Rethinking belly heat

I spoke with Tracy Barker yesterday regarding the fire hazard with belly heat via Flexwatt and she said she does not provide belly heat for her ball pythons or boas except for ovulating females and just keeps the room at 81 degrees. She also said that her females do not hit the "wall" and believes they eat better not being kept so hot. You would be hard pressed to find anyone more knowledgeable than Tracy so I think I'm going to slowly ramp my belly heat down and then eliminate it. Wouldyi like to hear other thoughts on this.

I keep my cornsnake at 80-82 or so with a UTH on one side in case she gets chilled. For the most part, she hangs out on the cool side. I've never had any issues with her. She eats wonderfully, has never regurged, and has never gotten sick.

Being new to snakes but familiar with reptiles for years...I have never really been a fan of Belly heat myself.

In nature, the heat comes from above and warms the ground/surfaces that reptiles are on. While I do have a problem with heat lamps (ones that emit light), I do like heating systems like the Pro Heat that is a heat emitter. It can be regulated with a thermostat, and then for light in your enclosure, a simple softer non heat producing light source will do the trick.

Nothing like having a big spot light beating down on you all day while drying out your enclosure for sure!

It would be interesting to see the long-term results. I think I'll stick with the belly heat for the time being but I'd be interested to see where this goes, if anywhere, and what comes of it if someone does a long-term "study" of back versus belly heat. Wonder if any of the big breeders have ever done something of the sort with two "identical" animals (clutch mates, same genes, sex, morph, etc.) and tried to control as many variables as possible with the only difference in the environment being back versus belly heat. Does it make a difference in their growth rates, temperament, clutch size, fertility, etc.? But then, I'm a nerd and think something like that would be pretty neat, lmao! Hahahaha! I sooooooooooo need to get a life! :D

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Originally Posted by Rawbbeh

Being new to snakes but familiar with reptiles for years...I have never really been a fan of Belly heat myself.

In nature, the heat comes from above and warms the ground/surfaces that reptiles are on.

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:confused: :confused: :confused:

Keeping snakes at room temps can be done successfully however it is not something I would recommend to a new owner with no experience with BP.

There is also a cost and efficiency factor that need to be assessed obviously keeping a room at a certain temps is only worth it and efficient if a large number of animals are kept, keeping a room in the 80's for a handful of snakes would be very expensive.

We just recently discussed this here

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ent-temps-only

and here

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...24#post1659824

Where you can see what I have been doing for the past year an a half

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Originally Posted by Deborah

During the winter they are provided with 78 degrees on the cool side (this is achieve with a oil filled heater) and 88 on the warm side (The warm side is 88 during the day and 80 at night since I cool down my breeders)

During the warmer months (I live in the South) April to September they are kept at 85 with no hot spot, breeders and hatchlings, and yes females have lay their eggs with no hot spot also.

Because the snake room is a bonus room over the garage it gets hotter than in any other parts of the house. To make it efficient energy wise I chose to work with it rather than fighting it having to run the AC to cool it down to 78 and than having to provide a hot spot.

Works great that our second year in this house and the snake have adjusted to this without any issue.

Now would I recommend that to a beginner barely starting out? No I always recommend optimal setting that I know will help a new owner with their animal limiting feeding issues and behavioral problems, once they understand their animal however they should experiment if they feel comfortable enough to do so and find what works for them.

They can be kept various way what necessary is to find what works for your animals and for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Clear

:confused: :confused: :confused:

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I have had lizards (Primarily Bearded Dragons) and turtles. While my turtles I kept outside using natural sunlight for warmth and such. The bearded dragons I had in an enclosure inside. The earth's surface doesn't heat itself. The warmth of the ground on a hot day comes from the sunlight that bears down on it. Likewise. Under the tank heating is not "natural" while above heating is.

Any heat that is absorbed by the ground will lose its heat as it is covered. Take standing on a beach on a summer day. The sand burns your feet. But if you stand in that spot long enough, it loses it's heat and it is more comfortable to stand on. Likewise, a turtle basking on a rock...or an alligator on the shore of a river...

Hence why, I prefer personally, to use a heat emitter mounted in the top of my enclosures to replicate the way the sun heats the earth. UTH's I tend not to use for enclosures except for a temporary enclosure/small enclosure for a baby before it moves up to a more permanent place once it gets bigger.

Just my two cents...

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Keeping snakes at room temps can be done successfully however it is not something I would recommend to a new owner with no experience with BP.

