Identity crisis!

So, the wonderful little slithery dude I fell in love with 2 weeks ago turns out to be a dudette!

Total paradigm shift....my reality is forever altered...I've been head faked...shell shocked...freaked out!

Anyway, gender-bending psychological parameter shifts aside, what can I expect from having a python princess?

I've read that they get somewhat larger than males but what about the whole ovulation deal?

If not bred, will they simply reabsorb?

Temperament differences, if any?

[Should I remove the skull and put lacy curtains and doilies in her habitat?]

:P

The snake shop guy also said she's about 6-8 months old, has not been fed large enough food for her whole life and even though she'd already eaten 2 fuzzy mice last night, he whacked a grown mouse which she promptly inhaled as though she'd been on a year long fast.

[I had no idea she could gag down anything that big]

He only feeds live due to a bad supplier ruining his business with contaminated mice years ago but will pre-whack and pack frozen mice for me.

He will not sell me rats yet...says he will tell me when she's ready and expressed an opinion that 'scaring' her with a rat might make her a classic non-eater python.

[which I personally can't fathom happening, given her current gluttonous ways but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for her sake]

He let me hold a gorgeous adult pastel.

[I never wanted to let go but I didn't have $400 bucks to let go of, either]......:tears:


What are the odds of getting a gal python at PetCo?

Whatever they are, I reckon I beat them.

I really can't get used to saying "she", yet.

He had some really huge "not for sale" snakes in that place.

A 16 foot Burmese.

OMG.

It looked like a fire hose coiled up....I couldn't see where it ended.

:O

I'm guessing your odds of getting a female ball python at petco is about 50% :P

My first was a girl too.

They don't separate em, or sex em.


Grats by the way.

The only difference is size. Females usually do get a bit larger but not so large u should worry. If she develops follicles she will reabsorb them unless bred. Temps and everything else is the same. When she's an adult she will need a bigger enclosure than a male would need. So enjoy her, if she has a male name u like then keep it, she still isn't going to listen to u LOL

Any idea on her weight? My hatchinglings eat small adult mice. After 2-3 feedings. No way a 6-8 month should be on hoppers. And if she is it would be 6-8 per feeding. Id go with the rats. Find another supplier for feed. Dont understand why someone wouldnt sell u one. That doesnt really make much sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I'm guessing your odds of getting a female ball python at petco is about 50% :P

My first was a girl too.

They don't separate em, or sex em.


Grats by the way.

---

OMG...the PetCo folks must either be goofy or or running a disinformation scam.

They said it was 'most likely male' as the females are usually kept as breeders and are more 'valuable'.

My head is still spinning...LOL

The snake store has an awesome big "normal" male for $89 but his colors are very drab.

Iggy [or whatever her name will be] is very colorful.
Her splotches are a golden caramel against a black background whereas the male in the store was sort of -light-brown-on-dark brown.

Will she retain her colors or do they all go "camo" when they grow up?

Thanks for the 'grats...I can't believe what I've been missing all these years.

I used to routinely go snag snakes from the woods and fields as a kid but always only kept them a few days and then took back to their wild homes.

This is my first "forever snake" and I'm not ashamed to admit I'm addicted.

I'm already picturing the spare bedroom upstairs stacked with boxes with a full spectrum of BP morphs in them.....LOL

[I think I've contracted Python Fever!]

:O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mpkeelee

The only difference is size. Females usually do get a bit larger but not so large u should worry. If she develops follicles she will reabsorb them unless bred. Temps and everything else is the same. When she's an adult she will need a bigger enclosure than a male would need. So enjoy her, if she has a male name u like then keep it, she still isn't going to listen to u LOL

---

Thanks...I was really worried about the whole "hormonal cycle thing".

She already has a 40 gallon breeder tank so space shouldn't be any issue for her later on.

I haven't decided whether to change her name or not.

I know the sound of my voice does prompt her to poke her head out of her turtle shell hide [thereby making her look like the scrawniest tortoise on earth] but I'm not saying anything to her, in particular.


As far as her actually doing anything I ask her to, I gave up on that about 2 hours after I got her......:P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Simplex

Any idea on her weight? My hatchinglings eat small adult mice. After 2-3 feedings. No way a 6-8 month should be on hoppers. And if she is it would be 6-8 per feeding. Id go with the rats. Find another supplier for feed. Dont understand why someone wouldnt sell u one. That doesnt really make much sense.

---

My craptastic Oneida digital food scale said [as of yesterday, pre-adult-mouse meal] that she weighed 134 grams.

That seems much too light, to me.

She has no "bulk" whatsoever.
[she really seems more like 'teen' rat snake than a python, body-wise]

The PetCo people predicted Dire Consequences if I dared to give her larger food.

