Nearing the end of guaranteed genetics. What will it mean to you?

There are already a few out there... and a lot more will be made this season. I am talking about multi morph combos.

Take a male with 4 morphs and pair him to a female with 2 morphs. End result? Each kid will be 1 of up to 32 possible morph combinations. Easy enough right?

Take a stud male with 5 morphs and pair him to a female with 2 morphs. End result? Each kid will be 1 of up to 64 possible morph combinations. Water is starting to get a little muddy.

Take a stud male with 5 morphs and pair him to a female with 3 morphs. End result? Each kid will be 1 of up to 128 possible morph combinations! Eeny meeny miny moe...

Take a stud male with 5 morphs and pair him to a female with 4 morphs. End result? Each kid will be 1 of up to 256 possible morph combinations!! Uh, time to get creative....

Finally, take a stud male with 5 morphs and pair him to a superstar female with 5 morphs. End result? Each kid will be 1 of up to 512 possible morph combinations!!! Forgetaboutit.

Safe to say that in a couple years when you buy a high dollar hatchling snake, you aren't going to know what morphs are in its blood. You certainly won't have a guarantee. Best you can get will be a guarantee of possibilities. Sure you could guess at what the ingredients are based on the known trates of the parents.... But that is just it... It will be nothing more then a guess. And the more complicated the parents get, the more clueless you will be with the kids.

Right now people mostly buy expensive snakes because they find one they particularly like, and they want to make another one. Or maybe they want to reproduce it doing something slightly different. When buying a snake with 10 morphs you pretty much have to accept up front that you will likely never make a snake that looks anything like the origional you are about to spend big money on.

What effect will this have on pricing? I believe it will be the end of the super high dollar snakes. Sure it is a way off, but it is coming.

Your thoughts?

Mikey

......My head hurts

I have felt this way since I got into balls. Watching some of the big breeder videos on yt, and hearing them say...well not really sure what this is....makes me worry. Sure sometimes they know what it is and don't want to say, but I really do feel they don't 100% know.

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I was just thinking about this the other day. I was watching a video from NERD and just looking at all the amazing crosses I was left thinking there is no way he knows whats in that for sure. Like you said sure you can take an educated guess but people have enough trouble identifying morphs with 3 genes in them so 5+ is going to be a crap shoot. I personally think its going to increase the price of good looking creations on a case by case basis. If you create a beautiful Mojave x spider x yellowbelly x pin blah blah blah then if someone wants it there is no way to to get that snake other than to buy it from you.

yeah it scary to think at time you goingo t have to give away the base stuff like butters/lessers and othe base guys and I am still struggling to produce the basics, it almost enought to make me want ot get out casue I never be able to sell,trade my base snakes out and i going to get overrun with the normals and othe snakes in rescues. ( almost there due to the size of my last rescue lot.)

I almost wish that there was a longer time between breeding for bps just to keep the market from being flooded.

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Originally Posted by llovelace

......My head hurts

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x2

...and my calculator broke trying to figure it all out...

Personally, being relatively new to the bp world, I find it hard to differentiate between a lot of the multi gene morphs, but I know an albino when I see one ;). I think the new people coming into the bp world will always start with the easier visual morphs so I don't think those will ever go out of style. As for combo breeding, honestly, we may get to a point where these snakes' genetics get so convoluted that we have to back up and go back to square one.

Personally, I find the whole concept pretty exciting. Yes...I can see where it would make people nervous...but for me, it'd be an adventure in breeding, with each egg being its own little treasure chest of surprises.

I truly believe there will always be a strong market for many of the basic or simple combos like bees or POGs or what-have-you. These are gorgeous snakes in their own rights, and careful selective breeding of the best of the best help them to continue to grow in both beauty and popularity.

Sure, there will always be breeders with huge collections and enough stock to create some crazy-big combos...and some of those crazy-big combos will make it out into the mainstream market eventually. In time, we'll see smaller hobbyists being able to embark on the same sort of treasure hunt as they explore all these different possible combos. But I truly believe that MOST people who keep ball pythons will continue to be enamored with and strive to produce high quality base and simple-combo morphs.