There is also a cost and efficiency factor that need to be assessed obviously keeping a room at a certain temps is only worth it and efficient if a large number of animals are kept, keeping a room in the 80's for a handful of snakes would be very expensive.

We just recently discussed this here

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ent-temps-only

and here

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...24#post1659824

Where you can see what I have been doing for the past year an a half

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I do it quite easily. The house has central heating/cooling so all I do is keep the door to my room mostly shut. The house stays in the lower to mid 70s anyways.

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Originally Posted by Rawbbeh

In nature, the heat comes from above and warms the ground/surfaces that reptiles are on.

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Um no actually. The sun warms the ground. The ground warms the snake. BP's are not known to be big into sun bathing.

Belly heat here and for ever.

My snakes eat non stop and grow very well. Females do their thing and lay eggs.

Do it how ever YOU like not what someone else does and think its the only way to do it. By keeping belly heat your allowed to have room temps 75-80. But when you start using back heat room temps will need to be higher to maintain any stable temp

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

By keeping belly heat your allowed to have room temps 75-80. But when you start using back heat room temps will need to be higher to maintain any stable temp

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I disagree.

First my room temp varies with the house temp, normally anywhere from low 70's to 80.

Belly heat worked fine for me until i switched from newspaper to substrate, then the substrate was screwing up my temps. I switched to back heat and temps have been spot on. Room temp never changed so i have to disagree with you.

I have had better results with back heat as far as temp control. Any difference with my animals...nope. Eating better or worse...nope. natural or not as far as i can tell they don't care, just do what works for you.

but what I think the op is talking about is no heat on the cage at all, which I talk to a person that does that and keep their room 80+. as already stated you might want to figure out the cost. but referring to the op again, i think they are doing it as reasons for fire safety

Well we all know thermostats can fail and flexwatt can have problems. but it is very rare. I ran a foot of 11 inch flex unregulated as a test, only got 150 degrees under a tub in my 80 degree room, not nearly hot enough to light anything on fire or melt it.....cause harm to an animal though, yes.

But looking at the other way, your thermostat on the room heater can also fail and so can that heater, nothing is 100% safe. the same event of failure we fear with flexwatt, the room heater might cause more damage since It would be effecting the entire collection.

so which risk is less?

To be more specific Tracy isn't using back heat either and only keeps her room at 81. I can keep mine there without a space heater so it would take the risk of fire way down. She even said they are doing better at that temp. Keep in mind that there are few more experienced than the Barkers.

Just giving my opinion on heat versus no heat, I feel that an external heat source is a must with my snakes who like it warmer than room temperature. I personally feel that if the temperatures are lower than they ought to be my snakes become more susceptible to illness. Not saying that if their temps aren't right they WILL come down with an illness, just feel that over time without heat they may catch something I don't want to have in my collection.

I suppose it's more of a precaution for my collection. I used to volunteer at a place that I noticed wouldn't use heat for some snakes like Ball pythons or Red tails for example. Over time some of those snakes came down with an RI, some more worse than others. Certain individuals would also stop eating. So that was the cause of the way I think when certain heat-loving snakes don't have any type of an external heat source.

I have a great deal of respect for the Barkers and the experience they bring. They are well respected in and out of the hobby most reciently being experts called on by USARK.

I also know they use the very best in controls and instrumentation. I am sure if she says 81 she means 81 correct. not 79-83 someplace. There is a high cost to get precision. Keeping a room at 82 perfectly is hard I would like to know what the exact range they have is. I have read lots of the comments they have made about the rising temps in the hobby Royals in particular. I believe them and I am sure they have it to work but I am also completely sure it is not as easy as it sounds.

Personally with a small collection I have each animal individually adjusted temp wise some have 88º hot spots and lower cool end temps others have higher based on how an individual acts and the shifts they make. All my animals use both hides typically 70%/30% splits. Although I trust the validity of the experience I am not sure it is prudent to suggest it across the board as signs of problems are not easy to spot for the inexperienced.

