Need some help plz

I have tried breeding my female cinnamon with my het pied male, this will be my first attempt at breeding my pythons. I have studied and taken every step I can to make it work. I had a friend come look at my female and tell me yes she looks pregnant, with a ridge down her back and bulging but its now late june and she hasn't laid her eggs yet? is this a sign she is egg bound? do I need to give her a better area in the tank to lay her eggs ins? right now she has a giant hide that she fits under I was told that should be enough cover for her to lay under. Is it because her mate is housed in the same tank as her? cause the tank is Huge and they lay wrapped around each other all the time when they could easily get away from each other in separate hides if they really wanted to. Or is it common for them to be this late in the season?

What is your husbandry like?
It is recommended that they be housed seperately.
Can you post pics?



btw Welcome to BP.net :)

It sounds like she is stressed by the fact the male is in with her. Even if they had a whole acre of space to get away from each other, if that particular spot is a favored spot, they will "cuddle" (which is actually them fighting over the spot). Remove him from the tank and she might calm down enough to lay her eggs. ((It is best to keep ball pythons in separate enclosures anyway unless you are breeding. Once the female ovulates and becomes gravid, there is no reason to keep the male in with her and he should be removed to his own enclosure))

And it might be very possible that she isn't gravid at all. Pictures of the set up and her would help us give you better advice.

Id also like to know did you feel her building follicles? See an ovulation? When was her last shed?

Also, you should not be housing the pair together 24/7. While it is ok for short breeding visits, it can be stressful on your animals (who are not natually social animals) over long periods of time. The curled up together when not showing an interest in breeding is usually I sign of competition for what they consider the best "spot". If I were you Id move the male out asap (moving the female will not help your breeding efforts) and only introduce him for a few days at a time if you think she didnt take yet.

Thank you guys very much, it seems I given wrong information, I was told that balls liked to be housed together and that to keep them separate was just ppl being overly cautious. since I do not have 2 separate enclosures for them each I am going to work on getting them each a tank, I am working on a deal to trade their XL tank for 2 smaller ones once I have them set up I will get some pics on here and hopefully you will be able to tell me more. and I didn't catch her ovulating since it is my first attempt at this and I am at work all day I just trusted in her to do her thing and figured since he is always with her that when it was time they would both know, sad thing is that local breeders were telling me to let them just handle themselves they have done it in nature this long they really don't need my help other then keeping their environment clean and proper temps and lighting. I even spent alot of money on the plug in timers for their lights and heaters. I am now counting my blessings that I found this site you guys are amazing Thanks!!!!

It is best if you house them separate tanks aren't the best way to house balls in my opinion they are hard to hold humidity expecially if lights are used as a heat but as long as your husbandry is right once she's is ready she will lay I watch one of my females ovulate but held onto her eggs for a long time befor laying which could have been since she laid 9 but make sure you have a incubator set up awhile befor she lays just so you can make sure you work out all the bugs in it and welcome to Bp.net if you need anything don't hesitate to ask!

Do you keep notes on her shed cycles? When was her last shed?

I used Markus Jayne's breeding webpage as a resource when I started out and thought it was great. :)
http://www.ballpython.ca/gallery/breeding.html

Hope you get the housing situation sorted out soon and good luck with them! :gj:

Ok so I was able to get her a 40 gal. breeder tank and have him in a 20long. now question is do you just need random pics of her? or is there specific shots I should take to help you guys get a good look at her?

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Originally Posted by Tori Witschger

Ok so I was able to get her a 40 gal. breeder tank and have him in a 20long. now question is do you just need random pics of her? or is there specific shots I should take to help you guys get a good look at her?

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take a few aerial shots looking down at her and then a couple shots from the side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

OK these are the images of crossing my fingers is my gravid BP are these pics good enough to be able to tell for sure if she is infact Gravid????



http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0612.jpg


http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0611.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0610.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0609.jpg

Well I can tell you without a doubt that is not a cinnamon.

Other than that she appears gravid, or at least building. Has she been that thick for a while now, or has that just sprung up recently?

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-multiple-BP-s

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Well I can tell you without a doubt that is not a cinnamon.

