Possible RI/Stress?? Need input

I picked up two female adult balls today from a breeder. Saw both in person and each looked fine other than one having a stuck eyecap from a recent shed. After about an hour and a half ride back to my place I noticed that when we (me and my bf) took them out (we had them in individual snake bags for the ride) each had issues that concerned me.

One (the stuck eye cap) had a very slight wheeze/whistle sound, for the time holding her we only heard it three times. Her mouth was clear of any bubbles or cheesy substance, and she has healthy scales/skin and clear eyes (besides the eye cap).

The second is what is worrying me the most: she has a very apparent wheeze/whistle as well as a rumbling that I could physically feel within her body as she breathed. It sounded/felt almost like when you have phlem in your throat and you're trying to clear it by coughing it up in your throat - it was very similar to that sound and feel. Opened her mouth and she had lots of bubbles in the back of her throat/near her windpipe but it wasn't so bad that the bubbles were gurgling out of the sides of her mouth. No cheesey substance, clear eyes, scales and belly.

So here's where I'm confused: these all sound like the start of an RI yet when we saw them in person there was NO signs of any of this what so ever. RIs don't happen in a one and a half hour transit of course. So what's going on?

Talked to the breeder and he didn't see or feel any of these signs before when he had them for sale or before we traveled down to pick them up earlier that day. He checked the rest of the snakes in his racks and none are having these issues. The rumbling/wheezing/bubbles seems to have happened in an hour but how is that possible?

I have since upped their temps and they are in quarantine. Show I raise or lower their humidity? (Both are at 61 degrees humidity currently).

Could these signs have been stress related from the move? Can someone shed some light on this for me?

Thanks

Sounds like the first one might have shed stuck on its nose and it sounds like wheezing when it breaths.

from what ive heard on here, anytime theres a risk for an RI, you raise temps and lower the humidity, try going down to 45-50%? and se what happens, but im not sure why it would come on so fast, im not thatexperienced, but im sure someone that is will be in here soon. and also, how much do you trust the breeder? they may have just ben trying to get rid of them real quick and was lucky enough to have it not show symtoms until you left, i hope thats not what hapened but it is possible

The first one seems to be fine if you are not seeing any excess mucus in the mouth or bubbles.

Sometimes when you open up a snake's mouth, small saliva bubbles will be located at the throat area. If the saliva seems stringy and the snake has larger bubbles around the mouth and tracea I would set up a vet appointment.

The wheezing could just be from the stress on the snakes moving into a different environment from what they're used to. I would keep a close eye on the second Ball and raise up the temps a couple degrees. If you can try, see if there's any bubbles within the tracea when the snake opens it to breathe or in/around the Jacobson's organ and nasal cavities at the top of the mouth.

Also if you have a good camera pics of the mouth would be helpful.

If you can feel rumbling when it breathes it most likely has an RI and the fluid is causing it. Hold it up to ur ear and wait for it to breath. If u hear anything then it is an RI. Up the humidity to around 80 and that will help break up anything inside. If u start seeing mucous and smears on the wall call a vet and make an appointment

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Originally Posted by mpkeelee

If you can feel rumbling when it breathes it most likely has an RI and the fluid is causing it. Hold it up to ur ear and wait for it to breath. If u hear anything then it is an RI. Up the humidity to around 80 and that will help break up anything inside. If u start seeing mucous and smears on the wall call a vet and make an appointment

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you UP the humidity? i thought you were supposed to lower it

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Originally Posted by Rusky

Sounds like the first one might have shed stuck on its nose and it sounds like wheezing when it breaths.

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I didn't think about something stuck in there - and she did have a tiny little piece of stuck shed on her nose along with the eye cap. Will the stuck shed that's causing the whistle just be right there on top of the nose/scales like any stuck shed?

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Originally Posted by cmack91

from what ive heard on here, anytime theres a risk for an RI, you raise temps and lower the humidity, try going down to 45-50%? and se what happens, but im not sure why it would come on so fast, im not thatexperienced, but im sure someone that is will be in here soon. and also, how much do you trust the breeder? they may have just ben trying to get rid of them real quick and was lucky enough to have it not show symtoms until you left, i hope thats not what hapened but it is possible

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It's my first time working with this breeder but honestly I don't get the "feeling" that he was trying to drop these off on someone. He has many good guys on Fauna and really seems like he takes care of his animals and cares about them at that. On top of that he has been more than helpful and cooperative through these events, and really wants to make it right with me. It also puzzles me why these affect would be noticeable so soon!

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

The first one seems to be fine if you are not seeing any excess mucus in the mouth or bubbles.

Sometimes when you open up a snake's mouth, small saliva bubbles will be located at the throat area. If the saliva seems stringy and the snake has larger bubbles around the mouth and tracea I would set up a vet appointment.