IMO, the best way it can go is the route were people start breeding for the best examples both visually and physically. A good number of the 4 plus gene animals look very similar. No, not all but a lot. And why would you want a "powerhouse" breeder for $25k that is six different base morphs. Unless it's three different supers.

There are a lot that I like out there but most of my favorites stop at 2 or 3 gene.
Yeah it would be great to have one 5+ gene male and a whole bunch of single gene females but you still dont know how the odds will turn.
If I get to that point I may want one or two but for the time being I am just happy having quality examples of single and doubles.:gj:

I agree that it is going to drastically change the market and i think we will be seeing the trend sooner then later. There are some heavy hitting morphs that are doing this vary thing now. The question is when are they going to be in market. I also agree it will affect the high pricing market but i also think once it happens it will bring down the high dollar market and create a more stable market on you 2 and 3 gene animals. Once we start seeing spiders and bees and lessers etc in the big box pet stores is when we will see this thing coming full circle

I think you have a point OP and I think as unfortunate as it is balls will eventually go the way of corns. There really is no "high end" corn anymore and I think balls will end in that same fate. I think it will take a very long time for that to happen, probably 25 years or more to flood the hobby because the hobby isnt completely flooded with the base morphs yet obviously or you wouldn't be able to sell those and once it is flooded with the bases it then has to flood with 2 gene stuff then 3 gene and so on. So as I said I think it's a very long time off. Nonetheless, I think it is the inevitable future of the ball python.

Now on the bright side of this is the fact that the flooding of the market is what has allowed and will continue to allow us small time breeders and hobbyists to own some truly beautiful animals. I'm sure ten years ago when piebalds were selling for 15k+ they were out of reach for most of us here. Now, thanks to the flooding they are a very ownable animal and many who could never dream of the investment then can enjoy the beauty of a pied in their collection without the second mortgages to purchase it. So while the end may be somewhat bleak it sure will be a fun ride getting there :)

This isn't new water, it happens in cornsnakes all the time. And has already been happening for years in BP's, especially with BEL.

It'll be OK. You just sell them as honestly as possible, or keep them back to prove out what they are.

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Originally Posted by mechnut450

yeah it scary to think at time you goingo t have to give away the base stuff like butters/lessers and othe base guys and I am still struggling to produce the basics, it almost enought to make me want ot get out casue I never be able to sell,trade my base snakes out and i going to get overrun with the normals and othe snakes in rescues. ( almost there due to the size of my last rescue lot.)

I almost wish that there was a longer time between breeding for bps just to keep the market from being flooded.

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There's always going to be demand for the base snakes. There are always going to be new keepers coming in to the hobby who want more than just a normal. And I suspect, as more breeders are moving into combo's, the single gene animals will be lower supply, higher demand - thus pushing some of the prices back up - which is a good thing.

Even with pastels, one of the first mutations to really get into the affordable pricing for the pet owner (not the hobbiest breeder), can still demand a respectable price for the nicer examples. I sold my lemon pastel females THIS SEASON for $250 each before they even had their first shed, and the person who bought them from me told me that they would have willingly paid up to $500 each if that's what I had asked. Why? Because he's been shopping for three to four years now for pastel females that he felt were the quality he was looking for.

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Your thoughts?

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The "players" who can even afford to have to "worry" about guaranteed genetics for these multi-gene animals are very few. I think it's far too pre-mature to even speculate how this will affect the future of this hobby. We haven't even seen all the possible 2 and 3 gene combos that can be made with 60 identified base mutations. And we probably won't ever see them all in our lifetime.

The future is very bright for ball pythons and their combos. I don't see the sky falling any time soon.

I think it might open up a new market for the base morphs in a way. Prices might really fluctuate when it comes to these 15 gene animals, since we can't tell what it is, what do we go on? I figure prices will end up being based on what we know or assume the parents are, and the looks of the snake. This is where the base morphs might come in--Say you like this unknown morph mix bp, but you want to see it with a little more yellow... So now you go and buy a nice pastel or pastel mix! Now here's the exciting part for me--each clutch is going to be different. You may never get another snake that looks just like your first one that hatched. Clutches would be beautiful and full of amazing colors and patterns. I mean..having two snakes--and the potential to have 128+ DIFFERENT morphs from them? You'd never get bored!