[an inverted rectum, to be precise, as per an anecdote about a particular snake in the employee's care]

I totally agree with you about the rats.

Of all the info I've absorbed in 12 short days, everyone is in universal agreement on the superiority of rats as food.

His "reasons" were many and complex; 'spoiled/salmonella plague frozen rodents/snake colony wipe-out" many years ago'.
[times have changed, suppliers have vastly improved, I'm sure]
"Frozen rodents come from labs".
[not so for the reputable suppliers]
"Frozen rodents 'go bad' after a very short time..."3 weeks" and they're "no good any more".
[I doubt that....frozen meat is frozen meat, IMO]

She might eat frozen *now* but "something will "put her off her food" and I'll have to resort to live food or she'll die, in the future.
[she's a very willing, even greedy eater!]

He was really, really dead-set against them.

He had hubby totally convinced until I offered to forward him many pics of snakes mangled/killed by their ersatz "suppers".

I have 3 small but uppity female pet rats and I had to move their "condo" around the corner from Iggy because they were scoping her out with That Look on their faces.
I know they would've shredded her, given half the chance.

I should put something like that in with my poor little gal, alive?

I don't think so.

There are garter snakes, milk snakes, ring neck snakes and small rat snakes everywhere here....you can't tell me they're surviving on the odd litter of mouse pups they might find *whenever*.

Iggy wasn't even on hoppers..I was sold fuzzies.
These things didn't even have their eyes open yet and couldn't hop anywhere.
They were tiny!
No wonder she'd keep looking around for more mice after I'd "push the boundary" and feed her 2 of them.

Ack!

Why can't pet store employees know something about the pets they sell?

I'm going to Repticon tomorrow.

I'm sure somebody there will have rat pups for sale....I hope.

IT could be that your petco gets balls from a breeder, but I still don't think they would be separating out females. If they are breeding, they most likely don't care 2 squats about female normals :)

Both store's employees sound like typical pet store employees that really don't know as much as they'd like you to believe that they know.

I feed all of mine live, even hatchlings. Live rats, not stunned or knocked out. I've never had one injured - and I even feed off retired breeder rats to my largest breeder females.

I was fed the line "females are more valuable to breeders than males, so there are not females in the pet trade" line by a small mom/pop store near me, yet he has females (he doesn't know how to sex, and for the longest would not allow me to sex them, because I'd "sterilize" them by sexing them - funny how I haven't sterilized any of my breeders! LOL).

Most breeders aren't keeping female normals, because they're replacing them with morph females. Most of us will wholesale our normals to pet stores, males and females.

That is extremely light if her age is correct, though I'm not sure how Petco knows what the age is, considering their supply are captive hatched animals imported from Africa, and not supplied by local breeders. They cost Petco less than $10 a head.

Feed what you're comfortable feeding, but don't be scared off by the horror stories of feeding live. Most of the pictures you've seen are a result of an irresponsible keeper putting live prey in with their snakes for days, with no food or water for the rodent, so they eat the only thing available to them - the snake, if the snake has refused to eat them.

I've fed off over 15K live prey - mice, rats - none of mine have been maimed or killed by their food. If I felt that my collection was in jeopardy by feeding live, I would not feed live, as I have some nice critters in my collection, and I wouldn't put them at risk, if I believed it to be true. My personal experience demonstrates otherwise.

My hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies, and moved up rather quickly to rat pups, then small rats.

Congrats on your ball python - we need pictures though! :)

nothing irks me more then that person that spews nothing but nonsense about how "feeding live prey is horrible, wrong & evil!" you have to feed what your snake will eat, simple as that.
my mojo girl will ONLY eat live & if offered dead she looks at me like "hey i did not kill that so dont expect me to eat it:colbert:." i swear she turns her nose up at it as if i've insulted her somehow. so that "feed f/t or pre killed prey only" thing is a load of crock for those that have animals that will only take live.
now lemme clarify those that are successfully feeding f/t or prekilled, awesome & i hope you continue having success doing so but for me i'm stuck with what my girl will take. in fact she just ate today after not having eaten for a month & i had to go down to very young rat pups, crawlers with their eyes still closed. my snake ate the 1st one but now i have to hand feed the 2nd little one for anther 2 weeks before i offer it again.
granted my snake has not been bitten by a rat yet but there have been a couple that have gotten defensive & 1 pounced on my snake's head & she didnt eat for 3 weeks cuz of that. i watch her feedings VERY closely & once i sit down to start a feeding i dont leave from that spot until she's either done & retreated to a hide to digest, if she's eaten. i only leave the rat in long enough for the snake to decide if she's gonna eat it & the second she shies away from it i promptly remove the rat, that way the rat doesnt have time to think about getting defensive or aggressive towards my snake.
about prey size though, the general rule of thumb is the prey should be slightly smaller then or equal to the size of the thickest part of the snakes body but preferrably the slightly smaller. my girl only takes prey smaller then her thickest part & i'm fine with that as long as she just eats. this having to get very young pups thing was only done cuz its been so long since she last ate & i had to go small so as to not overwhelm her system. i'll have to work her back up to weaned rats or the smallest of the smalls again, which is what she was taking before she went on this month long no feeding thing. i'm fairly able to correctly visually gauge the sizes of rats i need, for the most part.
so again, dont fall into that fear trap that those store employees like to throw you into. you do what you have to do with whatever your snake chooses to take & stick to it. your doing what you have to do to care for your pet & no one has the right to tell you what your doing is wrong.

