it is 6 months to a year from now then yay, don't change anything. But not many BPs can tolerate 70 degrees for very long without getting sick or deciding not to eat.

Speaking of which.. Heat is necessary for proper digestion of food. If the snake is too cold and it eats, it can cause a regurge, or incomplete digestion. It will sit in the stomach longer, not fully digest, and the snake will not absorb as many nutrients from it. More will be passed when the snake goes to the bathroom.

But anyway..

Generally those "exceptions" are only seen in wild caught specimens which have stronger immune systems from being in the wild but occasionally you may see one in our captive bred BPs.

You have been given some excellent advice and the care sheet on this site is the best one I've ever seen for BPs. Following it's advice pretty much guarantees a BP a long (20-30+ yrs) and healthy life. In the end every keeper is going to do what they feel is right no matter what. Through the years we have all learned through trial and error and this is how today's recommended husbandry came about. So don't get offended when members here get a little defensive about the topic. They truly love their animals and only want what's best for them. They are simply trying to offer help.

Again, congrats on your new BP. She is definitely a pretty pastel.

Hello, and :welcome: to BP.net.
As others have said, there is no one right way to keep a Ball Python. There are many different products and techniques available. We can only recommend /advise on things that have worked best or failed based on our own, or others, experience.
I have never used a human heating pad, so I have no input as to the life-span or durability of them, but I am using both Exo-Terra and Ultratherm under tank heat pads. They have been running, so far, for well over 2 years, without fail.
I also have my preference for substrate, because it's easy to work with, and I was able to get it in bulk. However, my supplier recently decided to get out of the business, so once my stock is used up, I may be looking for something different. I've never seen anyone use cellulose cat litter before, but that doesn't mean it won't work. If you decide to use it, I for one, would appreciate it if you would occasionally update this thread, or post a new one, with a thorough evaluation of the pros and cons of it. That way, we can use your experience with it as a basis for future use or recommendations either for or against it.
As for hides, I provide all of my snake with two hides. Some use them constantly, and some only use them when they go into shed. Whether or not the hides are used is completely up to each snake, but they have the option.
In the end, your ultimate goal is to keep a snake that is healthy, and eats, sheds, and passes waste regularly.

Thank you to all of the recent posters on this thread for giving reasonable and thoughtful advice. Much appreciated over all the hating in some of the early replies.

So far, the substrate surface temps in the cage are maintaining well, but I need to fiddle with the controls as the day warms and cools. Manual control is just turning into a pain for me, so I WILL be switching to a tstat-controlled UTH this weekend. I already have the ZooMed, which appears to be flimsy as heck, so I ordered an Ultratherm in hopes that it has better construction. Once it arrives I will decide between the 2 and hook 1 up to the tstat so that I can just set it and forget it... well, probably not forget it... I check the temps all the time!

As far at the cellulose litter goes, it is specifically designed to absorb animal waste and minimize bacteria and odor. Read about it and read some reviews online and see for yourself if you think it's valuable. I will certainly post updated impressions as time goes on, although I really won't have much to compare it to.

For humidity, I live less than 1 mile from the ocean, and the humidity here is usually in the 90's naturally.

I'll also be adding a hide asap and see if she likes it. If she does, I'll leave it in, and if she doesn't take it after a week I'll probably remove it. Doesn't hurt to try.

Like I said before, she certainly seems happy. She took down those 2 100g f/t rats without any trouble at all, and she displays all the signs (that I've read on here anyway) of a happy snake.

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Oh and she ate 2 x 100g rats tonight!

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Personally I don't know where he's getting his information from. Cat litter is not good at all because the substrate needs to be something that holds humidity well and cat litter does not. Also the heat pad for humans is not made to be on constantly and you will have much more problems with this than a heat pad made for reptiles that is made to be a constant heat source. If you have her in a twenty gallon tank or something like that she needs to be at least a forty gallon breeder, twenty gallons is much too small for an adult ball python. And about this 200g of rat per month this is also incorrect. A ball python of her size should be eating at least an XL rat(275-375g) if not an XXL rat(375-475g) every two weeks. Basically she needs to eat a rat that's as big around maybe slightly smaller than the biggest part of her body every two weeks. I don't know where this guy went to school but he's feeding you bad information. This is the best website for herp information. Some of the best breeders, herp experts, and herp enthusiasts are on this site. You need to listen to what we're telling you.

Also, welcome to BP.net and have a great day :)

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Originally Posted by pythoncrazy

Personally I don't know where he's getting his information from. Cat litter is not good at all because the substrate needs to be something that holds humidity well and cat litter does not. Also the heat pad for humans is not made to be on constantly and you will have much more problems with this than a heat pad made for reptiles that is made to be a constant heat source. If you have her in a twenty gallon tank or something like that she needs to be at least a forty gallon breeder, twenty gallons is much too small for an adult ball python. And about this 200g of rat per month this is also incorrect. A ball python of her size should be eating at least an XL rat(275-375g) if not an XXL rat(375-475g) every two weeks. Basically she needs to eat a rat that's as big around maybe slightly smaller than the biggest part of her body every two weeks. I don't know where this guy went to school but he's feeding you bad information. This is the best website for herp information. Some of the best breeders, herp experts, and herp enthusiasts are on this site. You need to listen to what we're telling you.

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For your information, I don't know anyone on this site that feeds their ball pythons XL or XXL rats.

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

For your information, I don't know anyone on this site that feeds their ball pythons XL or XXL rats.

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I was going on sizes based on rodentpro.com if you look at the picture XL rats are about as wide as a dollar so an adult female ball python should be able to eat one easily. I'm not sure that I would agree to the ages this website has for rat sizes but they say an adult sized rat is XL and a large rat is 45-60 days old. And XL rats from their pictures are not much bigger than large rats. But I heard from yahoo answers that an adult sized rat is five-six months old so I don't know.

