Super ball

So I just left repticon and was some super balls, ball x blood. They were talking about breeding them. ?? Thought the cross was infertile.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a68909fd-1679-0174.jpg

No they're fertile

But they're a MUTT

Won't find any love from Blood/Short Tail enthusiasts on hybrids

Ditto on what 2kdime said. I'm fine with the concept of hybrids, but there are plenty of crosses I don't like. I haven't seen a blood or short tail hybrid that I like, they turn out ugly and can look too much like either parent species, ESPECIALLY when people cross bloods and STPs.

Not a fan either but wanted to clear it up. They looked like a ball with more washed out alien heads.

i think its funny how some hybrids are hated yet others loved. the carpondro is getting lots of momentum and love.

Just goes to show that there is a sucker born every minute, and they love company. I haven't seen a hybrid that I'd give a plugged nickel for.

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Originally Posted by Subdriven

So I just left repticon and was some super balls, ball x blood. They were talking about breeding them. ?? Thought the cross was infertile.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a68909fd-1679-0174.jpg

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No one ever said they were infertile.. The original super balls (Borneo x Ball) were being bred back to balls and creating more that were 75% ball and so on.. This was a few years ago at least.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i think its funny how some hybrids are hated yet others loved. the carpondro is getting lots of momentum and love.

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I don't like any of them.

I personally like walls.

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I don't particularly like them but that is just my opinion.

What is bigger than that though is that animals like this hurt us as a herp community. We all know all too well how the uneducated and ignorant are always trying to bring down our hobby for various BS reasons... When we do things like this it gives them a whole lot more ammunition... If it is wright or wrong doesn't matter much in the end.

I hope the more reputable shows would consider banning such animals from their tables in the future...

Really?? Why are people against this? If it's not suffering. I don't see any difference in this and say a bumble bee. Both are something you won't see in the wild. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Really?? Why are people against this? If it's not suffering. I don't see any difference in this and say a bumble bee. Both are something you won't see in the wild. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

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Please. Pastel Ball Pythons and Spider Ball Pythons are both Ball Pythons.... Kind of like there are human beings of different races. Differnet colors but still all 100% human beings.

Having owned both Bloods and Ball Pythons, I can tell you that they are VERY different animals.... More like Humans and Gorillas. Would it be ok for human beings to breed with Gorillas?

Nevermind... don't want your answer to that. :)

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Please. Pastel Ball Pythons and Spider Ball Pythons are both Ball Pythons.... Kind of like there are human beings of different races. Differnet colors but still all 100% human beings.

Having owned both Bloods and Ball Pythons, I can tell you that they are VERY different animals.... More like Humans and Gorillas. Would it be ok for human beings to breed with Gorillas?

Nevermind... don't want your answer to that. :)

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Well according to scientist, I've never done genetic testing myself, at some point in the past we did interbreed with chimpanzees. Also those steaks you cooked on the grill, most likely, came from hybrid animals.

about 70 percent of our fruits and vegetables we regularly eat are hybrids as well(and not just like two types of apples, totally different plants), it's true.

I'm not too big a fan of super balls either, I've seen maybe one that I liked, but that's it. I really feel like breeding hybrids should be done rarely and only done by those who really know what they are doing. I don't think you can stop people from wanting to make hybrids(especially with snakes like carpandros and walls, there are plenty of people willing to pay a lot for them), so I don't think it will ever fully go away. As long as it's here, it should be watched carefully and done with respect to both species involved, and the hybrid should be treated and sold as a hybrid!

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Well according to scientist, I've never done genetic testing myself, at some point in the past we did interbreed with chimpanzees. Also those steaks you cooked on the grill, most likely, came from hybrid animals.

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Johnny: "But mommy, all the other kids are doing these bad things... Why can't I?"

Mommy "Because we taught you better then that Johnny... Just because others are doing it, doesn't make it right"

If you believe that human beings interbred with chimpanzees, then you should seek help outside of this forum. There is only so much one can hope to accomplish on a snake forum...