Agreed, I try to convert all of mine over to F/T. But if they won't take then i feed live. What poeple fail to realize is that it is life, you have the prey and the predator. I'd hate for those types to go herping and see it in the wild.

We have similar stories haha. I didnt find out I had a ball princess until I learned how to pop myself XDD. She also had a mess of feeding issues because they dont know how to feed properly at the pet store I got her from. She's getting to a good weigh slowly, but it took a long time to even get as good as we are. trust me, soon it will feel off when you accidentally call her a him XDD I feel bad whenever I do that these days haha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

Agreed, I try to convert all of mine over to F/T. But if they won't take then i feed live. What poeple fail to realize is that it is life, you have the prey and the predator. I'd hate for those types to go herping and see it in the wild.

---

The problem is that I can't deal with live feeding.

I've had pet rats and mice [and still have rats] and simply cannot do it.

I went to Repticon today and brought back a male Fire.

Supposedly he was being switched over to frozen and for whatever reason, has not been fed for 2 weeks due to the breeder's show schedule.

He doesn't want the mouse I gave him even after I plopped it in his house and left him be, as per the guy's instructions.

[hopefully it's all the stress and confusion of the show, the people and going from living in Tupperware for a year to a 40 gallon breeder tank which he has not stopped exploring and gawping at since we got home]

Wish me luck because if he won't eat frozen, he's got to go back.

I grew up raising and slaughtering our own meat.
It's not an issue of being 'girly' or naive.
I just got done a round of rabies shots last week after getting in between [and later calmly capping] the 3 rabid coons who were after my dogs.

I don't think life is a Disney movie.

I live in the mountains and see nature red in tooth and claw all the time.

A critter in the wild has a chance to escape the predator...a mouse tossed into a cage with a snake doesn't.
Nature doesn't work that way.
Prey and predator perform a gruesome pas de deux that one or the other wins only because it was bigger, quicker or smarter....not because the prey was hopelessly trapped in a box.

I'm sorry but I can't do that.

I won't do that.

Ironically, the guy is switching to frozen because his wife feels the same way I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riv

We have similar stories haha. I didnt find out I had a ball princess until I learned how to pop myself XDD. She also had a mess of feeding issues because they dont know how to feed properly at the pet store I got her from. She's getting to a good weigh slowly, but it took a long time to even get as good as we are. trust me, soon it will feel off when you accidentally call her a him XDD I feel bad whenever I do that these days haha.

---

A different seller double verified the new snake's sex for me beyond all shadow of a doubt.

He "popped" him, handed him back to me and exclaimed that the snake was ready to breed "right now!".

It was then that I noticed a tiny splat of something wet, off-white and icky on my hand.

Yes.
It was.

Horrid hubby said "See! I told you he really likes you!".

Sometimes I hate men.

:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Both store's employees sound like typical pet store employees that really don't know as much as they'd like you to believe that they know.

I feed all of mine live, even hatchlings. Live rats, not stunned or knocked out. I've never had one injured - and I even feed off retired breeder rats to my largest breeder females.

I was fed the line "females are more valuable to breeders than males, so there are not females in the pet trade" line by a small mom/pop store near me, yet he has females (he doesn't know how to sex, and for the longest would not allow me to sex them, because I'd "sterilize" them by sexing them - funny how I haven't sterilized any of my breeders! LOL).

Most breeders aren't keeping female normals, because they're replacing them with morph females. Most of us will wholesale our normals to pet stores, males and females.

That is extremely light if her age is correct, though I'm not sure how Petco knows what the age is, considering their supply are captive hatched animals imported from Africa, and not supplied by local breeders. They cost Petco less than $10 a head.

Feed what you're comfortable feeding, but don't be scared off by the horror stories of feeding live. Most of the pictures you've seen are a result of an irresponsible keeper putting live prey in with their snakes for days, with no food or water for the rodent, so they eat the only thing available to them - the snake, if the snake has refused to eat them.