Who knows, maybe like dogs, pure lines would increase in price(especially things like the best of the best lemon pastels, the exceptional quality single gene animals) and be almost like 'purebred' animals, since you would know exactly what you were getting!


I personally hope it encourages more breeding for good genes rather than just morph stacking with no regards to the quality of each morph. :)

I agree with JLC, I'm super excited about it.

Plus, guess what this means? Banana combos are going to be worth a lot more and plain ol bananas will start dropping in price (Already have) ... I have seen banana spinner blast at 20,000 already.

I can't WAIT to get a banana. I can't wait to hatch a dragonfly. I can't wait to make my own morph. Call it the Muffy.

Haha..

Anyway.

Breeder normals will be valuable to be proving out some genetics in these snakes though.

Has everyone forogt everything is about supply and demand? When i bought my animals in the past year i had to out bid other buyers just to get them (base morph males), sure some are great examples but when there 20 ppl asking to buy i had to bowl them over with money to get at them. Also when its down to odds on what pop out of the egg you cant just say here ive got a mojo x mojo so im getting alot of mojaves n BEL's then out of 5 eggs u get no bel, 2 mojo n 3 normal.... the lack of bel's on the market "that" year will determine their prices as well as how nice the animal looks. Sure in the near future some base morphs will drop in price and proby be all withing the 100-400$ range in about 10 years (everything but newly procuced base morphs) but thats because its hard to make alot of one base morph unless u are industrial at it or breeding that one morph exclusively.

5 gene animals look basiclly all the same to me not all but 85%. They always have lesser or butter or pastel in it, yay another yellow reduced pattern snake but hey now its worth 20k. No thanks you keep that animal ill buy bases thank you. Besides everyone keeps forgeting it takes a long long time to make a 5 gene animal so they wont be everywhere soon. 2 -3 gene animals are more varied in pattern and colour are easier to make and will still be worth 500-1500 in 10 years because unless u want to buy ur self a spider and a pastel to make yourself a bee (and have clutch mates on top of that) take 2 years waiting to breed and 1st year of breeding not get one, bet by then u really want a jigsaw tho. So in the end you will pay for the animal instead of making it unless your really into having your own collection. We pay for the breeders time they have invested in breeding and on what they get in the end, unless there is a major snake breeder in every town in North america or 50 smaller ones then id say dont worry about the prices falling and massive floods of hundreds of thousands of the same base morph on the market then your mojo will go from 350-500 to 50 bucks like a corn snake who have bigger # clutches.


Most people cant ID a 3 gene animal they produce let alone a 5. More then half of the big breeders ive seen on videos say this is cool could have this in it, then rambles off 5 names but still cant id it and these people are like jesus of the catholic church in our world and still dont know. But it still they all end up looking like a lesser pastel in the end.

There is no comparison to the ball market and corn market. With corns you get more babies and the ability to double clutch plus not to mention cornsnakes are indiginous to the unoted states so the market is no where the same as with balls. Why do you think the albino burms and albino boas tanked? Cause they produce a ton of babies in their litters versus 3 to 8 egg clutches in balls. The ball market will still survive. The market trends will change but it will still thrive

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I agree with JLC, I'm super excited about it.

Plus, guess what this means? Banana combos are going to be worth a lot more and plain ol bananas will start dropping in price (Already have) ... I have seen banana spinner blast at 20,000 already.

I can't WAIT to get a banana. I can't wait to hatch a dragonfly. I can't wait to make my own morph. Call it the Muffy.

Haha..

Anyway.

Banannas are hurting because of their reproduction issues. Just like female deserts are worthless cause they throw sluggs 95% of the time. This happened with caramels because of the kinking.

Breeder normals will be valuable to be proving out some genetics in these snakes though.

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Banannas are hurting because of their reproduction issues. Just like female deserts are worthless cause they throw sluggs 95% of the time. This happened with caramels because of the kinking.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Banannas are hurting because of their reproduction issues. Just like female deserts are worthless cause they throw sluggs 95% of the time. This happened with caramels because of the kinking.

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"reproduction issues"

No one has confirmed this is actually an issue with bananas. Lots of males being produced now with either sex. Perhaps the odds were just really bad, but proving that probability is always unknown.

Big debate about that though, and I'm not one to talk.