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Originally Posted by pythoncrazy

I was going on sizes based on rodentpro.com if you look at the picture XL rats are about as wide as a dollar so an adult female ball python should be able to eat one easily. I'm not sure that I would agree to the ages this website has for rat sizes but they say an adult sized rat is XL and a large rat is 45-60 days old. And XL rats from their pictures are not much bigger than large rats. But I heard from yahoo answers that an adult sized rat is five-six months old so I don't know.

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Surely there is a scientific formula for appropriate feeding of a snake, represented as a proportion of food weight to snake weight. I have not seen it yet on this site. Most of what I read expresses the formula as something like "one large rat every 2 weeks". That's just not very accurate IMO.

Please can someone who actually knows this tell me what the formula should be? For example "10% of body weight per month" or whatever the correct formula should be?

Hi, I believe it is 15% of their body weight for the weight of the rodent.

Good Luck

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Originally Posted by L.West

Hi, I believe it is 15% of their body weight for the weight of the rodent.

Good Luck

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Frequency needs to be part of the formula.

Frequency as I understand it varies depending on the time of the year. Females preparing to breed will eat once a week, however, once every other week for a ball python who is not breeding is good.

I think you should perhaps take a look at what you're doing and the opinions you have made. I know you were told one thing by a breeder who you believe was reliable, however, nobody seems to have heard of this breeder. This is one of the most reputable sites for ball pythons on the web, many top name breeders frequent it. You don't think its odd nobody has heard of this person or that everyone disagrees with him?

Not a single person has said, yes the substate and heating choice is a good idea. You have had educated responses where people explain why these choices are made, why there are alternatives better than what you're using and yet you choose to believe one person who nobody has heard of. Sometimes there are alternatives, yes, but there are also methods that have been proven to work for many people. Why go out on a limb when you have the information right in front of you that everyone knows works?

This thread is getting confusing... :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by Smoked Oyster

Surely there is a scientific formula for appropriate feeding of a snake, represented as a proportion of food weight to snake weight. I have not seen it yet on this site. Most of what I read expresses the formula as something like "one large rat every 2 weeks". That's just not very accurate IMO.

Please can someone who actually knows this tell me what the formula should be? For example "10% of body weight per month" or whatever the correct formula should be?

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I don't believe that there is any concrete formula to follow. Only recommended guidelines based on experience with different species. It is generally recommended for 10%-15% per week for juvenile BP's because they are growing rapidly and will utilize the extra nutrition, but even this guideline doesn't hold true for all species. At some point, feeding frequency and prey size will have to be adjusted for each individual snake based on what keeps them feeding regularly and healthy, whether it's 1,2,3, or 4 times a month will vary. Also vigilance must be maintained by the keeper so as to not overfeed, so the snake maintains a healthy weight and does not become obese. Just because some of my snakes would eat every 3-4 days if I let them, doesn't mean they should.
Based on my previous experience with an adult BP that was comparable in size, weight, and age (54", 2500g, 5 y/o) as the OP's, and the feeding issues that I had to work out by trial and error, I would suggest feeding one rat (100g) every 10-14 days. While alot of Ball Pythons are more than capable of taking larger rats, and many do, still, there are some who will not eat anything much larger. The only reason that I can come up with as to why is that a Ball Pythons natural prey would be African Soft Furs, and it is my understanding that adult ASF's are only about 70-90 grams. So possibly, there is some instinct that that dictates what prey size they are attracted to.

I also don't understand why there is so much fuss in this thread about the litter substrate and humidity. As long as the relative humidity is maintained, whether it be through environmental conditions, or regulated through husbandry techniques. Newspaper and paper towels are not the best at holding humidity but many people use them successfully. At some point, someone was the first to try them.
Apparently, there is at least one breeder who is using the litter substrate successfully. Yes, I agree that there may be a higher chance for mold, but I tend to think that with frequent spot cleanings and routine substrate changes, this could be kept to a minimum, if not prevented entirely. That is why I asked the OP to post updates on how this particular substrate was working for them. Or, if possible, invite the breeder to join this forum and post a thread on their use and experience with this product. Whether or not I would ever use it depends on things such as availability, cost, quantity,etc... But it's nice to know that the option is there should I ever need, or want it...

there is no real set formula, at least not in terms a scientifically 'proven' equation if that's what you're alluding to. it's an animal, not a piece of machinery that can only function under a particular set of circumstances. it would make just as little sense to tell dog owners that black labs can only be given two cups of dry food every morning across the board no matter what. you appear very quick to come down on the people freely offering you advice. good advice. as noted, there is no one correct way to keep ball pythons. rather there is a font of good information that has been arrived at based on experience and observations. some of the responses you've received in this post that have perhaps put you off can be attributed to your ostensible unyielding demeanor. it's fine to take advice with a grain of salt, but you seem to be very demanding. try to be a little more amenable to what you've been told, especially by the moderators, even if others come off as antagonistic or pedantic.

as for the feeders, again it is variable. many people feed various sizes and with changing frequency depending on the circumstances and on what they have determined works the best for their set-ups and goals. certainly power feeding is to be avoided, but there is no 'formula' because no two snakes are exactly alike. the formula also changes throughout the life cycle. young hatchlings can be fed 'appropriately sized' meals every 5-7 days. fully grown adults may not need to eat more than twice a month. as a general rule, 10-15% of the body mass, avoiding anything that is larger than your snake at its midsection, is good advice. the frequency is largely left up to you. you can feed almost any ball that is willing every 7 days without worrying. some snakes also go on protracted hunger strikes for months but remain healthy. if your personal goals are not breeding and simply to own a healthy snake, you could feed once every 10-14 days given how old your pastel is. either way it's up to you.