I've fed off over 15K live prey - mice, rats - none of mine have been maimed or killed by their food. If I felt that my collection was in jeopardy by feeding live, I would not feed live, as I have some nice critters in my collection, and I wouldn't put them at risk, if I believed it to be true. My personal experience demonstrates otherwise.

My hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies, and moved up rather quickly to rat pups, then small rats.

Congrats on your ball python - we need pictures though! :)

---

A local private herp store owner guesstimated her age.
I really have no idea how old she is other than his guess.
She's about 18-21 inches long, if that means anything.

This is Iggy

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/iggy3.jpg

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/iggy1.jpg

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/iggydigs1.jpg



And this is her yet-to-be-named new buddy.

http://www.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/newsnake1.jpg

(who thinks he can stand up)

http://www.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/newsnake2.jpg

http://www.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/newsnake3.jpg

Personally I think they look very similar but every dealer I talked to said the new snake is a "Fire".

What "difference" am I missing, here?

He's more 'golden' than she is and that's all I see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salamander

He will not sell me rats yet...says he will tell me when she's ready and expressed an opinion that 'scaring' her with a rat might make her a classic non-eater python.

[which I personally can't fathom happening, given her current gluttonous ways but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for her sake]

---

Oh what a load of crap! None of our ball pythons have ever seen a mouse in our care. You'd be amazed what they can swallow, although they should still be given appropriate sized meal, which general rule of thumb is as big around as the fattest part of their body or 10-15% of the snake's body weight. I've got some shy eaters that prefer smaller meals or stunned meals, but none that have ever been "scared" into a "classic non-eater ball python" because I offered an appropriately sized meal. Don't listen to anything those guys say. If you need answers, come here. Most of us have been keeping and breeding balls and other reptiles for many years and we are always here to help. I don't think there is anyone here who will say we don't know what we are talking about, although we all have our own varying techniques.

I love how he said that frozen rats go bad in a very short time. Although we only use f/t for younger corns, I've had feeders in the freezer for months at a time with no ill effects. Like you said, frozen meat is frozen meat. Also about them coming from a lab, get real. We supply a couple local businesses with rats, mice and asf and I would hardly consider our bathroom a lab. An experiment, for sure, but in no way is it a lab. :rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Both store's employees sound like typical pet store employees that really don't know as much as they'd like you to believe that they know.

I feed all of mine live, even hatchlings. Live rats, not stunned or knocked out. I've never had one injured - and I even feed off retired breeder rats to my largest breeder females.

I was fed the line "females are more valuable to breeders than males, so there are not females in the pet trade" line by a small mom/pop store near me, yet he has females (he doesn't know how to sex, and for the longest would not allow me to sex them, because I'd "sterilize" them by sexing them - funny how I haven't sterilized any of my breeders! LOL).

Most breeders aren't keeping female normals, because they're replacing them with morph females. Most of us will wholesale our normals to pet stores, males and females.

That is extremely light if her age is correct, though I'm not sure how Petco knows what the age is, considering their supply are captive hatched animals imported from Africa, and not supplied by local breeders. They cost Petco less than $10 a head.

Feed what you're comfortable feeding, but don't be scared off by the horror stories of feeding live. Most of the pictures you've seen are a result of an irresponsible keeper putting live prey in with their snakes for days, with no food or water for the rodent, so they eat the only thing available to them - the snake, if the snake has refused to eat them.

I've fed off over 15K live prey - mice, rats - none of mine have been maimed or killed by their food. If I felt that my collection was in jeopardy by feeding live, I would not feed live, as I have some nice critters in my collection, and I wouldn't put them at risk, if I believed it to be true. My personal experience demonstrates otherwise.

My hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies, and moved up rather quickly to rat pups, then small rats.

Congrats on your ball python - we need pictures though! :)

---

Listen to this man! He knows his stuff. Like him, all of our hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies and we have NEVER had a problem with them being scared into a non-feeder. Also as he said, feeding live isn't an issue if you are responsible. Feeding f/t is entirely up to you, though. If you can't stomach it and your ball is willing to accept f/t, all power to ya.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

Oh what a load of crap! None of our ball pythons have ever seen a mouse in our care. You'd be amazed what they can swallow, although they should still be given appropriate sized meal, which general rule of thumb is as big around as the fattest part of their body or 10-15% of the snake's body weight. I've got some shy eaters that prefer smaller meals or stunned meals, but none that have ever been "scared" into a "classic non-eater ball python" because I offered an appropriately sized meal. Don't listen to anything those guys say. If you need answers, come here. Most of us have been keeping and breeding balls and other reptiles for many years and we are always here to help. I don't think there is anyone here who will say we don't know what we are talking about, although we all have our own varying techniques.