I'm not proposing keeping snakes at room temperature comfortable to humans, unless you really like it warm ;). In Pythons of the World Vol. II, Ball Pythons, the Barkers state this (bottom of first column on page 171):
"Most of the time, we keep our subadult and growing ball pythons at 80 to 82 degrees F without any supplemental heat. We raise all of our hatchlings in small cages without basking spots in a room that is 80 degrees F in the day and 78 degrees F at night." On the same page they state this: "When a snake is digesting a meal, it generates heat. Many keepers don't realize this, but in an enclosed area, a ball python that is digesting a good-sized meal can raise its body temperature at least 2 or 3 degrees F above ambient. We've seen several large ball pythons, each with a meal inside it, packed into an insulated shipping box that got so warm in the box from the heat generated by the snakes that they were severely stressed by the time they were unpacked."
There is a lot more but I don't feel comfortable giving all the information in the book as the Barkers put a ton of time into it and deserve to get paid for those wanting the information. I highly recommend getting it if you are interested in knowing more on the subject (and it covers a whole lot more information than temps - it is probably the most comprehensive book ever written on the species). Look, I'm not saying everything stops with the Barkers. Everybody is different and do what works best for you. The reason I'm throwing this out there is that maybe we do need to rethink things. Why are we risking fire as well as spiking our electricity (the latter as has been pointed out is for those of us with larger collections) if it isn't necessary? Not only that but maybe it isn't the best way to keep them afterall. The reason I bring up who stated this is I wanted it to be clear this isn't coming from an inexperienced keeper. The Barkers quite possibly have more experience in keeping and breeding pythons than anybody else.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have a great deal of respect for the Barkers and the experience they bring. They are well respected in and out of the hobby most reciently being experts called on by USARK.

I also know they use the very best in controls and instrumentation. I am sure if she says 81 she means 81 correct. not 79-83 someplace. There is a high cost to get precision. Keeping a room at 82 perfectly is hard I would like to know what the exact range they have is. I have read lots of the comments they have made about the rising temps in the hobby Royals in particular. I believe them and I am sure they have it to work but I am also completely sure it is not as easy as it sounds.

Personally with a small collection I have each animal individually adjusted temp wise some have 88º hot spots and lower cool end temps others have higher based on how an individual acts and the shifts they make. All my animals use both hides typically 70%/30% splits. Although I trust the validity of the experience I am not sure it is prudent to suggest it across the board as signs of problems are not easy to spot for the inexperienced.

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Good points and I do agree with you. Not to be misunderstood, I'm simply stating that maybe we just need to re-examine things rather than just following the whole "80 on the cool side and 88 for the basking side" blindly. I definitely agree that formula is probably best for the beginner to avoid RI's, non-feeding snakes, etc. But for those of us that have a few years under our belts, maybe we need to look into this. I definitely do not plan to just suddenly drop my snakes temps. I'm thinking of racheting it down slowly and observing them closely for any signs of problems.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

I'm not proposing keeping snakes at room temperature comfortable to humans, unless you really like it warm ;).

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That's me, lol. Upper 70s, lower 80s is perfect for me. Frankly, it's also the needed minimum temps for a lot of reptiles. It's part of the reason why I'm not overly worried about my reptiles. Now, at the other house, my room was usually in the 50s during winter due to poor insulation. You can bet everyone had heat pads and heat lamps.

I started dropping the temps on my tstats last week and I'm currently trying to regulate my room to 83 or so. Once the hot spots are down to 83 the tstats are going into storage.

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Originally Posted by Rawbbeh

Being new to snakes but familiar with reptiles for years...I have never really been a fan of Belly heat myself.

In nature, the heat comes from above and warms the ground/surfaces that reptiles are on. While I do have a problem with heat lamps (ones that emit light), I do like heating systems like the Pro Heat that is a heat emitter. It can be regulated with a thermostat, and then for light in your enclosure, a simple softer non heat producing light source will do the trick.

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Originally Posted by Rawbbeh

I have had lizards (Primarily Bearded Dragons) and turtles. While my turtles I kept outside using natural sunlight for warmth and such. The bearded dragons I had in an enclosure inside. The earth's surface doesn't heat itself. The warmth of the ground on a hot day comes from the sunlight that bears down on it. Likewise. Under the tank heating is not "natural" while above heating is.

Any heat that is absorbed by the ground will lose its heat as it is covered. Take standing on a beach on a summer day. The sand burns your feet. But if you stand in that spot long enough, it loses it's heat and it is more comfortable to stand on. Likewise, a turtle basking on a rock...or an alligator on the shore of a river...

Hence why, I prefer personally, to use a heat emitter mounted in the top of my enclosures to replicate the way the sun heats the earth. UTH's I tend not to use for enclosures except for a temporary enclosure/small enclosure for a baby before it moves up to a more permanent place once it gets bigger.

Just my two cents...

