WhyDoPetstoresCarryHeatRocks?

Heat rocks are really bad. I don't get why the petstore sells them.

Heat rocks are okay for some other species I believe, just not for snakes.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

Heat rocks are okay for some other species I believe, just not for snakes.

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x2 mainly lizards from what i have seen/heard.

I have no idea why they carry them, but at least at the one where I work we don't actually sell them! Whenever we see someone looking at them we go over, explain the risks, and suggest an UTH or heat lamp instead (depending on species). We actually sell heat rocks so rarely that our stock of them is literally covered in a thick layer of dust :P

Good for lizards.

Once you cut the cord off of them, they're perfect basking rocks. ;P
I just read a few articles. They are apparently not suitable for any species that I could find. They are not a proper source of primary or secondary heat and are the cause of most burns(that and any other source of heat the reptile can sit on that is not controlled by a thermostat)
I wouldn't use them for any of my herps, future or present.

They sell them to make money off of inexperienced reptile keepers.

It is an ignorant product, but one well entrenched in the reptile pet world.

I don't know of any setup/species where they would be appropriate.

But pet stores are not hobbyists stores, or breeder stores, they are pet stores, and they carry many lowest common denominator products that appeal to folks shopping for disposable reptiles. Many of the products are terrible choices, ignorant choices, or cheap imitations of actual good products.

Yeah, I wouldn't even use one for a uromastyx and they can tollerate some serious heat.

Heat rocks are a neat idea, but unless they are properly controlled, they are of no use other than to scam new herpers.

I agree those aren't appropriate for ANY species. They carry them bc they can Sell them to any unsuspecting poor customer. Anything that makes cash in a Petstore is there solely to make cash.


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Originally Posted by TheWinWizard

Good for lizards.

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Good for what lizards? I certainly would not let my leopard gecko get near one. *Maybe* if it was hooked up to a Helix or Herpstat, but at that point, why not just get a proper heat source?

But the question is, what is proper? Heat lamps/ceramics can suck out too much moisture, UTH like heat rocks get far too hot to be used without a thermostat, and heat tape has it's critics who say that it doesn't provide belly heat.

I too have read somewhere that they're acceptable for some species of lizard.
Out of curiosity: why couldn't they be an acceptable secondary heat source if controlled by a thermostat? I haven't really read much about them I just know not to use them.

I don't use heat rocks - never have.

However, I have never met, spoken to or even "conversed" on line with an individual who has injured or severely burned an animal on one.

Nor have I met a person who has recorded the temperature of one of these units of death (other than myself - I was curious and shelled out $12 for one a couple of years ago and shot the surface temps.)

While I'm not advocating their use, I'd love to "hear" from one person who has burned a reptile with one or at least shot the temp of one.

Or is this like the thousands of people who have lost their entire collections to the insidious and deadly pine bedding?

Or the scores of herp keepers who have witnessed ball python cannibalism first hand?

Or the mass of hobbyists who have evidence that heat lamps are horrible?

Or better yet the Mensas who have all the facts and figures showing how you can't keep a snake in a aquarium?

What I have seen is quite a few animals horribly burned by wrapping themselves around unscreened lamps and CHEs. I've also seen burns caused by uncontrolled belly heating tapes and pads. That I can attest to.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I don't use heat rocks - never have.

However, I have never met, spoken to or even "conversed" on line with an individual who has injured or severely burned an animal on one.

Nor have I met a person who has recorded the temperature of one of these units of death (other than myself - I was curious and shelled out $12 for one a couple of years ago and shot the surface temps.)

While I'm not advocating their use, I'd love to "hear" from one person who has burned a reptile with one or at least shot the temp of one.

Or is this like the thousands of people who have lost their entire collections to the insidious and deadly pine bedding?

Or the scores of herp keepers who have witnessed ball python cannibalism first hand?

Or the mass of hobbyists who have evidence that heat lamps are horrible?

Or better yet the Mensas who have all the facts and figures showing how you can't keep a snake in a aquarium?