The wheezing could just be from the stress on the snakes moving into a different environment from what they're used to. I would keep a close eye on the second Ball and raise up the temps a couple degrees. If you can try, see if there's any bubbles within the tracea when the snake opens it to breathe or in/around the Jacobson's organ and nasal cavities at the top of the mouth.

Also if you have a good camera pics of the mouth would be helpful.

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The second one had lots of bubble in the back of the throat as well around/in the windpipe when she relaxed and breathed. I did not see anything stringy - just bubbles. I will be checking them tomorrow and will look at the top of her mouth - I didn't look there when we checked. I will try to get pics of both their mouths as well.

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Originally Posted by mpkeelee

If you can feel rumbling when it breathes it most likely has an RI and the fluid is causing it. Hold it up to ur ear and wait for it to breath. If u hear anything then it is an RI. Up the humidity to around 80 and that will help break up anything inside. If u start seeing mucous and smears on the wall call a vet and make an appointment

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Why would I feel/heard the rumbling when she got home but not at his house? Could the transit have exaggerated the RI into being noticeable if she indeed had one while in the breeder's care and it was so subtle he didn't notice? I have upped the hot side on each of their tubs, and will try to up the ambient temps as well (should 83-85 be a good ambient?). Humidity is at 64 now, so I'll try to raise that too. They are both on paper towels with just a water bowl - I will look out for the smearing of mucus. I didn't see any smearing in their old tubs also.

Thank you for your help all! If I could, I'd give everyone a hug

I'll add that the bubbles in the second one's throat looked almost like a froth of bubbles, not a couple huge ones. Until I can get pics it looked closest to this: http://us.cdn4.123rf.com/168nwm/ragn...background.jpg but NOT like this: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/99/29...bd211ce091.jpg

Also I know sometimes snakes will go off feed with RIs, but these two have been good feeders and have been eating consistently for the breeder. Each are ~ 2200 gram proven breeders.

When dealing with r.i. raise the heat to 92 get on paper and loose the humidity. Also because snakes cant battle infections very well a visit to the vet for injectibale baytril is in order. Hit em with .007 once a day for 14 days middle third of the body either side of the spine in the muscle and between the scales.

So ur saying lower humidity too? Two vets have told me to raise it. I'm starting to doubt my supposed knowledgeable reptile vet

The vet i use is one of if not the best in the country and hes told me lower humidity and raise temps. Vet stahl is money

Alrighty then. I apologize to the OP and to all the others that I have told to raise humidity. Guess I need to look for a better vet cuz mine isn't as good as they r said to be

Wait a sec...

Why would you lower humidity when any animal has a RI? Dry air increases the growth rate of bacteria, and viruses? Hence why when people are sick we use a humidifier. What is the benefit of lowering humidity again?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

The vet i use is one of if not the best in the country and hes told me lower humidity and raise temps. Vet stahl is money

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Then you know that Dr Scott Stahl doesn't agree with deciding the course of medication without a swab first, because some strains are resistant to Baytril, and and Baytril shouldn't be the default drug recommended all the time.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk

I agree with raising humidity for an RI. by raising temps and humidity you are creating a better environment for the snake. Can you imagine having a stuffy nose and being in a dry hot room? You need the humidity to help break up the mucus.

sent from my EVO

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

I didn't think about something stuck in there - and she did have a tiny little piece of stuck shed on her nose along with the eye cap. Will the stuck shed that's causing the whistle just be right there on top of the nose/scales like any stuck shed?

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It would just be a piece around the nose holes. This will either cause them to sound like they're hissing because there is something blocking their nose hole or it could sound like wheezing.

If you suspect a nose shed or if the eye cap isn't coming off I would put the snake in a damp pillow case for 30 minutes. While trying to get out it will rub its face against the case and rub the shed off.

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Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

Wait a sec...

Why would you lower humidity when any animal has a RI? Dry air increases the growth rate of bacteria, and viruses? Hence why when people are sick we use a humidifier. What is the benefit of lowering humidity again?

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Isn't bacteria the other way around? Bacteria colonies need moisture to reproduce I always thought, so yes raising humidity will help break up the mucus but it would also help the bacteria colonies reproduce... just from what I remember in high school biology anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rusky

It would just be a piece around the nose holes. This will either cause them to sound like they're hissing because there is something blocking their nose hole or it could sound like wheezing.

If you suspect a nose shed or if the eye cap isn't coming off I would put the snake in a damp pillow case for 30 minutes. While trying to get out it will rub its face against the case and rub the shed off.