I love how he said that frozen rats go bad in a very short time. Although we only use f/t for younger corns, I've had feeders in the freezer for months at a time with no ill effects. Like you said, frozen meat is frozen meat. Also about them coming from a lab, get real. We supply a couple local businesses with rats, mice and asf and I would hardly consider our bathroom a lab. An experiment, for sure, but in no way is it a lab. :rofl:



Listen to this man! He knows his stuff. Like him, all of our hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies and we have NEVER had a problem with them being scared into a non-feeder. Also as he said, feeding live isn't an issue if you are responsible. Feeding f/t is entirely up to you, though. If you can't stomach it and your ball is willing to accept f/t, all power to ya.

---

You have no idea how hard I was biting my lips the whole time I was there.
I only went to get the frozen dead things his site advertised.

I'd already voraciously read everything here and his BS was driving me insane.

Hubby was defending the guy because he had a reptile store, knew scary stories and had to know what he was talking about to be in the business.

As if.

I was trying to avoid a 2 hours drive for snake food *today* by going there *yesterday*.
We politely paid for 3 dead mice and when we got back to the truck, I quietly said "Looks like we're going to Baltimore, after all" and we did.

Oh well.

At least I got a new snake that really is a boy.


LOL


[sick humor alert: if you want to unconvince your mate that "dead meat goes bad in 3 weeks", tell them you're going home and feed all the frozen steaks they've been hoarding for *months* to your Dobermann...totally changes their mind like you wouldn't believe]

And yeah....I went there....:)

I can understand your reluctance to feed live. I went through the exact same thing. My daughter raises pet rats that I play with daily for Pete's sake!!

However, over time, faced with feeding refusals and wasted frozen rodents that cost me money and stress and what not, I got over it.

By all means, search out a supplier of frozen rats, buy online if you must, just be prepared for outrageous shipping prices, and do what makes you comfortable right now.

I will give a bit of advice on F/T. If that rodent isn't HOT most snakes won't touch it. What I do is thaw the rodent at room temp for a few hours, submerge it in a thin stream of running hot tap water for 30 minutes, towel dry the rodent then dry it with a hair dryer. Once it's nice and dry and toasty warm, grip it with feeding tongs, heat JUST the head for about 30 seconds, then offer it.

Make sure you don't shove the rodent in the snakes face, I offer it on the opposite side of the tub from the snake. If you did things right, that rodent will be putting off a massive heat signature, which is how snakes hunt. And BAM! No more rodent.

Your girl is indeed thin, and you should step her up to at least rat pups ASAP. You new boy will need at least a week to relax and settle in before trying to feed him. Make sure you read and re-read the caresheets, because a 40 gallon tank is huge for one of those little guys, and you are going to need to be on your toes to make it an ideal home. By the way, even from your pictures I can tell your boy is almost certainly a fire. Fire's are a subtle morph, but he'll get more beautiful as he grows. If you want your mind blown, visit http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs and have a box of tissue's ready for the drool.

Gale

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

Listen to this man! He knows his stuff. Like him, all of our hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies and we have NEVER had a problem with them being scared into a non-feeder. Also as he said, feeding live isn't an issue if you are responsible. Feeding f/t is entirely up to you, though. If you can't stomach it and your ball is willing to accept f/t, all power to ya.

---

Last I checked, this man is a woman! :P Yup - just checked, I'm still a woman! LOL

OP - did you put the fire in the same enclosure as your other snake? Some of the decorations look identical, which is why I ask.

I don't expect that your fire would eat the same day that you bought it, and I expect it even less if it's constantly exploring. A content ball python is one that is NOT restless and that you will never see during day light hours (because it's hidden inside a hide). A stressed ball python is one that is constantly roaming and stretching to the top of the enclosure.

A forty gallon enclosure is HUGE - two of them must be a pain to completely break down and disinfect every month or so. I hope you have two, one for each snake. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salamander

The problem is that I can't deal with live feeding.

I've had pet rats and mice [and still have rats] and simply cannot do it.

I went to Repticon today and brought back a male Fire.

Supposedly he was being switched over to frozen and for whatever reason, has not been fed for 2 weeks due to the breeder's show schedule.

He doesn't want the mouse I gave him even after I plopped it in his house and left him be, as per the guy's instructions.

[hopefully it's all the stress and confusion of the show, the people and going from living in Tupperware for a year to a 40 gallon breeder tank which he has not stopped exploring and gawping at since we got home]

Wish me luck because if he won't eat frozen, he's got to go back.

I grew up raising and slaughtering our own meat.
It's not an issue of being 'girly' or naive.
I just got done a round of rabies shots last week after getting in between [and later calmly capping] the 3 rabid coons who were after my dogs.

