Identity crisis!

[MidSouthMorphs]

Agreed, I try to convert all of mine over to F/T. But if they won't take then i feed live. What poeple fail to realize is that it is life, you have the prey and the predator. I'd hate for those types to go herping and see it in the wild.

[Riv]

We have similar stories haha. I didnt find out I had a ball princess until I learned how to pop myself XDD. She also had a mess of feeding issues because they dont know how to feed properly at the pet store I got her from. She's getting to a good weigh slowly, but it took a long time to even get as good as we are. trust me, soon it will feel off when you accidentally call her a him XDD I feel bad whenever I do that these days haha.

[Salamander Rising]

Agreed, I try to convert all of mine over to F/T. But if they won't take then i feed live. What poeple fail to realize is that it is life, you have the prey and the predator. I'd hate for those types to go herping and see it in the wild.

The problem is that I can't deal with live feeding.

I've had pet rats and mice [and still have rats] and simply cannot do it.

I went to Repticon today and brought back a male Fire.

Supposedly he was being switched over to frozen and for whatever reason, has not been fed for 2 weeks due to the breeder's show schedule.

He doesn't want the mouse I gave him even after I plopped it in his house and left him be, as per the guy's instructions.

[hopefully it's all the stress and confusion of the show, the people and going from living in Tupperware for a year to a 40 gallon breeder tank which he has not stopped exploring and gawping at since we got home]

Wish me luck because if he won't eat frozen, he's got to go back.

I grew up raising and slaughtering our own meat.
It's not an issue of being 'girly' or naive.
I just got done a round of rabies shots last week after getting in between [and later calmly capping] the 3 rabid coons who were after my dogs.

I don't think life is a Disney movie.

I live in the mountains and see nature red in tooth and claw all the time.

A critter in the wild has a chance to escape the predator...a mouse tossed into a cage with a snake doesn't.
Nature doesn't work that way.
Prey and predator perform a gruesome pas de deux that one or the other wins only because it was bigger, quicker or smarter....not because the prey was hopelessly trapped in a box.

I'm sorry but I can't do that.

I won't do that.

Ironically, the guy is switching to frozen because his wife feels the same way I do.

[Salamander Rising]

We have similar stories haha. I didnt find out I had a ball princess until I learned how to pop myself XDD. She also had a mess of feeding issues because they dont know how to feed properly at the pet store I got her from. She's getting to a good weigh slowly, but it took a long time to even get as good as we are. trust me, soon it will feel off when you accidentally call her a him XDD I feel bad whenever I do that these days haha.

A different seller double verified the new snake's sex for me beyond all shadow of a doubt.

He "popped" him, handed him back to me and exclaimed that the snake was ready to breed "right now!".

It was then that I noticed a tiny splat of something wet, off-white and icky on my hand.

Yes.
It was.

Horrid hubby said "See! I told you he really likes you!".

Sometimes I hate men.

[Salamander Rising]

Both store's employees sound like typical pet store employees that really don't know as much as they'd like you to believe that they know.

I feed all of mine live, even hatchlings. Live rats, not stunned or knocked out. I've never had one injured - and I even feed off retired breeder rats to my largest breeder females.

I was fed the line "females are more valuable to breeders than males, so there are not females in the pet trade" line by a small mom/pop store near me, yet he has females (he doesn't know how to sex, and for the longest would not allow me to sex them, because I'd "sterilize" them by sexing them - funny how I haven't sterilized any of my breeders! LOL).

Most breeders aren't keeping female normals, because they're replacing them with morph females. Most of us will wholesale our normals to pet stores, males and females.

That is extremely light if her age is correct, though I'm not sure how Petco knows what the age is, considering their supply are captive hatched animals imported from Africa, and not supplied by local breeders. They cost Petco less than $10 a head.

Feed what you're comfortable feeding, but don't be scared off by the horror stories of feeding live. Most of the pictures you've seen are a result of an irresponsible keeper putting live prey in with their snakes for days, with no food or water for the rodent, so they eat the only thing available to them - the snake, if the snake has refused to eat them.

I've fed off over 15K live prey - mice, rats - none of mine have been maimed or killed by their food. If I felt that my collection was in jeopardy by feeding live, I would not feed live, as I have some nice critters in my collection, and I wouldn't put them at risk, if I believed it to be true. My personal experience demonstrates otherwise.

My hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies, and moved up rather quickly to rat pups, then small rats.

Congrats on your ball python - we need pictures though!

A local private herp store owner guesstimated her age.
I really have no idea how old she is other than his guess.
She's about 18-21 inches long, if that means anything.

This is Iggy









And this is her yet-to-be-named new buddy.



(who thinks he can stand up)





Personally I think they look very similar but every dealer I talked to said the new snake is a "Fire".

What "difference" am I missing, here?

He's more 'golden' than she is and that's all I see.

[AK907]

He will not sell me rats yet...says he will tell me when she's ready and expressed an opinion that 'scaring' her with a rat might make her a classic non-eater python.