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Well according to scientist, I've never done genetic testing myself, at some point in the past we did interbreed with chimpanzees. Also those steaks you cooked on the grill, most likely, came from hybrid animals.

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who are these scientist??? they probably don't have a job anymore. this is a ridicuously statment. i think you should check you facts on that one.

I'm not a fan of any hybrids ... boooooo to the mutt snakes

I much prefer hybridization in fish over reptiles.

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Wow. What is with the animosity to these snakes??? Minus the human chimp thing thats a whole other argument.. But look at our best friends? Dogs!!!

No one on here can argue that dogs are different. They are different breeds.. And yes i know there is a difference between breed and species.. But imo not much. A great dane and a tea cup poodle are as close as a burm and a ball. In theory... And yet we interbreed dogs everyday.. A puggle..pug and a beagle... I dont see the harm in it.. Also a mule?? The offspring of a horse and a donkey.. I could go on..

That's the argument I agree with. The hypocrisy of it. Your comparison of horses and donkeys creating mules is a great one. They are a genetically different species but genetically compatible. Mules are not fertile, however, some of these hybrid snakes are.

Mules in fact, are so different from horses that they not only have a different gait when they walk, but they are able to see where they are putting all 4 feet as they walk. Horses do not have this ability. Mules get this ability from donkeys. This is why they use mules for the trail tours down into the grand canyon. A horse would likely trip or slip off the edge of those narrow rock wall trails going down or coming up because they can not see where they are putting all 4 of their feet.

Why is it we are ok with hybridizing some animals but not others? It seems like if it's something that's been done for the last 50-100 years then sure, it's ok. It's something we all grew up with, but god forbid someone mixes anything new.

Dogs are a great one too. Where did they come from in the first place?

I agree that all species should be preserved. Especially the locale's. We have some that are even believed to be fully extinct in the wild now and are only existent in the pet trade. The Sabogae boa (BCS) for instance. I hate seeing those being bred with anything that isn't also a pure BCS because there are so few left on the planet.

When it comes to mixing snake species, and keep in mind that even in the USA, there is plenty of natural mixing of colubrids going on in the wild and locales are just disappearing by their own means, but mixing things like pythons that aren't found in the same areas, should be done with intelligence and should be properly represented if selling them.

I don't see the harm if it isn't endangering a species or it isn't being passed off as something it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

If you believe that human beings interbred with chimpanzees, then you should seek help outside of this forum. There is only so much one can hope to accomplish on a snake forum...

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

who are these scientist??? they probably don't have a job anymore. this is a ridicuously statment. i think you should check you facts on that one.

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I think you two will find this earth shattering, then: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/sc...998951&ei=5070

Anyways. I think that super ball is quite interesting looking. Absolutely love the pattern.

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Really?? Why are people against this? If it's not suffering. I don't see any difference in this and say a bumble bee. Both are something you won't see in the wild. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

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There are a lot of arguments against hybrid breeding some of which I agree with, and some of which I do not.

One of the main arguments against cross breeding python species comes from breeders and collectors. Snakes are one pet that are almost guaranteed to have multiple different owners throughout their lives. A lot of the time these animals land into the hands of people who don't know much about them. From here they can re-enter the market as a pure ball python. Although this isn't such an issue now as there really isn't a market out there, or the supply for hybrid snakes. The concern is that this could change in the future as more work is being done with them, and often they look really cool.

Another thing is that hybrids often have health issues in general. From growth and development, and husbandry. Because your breed two snakes that may have different needs for incubation, heat, humidity, etc - A lot of them die, or are sterile, or have neurological disorders - and its unfair to purposely try and create something that MAY have a miserable existence. (Meh..)

Personally I stand on the fence - I think hybrids are really cool and a lot more work needs to be done with them. At the same time I think that people need to be responsible with them and if they are being sold into the market that buyers need to be very aware of what they buying and the challenges that come with owning a hybrid animal.

The problem is that there is a HUGE hobby breeders community - and unfortunately not all of us are responsible. There's no way to stop the hybrid breeding - you just need to be well informed when buying an animal.