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Your not getting it. The sun heats the objects on earth that most if not all reptiles will bask on. They will absorb heat from above and below. A UTH and any belly heat acts like a surface that was heated by the sun and emits heat for our reptiles to absorb.

I will continue to keep my racks dialed in at a 90 degree hot spot because it works for me. I don't have a snake room.

I think people are sometimes too quick to make changes just because a big breeder says something.

Just because something works for the barkers, doesn't mean it will work for the average Joe. I think people aren't considering a lot of the potential complications... Here are a few that the average Joe in the average house might experience...

1. Depending on a lot of different factors, the electricity required to heat a room can be WAY more then what it costs to power several large racks.
2. Depending on the kind of floor you have, Wall insulation, and ceiling insulation you could experience huge differences in temperature from tub to tub depending on the hight of each tub. My house for example has a floor crawl space with wood floors. The floor temp is easily 10 degrees lower then the ceiling.
3. depending on the room size and dimensions and the temperature of the rest of the house, and the size and type of the heater used you could experience huge differences in temperature from tub to tub depending on distance from the heater. for example if one tub is 5 feet away from heater and another is 10 feet away... They will both have different temperatures of probably at least a few degrees.
4. Sure 2 and 3 could possibly be addressed to a certain extent using fans to circulate the air but then you are spending even more electricity! And that would make the heater work even harder.

Obviously it can be done, and some do it... But I think it is not practical for the average Joe.

Let me clarify a few things. First, I would not propose a beginning keeper do this. I've kept other snakes successfully without belly heat (boas and a variety of colubrids) in a heated room. I also plan to monitor this very closely taking temperature readings of every tub and doing this slowly. Secondly, I do have a dedicated well insulated building with it's own climate control. Nothing fancy like what VPI has but I can keep it pretty toasty in there and I also live in a very warm climate (South Texas). I also have enough snakes to make this worthwhile, especially considering I'll be saving quite a bit of money 1/3 of the year by not trying to keep the building at 80 or below during the hot months and during the Spring neither the A/C or the heat will probably be needed except maybe a bit of heat at night. So the only real increase in electricity will be the middle of winter. I do realize you can get variances between tubs but even with Flexwatt, you can get some variances from tub to tub. Obviously if you live in a cool climate, you can get wide variances so I do agree that this may not work for everybody. All I'm saying is that we "might" want to re-think things hence the title of this thread ;)

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have a great deal of respect for the Barkers and the experience they bring. They are well respected in and out of the hobby most reciently being experts called on by USARK.

I also know they use the very best in controls and instrumentation. I am sure if she says 81 she means 81 correct. not 79-83 someplace. There is a high cost to get precision. Keeping a room at 82 perfectly is hard I would like to know what the exact range they have is. I have read lots of the comments they have made about the rising temps in the hobby Royals in particular. I believe them and I am sure they have it to work but I am also completely sure it is not as easy as it sounds.

Personally with a small collection I have each animal individually adjusted temp wise some have 88º hot spots and lower cool end temps others have higher based on how an individual acts and the shifts they make. All my animals use both hides typically 70%/30% splits. Although I trust the validity of the experience I am not sure it is prudent to suggest it across the board as signs of problems are not easy to spot for the inexperienced.

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I've been thinking about this some more and I have to respectfully disagree with the claim that VPI is keeping their building EXACTLY 81 degrees. That's not possible due to how A/C units work. In order to keep it exactly that temperature, the A/C unit would have to cycle on and off constantly which would burn up the compressor prematurely (my dad is a retired A/C guy so I've a bit of knowledge on this :)) With heat, you could get closer by putting it on a proportional thermostat. However, due to heat rising, you are not going to be able to keep every part of the building at one temperature no matter whether it's time for the A/C or time for the heater. The higher you go, the hotter it is. The areas closest to walls/windows are going to be hotter/cooler depending on the weather outside. Another point here is these snakes are not completely helpless when it comes to regulating their temperatures. As has already been mentioned, they can raise their temperature 2-3 degrees when digesting. Females are able to adjust temperatures when incubating eggs. I talked to my vet quite a while back (former zoo vet with a ton of experience with snakes) and he said they are also able to adjust their metabolism which explains why they can fast so long. Obviously this also can come into play when it comes to temperature tolerance. Personally I plan to ramp down belly heat and ramp up ambient heat but I plan to do it very slowly. I agree with Deborah that this is not for first time snake owners. This is something I'm going to be doing very cautiously and will be monitoring the animals very closely. But if I get rid of the fire hazard, lower electric bill except during the winter and stop having females hit the dreaded "wall", then the experiment will be well worth it. If animals start going off feed and causing problems, then I just start raising things back up and abandon it. I really do not see the downside with trying this as long as it's done cautiously.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

But if I get rid of the fire hazard, lower electric bill except during the winter and stop having females hit the dreaded "wall", then the experiment will be well worth it.