What I have seen is quite a few animals horribly burned by wrapping themselves around unscreened lamps and CHEs. I've also seen burns caused by uncontrolled belly heating tapes and pads. That I can attest to.

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Well, I can say that neither heat lamps nor aquariums are evil. I have my cornsnake in an aquarium and I use a heat lamp on her. She's thriving quite well.

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While I'm not advocating their use, I'd love to "hear" from one person who has burned a reptile with one or at least shot the temp of one.

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When I was a very little girl I had an Eastern Hognose. The internet isn't what it is today (I'm young enough that it existed, but just barely) and there weren't many resources available about proper husbandry. We kept the snake in a 10 or 20 gallon (don't remember which) with a heat rock. Usually we were able to turn the rock off every night, but one night my mother got very ill while we were at her friend's home and we couldn't get back to turn off the rock for two or three days.

We came home to a cooked snake, curled up basically fried on the rock.

We talked to the guy at the local small pet store and he told us that he'd heard of that happening before, but not often. I was only five years old and was so upset about my dead snake that I didn't talk to my mother for over a month.

So from personal experience, I strongly recommend against ever using a heat rock for any species.

I had one back with my first beardy back in 1992-97. It was the upgraded model with a rheostat built into the cord. I set it so it was warm to the touch and never had a problem with it. But with my snakes I won't use one they don't need it and there are way better, safer ways to heat.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Well, I can say that neither heat lamps nor aquariums are evil. I have my cornsnake in an aquarium and I use a heat lamp on her. She's thriving quite well.

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I use pine.

I've used heat lamps.

And back in the roaring 70s and 80s all my snakies were kept in aquariums.

But many people today tell me that those things are the hallmark of a bad keeper.

Just saying.......

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Originally Posted by flyingsqueak

When I was a very little girl I had an Eastern Hognose. The internet isn't what it is today (I'm young enough that it existed, but just barely) and there weren't many resources available about proper husbandry. We kept the snake in a 10 or 20 gallon (don't remember which) with a heat rock. Usually we were able to turn the rock off every night, but one night my mother got very ill while we were at her friend's home and we couldn't get back to turn off the rock for two or three days.

We came home to a cooked snake, curled up basically fried on the rock.

We talked to the guy at the local small pet store and he told us that he'd heard of that happening before, but not often. I was only five years old and was so upset about my dead snake that I didn't talk to my mother for over a month.

So from personal experience, I strongly recommend against ever using a heat rock for any species.

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1 story verifying that heat rocks can kill. While I have never kept an eastern hognose I have kept westerns and I have also seen westerns and mexicans basking in the field. A discussion I had with a friend confirmed what I have personally witnessed - heterdon nasicus will bask on rocks/ground where the surface temp of the basking site is in the neighborhood of 100 degrees.

So in order for your eastern to have literally gotten fried, that heat rock must have been incredibly, dangerously, hot.

Still need more ghastly tales of gross bodily harm before they even make a tiny dent into what I've personally seen with other heating sources.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not a user or a fan of the heat rock.

FWIW the one I bought out of curiosity peaked at 101 degrees.

The surface of my radiant heat panels get higher than that. Still not enough to cook a snake. When I owned monitors the surface temps they used to bask at were about 40 degrees higher or more.

Got a couple of e-mails from people who have used their heat guns on heat rocks and haven't seen one yet hot enough to cook a reptile.

I once had a young pseustes that managed to find a way (in a Vision cage) to lodge herself on top of a Pro-Products radiant heat panel.

She'd spend a lot of time in there. Sometimes the temp on the top side of that panel registered over 100 degrees and she never got a burn.

Keep those horror stories coming.

I use a heat lamp and a aquarium. nothing wrong with that. but i dont use the heat lamp by itself i have a UTH. additionally aquariums are just fine just not space efficient nor good for humidity so extra care is needed.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

While I'm not advocating their use, I'd love to "hear" from one person who has burned a reptile with one or at least shot the temp of one.