Cheers.

Oh aside from natural evolution, I believe that hybrid experiment has been attempted more than once. It's just so unacceptable that you never hear about the old experiments now. It is something I was able to find a good amount on a few years ago though...

"Gallagher had heard of a doctor in Shenyang, in northeast China, who claimed to have achieved success with the artificial insemination of human sperm to a female chimpanzee, only to have the three-month-old fetus destroyed by Red Guards who came in and smashed up his laboratory."

So you see, you can not discount it. It's genetically possible. That's a fact. Wether or not this person actually did it, the world will never know.

Plus check out the Russian Dr that tried as well. Ilya Ivanovich or Ivanov. You can find info on these mad scientists that DID experiments on this.

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Originally Posted by 2kdime

No they're fertile

But they're a MUTT

Won't find any love from Blood/Short Tail enthusiasts on hybrids

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I guess blood/short tail enthusiasts arent SNAKE enthusiasts.. I dunno. I dont particularily care for colubrids.. But i still find them super cool an interesting.. But then again im a snake enthusiast.. I enjoy these creatures regardless of size temperment or species.. Id love to own some hots too.. But i wont ever.. I still like them though!!

Hate hybrids such as this...


20 years from now many of us will have a Ball (or blood) in your collection that isn't 100% pure because of this. No matter how careful you think you are...it'll become difficult to trace lineage of new animals as these Super Balls are bred back to balls (or Bloods) of...F3...F4...and so on.

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Hate hybrids such as this...


20 years from now many of us will have a Ball (or blood) in your collection that isn't 100% pure because of this. No matter how careful you think you are...it'll become difficult to trace lineage of new animals as these Super Balls are bred back to balls (or Bloods) of...F3...F4...and so on.

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Hmm.. That is a valid point.. A very valod point.. However.. Let me ask you this. Within pure breed dogs.. Ones that have been kept pure generation after generation. Has there not been an increase in health problems?? Hips in akitas, respitory issues in pugs, blindness in others?

Im not familiar on how many bps are eing brought in wc into our hands. But id assume high end wc snakes are few and far between.. Thus it would be safe to say the high end morphs are a fairly closed bloodline and wr could begin seeing these un desirable traits in our current "pure" bps. One that comes to mind is the spider wobble.. Seems to me this after 10-15 years could become a genetic trait that may be in a large portion of bps..

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Originally Posted by Simplex

Hmm.. That is a valid point.. A very valod point.. However.. Let me ask you this. Within pure breed dogs.. Ones that have been kept pure generation after generation. Has there not been an increase in health problems?? Hips in akitas, respitory issues in pugs, blindness in others?

Im not familiar on how many bps are eing brought in wc into our hands. But id assume high end wc snakes are few and far between.. Thus it would be safe to say the high end morphs are a fairly closed bloodline and wr could begin seeing these un desirable traits in our current "pure" bps. One that comes to mind is the spider wobble.. Seems to me this after 10-15 years could become a genetic trait that may be in a large portion of bps..

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I see what you are saying...but I haven't noticed any sort of health digression in the species (BP) as a whole. Rather they are seen within certain traits; as you stated there are wobbles with spiders, kinks with caramels...and deserts, well I will leave that alone. ;) I know you didn't state this, but I just want to make the point that I do not agree with the notion of hybridizing simply to avoid weakness, or kinks in further down the lineage...

I feel it is unfortunate that those of us that believe in purity of the species will most likely be affected by hybridization in the future whether we like it or not.

No i understand that.. But also now that i think of it... Back to my original point on dog breeds.. These have been bred pure for years.. And its not uncommon to pay thousands for a pedigreed dog if its desirable.. Champions heirs and such... Also dog purity is very much controlled.. Papers. Governing bodies.. Right now i feel bps are in a "trust" phase. Big breeders do have garantees and track this stuff. But smaller ones dont not.. U will always have those bigger perfection lineage purity based breeders to get ur stock from.. Same will exsist as it does in dogs.. Mom amd pop un registered puppies vs perfectly traced heritage champion dogs from a reputable breeder... Both could be gorgeous huskies... But ones worth 500 and ones 5000

Also not trying to entice here.. Just a very interesting how different opinions exsist..