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We're monitoring them closely right now before we do anything. Tonight we'll get pictures of each and you all can see.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Then you know that Dr Scott Stahl doesn't agree with deciding the course of medication without a swab first, because some strains are resistant to Baytril, and and Baytril shouldn't be the default drug recommended all the time.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk

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Yes i know he likes to culture and swab first. Baytril is a go to in my arsenal when i get a resp issue and it has worked like a charm over the years for me. As far as humidity goes. Humidity affects humans differently then snakes. Humidity for humans help in breaking up flem to be able to cough it up but it doesnt male the infection go away. A snake cant hack up the phlegm like we can. Higher heat and lower humidity along with medicatio. Will clear up a resp infection faster. You have to jump on it as soon as you notice an issue cause if it goes too far it can reach the point of no return pretty quickly.

As promised, here are the pics taken a couple hours ago (DUW).

Eyecap one (nose shed is gone and we didn't hear any whistle):

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...es/NOF0102.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...es/NOF0103.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...kes/NOF010.jpg

Here is the other that had me (more) concerned, though even though she still has the bubbles/mucus looking stuff we didn't hear any whistles, wheezes, or feel/hear that rumbling within her body when we had her out:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...es/NOF0082.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...es/NOF0083.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...kes/NOF008.jpg

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Yes i know he likes to culture and swab first. Baytril is a go to in my arsenal when i get a resp issue and it has worked like a charm over the years for me. As far as humidity goes. Humidity affects humans differently then snakes. Humidity for humans help in breaking up flem to be able to cough it up but it doesnt male the infection go away. A snake cant hack up the phlegm like we can. Higher heat and lower humidity along with medicatio. Will clear up a resp infection faster. You have to jump on it as soon as you notice an issue cause if it goes too far it can reach the point of no return pretty quickly.

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I just found it ironic that you were quoting him in regards to humidity level, yet you weren't completely following what he recommends. He also recommends 30 days of treatment, not 14 as you advised. But he frowns upon having Baytril as the default go to treatment protocol and not testing first to decide the best course of treatment.

I suspect that he also probably frowns upon people without a veterinary degree prescribing a treatment on an online forum too. :P

No argument from me that he's the best there is, in the US, if not the world.

You can find it ironic all ya want. Thats what oppinions are for. I was simply stating what his take on humidity and resp was. The baytril comment was my oppinion based on my experience. I agree there are strains imune to baytril but i personally have never had a resp issue that wasnt fixed by baytril in 15 years. Now i also jump on it as soon as i notice it and never let it go unattended but thats just me. But keep in mind this is an online forum and like all online forums its a place where people share their experiences. Advice and oppinions ate just that. Take it or leave it but im speaking on my years of experience not on anything else. But like with any forum it seems those with oppiinions will have people that dont agree. Thats the great thing about a debate.

Giving a *bump* to see if anyone else has input. Pics on page 2

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Originally Posted by snake lab

You can find it ironic all ya want. Thats what oppinions are for. I was simply stating what his take on humidity and resp was. The baytril comment was my oppinion based on my experience. I agree there are strains imune to baytril but i personally have never had a resp issue that wasnt fixed by baytril in 15 years. Now i also jump on it as soon as i notice it and never let it go unattended but thats just me. But keep in mind this is an online forum and like all online forums its a place where people share their experiences. Advice and oppinions ate just that. Take it or leave it but im speaking on my years of experience not on anything else. But like with any forum it seems those with oppiinions will have people that dont agree. Thats the great thing about a debate.

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It's kind of hard to vett your claim of 15 years of experience, since you haven't shared your name and have always been pretty vague about it.

I'm not saying that you don't have the experience that you say that you have, BUT - there's no way to validate it, and anyone could create a persona online and make claims that can never be validated.

That's why when people read these forums, they need to realize that they really need to make sure they do research of their own, and not just take advice being handed out by an unknown persona, especially when it comes to recommendations for medicating your animals. You gave specific doses and time line for treatment that differs from what Dr. Stahl, who you recognize as one of the premier reptile vets in the country, would recommend to his clients.

Op the look of the bubbles isn't really bad, it might just be a salivey snake (that isn't a word is it?) or it might not. Can you feel the bubbles? RI is well phlegm slimy and viscous saliva is well spit watery and not viscous. Hard to tell from the photos. It certainly isn't definitive if you are in unsure I'd go to the vet anyway. I notice there is something odd with the rostal scale the front upper jaw one where the tongue comes out. It look odd to me.

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Originally Posted by Animals As Leaders

Wait a sec...

Why would you lower humidity when any animal has a RI? Dry air increases the growth rate of bacteria, and viruses? Hence why when people are sick we use a humidifier. What is the benefit of lowering humidity again?

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No this is mostly incorrect most bacteria do not do well in dry conditions same for fungi. They generally speaking need warm moist conditions do thrive. Lungs are a great medium for them BTW.

Virus are odd they are all over the place dry or humid they can survive well in. For the most part herp heath issues are around bacteria and fungi, virus cannot be treated with drugs so they represent some of the scariest concerns. (IBD is a retrovirus for example)

whats .007?