I don't think life is a Disney movie.

I live in the mountains and see nature red in tooth and claw all the time.

A critter in the wild has a chance to escape the predator...a mouse tossed into a cage with a snake doesn't.
Nature doesn't work that way.
Prey and predator perform a gruesome pas de deux that one or the other wins only because it was bigger, quicker or smarter....not because the prey was hopelessly trapped in a box.

I'm sorry but I can't do that.

I won't do that.

Ironically, the guy is switching to frozen because his wife feels the same way I do.

---

Honestly? You're going to have to get over your aversion to feeding live, because I can pretty much guarantee that there's going to come a day that you may have to feed live.

What if a year from now both of your snakes go off feed, refuse to eat f/t and begin to lose weight? Are you going to allow them to lose significant amounts before you offer them live? Or will you just re-home them?

Accepting responsibility for the care of these critters also means that you accept that there are going to be some things you have to do, that you have an aversion to.

I am an animal lover. I love my rats, and I don't enjoy feeding day at all. But I knew what I was getting into when I purchased my first ball python.

Why do you care if a mouse or rat has a chance to escape or not? The f/t cousins didn't get a chance to escape being gassed, or having their heads crashed against a hard surface either. What difference does it make if human killed it or your snake kills it? Maybe I'm not understanding the argument.

Let me be clear - I'm not trying to talk you INTO feeding live, as I advocate people feeding what works for them. But I also advocate being OPEN to feeding live if it's the only thing your snake will eat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

I can understand your reluctance to feed live. I went through the exact same thing. My daughter raises pet rats that I play with daily for Pete's sake!!

However, over time, faced with feeding refusals and wasted frozen rodents that cost me money and stress and what not, I got over it.

By all means, search out a supplier of frozen rats, buy online if you must, just be prepared for outrageous shipping prices, and do what makes you comfortable right now.

I will give a bit of advice on F/T. If that rodent isn't HOT most snakes won't touch it. What I do is thaw the rodent at room temp for a few hours, submerge it in a thin stream of running hot tap water for 30 minutes, towel dry the rodent then dry it with a hair dryer. Once it's nice and dry and toasty warm, grip it with feeding tongs, heat JUST the head for about 30 seconds, then offer it.

Make sure you don't shove the rodent in the snakes face, I offer it on the opposite side of the tub from the snake. If you did things right, that rodent will be putting off a massive heat signature, which is how snakes hunt. And BAM! No more rodent.

Your girl is indeed thin, and you should step her up to at least rat pups ASAP. You new boy will need at least a week to relax and settle in before trying to feed him. Make sure you read and re-read the caresheets, because a 40 gallon tank is huge for one of those little guys, and you are going to need to be on your toes to make it an ideal home. By the way, even from your pictures I can tell your boy is almost certainly a fire. Fire's are a subtle morph, but he'll get more beautiful as he grows. If you want your mind blown, visit http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs and have a box of tissue's ready for the drool.

Gale

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Iggy is in a 20L and seems happier.
[with all her hides, water bowl and whatnot, I don't know how she can move but she seems to like it better]

The 40 gallon was a bad choice in hindsight, purchased in reaction to other ball python information pages but this winter, with hubby's help, I'd like to make them a more appropriate free standing enclosure, somewhat like an "entertainment center" sort of thing but built to snake specifications.

For him, I bought new "furniture" [same as her generic PetCo/PetSmart stuff though...my selection is quite limited, here] cleaned out the tank and changed out the bedding, adding the new cypress bedding which I think looks grungy but they love.

All "her stuff" went into the 20L.
I bought yesterday but haven't put her new background up yet so she doesn't have her "visual security screen' going.
I searched everywhere, didn't find and can't remember where I got her turtle shell hide so he doesn't have one of his own.

He had no idea what a "hide" was as he's pretty much lived in a closed, barren drawer all of his life and now that the tank's cluttered up with all his "new junk", he's calmed down quite a bit.

Since he's figured out what his hide is for, he's been balled up in there during the day and came out to climb and roam a bit late last night much more calmly and curiously.
He seems to enjoy laying on the new resin "tree" he just got.
He doesn't move or act like he sees me when I go by so I think he's sleeping on it.

I bought two of them but Iggy's really not up to having that in her tank, yet.

[I also switched his light bulb from the red type to the black "moon" type]

For at least a week, I'm not doing anything with him except to monitor his breathing, general welfare, etc and change his water.

Iggy seems to have grown a little already because she's having a much harder time squeezing her whole self into her beloved paper towel tube.