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I had a bearded dragon that got impacted. The vet recommended putting him in a critter keeper with a heat source and to watch him closely. We put him in a critter keeper and because we couldn't use heat lamps (melt the plastic) and I didn't have a UTH, we used a heat rock we had bought but then never used because I had heard not to use it. Well my lizard could barely walk but he was able to get on that thing for heat. He ended up with burns on his belly. He didn't live long after that due to the impaction but I did witness burns.

I work in a Petsmart and I will steer people away from heat rocks every time I see someone looking at them.

And its not a matter of the temperature getting hot enough to literally COOK a reptile. People have experienced temperatures in their racks reach a little over 100 and their snakes suffered damage due to high temperatures or so I have read. If you put one on a thermostat or rheostat, then like a UTH, it can be safe, but MOST people walking into a pet store for their first reptile are not going to think of that because they haven't done all the research. They haven't talked with hobbyists about how to properly keep their new reptile. I have actually had to step in and correct my department manager because she was recommending the wrong kind of bulb or wasn't recommending UVB lighting for bearded dragons.

And I'd say over half the people wanting to come into the store to buy a bearded dragon don't want to spend $15-25 on a UTH, and then another $20 on a rheostat when they can just spend $20 on a heat rock. Why spend $12 on a good basking bulb for your new bearded dragon when you can spend $8 on this cool blue light instead. :mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by tcutting

I use a heat lamp and a aquarium. nothing wrong with that. but i dont use the heat lamp by itself i have a UTH. additionally aquariums are just fine just not space efficient nor good for humidity so extra care is needed.

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I fondly remember the days when heat lamps and glass aquariums were cadillac set ups.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I fondly remember the days when heat lamps and glass aquariums were cadillac set ups.

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I think the reason they were is because they are more showcase like then tubs.. or standard racks. But like i said, they require more attention because of the big open top for controling humidiy. Other than that, i see no issues with them.

However I sense that soon i will be moving towards a rack setup because i have a few new wants, and caging is far cheaper with tubs/racks.

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Originally Posted by tcutting

I think the reason they were is because they are more showcase like then tubs.. or standard racks. But like i said, they require more attention because of the big open top for controling humidiy. Other than that, i see no issues with them.

However I sense that soon i will be moving towards a rack setup because i have a few new wants, and caging is far cheaper with tubs/racks.

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No the reason they were is because all this other stuff wasn't available.

Getting back to heat rocks, the biggest issues are that (1) they are used without temperature regulation and (2) they - and other sources of belly heat - often confuse animals that need higher ambient temps and/or bask to regulate body heat.

In other words, an animal adapted to using radiant heat from the sun and being bathed in heat is not physiologically adapted to receiving thermoregulation from a single small source on it's belly and rapidly losing it to the cooler ambient air above it.

We've had this discussion before. A hot spot is for replicating in captivity a method for the animal to raise it's body temperature to it's desired core level. The ambient is roughly the core temperature of the captive animal and the cool end gives the animal an area to lower it's core temp if it gets too hot.

People who keep a coachwhip, for example, on belly heat with an ambient that is too low will subject their snake to a couple of things that could cause it to become stressed and injured.

First, coachwhips bask at extremely high temperatures and are heliotherms. You can find them basking out in the open on rocks where the temps are well over 100 degrees. If you put it on a small UTH set at 100 degrees it runs the chance of burning itself.

What? How can that be?

Well beacuse that poor animal is going to have a heck of a time ever reaching it's target temperature. You are forcing it to receive heat in a way it was not biologically designed (belly heat/convection) when it is programmed to be bathed for a relatively short period of time from above in intense radiant heat. It is now being forced to stay in contact for an unnatural amount of time on it's ventral surface in an effort to maintain it's core temp. In other words it's basking too long on a part of it's body that was not meant to be in contact for a lengthy amount of time to a hot surface.