This is one of the reasons I prefer Recessives. I also like the looks of most recessive stuff more as well. I'd take an ultramel pied, or ultra glow over any codom combo.

I dont know. That flatline is pretty amazing

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Banannas are hurting because of their reproduction issues. Just like female deserts are worthless cause they throw sluggs 95% of the time. This happened with caramels because of the kinking.

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I know that caramels throw a large proportion of slugs, I had not heard that about deserts. In fact, I didn't know that many desert females were even laying at this point?

I know there are problems with the desert females but I'm not sure if its slugs or no eggs or what.

You know what though. I gree with others who point to the excitement/discovery aspect of a mutiple gene male. You'll never know what is going to pop out of each egg, especially with a multiple morph girl. Plus more motivation to have normal girls just to prove out what is in the male. I kinda like the idea of not knowing what kind of combos the clutch may produce and being surprised by each hatchling.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Just like female deserts are worthless cause they throw sluggs 95% of the time.

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Got to love random statistics.

Random? Lmao far from random. As anybody working with them. And i mean breeders. Without naming any names i know personally one of the biggest in the biz who has been working with deserts for 9 years and yes its a slug issue and before you say it yes deserts have been around that long. Now the desert combos are sick but they are being made with the males. If ya have any questions about desert females just ask the ones who work with them alot. I wouldnt vuy a desert female if someone offered it to me for 100 bucks

Even if its a 50/50 chance on slugs or eggs thats still to much of a gamble on an animalcin that price class

Don't we already have a couple threads in the quarantine room for debating desert and caramel reproduction and genetics? :rolleyes:

Uh oh, we've got the beginnings of another desert thread.. lol..

An afterthought to my previous post. Not only would normal females be useful for just proving out a 5+ gene male, but you could still make multiple gene combos w/o a morph female. I think this could raise the value on breedable normal girls. Especially those massive ones that throw 10+ eggs in a clutch. I think that if there is a proliferation of many-gene bps in the market, it only makes the market better and more fun. Maybe it could reduce the bottom line for those just looking to make money, but from a hobby standpoint, it seems exciting to me.

It's pretty much already been said, but maybe not quite in this way, so I'll say it again anyway :rolleyes: :rolleye2:

I think that the increasing ambiguity of genetics in a given animal, coupled with an increasing appreciation for "good quality" specimens of any given morph, will push towards a trend of animals being priced based more on appearance and bloodline and less on the morph(s) it carries.

I don't think we're at all far from the day when an exceptional looking bumblebee from top bloodlines commands a reliably higher price than a muddy brown super spinner blast.

So to address the OP's question -- I think that a brown, spotted, kinda poopy-looking snake that definitely carries ABC genes and "might" carry XYZ genes might be hard to sell in the distant future. However, a glowing, stellar, knock-your-socks off thing that probably contains this and definitely contains that will likely continue to be worth the asking price.

And yeah I agree -- it seems like a lot of these 5-6er combos all end up looking like either a faded silver snake or some sort of pastel lesser spider thing. :weirdface

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Banannas are hurting because of their reproduction issues. Just like female deserts are worthless cause they throw sluggs 95% of the time. This happened with caramels because of the kinking.

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Bananas hurting? Are you referring to the kind you eat, because certainly you don't mean the ball python mutation.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but a male banana recently sold for $67,000 in cash and trade, and that's only weeks after it was hatched! Oh yeah, hate to be in that project... :rolleyes:

Regarding female deserts, yes, I think it's safe to say there are issues. But I also think there might be more to it than we know. On another forum there was a big thread about it and the idea of lowering temperatures came up and it seems to make sense. Unfortunately, with the tragedy that struck Pro Exotics, I think any progress on that got pushed way back.

Caramels do have kinking issues, but the mutation is still selling and they look amazing. Have you seen the caramel pied? Smoking hot.

I agree with Serpent Nirvana. I think we will eventually hit a point where the look/bloodline of the animal will be most important as far as pricing goes. I know that as I build my collection of breeders I am trying to go with quality. I'll pay the extra for the better genetics and look the snake has.

I guess it's inevitable that a thread about bp morphs will turn at some point to the debate about deserts, bananas and caramels....even though those three have entirely different "issues"...different resolutions (or lack of resolutions) and have absolutely no relevance to the original topic of the thread in the first place. :rolleyes:

Personally, I thought the original topic of the thread was VERY interesting. And I agree with Robin that it's far too early to speculate with any degree of certainty what the future will look like. But it's still fun to speculate, even so.