Other than that she appears gravid, or at least building. Has she been that thick for a while now, or has that just sprung up recently?

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See I was told she is the product of a cinnamon and a reduced pattern on her other side she does has a few flames and the black spots on her brown patches are missing cause of the reduced pattern :s I was inclined to believe the breeder since he does his own snakes and he practically gave her away because she was not what he wanted for his breeding projects since she didn't look pure cinnamon and all his snakes are high high quality. what do you think she looks like?? maybe I should take pics of her other side and show you her flame markings even if she isn't a cinnamon I love her :) as far as her size she has been that thick for a few months but its hard to determine just how fast it came about I don't get to spend a ton of time with them everyday. My male makes her look tiny :P

He probably gave her away because she is a normal. No breeder would give away a cinni for nothing....

She does have a lovely reduced pattern though :)

Cinnamon is a co-dominant gene, so cinnamons can produce both cinnamons and normals, which is what yours is, a normal. She is indeed a reduced pattern but unfortunately not even low quality, reduced pattern cinnamons look like that, and even low quality cinnies are not given away (at least not by people who know what they have). She is a very pretty normal girl, but all you are going to get from that breeding is normals that have a 50% chance of carrying the pied gene. (And to be honest, if you got that het pied from your breeder friend, I'd be skeptical of his genetics too).

I have plenty of normals with flames.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Cinnamon is a co-dominant gene, so cinnamons can produce both cinnamons and normals, which is what yours is, a normal. She is indeed a reduced pattern but unfortunately not even low quality, reduced pattern cinnamons look like that, and even low quality cinnies are not given away (at least not by people who know what they have). She is a very pretty normal girl, but all you are going to get from that breeding is normals that have a 50% chance of carrying the pied gene. (And to be honest, if you got that het pied from your breeder friend, I'd be skeptical of his genetics too).

I have plenty of normals with flames.

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Is there like DNA tests that can be done to prove or disprove their hets?? I am gonna put pics of my male up too maybe you can tell me what you think of him also so if she is a reduced pattern that may carry the cinny gene and my male is het pied what do you think the baby's will come out to be?

Ok these are of my male Sang-rial and what I was told were great markers for showing his het pied what do you guys think??

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0615.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0614.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0616.jpg

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSCN0617.jpg

She does not carry the cinnamon gene. The cinnamon gene is a co-dominant gene. IF a snake has the gene, that snake will display the color and pattern associated with that gene. It will look like a cinnamon. If the snake does not have the gene, the snake will not display the color and pattern. Your snake does not display the color and pattern associated with the cinnamon gene, therefore she is a normal. She is either a cinnamon or she's not, there is no carrying. The only normal snakes that "carry" genes is if it is a recessive gene. A snake that carries a single recessive gene will still look normal. If the snake carries two copies of that same gene, then it shows up as that morph. Co dominants have one copy of the gene and that one copy shows up as a morph. Take your het pied for example. If he is indeed a het pied (which you won't know unless you breed him to a het pied or pied female) then he carries a single pied gene. Two pied genes are required to make an animal look like a pied. So he "carries" the pied gene since it is recessive. Your normal female doesn't "carry" the cinnamon gene because that gene only requires one copy of the gene to express itself. Am I making sense? I can try to explain it better.

And no, there is currently not a DNA test for snakes to determine what genes they carry. The only way to find out is to breed them. For your male you'd have to breed him to a het pied or pied female (and then each resulting egg has a 25% chance of hatching out a pied).

For your female, she'll always produce normals (she doesn't carry any morph genes, so she will always give a normal gene to her offspring.) If you pair her up with morph males (that carry either dominant or co-dominant genes) then she could produce morphs, but she will always give a normal gene, never anything else. The male would be responsible for giving the gene that produces the morph offspring.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

He probably gave her away because she is a normal. No breeder would give away a cinni for nothing....