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Originally Posted by Simplex

No i understand that.. But also now that i think of it... Back to my original point on dog breeds.. These have been bred pure for years.. And its not uncommon to pay thousands for a pedigreed dog if its desirable.. Champions heirs and such... Also dog purity is very much controlled.. Papers. Governing bodies.. Right now i feel bps are in a "trust" phase. Big breeders do have garantees and track this stuff. But smaller ones dont not.. U will always have those bigger perfection lineage purity based breeders to get ur stock from.. Same will exsist as it does in dogs.. Mom amd pop un registered puppies vs perfectly traced heritage champion dogs from a reputable breeder... Both could be gorgeous huskies... But ones worth 500 and ones 5000

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And those perfectly lined dogs tend to have health problems out the wazoo due to inbreeding..

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Originally Posted by Raptor

And those perfectly lined dogs tend to have health problems out the wazoo due to inbreeding..

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I agree 100%. Pure breeds tend to have many more health issues than mutts. I would know I work at an animal hospital and see it everyday.

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Originally Posted by kevinb

I agree 100%. Pure breeds tend to have many more health issues than mutts. I would know I work at an animal hospital and see it everyday.

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My step-sister saved up and bought a show lined Scottish Terrier. By three or four, the dog had severe allergies and would try to scratch holes in her skin. By five, she could hardly pee, and when she did, she'd pee blood. No infections or anything. She was diagnosed with bladder cancer. She didn't make it to five and a half.

Now all of us that like certain hybrids are scared to comment on this thread. :(

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Originally Posted by Raptor

My step-sister saved up and bought a show lined Scottish Terrier. By three or four, the dog had severe allergies and would try to scratch holes in her skin. By five, she could hardly pee, and when she did, she'd pee blood. No infections or anything. She was diagnosed with bladder cancer. She didn't make it to five and a half.

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A little off topic but what I don't understand is pure bred enthusiasts hate mutts, yet breeders sell puggles and laberdoodles and chugs, etc for thousands...yet aren't they nothing but mutts as well? If that's the case I have like $5,000 worth of dogs lol.

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I think this shows why hybrids are a good thing.. We could go round and round for ever and theres no one right amswer. But new blood is a good thing.. Those superballs may be a whole new thing kept within themselves... Or not.. Could go a few ways.. But i dont see them going away

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Originally Posted by Simplex

Wow. What is with the animosity to these snakes??? Minus the human chimp thing thats a whole other argument.. But look at our best friends? Dogs!!!

No one on here can argue that dogs are different. They are different breeds.. And yes i know there is a difference between breed and species.. But imo not much. A great dane and a tea cup poodle are as close as a burm and a ball. In theory... And yet we interbreed dogs everyday.. A puggle..pug and a beagle... I dont see the harm in it.. Also a mule?? The offspring of a horse and a donkey.. I could go on..

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This is just wrong. A dog is a dog is a dog. Breading a great dane and a tea cup poodle is like breeding the biggest human to the smallest human. A mule is two different species just like breeding a burm to a ball. Mules are infertile so there is much less of an issue there. Get your facts straight before you chime in.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Dogs are a great one too. Where did they come from in the first place?

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Dogs are a result of selectively breeding wolves. Great example of speciation.

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Originally Posted by Simplex

I think this shows why hybrids are a good thing.. We could go round and round for ever and theres no one right amswer. But new blood is a good thing.. Those superballs may be a whole new thing kept within themselves... Or not.. Could go a few ways.. But i dont see them going away

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This is just wrong. New blood within a species is fine. You just can't compare hybrids to line breeding or dogs breeds or anything else. If we need new blood to keep the gene pool large enough to reduce genetic defects we would go to Africa and get a wild caught Ball Python not a Blood Python. I happen to like hybrids but they are scary because their offspring must be tracked in order to keep the integrity that the hobby has.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

I think you two will find this earth shattering, then: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/sc...998951&ei=5070

Anyways. I think that super ball is quite interesting looking. Absolutely love the pattern.