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What wall are you talking about? And what fire hazard?! How will you have a lower electric bill, even in the summer?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

What wall are you talking about? And what fire hazard?! How will you have a lower electric bill, even in the summer?

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Are we going to pretend that flexwatt isn't a fire hazard now?

And obviously it is easier to heat a room in the summer than it is in the winter. Mine reaches 86-87 after 12-1pm if I don't cool it off manually.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

What wall are you talking about? And what fire hazard?! How will you have a lower electric bill, even in the summer?

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The tendency of female ball pythons to stop feeding when they reach subadult size (not all do this but it's not uncommon) is sometimes referred to the "wall". That's what I was referring to. I have experienced this so if lowering the heat could solve it, I'm all for giving it a try.
As for the fire hazard, running Flexwatt is a fire hazard, period. There's no getting around that. Yes, many keepers do run it and haven't had an issue. But the more electrical stuff you are running, the more chance of something malfunctioning and catching fire. From what I heard, it was Flexwatt that caused Bob Clark's fire and I'll bet when the dust settles it's going to be the cause of Pro Exotic's too. Obviously space heaters are fire hazards themselves but that's not what I'm running. I have a window unit that has built in heat so it's no more fire hazard than a home's central heat.
As for lower electric bill, it would be much lower in the summer by keeping the room at 81-84 (haven't determined yet where it will be) rather than 78. I live in South Texas and it gets very hot down here during the summer so by keeping the room warmer, the A/C isn't working so hard. This summer the A/C unit worked so hard due to the extreme heat that the building never cooled down where it needed to be and the compressor is now on it's last leg. The Flexwatt running didn't help matters. If I wasn't running Flexwatt and allowed the temps to just go up 3-6 degrees, I guarantee my electric bill would have been much lower and probably wouldn't be about to replace the A/C unit either. During the Spring/Fall, the days are going to be pretty close to that so it won't work hard at all. Heat would be needed on some nights but not too much. So 3/4 of the year I'm having an easier time keeping the ambient temps than it's current setting of 78 (FYI, due to the Flexwatt, the cool side of the tubs is actually 80, not 78). During the winter I will definitely see a spike but again, we don't have harsh winters too often. I understand not everybody is in this situation. If you live up North, trying to maintain these higher ambients rather than belly heat will likely cause your electric bill to go through the roof.
At any rate, this is an experiment that I'm being careful with. I'm not saying it will work for everybody but I think given the potential benefits, it's worth a try.

Thanks for the great subject and I'm glad others are considering this. I've gone to cages with infrared lights, no bellyheat, and it's worked out very well for me. Temps and humidity are spot on. My BP's have done much better than last year when I had them with bellyheat in a room heated to 80 degrees. Now I can keep the room at 78 degrees or less. Much more comfortable for me. :)

Part of what I intended is they use accurate thermometers. The accuracy is very very high (my cheaper LOL one is +/- 0.02ºC . Many many times better than what is commonly used.) When they say 81 they mean 81 accurately. The typical range is +/- 2º I do not believe this is good enough 81º not 79º as a max. They are using very accurate instruments. Knowing temps are accurate is critical in this kind of a set up. I use an RTD platinum thermometer. I have it re-calibrated every year so I know it is correct. I would not attempt with out KNOWING what the temps actually are and that is expensive. I spend a massive amount on instrumentations for my work and know how poor most cheap thermometers are.

I am sure VPI know the temps accurately and can maintain them. I can't speak to commercial or home HVAC systems I work with lab grade gear and I can assure you that room temps can be controlled accurately. I don't know if they do, but they have good instruments.

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Originally Posted by spitzu

Are we going to pretend that flexwatt isn't a fire hazard now?

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Are we going to pretend that flexwatt is now all of a sudden some kind of extreme fire hazard?

Anything with electricity can be considered a fire hazard. Is flexwatt more of a fire hazard then whatever heater you are using? Statistically, probaby not. Just like anything else, it just has to be set up correctly.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

The tendency of female ball pythons to stop feeding when they reach subadult size (not all do this but it's not uncommon) is sometimes referred to the "wall". That's what I was referring to..