She does have a lovely reduced pattern though :)

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Just so its clear when I mean I paid practically nothing.. out here most normals go for $75-$100 I got her in a trade for a old baby playpen that was worth probably like $45-$55 and Sang I paid $35 for on black friday cause he didn't want the baby's that were pied he said if they aren't perfect they aren't worth his time caring for since he is a hard core breeder.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

She does not carry the cinnamon gene. The cinnamon gene is a co-dominant gene. IF a snake has the gene, that snake will display the color and pattern associated with that gene. It will look like a cinnamon. If the snake does not have the gene, the snake will not display the color and pattern. Your snake does not display the color and pattern associated with the cinnamon gene, therefore she is a normal. She is either a cinnamon or she's not, there is no carrying. The only normal snakes that "carry" genes is if it is a recessive gene. A snake that carries a single recessive gene will still look normal. If the snake carries two copies of that same gene, then it shows up as that morph. Co dominants have one copy of the gene and that one copy shows up as a morph. Take your het pied for example. If he is indeed a het pied (which you won't know unless you breed him to a het pied or pied female) then he carries a single pied gene. Two pied genes are required to make an animal look like a pied. So he "carries" the pied gene since it is recessive. Your normal female doesn't "carry" the cinnamon gene because that gene only requires one copy of the gene to express itself. Am I making sense? I can try to explain it better.

And no, there is currently not a DNA test for snakes to determine what genes they carry. The only way to find out is to breed them. For your male you'd have to breed him to a het pied or pied female (and then each resulting egg has a 25% chance of hatching out a pied).

For your female, she'll always produce normals (she doesn't carry any morph genes, so she will always give a normal gene to her offspring.) If you pair her up with morph males (that carry either dominant or co-dominant genes) then she could produce morphs, but she will always give a normal gene, never anything else. The male would be responsible for giving the gene that produces the morph offspring.

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Yes you explained that very well Thank you, so what about the reduced pattern is there anything special about that?? is there particular types that if I breed her to would ideal for morphs?

He does have small "markers" but markers are unreliable in determining whether you have a het pied or not. There are plenty of het pieds that don't have markers, and there are plenty of normals that have markers but are 100% NOT het pied. If the breeder you got him from is only using his markers as the basis for calling him a het pied, then you may not have a het pied. I would contact the breeder and ask to see pictures of the parents. Even then, some breeders unfortunately lie.

I hate to say it, and I know it might bum you out, but you may very well be breeding a normal male to your normal female, which will result in normal babies. While this isn't necessarily bad, normals don't fetch much and can be hard to find homes for sometimes. Some breeders practically give them away. Even if your male carries the pied gene, the babies will still be normals that have a 50% chance of carrying the pied gene. What you could do is keep any females they produce and breed them back to the father. If you produce a pied, then you know he's a het pied. If not then either breed him to a KNOWN het pied female or a pied female and see what you get. If you don't produce any pieds, then it is highly likely (especially if you breed him to a pied female a few seasons) he is not a het pied.

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Originally Posted by Tori Witschger

Yes you explained that very well Thank you, so what about the reduced pattern is there anything special about that?? is there particular types that if I breed her to would ideal for morphs?

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I can't think of one reputable breeder that would mistake a normal for a cinni, just be careful if you work with that guy again....

I bet if you breed her to a pastel she would make some pretty pastels with her reduced pattern :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tori Witschger

Just so its clear when I mean I paid practically nothing.. out here most normals go for $75-$100 I got her in a trade for a old baby playpen that was worth probably like $45-$55 and Sang I paid $35 for on black friday cause he didn't want the baby's that were pied he said if they aren't perfect they aren't worth his time caring for since he is a hard core breeder.

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$45-$55 is fair for a baby female normal. And $35 for a black friday sale would be fair for a het pied male. What bothers me is that he says "if they aren't perfect, they aren't worth his time caring for." Hard core breeder? This guy sounds like bad news to me. I don't care what I produce, whether it be a $10,000 (I wish! :) ) animal or a normal male that is probably worth $5. I care for each and every animal in this house and I treat them all equally.

If he came from a pied to normal pairing, he is a het pied. If he came from a het pied to het pied pairing, he has a 66% chance of being het pied. If he came from a het pied to normal pairing, he has a 50% chance of being het pied.