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OH BOY!!

not earth shattering if you knew anything about hominid evolution. hominid does not equal human!!! they are speaking of the split between bipedal hominids and chimps which are pseudo-quadrapedial. they use the word human to describe this group.

"The split between the human and chimpanzee lineages, a pivotal event in human evolution, may have occurred millions of years later than fossil bones suggest, and the break may not have been as clean as humans might like."

LINEAGES

"The suggestion of a hybridization has startled paleoanthropologists, who nonetheless are treating the new genetic data seriously. The earliest human-lineage fossil remains, like Sahelanthropus, seem clearly to have been bipeds, walking on two feet, but the ancestors of chimps presumably walked on their two feet and the knuckles of their hands, as do modern chimps."

"If the earliest hominids are bipedal, it's hard to think of them interbreeding with the knuckle-walking chimps — it's not what we had in mind," said Daniel E. Lieberman, a biological anthropologist at Harvard."

notice he didn't say HUMAN.

this is why so many people don't get evolution and why so many are against it. we DID NOT come from chimps. we came from hominids that split off of chimps about 5.4 MYA, according to these new findings.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

This is just wrong. A dog is a dog is a dog. Breading a great dane and a tea cup poodle is like breeding the biggest human to the smallest human. A mule is two different species just like breeding a burm to a ball. Mules are infertile so there is much less of an issue there. Get your facts straight before you chime in.

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I have an opinion regardless and ill chime in with whatever i feel like.. Didnt realize this was a scientific accedemia level discussion. Regardless.. Were all just a bunch of joes with formed opinions.

And sorry but i dont agree with a great dane and a tea cup poodle being the same.. They are an entirly different breed. They are not the same.

A big man and a small woman is different.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Dogs are a result of selectively breeding wolves. Great example of speciation.

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Let me go a different way then. What about hybridization of canids? That is done frequently and fairly commom among WILD populations. I dont see an issue taking a simmilar species of snake and hybridizing it in captivity when it can and does happen in the wild.

i like hybrids,,, or maby i should say the thought of hybrids.. take what im about to say with a grain of salt, but (just in my opinion) even if you had a ball python with blood python "blood" in it,,, and it had every visual aperience of a ball python,, what would it mater? as far as i know, there is no AKC, ur UKC in snakes that tracks lienage. even if there was, even that can be munipulated. how does one TRULY know that they dont have a hybrid in their colection right now???????
maby im just simple, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck,,, and looks like a duck, then chances are,, its a duck... even if there was a one nite stand with a pigeon. :D
just my thoughts
spooky

im not too fond of hybrids personally, but one that i saw a while ago was interesting, the "burmball" femae burmese and male ball. never thought that could happen because of size issues, but apparently the guy was breeding two burmese, and he threw a ball in the enclsure cause he was out of space, and them the burmball came. it was interesting though, an eight foot ball python lol

heres a link to it: http://youtu.be/S-TXm3SDwsM

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Originally Posted by Simplex

I have an opinion regardless and ill chime in with whatever i feel like.. Didnt realize this was a scientific accedemia level discussion. Regardless.. Were all just a bunch of joes with formed opinions.

And sorry but i dont agree with a great dane and a tea cup poodle being the same.. They are an entirly different breed. They are not the same.

A big man and a small woman is different.

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Well I am sorry but you are wrong. Breed is just another term for line bred to the point of looking very different. This is no different than what we would call races in humans. Asians can breed with Europeans can breed with Africans. They may look different but they are the same species.

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Originally Posted by Simplex

Let me go a different way then. What about hybridization of canids? That is done frequently and fairly commom among WILD populations. I dont see an issue taking a simmilar species of snake and hybridizing it in captivity when it can and does happen in the wild.