[which I personally can't fathom happening, given her current gluttonous ways but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for her sake]

Oh what a load of crap! None of our ball pythons have ever seen a mouse in our care. You'd be amazed what they can swallow, although they should still be given appropriate sized meal, which general rule of thumb is as big around as the fattest part of their body or 10-15% of the snake's body weight. I've got some shy eaters that prefer smaller meals or stunned meals, but none that have ever been "scared" into a "classic non-eater ball python" because I offered an appropriately sized meal. Don't listen to anything those guys say. If you need answers, come here. Most of us have been keeping and breeding balls and other reptiles for many years and we are always here to help. I don't think there is anyone here who will say we don't know what we are talking about, although we all have our own varying techniques.

I love how he said that frozen rats go bad in a very short time. Although we only use f/t for younger corns, I've had feeders in the freezer for months at a time with no ill effects. Like you said, frozen meat is frozen meat. Also about them coming from a lab, get real. We supply a couple local businesses with rats, mice and asf and I would hardly consider our bathroom a lab. An experiment, for sure, but in no way is it a lab.

Both store's employees sound like typical pet store employees that really don't know as much as they'd like you to believe that they know.

I feed all of mine live, even hatchlings. Live rats, not stunned or knocked out. I've never had one injured - and I even feed off retired breeder rats to my largest breeder females.

I was fed the line "females are more valuable to breeders than males, so there are not females in the pet trade" line by a small mom/pop store near me, yet he has females (he doesn't know how to sex, and for the longest would not allow me to sex them, because I'd "sterilize" them by sexing them - funny how I haven't sterilized any of my breeders! LOL).

Most breeders aren't keeping female normals, because they're replacing them with morph females. Most of us will wholesale our normals to pet stores, males and females.

That is extremely light if her age is correct, though I'm not sure how Petco knows what the age is, considering their supply are captive hatched animals imported from Africa, and not supplied by local breeders. They cost Petco less than $10 a head.

Feed what you're comfortable feeding, but don't be scared off by the horror stories of feeding live. Most of the pictures you've seen are a result of an irresponsible keeper putting live prey in with their snakes for days, with no food or water for the rodent, so they eat the only thing available to them - the snake, if the snake has refused to eat them.

I've fed off over 15K live prey - mice, rats - none of mine have been maimed or killed by their food. If I felt that my collection was in jeopardy by feeding live, I would not feed live, as I have some nice critters in my collection, and I wouldn't put them at risk, if I believed it to be true. My personal experience demonstrates otherwise.

My hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies, and moved up rather quickly to rat pups, then small rats.

Congrats on your ball python - we need pictures though!

Listen to this man! He knows his stuff. Like him, all of our hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies and we have NEVER had a problem with them being scared into a non-feeder. Also as he said, feeding live isn't an issue if you are responsible. Feeding f/t is entirely up to you, though. If you can't stomach it and your ball is willing to accept f/t, all power to ya.

[Salamander Rising]

Oh what a load of crap! None of our ball pythons have ever seen a mouse in our care. You'd be amazed what they can swallow, although they should still be given appropriate sized meal, which general rule of thumb is as big around as the fattest part of their body or 10-15% of the snake's body weight. I've got some shy eaters that prefer smaller meals or stunned meals, but none that have ever been "scared" into a "classic non-eater ball python" because I offered an appropriately sized meal. Don't listen to anything those guys say. If you need answers, come here. Most of us have been keeping and breeding balls and other reptiles for many years and we are always here to help. I don't think there is anyone here who will say we don't know what we are talking about, although we all have our own varying techniques.

I love how he said that frozen rats go bad in a very short time. Although we only use f/t for younger corns, I've had feeders in the freezer for months at a time with no ill effects. Like you said, frozen meat is frozen meat. Also about them coming from a lab, get real. We supply a couple local businesses with rats, mice and asf and I would hardly consider our bathroom a lab. An experiment, for sure, but in no way is it a lab.



Listen to this man! He knows his stuff. Like him, all of our hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies and we have NEVER had a problem with them being scared into a non-feeder. Also as he said, feeding live isn't an issue if you are responsible. Feeding f/t is entirely up to you, though. If you can't stomach it and your ball is willing to accept f/t, all power to ya.

You have no idea how hard I was biting my lips the whole time I was there.
I only went to get the frozen dead things his site advertised.

I'd already voraciously read everything here and his BS was driving me insane.

Hubby was defending the guy because he had a reptile store, knew scary stories and had to know what he was talking about to be in the business.

As if.

I was trying to avoid a 2 hours drive for snake food *today* by going there *yesterday*.
We politely paid for 3 dead mice and when we got back to the truck, I quietly said "Looks like we're going to Baltimore, after all" and we did.

Oh well.

At least I got a new snake that really is a boy.