How do I know? I used to breed coachwhips. While I gave out husbandry sheets to new buyers, people used to try to keep them too cold and heat them from below like they would a ball-python. I saw a lot of these animals getting thermal burns/irritation from relatively low belly heat temps because they were forced to sit for unnaturally long time periods on UTHs.

In a similar manner a bearded dragon (which is a heliotherm and thermoregulates by immersing it's body both from overhead heat from the sun and by convection from heated surfaces) will stay in contact for an unnatural amount of time with only a belly heat source. It's taking in heat from convection on it's belly and losing heat to the ambient air above it. It's forced to take heat from a relatively small source in a way that's thermally inefficient and confusing. Hence it stays in contact with the belly heat too long because it can never satisfy it's biological heating needs. Dragons are not as efficient at feeling localized temps but rather take their input from both dorsal and ventral sources.

Hot rocks are a crappy way of heating any reptile. But I still maintain that for every one real hot rock horror story, I can produce many more heat lamp and belly heat accidents.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

No the reason they were is because all this other stuff wasn't available.

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thats a good point. but then again i wasnt around "back in the day" when that was the only option...

and damn good info in the rest of that post.

I agree that any heat source can and will be dangerous without proper equipment. That's why I find it crazy that Petstores carry heat rocks, lamps, pads, sometimes a crummy rheostat, but no thermostat. All of these things should always be sold in conjunction with a thermostat.
All of these issues that come from folks having problems with their pets really are because they didn't do the proper research. I'm sure if the people buying the coachwhips a. Listened to the breeder, or b. Read a good informational book, or c. Researched online they would have figured out the proper way to care for them. Or they shouldn't have gotten one in the first place. Same with the beardies. I see it all the time with my baby beards so I prevent against it as much as possible.
Just saying it's more over laziness, stupidity, or cheapness that kills or injures these animals.


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But thats the thing. While WE are hobbyists who love our reptiles and will get them the proper set ups and equipment, MOST people out there just want a cheap, cool pet they can show off to their friends. And they don't want to dish out hundreds of dollars to do it. I have countless customers coming into the store wanting a bearded dragon. Often enough they want to be able to purchase the dragon and all the enclosure's equipment for less than $100. This isn't really possible and they get all bent out of shape when you start telling them they will need all these special lights and heating elements.

Should pet stores carry thermostats. Heck yea. Will they, probably not. Without thermostats, heating elements burn out easy and malfunction. This makes the customer need to come back and buy a new one. (Just my opinion on the subject). Not to mention, the average customer doesn't want to have to buy yet another piece of equipment for their lizard. Once, I was going over all the things a lady would need for a chinese water dragon. When she added up the cost of the enclosure, lights, heating, bedding, thermometers, etc, she looked at me and said "But the lizard is only $30. Why do I have to buy all this stuff for it?" People don't want to pay more money for a cheap pet. WE do because we understand what these animals are and what they need. But we are hobbyists, not casual keepers that think of reptiles as disposable pets.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I use pine.

I've used heat lamps.

And back in the roaring 70s and 80s all my snakies were kept in aquariums.

But many people today tell me that those things are the hallmark of a bad keeper.

Just saying.......

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I used aquaria for my snakes way back when. My snakes bred and did fine except for the occasional funky shed. The ones in my rack do fine and shed better, so that is what they are kept in. I think that I could provide very good conditions for a snake in a tank if I tinkered around, but I'm lazy and the rack is so darn much easier. The snakes do great, so all is well in my little corner of the world.

I haven't had a heat rock short out on me and in the late 70s-early 80's I used them. What made me opt for Flexwatt is that a member of the herp society I belonged to brought in a heat rock that had burned up and we got in a few rescue snakes with burns from folks who kept them on heat rocks--sans any temp control, of course. The obligatory messed up green iguana too.

Currently I use Flexwatt for heating. I find that it's easy to use and does the job. My system is on a thermostat and I get good temp control.

I've never used a heat emitter inside of a cage. I can't give you any personal experience. I tried a heat lamp on the screen way back when and it didn't keep the temps where I wanted them. It might have been the old analog stick-on-the-glass thermometer wasn't accurate, but that was what was available. I have a nifty little point and read number now, and boy, don't I love technology.