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Considering many keepers like me with a traditional setup who have larger collections don't have this problem at all, it is probably something else that is causing your females to stop feeding.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

As for lower electric bill, it would be much lower in the summer by keeping the room at 81-84 (haven't determined yet where it will be) rather than 78. I live in South Texas and it gets very hot down here during the summer so by keeping the room warmer, the A/C isn't working so hard. This summer the A/C unit worked so hard due to the extreme heat that the building never cooled down where it needed to be and the compressor is now on it's last leg. The Flexwatt running didn't help matters. If I wasn't running Flexwatt and allowed the temps to just go up 3-6 degrees, I guarantee my electric bill would have been much lower and probably wouldn't be about to replace the A/C unit either. During the Spring/Fall, the days are going to be pretty close to that so it won't work hard at all. Heat would be needed on some nights but not too much. So 3/4 of the year I'm having an easier time keeping the ambient temps than it's current setting of 78 (FYI, due to the Flexwatt, the cool side of the tubs is actually 80, not 78). During the winter I will definitely see a spike but again, we don't have harsh winters too often. I understand not everybody is in this situation. If you live up North, trying to maintain these higher ambients rather than belly heat will likely cause your electric bill to go through the roof.

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Ok, in your particular case it may cost less electricity. That said, why are you putting so much money and effort into a 78 degree room?! The room could easily be 80 to 82 degrees and the traditional 88 - 90 hotspot would still work just fine.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

At any rate, this is an experiment that I'm being careful with. I'm not saying it will work for everybody but I think given the potential benefits, it's worth a try

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Understood. I am not trying to convince anyone that one way is right, and one way is wrong... I am just trying to get people to look at the whole picture before jumping into something that may not make sense for the average Joe.

I keep it @ 78 because the front of the cage will get too warm otherwise due to belly heat. I really don't know how we can say Flexwatt is not a fire hazard. You are going to have to use a heater whether you use belly heat or not. I would much rather just worry about the heater than Flexwatt too. As for subadult females going off feed, this has been discussed quite a bit and is not uncommon for them to fast. I can assure you my husbandry is sound and this is actually the exception not the rule. They always go back on feed and do fine after that. Also, if this was an unknown occurrence then Tracy would not have brought it up as a benefit ( l never mentioned the problem). We don't have to agree on this. I'm sure you know what you are doing and what is best for you're situation.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

I keep it @ 78 because the front of the cage will get too warm otherwise due to belly heat.

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Please note... I am not trying to argue with you by any means... I also am not trying to say the my way is right and your way is wrong.

How was the cold side getting too warm? What temperature did you have the hot side set at?

Most comercial rack systems I am familiar with are made for room temperatures of 77 - 82 degrees. Even if the room was at 82, the hot spot should have been throwing out so much heat that the cold side was too hot.

Some more info for the argument.

I have my snakes in my room, and I can't stand having the room at 80+ lol. I have always just kept my room at a steady 75 degrees. I also provide a 90 degree hotspot. I did however keep a KSB in a room that was around 72 degrees most of the time with no hot spot at all. This snake is and probably always will be my best eater in my collection. I keep her in my room now, but she was at my gf's house for the first year of her life. I wasn't aware what she was doing, and was floored when I found out she was being kept like this. But what puzzled me was how healthy she was, and how she managed to never miss a meal(and I mean NEVER). Never had a symptom of any kind of infection, nothing! I personally believe our animals are a lot more hardy then we may think. I think we spoil them with these perfect environments and some of the extents we go to maybe unnecessary. Would I keep my snakes in 72 degree environment? No! Obviously, this is too low and asking for issues. All I'm saying is that, our animals are not as sensitive as we may think. Like I said my ambient temps never go above 75, maybe 78. I've never had a problem with any of my animals. Granted I've only been doing this for around 4 years now, but its still a decent amount of time to not have an issue.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Please note... I am not trying to argue with you by any means... I also am not trying to say the my way is right and your way is wrong.

How was the cold side getting too warm? What temperature did you have the hot side set at?

Most comercial rack systems I am familiar with are made for room temperatures of 77 - 82 degrees. Even if the room was at 82, the hot spot should have been throwing out so much heat that the cold side was too hot.

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I am not arguing with you either and appreciate that we are discussing this ina civilized way. Bascally the heat at the back causes the front to be about 2 degrees over ambient. I guess given I am looking at taking away the hot spot and raising the ambient it might not havr mattered.