LOL


[sick humor alert: if you want to unconvince your mate that "dead meat goes bad in 3 weeks", tell them you're going home and feed all the frozen steaks they've been hoarding for *months* to your Dobermann...totally changes their mind like you wouldn't believe]

And yeah....I went there....

[angllady2]

I can understand your reluctance to feed live. I went through the exact same thing. My daughter raises pet rats that I play with daily for Pete's sake!!

However, over time, faced with feeding refusals and wasted frozen rodents that cost me money and stress and what not, I got over it.

By all means, search out a supplier of frozen rats, buy online if you must, just be prepared for outrageous shipping prices, and do what makes you comfortable right now.

I will give a bit of advice on F/T. If that rodent isn't HOT most snakes won't touch it. What I do is thaw the rodent at room temp for a few hours, submerge it in a thin stream of running hot tap water for 30 minutes, towel dry the rodent then dry it with a hair dryer. Once it's nice and dry and toasty warm, grip it with feeding tongs, heat JUST the head for about 30 seconds, then offer it.

Make sure you don't shove the rodent in the snakes face, I offer it on the opposite side of the tub from the snake. If you did things right, that rodent will be putting off a massive heat signature, which is how snakes hunt. And BAM! No more rodent.

Your girl is indeed thin, and you should step her up to at least rat pups ASAP. You new boy will need at least a week to relax and settle in before trying to feed him. Make sure you read and re-read the caresheets, because a 40 gallon tank is huge for one of those little guys, and you are going to need to be on your toes to make it an ideal home. By the way, even from your pictures I can tell your boy is almost certainly a fire. Fire's are a subtle morph, but he'll get more beautiful as he grows. If you want your mind blown, visit http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs and have a box of tissue's ready for the drool.

Gale

[rabernet]

Listen to this man! He knows his stuff. Like him, all of our hatchlings are started on rat fuzzies and we have NEVER had a problem with them being scared into a non-feeder. Also as he said, feeding live isn't an issue if you are responsible. Feeding f/t is entirely up to you, though. If you can't stomach it and your ball is willing to accept f/t, all power to ya.

Last I checked, this man is a woman! Yup - just checked, I'm still a woman! LOL

OP - did you put the fire in the same enclosure as your other snake? Some of the decorations look identical, which is why I ask.

I don't expect that your fire would eat the same day that you bought it, and I expect it even less if it's constantly exploring. A content ball python is one that is NOT restless and that you will never see during day light hours (because it's hidden inside a hide). A stressed ball python is one that is constantly roaming and stretching to the top of the enclosure.

A forty gallon enclosure is HUGE - two of them must be a pain to completely break down and disinfect every month or so. I hope you have two, one for each snake.

[rabernet]

The problem is that I can't deal with live feeding.

I've had pet rats and mice [and still have rats] and simply cannot do it.

I went to Repticon today and brought back a male Fire.

Supposedly he was being switched over to frozen and for whatever reason, has not been fed for 2 weeks due to the breeder's show schedule.

He doesn't want the mouse I gave him even after I plopped it in his house and left him be, as per the guy's instructions.

[hopefully it's all the stress and confusion of the show, the people and going from living in Tupperware for a year to a 40 gallon breeder tank which he has not stopped exploring and gawping at since we got home]

Wish me luck because if he won't eat frozen, he's got to go back.

I grew up raising and slaughtering our own meat.
It's not an issue of being 'girly' or naive.
I just got done a round of rabies shots last week after getting in between [and later calmly capping] the 3 rabid coons who were after my dogs.

I don't think life is a Disney movie.

I live in the mountains and see nature red in tooth and claw all the time.

A critter in the wild has a chance to escape the predator...a mouse tossed into a cage with a snake doesn't.
Nature doesn't work that way.
Prey and predator perform a gruesome pas de deux that one or the other wins only because it was bigger, quicker or smarter....not because the prey was hopelessly trapped in a box.

I'm sorry but I can't do that.

I won't do that.

Ironically, the guy is switching to frozen because his wife feels the same way I do.

Honestly? You're going to have to get over your aversion to feeding live, because I can pretty much guarantee that there's going to come a day that you may have to feed live.

What if a year from now both of your snakes go off feed, refuse to eat f/t and begin to lose weight? Are you going to allow them to lose significant amounts before you offer them live? Or will you just re-home them?

Accepting responsibility for the care of these critters also means that you accept that there are going to be some things you have to do, that you have an aversion to.

I am an animal lover. I love my rats, and I don't enjoy feeding day at all. But I knew what I was getting into when I purchased my first ball python.

Why do you care if a mouse or rat has a chance to escape or not? The f/t cousins didn't get a chance to escape being gassed, or having their heads crashed against a hard surface either. What difference does it make if human killed it or your snake kills it? Maybe I'm not understanding the argument.

Let me be clear - I'm not trying to talk you INTO feeding live, as I advocate people feeding what works for them. But I also advocate being OPEN to feeding live if it's the only thing your snake will eat.