I do think that most folks who use a heat rock aren't going to have a burnt reptile. I do think that there is a possibility there and that I feel safer and love the degree of control I get with Flexwatt and a thermostat. Years back I used a dimmer switch to control the heat and fiddled around to get it where I wanted it. I didn't have any burnt snakes, but I also think that thermostats are a wonderful thing and I'm glad that I have one now.

I think one of the most misunderstood pieces of reptile husbandry is the undertank heater.

It's often blindly recommended as the best and safest source for heat.

But is does virtually nothing for ambient temps.

In my other posts in this thread I've kinda danced around this but I'll just come out and say it:

If you hook a piece of flexwatt up to a proportional thermostat and set it to 94 degrees in a tank or a tub where the ambient temp is too low, you are running just as big a risk as the poor schlub who stuffs a hot rock in the tank.

In order to maintain it's POTZ, that animal is going to have to spend the majority of it's time on that hot spot. Believe me - a snake is not going to get a thermal burn quickly thermoregulating on a 100 degree hot rock - just like a varanid will not suffer thermal burns basking with a proper flood light setup.

It will get a thermal burn having to park it's butt on a 94 degree UTH because it's forced to thermoregulate inefficiently and is being kept at suboptimal ambient temps.

Again, a 100 degree hot rock can only cause a thermal burn if the animal is forced to stay on it for an extended period of time. An animal is forced to spend dangerous amounts of time on contact heating devices because the keeper is not providing the proper husbandry. Yes the hot rock is a crude tool and is not recommended, but they don't just magicially burn reptiles.

That risk exists with any UTH, heating pad or similar device. That's why it is so darn irresponsible to blindly recommend under-belly heat without taking into consideration the ambient temp of the enclosure or the type of animal. Most diurnal animals benefit much more from a combination of radiant and convection heat. Contrary to popular opinion, BPs do not need belly heat to digest food. They need to maintain a POTZ. In order to do that they need a an ambient temp in the middle of that zone, a hot spot to heat up and a cool area to cool down.

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When she added up the cost of the enclosure, lights, heating, bedding, thermometers, etc, she looked at me and said "But the lizard is only $30

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^--- That's what bugs me most about some people.
I see every pet I buy as priceless. My bearded dragon was $50. I paid probably around $200 for the rest of his equipment that day(With a little help from mom) and spent more money than I would have liked to on his food and UVB lamps every six months. But I got a pet that needed that, so I'm going to make sure he's the healthiest and happiest he could be.
I bought a sick Bearded Dragon from a bad petstore for $75. I knew she was sick and I wanted to get her out of there.
My sister and I spent over $200 on just fecals and medicine to get her healthy. Last fecal the vet told me that she probably just has a natuarlly high count of coccidia..(We did 3 or 4 doses of medicine and I gave her Reptaid for a while. She should have been cleared of the coccidia, but it was still at a 4 count. She seemed happy enough)

And I'm planning on getting a BP hopefully in January. I've calculated that I'll need maybe $100 dollars +/- for the set up not counting the snake which would be nice if I could get for $20.(I just want a normal male)
And I'll take him to the vet if there is anything wrong, whereas someone like that lady who didn't want to care properly for that WD, if her $20 snake got sick and died, I'm sure that she'd just go out and buy another one.

Now, back on subject and off rant.... I figured not to use a heat pad or heat rock with a bearded dragon because I read or was told(I don't remember) that the dragons have less heat-sensing feeling on their bellys so if they're sitting there and getting burned, they barely know because they can't feel it. They feel heat from above, therefor, it's easy for them to get burned if you don't have a rheostat or a thermostat paired with it.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I think one of the most misunderstood pieces of reptile husbandry is the undertank heater.

It's often blindly recommended as the best and safest source for heat.

But is does virtually nothing for ambient temps.