For those with unhappy speculations...it's no fun for you. :P Sorry! :P

Seriously...the market WILL change. It's been changing since the day ball pythons were first sold as pets in the US. The day the market stops changing will be the day it's dead. Change for the better? Change for the worse? I think that's all a matter of perspective.

Lower overall prices mean more people get to enjoy more facets of this fascinating hobby.

Higher overall prices mean a few people build some wealth faster with less effort expended.

Which is better? :confuzd: Guess it depends on which party you want to be in. :P

Bananas deserts and caramels? Focus people focus....

Back to the subject.

This is going to be a long thread so bare with me... this is such a complicated subject that we need to organize it some before we can really discuss it in detail.

For starters lets see if we can for the most part agree on this.... now obviously this will vary Depending on the morphs involved.... ON AVERAGE at what point does the water definately get cloudy? Is it a 4 morph combo? At what point is the breeder likely guessing on what morphs are displayed?

Sorry mike my reptile a.d.d kicked in again. Ok focusing now. Yes i think at 4 genes the water is clouding.

I guess I'm missing what's complicated about the subject? The question was are we nearing the end of guaranteed genetics.

And no - I don't think so. Double and triple combos are going to be going strong for a LONG time now. Those who will be dealing with the larger number combos are at this time, an elite number of folks.

Though - if you think about it - all these base mutations that we have to play with are a little like leggo's. Every person can make something completely different with the same "starter set". The limit is up to that person's imagination.

I'm sure there are still many genetic Balls out there in Africa that are yet to be brought into the U.S.

That being said, that brings up many more possibilities and more combos to try. Hell I even think that many people who own "normals" have something fishy in the genes of that animal, even if it looks "normal". Like for example, certain Lessers producing Pladdy Daddy's without knowing the snake has that hidden gene in it. I even produced a normal that seems like he really took after his dinker dad's genes.

I believe there will be many more possibilities of new morphs coming into the market that await to be bred to other established morphs.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I guess I'm missing what's complicated about the subject? The question was are we nearing the end of guaranteed genetics.

And no - I don't think so. Double and triple combos are going to be going strong for a LONG time now. Those who will be dealing with the larger number combos are at this time, an elite number of folks.

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Sorry I think it is a complicated subject.

I agree, Double and triple combos are going to be going strong for a long time. However that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I disagree with your suggestion that the larger number of combos are only being worked by an elite number of folks. ANYBODY can buy a male right now with 4 morphs for about $2,000. That same person can buy a female with 2 morphs for about $400.

Not very elite.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

I'm sure there are still many genetic Balls out there in Africa that are yet to be brought into the U.S.

That being said, that brings up many more possibilities and more combos to try. Hell I even think that many people who own "normals" have something fishy in the genes of that animal, even if it looks "normal". Like for example, certain Lessers producing Pladdy Daddy's without knowing the snake has that hidden gene in it. I even produced a normal that seems like he really took after his dinker dad's genes.

I believe there will be many more possibilities of new morphs coming into the market that await to be bred to other established morphs.

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They are breeding a ton of dinker stuff in africa before it even sets foot in the country. They arent letting the stuff in like they used to now that they see the market here in the states.

Hmm.. I think that 4 gene animals are still not too hard to figure out (e.g. a pewter spinner). I think that maybe 5 genes is where it starts to get hard.


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Originally Posted by Chris633

Hmm.. I think that 4 gene animals are still not too hard to figure out (e.g. a pewter spinner). I think that maybe 5 genes is where it starts to get hard.

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Excellent example. This one should be easy right? Please post a picture of a pewter spinner. then post a picture of a pewter pinstripe. then post a picture of a cinnamon spinner. Then show the distinct differences that tells you 100% for sure, without any doubt at all what is what.

Warning, I am setting you up for failure.. and that is my point.

Ok, in the words of Barney Stinson, "challenge accepted." :D Ok, I went onto World of Ball Pythons. For the life of me I couldn't find a pewter spinner, but these are close enough. I think they are not too hard to identify the ingredients. Now if we threw a 6th gene into the last one, I think I'd be lost.