They were out of rat pups so we got the larger mice instead.
Maybe next show....:-\

She's an eager eater [a little glutton, really] and I thawed at room temp/warmed up with hot water and she is fine with that.
She currently weighs 166 grams for a net gain of 32.

I will try the "hot head" hair drier trick for him since he's the 'difficult' one.
Sounds like a great idea...:)
It might even prompt Iggy's "aim" to improve as she just grabs *wherever* and starts to swallow.

I'm looking forward to him settling down so I can handle him some and find out what his personality really is.

Being a snake bought from a breeder who does this as a hobby/extra income, he's not been personally or regularly handled at all.
He was all "hugs and kisses" at the show after I got him out of the tiny display box he was in but now he's freaked out, I'm sure.

[I also think he was probably a bit chilled at the show...it wasn't very warm in the building and few people had any heat sources on their snakes]

He's very slippery and fast, trying to zip out of my hands and take off to who knows where.
[I had to change something in his house that required briefly removing him from it...that was intense]

I'm just going to let him chill out for a while.

Iggy immediately decided that she liked being a lap snake but I think he's possibly going to be less inclined.

I suppose that's normal considering he's gone from a year of being fed/watered/not handled to suddenly becoming a person's "pet".

Thanks for the website link...you're right....it's mind blowing and the snakes are gorgeous!
[drooooooool!]....:D

You seem to have a mis-conception about breeders and how they keep their animals. I started with a pet ball python in a 20 gallon long tank in 2005. After he went on an 8 month fast, I finally broke down and moved him into one of those tubs that your posts seem to abhor.

Within a week, once he was in an enclosure that was more close to what he would have chosen in the wild (tight and small) he began to eat with vigor.

Since they live in termite mounds and rodent burrows most of their lives, the decorations and extra stuff are to make the owner happy, not the snake. :)

I had a rocked out enclosure, but lugging that tank into the bathroom each month to thoroughly clean it got old fast, and besides, the snake was happier in a tub. And I was happy to get rid of the glass tank. It did get used for a brief while to breed mice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Last I checked, this man is a woman! :P Yup - just checked, I'm still a woman! LOL

OP - did you put the fire in the same enclosure as your other snake? Some of the decorations look identical, which is why I ask.

I don't expect that your fire would eat the same day that you bought it, and I expect it even less if it's constantly exploring. A content ball python is one that is NOT restless and that you will never see during day light hours (because it's hidden inside a hide). A stressed ball python is one that is constantly roaming and stretching to the top of the enclosure.

A forty gallon enclosure is HUGE - two of them must be a pain to completely break down and disinfect every month or so. I hope you have two, one for each snake. :)

---

No, they're not in the same enclosure.
Everything I read here said "NEVER! do that" so I didn't even consider it.
As far as either of them are concerned, the other one doesn't exist.

Iggy's in a 20L I keep on hand for emergencies.
[I have both pet rats and tropical fish and you never know when you'll need a "hospital"]

The decor is identical because all we have is PetCo and PetSmart so you can choose between all 5 of their non-specific hides/decoration selections to purchase.
[I wish I were kidding but sadly, I'm not]

It's pretty monotonous for them to have identical 'furniture' but that's the way it is, here in the boonies.

I guess they really don't care, though....:)

Now that he knows what a hide is for, he's much better.

He was calmly looking around/laying on his branch/rooting under the bedding last night and then went back to bed.
[this was repeated several times with decreasing lengths of time spent active]

If "invisible" equals calm, Iggy must be the happiest python on earth.

She sleeps, comes out for a stretch or a drink and goes back into her tube.

Her last feeding didn't even see her coming even halfway out of the tube to maneuver her supper.

[grab, swallow, back up, go to sleep again]

At night, her level of activity increases to simply uncurling and letting her tail hang out one end of the tube her head out of the other, looking around a little and acting very content.

Since I can't stay up all night and stare at her, she may be doing other things I haven't seen, such as burrowing because the new bedding was all messed up and furrowed as though she'd been plowing her way under it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You seem to have a mis-conception about breeders and how they keep their animals. I started with a pet ball python in a 20 gallon long tank in 2005. After he went on an 8 month fast, I finally broke down and moved him into one of those tubs that your posts seem to abhor.

Within a week, once he was in an enclosure that was more close to what he would have chosen in the wild (tight and small) he began to eat with vigor.

Since they live in termite mounds and rodent burrows most of their lives, the decorations and extra stuff are to make the owner happy, not the snake. :)

I had a rocked out enclosure, but lugging that tank into the bathroom each month to thoroughly clean it got old fast, and besides, the snake was happier in a tub. And I was happy to get rid of the glass tank. It did get used for a brief while to breed mice.

---

It's not an issue of abhorring the general concept but from what I've seen of the breeder since I got the snake, I suspect his snakes are handled as little as possible, save moving for breeding/cleaning/showing to buyers.