In my other posts in this thread I've kinda danced around this but I'll just come out and say it:

If you hook a piece of flexwatt up to a proportional thermostat and set it to 94 degrees in a tank or a tub where the ambient temp is too low, you are running just as big a risk as the poor schlub who stuffs a hot rock in the tank.

In order to maintain it's POTZ, that animal is going to have to spend the majority of it's time on that hot spot. Believe me - a snake is not going to get a thermal burn quickly thermoregulating on a 100 degree hot rock - just like a varanid will not suffer thermal burns basking with a proper flood light setup.

It will get a thermal burn having to park it's butt on a 94 degree UTH because it's forced to thermoregulate inefficiently and is being kept at suboptimal ambient temps.

Again, a 100 degree hot rock can only cause a thermal burn if the animal is forced to stay on it for an extended period of time. An animal is forced to spend dangerous amounts of time on contact heating devices because the keeper is not providing the proper husbandry. Yes the hot rock is a crude tool and is not recommended, but they don't just magicially burn reptiles.

That risk exists with any UTH, heating pad or similar device. That's why it is so darn irresponsible to blindly recommend under-belly heat without taking into consideration the ambient temp of the enclosure or the type of animal. Most diurnal animals benefit much more from a combination of radiant and convection heat. Contrary to popular opinion, BPs do not need belly heat to digest food. They need to maintain a POTZ. In order to do that they need a an ambient temp in the middle of that zone, a hot spot to heat up and a cool area to cool down.

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I agree 100% couldn't have said it better. Proper ambient temps have to be maintained in order to keep a healthy reptile. People always wonder why their snakes get ri if their hotspots are set at 93. It's because the ambient temp is 70.

Something I've done is a UTH and a heat lamp all on one side. Snake'll hang out on that side for a bit before wandering over to the middle/cool side.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Something I've done is a UTH and a heat lamp all on one side. Snake'll hang out on that side for a bit before wandering over to the middle/cool side.

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I'm set up the same way. I just use an incandescent bulb.
And its on a timer so I get a slight night drop.

The argument I hear about hot rocks is "if it fails and overheats it can kill your snake"
Well this goes for most heating items. I have a friend in our Herp society that lost a sand boa from a failing UTH, it shorted out, overheated, so bad that it didn't just cook her snake, the bottom of her viv shattered.
Thermostats can fail, dimmers can fail, UTH can fail, lights can shatter.
You just need to watch your setup, check all your equipment every time you do a full cleaning, and understand bad things happen there will be horror stories. Using quality equipment helps but really, everything will wear out, or possibly fail.

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Originally Posted by Maixx

I'm set up the same way. I just use an incandescent bulb.
And its on a timer so I get a slight night drop.

The argument I hear about hot rocks is "if it fails and overheats it can kill your snake"
Well this goes for most heating items. I have a friend in our Herp society that lost a sand boa from a failing UTH, it shorted out, overheated, so bad that it didn't just cook her snake, the bottom of her viv shattered.
Thermostats can fail, dimmers can fail, UTH can fail, lights can shatter.
You just need to watch your setup, check all your equipment overtime you do a full cleaning, and understand bad things happen there will be horror stories. Using quality equipment helps but really, everything will wear out, or possibly fail.

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I don't have a regulator or anything on my UTH. It's not attached to the tank (they're both sitting on the floor right now since I haven't gotten the rest of my set up moved over), but the UTH can get up to 118. I've used it for the near two years I've owned the snake without any issues. No burns or anything. On the other hand, it's a 5 gal size UTH on on end of a 30 gal long (even when she was in the 10 gal I didn't have problems). I do need to get the one end of the tank propped up slightly for air flow, though.

I kept Green Anoles for about 12 years (Not the same colony, obviously, but I really love the little buggers). My first male had to have both his front feet amputated due to burns from a heat rock. He lived another 3 years, but I have never used them since with any of my pets. For a $7 lizard, I spent well over $300 on his surgery and meds, not to mention set up, UV lamps, basking lamps, etc.