First is the Black Pewter Blast (3 genes)
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...-pewter-blast/

Next is the Black Pastel Kingspin (4 genes)
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...stel-kingspin/

Finally is the Pewter Spinner Lesser (5 genes)
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/quint/

Lol... Didn't expect you to actually pull up pictures.

But since you did, no that isn't good enough. The pictures you provided did nothing to show the clear unmistakeable differences between the combos mentioned.

If I was buying your hatchling snake (a pewter spinner) how exactly
Would you be able to guarantee me that it isn't a cinnamon spinner? Or a pewter pinstripe?

This hobby is full of surprises! Thats why I love it! Hard to predict the direction it will take because its hard to predict what will come out next.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Lol... Didn't expect you to actually pull up pictures.

But since you did, no that isn't good enough. The pictures you provided did nothing to show the clear unmistakeable differences between the combos mentioned.

If I was buying your hatchling snake (a pewter spinner) how exactly
Would you be able to guarantee me that it isn't a cinnamon spinner? Or a pewter pinstripe?

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Ok now my brain is hurting

Hmmm.. I think I stand by that 4 is probably the limit for reliable gene identification. I think it boils down to understanding the individual ingredients and basic combinations. The spinner combo is very distinguishable from either the spider or pinstripe alone. I think the picture of the Quint really highlights the spinner patterning. Now considering the color morphs, either we will end up with a yellow (pastel), coffee-like (black pastel) or a more blended color scheme (pewter). Now my theory here could completely fall apart if we picked a different set of morphs.. lol.. Hmm.. Now that I think about it, I think you can only have 2 pattern and 2 color morphs for reliable identification. If you threw enchi or spotnose into the spinner I think I'd be lost.

I have not read every post on this yet, so someone may have brought this up. This may open up niche markets for people that like single morphs and want to produce their own combos. If you have a pair of 5+ gene snakes can you really take credit for what comes out? but if you keep the genes as pure as possible and strive for the best looking base morphs I feel you will fare better in the end. An example is the Abbott okeetee corn snake, a base morph that has been refined and is still "normal". I have just got back into balls after about 20 years so I'm not sure what direction I want to go with them. I do know that whatever I produce I would like it to stand out above the rest. This gives me some food for thought, I may just keep it simple and go for quality over quantity when it comes to genes.

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Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

Personally, being relatively new to the bp world, I find it hard to differentiate between a lot of the multi gene morphs, but I know an albino when I see one ;). I think the new people coming into the bp world will always start with the easier visual morphs so I don't think those will ever go out of style.

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I agree... not to mention, most "casual" keepers don't have thousands of dollars to drop on a multi-combo-super-duper morph! Those will likely be traded only among high-end breeders/keepers, while the base morphs & normals will remain as popular as ever.

But yeah, it's a bit mind-numbing to consider the multitude of possibilities. I love reading about them, and looking at the pictures of every cool new combo... but in reality I can't afford one, and don't have the patience to breed them (at least not yet). So I'll stick with the simple snakes for now. ;)

I don't see the market tanking. There will always be people who want single and double gene snakes. A high quality pastel with minimal browning out is going to be in higher demand than a pastel that could pass for a normal. The same goes for a clean BEL. It'll be more sought after than a BEL that has greying on it's head. On top of this, don't forget that people are quite happy to buy double and triple gene snakes in order to bring new genetics into their projects. Let's not forget how many "what the hell is that?" has happened by just crossing two snakes.

To add the icing on the cake, the BP community has been going on for I don't know how long and knew morphs are still being discovered. These can either be dinkers that are imported, or ones that randomly pop up as hets.

To answer the original question: yes, I imagine some of the 4+ morphs can be hard to see, especially if they have genes that cover patterns such as pied and leutistic. But you know what? That's the fun thing about breeding: you never know what you're going to get. I've owned Al, my main goat sire, for about 5 years and I've been using him for about four years now. It never ceases to amaze me on what colors he can produce.

Back to the point..Most of these 4+, especially the 5+ are only in a select number of hands. They're not going to be hitting the open market very soon, and the ones that do..Well..If I had the money to buy one of those, I certainly wouldn't be driving a gas guzzling SUV.