That makes it a little hard for those of us who buy them for pets, expecting to be able to at least hold them once in a while.
[my real life has always been dog rescue/rehab and I'm probably thinking in "dog think" too much...time to recalibrate to herp-speak]...;]

I'll probably end up with tubs like most others do eventually but you have to wonder why snakes don't die of sheer boredom.

Imagine 20-40 years of living in a Rubbermaid storage box, never seeing anything or going anywhere....I'd go completely insane inside of 20 days....LOL

[who am I kidding? as antsy and ever-in-motion as I am, it would be from Rubbermaid-to-rubber room, 2 days, tops]

As far as the tubs go, I can see a huge advantage in the never-ending battle for Truth, Justice and The Perfect Heat/Humidity.....:P

Thanks to whomever posted the tinfoiled-lid tip, I can stop running out to check both variables every 20 minutes.

[truth be told, I've already started eying some really nice lock-top containers at Wally World....just in case]...LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

I'll probably end up with tubs like most others do eventually but you have to wonder why snakes don't die of sheer boredom.

Imagine 20-40 years of living in a Rubbermaid storage box, never seeing anything or going anywhere....I'd go completely insane inside of 20 days....LOL

---

Snake perception seems to be vastly different than human perception.

To us a dark closed in place would be boring and/or frightening. Snakes seek these very same conditions because it makes them feel safe and secure.

We would probably go nuts if we had a one-item menu year after year. Most of our ball pythons demand it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Redneck_Crow

Snake perception seems to be vastly different than human perception.

To us a dark closed in place would be boring and/or frightening. Snakes seek these very same conditions because it makes them feel safe and secure.

We would probably go nuts if we had a one-item menu year after year. Most of our ball pythons demand it.

---

Believe me, after watching Iggy eat her first meal here, I have never been happier to not be a snake!

Frankly, I was worried to death the whole time that somehow, the fuzzy would 'get stuck' or strangle her and I had no idea how to help her, if it did.

Not even 2 weeks later, the local snake shop guy tossed her a fresh killed adult mouse probably 5 times bigger and she dispatched that with great skill....while she was curled up in a snap-top food storage box on the checkout counter of a busy store in broad daylight.

I underestimated her vastly.


I still can't believe how fast supper slides all the way back to her stomach.

Just...wow.

[but I still wouldn't want to have to get my nourishment like *that*]....:O

I just went out to my art studio and measured a lovely pine armoire that is currently housing my airbrush equipment/supplies and various papers and other art substrates.

Wouldn't you know....the top half is the perfect size to retrofit into a really nice 'snake hutch'.

The doors are on double-action hinges for easy access and even closed, would offer plenty of air circulation plus it would eliminate a lot of heat/humidity regulation issues.

Day/night can easily be mimicked by simply opening or closing said doors.

The smaller bottom section is perfect for housing all their supplies.

It would be easy to clean since it's polyurethane sealed clear pine that I *might* add a sheet of vinyl flooring over to make it even more sealed.

A good wipe down or spray with dilute disinfectant overall would do it for sanitizing.

Now I have to figure out how to put sliding glass doors and a partition *or* hinged 'flap' windows that latch at the top in it.

It would be a like a cozy horizontal "burrow" but I could still see them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Your girl is indeed thin, and you should step her up to at least rat pups ASAP. You new boy will need at least a week to relax and settle in before trying to feed him. Make sure you read and re-read the caresheets, because a 40 gallon tank is huge for one of those little guys, and you are going to need to be on your toes to make it an ideal home. By the way, even from your pictures I can tell your boy is almost certainly a fire. Fire's are a subtle morph, but he'll get more beautiful as he grows. If you want your mind blown, visit http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs and have a box of tissue's ready for the drool.

Gale

---

This is a picture of Iggy today at 166 grams.
For the lack of a more technical description, she just looks "rounder" to me and her tail end seems thicker.

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/ig1.jpg

And her new "spooky background"...pardon the flash glare.
[I wish they'd had that in the 18" tall size....I really like it much better than the "petrified wood" theme I used on the other tank]

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/ig3.jpg

And Himself last night.

http://file.walagata.com/w/the-salamander/newsnake4.jpg

He must've been asleep up there because neither my presence or the flash caused him to react at all.

He seems to like the fake tree.

He wraps his back half tightly around the one branch, rests his head on the other and just lays there.

As I said, I suspect he's sleeping when he does that.

Love Iggy's colors, beautiful! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AZ_Equine

Love Iggy's colors, beautiful! :)

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Thanks!

[doesn't she look just like tasty, golden brown, yummy caramels?]

Hmm...maybe I should go eat something....LOL