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I am not sure if you got the idea that I am against hybrids. I am not particularly against them. I was merely clarifying a few points. What about the hybridization of canids? I don't have an issue with anything in this post other than the confusion over what actually constitutes a hybrid. A hybrid has to be the result of the breeding of two different species. Dogs are all one species. A wolf x dog would result in a hybrid. A Great Dane X Teacup Puddle would not.

In 1993 dogs were reclassified genetically as a subspecies of the grey wolf. They now fall under Canis Lupus. So technically wolf dogs are not even hybrids anymore. Depending on which science circle you're in, but they are not plants so...

http://www2.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm

"A wolfdog is a cross between a gray wolf and a dog--what some refer to as a wolf hybrid. The term "hybrid", however, is used differently in the various scientific disciplines. For example, in horticulture, hybrids are formed by humans as crosses of different 'types' of plants; the term is used equally for crosses both among and within species. Conversely, in evolutionary biology, the term "hybrid" is used almost exclusively to describe offspring arising from a naturally-occurring cross between two separate and genetically distinct species.

(“The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence....
In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.”)

So one might recognize the potential for confusion arising from the use of the word "hybrid" when applied to a wolf/dog cross. It is more appropriate to refer to these animals as wolfdogs.

In 1993, the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists reclassified the dog from its separate species designation of Canis familiaris to Canis lupus familiaris. So, now, the Timber wolf (Canis lupus nubilus), the Mackenzie or Tundra wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis), the dog (Canis lupus familiaris ), etc., fall under the genetic umbrella of the gray wolf: Canis lupus."

I love how intense this post has become....:)

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Hate hybrids such as this...


20 years from now many of us will have a Ball (or blood) in your collection that isn't 100% pure because of this. No matter how careful you think you are...it'll become difficult to trace lineage of new animals as these Super Balls are bred back to balls (or Bloods) of...F3...F4...and so on.

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This. If people can leave a hybrid alone without breeding it again five but snakes have long lives with no guarantees

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

In 1993 dogs were reclassified genetically as a subspecies of the grey wolf. They now fall under Canis Lupus. So technically wolf dogs are not even hybrids anymore. Depending on which science circle you're in, but they are not plants so...

http://www2.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm

"A wolfdog is a cross between a gray wolf and a dog--what some refer to as a wolf hybrid. The term "hybrid", however, is used differently in the various scientific disciplines. For example, in horticulture, hybrids are formed by humans as crosses of different 'types' of plants; the term is used equally for crosses both among and within species. Conversely, in evolutionary biology, the term "hybrid" is used almost exclusively to describe offspring arising from a naturally-occurring cross between two separate and genetically distinct species.

(“The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence....
In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.”)

So one might recognize the potential for confusion arising from the use of the word "hybrid" when applied to a wolf/dog cross. It is more appropriate to refer to these animals as wolfdogs.

In 1993, the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists reclassified the dog from its separate species designation of Canis familiaris to Canis lupus familiaris. So, now, the Timber wolf (Canis lupus nubilus), the Mackenzie or Tundra wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis), the dog (Canis lupus familiaris ), etc., fall under the genetic umbrella of the gray wolf: Canis lupus."

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Sure but end of the day I would still call a wolf/dog a hybrid and not a great dane x black lab. At the end of the day speciation is far from black and white. Although earlier I pointed out that often times hybrids are infertile we can hardly use fertility of the resulting offspring as a rule as infertility goes down gradually as the component species become more disperate. I think its really a matter of opinion at this level. Are wolfdogs a hybrid? I would answer the question with another question. Is a carpondro a hybrid? Its a green tree python (morelia viridis) crossed with a carpet (morelia spilota). What about a coastal carpet (Morelia spilota mcdowelli) crossed with a jungle carpet (Morelia spilota cheynei). Personally I consider them all to be hybrids and I would like to see their lines protected as much as we can so that people know what they are breeding so they can pass the information on. Many would call a carpondro a hybrid and not a coastal x jungle. I am guessing Foschi Exotic Serpents falls in that category. I have heard the argument that carpondros aren't hybrids and based on some definitions I wouldn't put up much of a fight.