As far as the reduced pattern, it can sometimes be passed onto the offspring and it came make for some really nice morph babies if you have a good male. Some people love reduced pattern spiders, pinstripes, pastels, etc, so pretty much any morph you breed her with, if she produces reduced patterned morph babies, they will be very nice looking. :)

Thanks guys for all the help, Yeah it is turning out to be a bit of a bummer I am probably not gonna be working with the guy again!!! but mixing her with a pastel is definatly not something I had thought of so if she does have babies I will see what daddy and daughter comes out with to see if he is het for pied, and maybe next year I can see if anyone has a pastel I can get a breeding from cause I love my snakes even if they aren't worth hundreds and I love the hobby and maybe once every couple of years getting a clutch out of them will be fun and a lil bit of income would be nice. Can't say it enough Thank goodness I found this site!!!!

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Originally Posted by Tori Witschger

Just so its clear when I mean I paid practically nothing.. out here most normals go for $75-$100 I got her in a trade for a old baby playpen that was worth probably like $45-$55 and Sang I paid $35 for on black friday cause he didn't want the baby's that were pied he said if they aren't perfect they aren't worth his time caring for since he is a hard core breeder.

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Maybe it's just me but it sounds to me more like he just wanted to dump some animals he couldn't move and threw in some embellishments to seal the deal. Did he give you any paperwork guaranteeing genetics on the "het pied" male? If not, I'd just consider it a possible het until you can prove it out. I care about each animal I produce whether it's a normal male (that no one ever seems to want) or something far more valuable and in demand. I don't just ditch animals because I don't have time for them. If I didn't have time for them, I wouldn't have bred their parents. :colbert:

I'd steer clear of this "hard core breeder" if I were you.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

Maybe it's just me but it sounds to me more like he just wanted to dump some animals he couldn't move and threw in some embellishments to seal the deal. Did he give you any paperwork guaranteeing genetics on the "het pied" male? If not, I'd just consider it a possible het until you can prove it out. I care about each animal I produce whether it's a normal male (that no one ever seems to want) or something far more valuable and in demand. I don't just ditch animals because I don't have time for them. If I didn't have time for them, I wouldn't have bred their parents. :colbert:

I'd steer clear of this "hard core breeder" if I were you.

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yeah I am starting to see that but the sad part is that I wouldn't have needed the embellishment of het for ___ even as normals I would have been happy I was looking for a couple of snakes to share my home with, I find them very therapeutic stress relieving animals just the calm and quiet behavior. of course after he told me the types they were I did more research on what het pied and cinnamon even was cause 3 years ago I didn't have the first clue just figured they were prettier colors of brown. Now this guy has like 3 high white Piebalds, several spiders, 2 bumblebee, lemon blast and I can't remember what else but they are all just the most beautiful snakes I have seen and since it seems to be his source of income I didn't question that he didn't find them top notch worth his breeding stock and so he sells them off to leave room for the finer animals even this I can slightly understand it just kills me that he had to lie about their genes. of course I didn't even think to get paperwork on them back then cause they are just my companion pets and I didn't know snakes came with papers like dogs do. lesson learned and well in the end I can't even say it was an expensive lesson I got a good deal on them even for what they are, and they are truly good looking snakes!!:D

Well, you learned that lesson the hard way, now you can move on to better things.

Your "hard-core breeder" friend sounds like the kind of buy it quick, sell it quicker, don't give a care about anything but money type a lot of hobbies involving animals have these days.

Me personally, I don't care if all I have are 2 $30 normals, I want the best $30 normals I can find, and try to make better $30 normals from them.

That being said, both of your snakes have a nice reduced pattern, and if bred would probably produce some very nice babies, even if they are just normals.

Now, your female looks to be a good size, so she could probably be ready to breed this fall. If you were of the mind to look for her a morph mate, there are several options to take that should go well with her reduced pattern. Spider is one choice, but they do have some issues so research them and find out what you are getting into.

A mojave or a true cinnamon male is another option I believe would benefit you and that won't break the bank. If you have a little leeway in the finance department, a pinstripe or enchi is another good choice.

If it were me, I think I'd focus on making that handsome male into my companion, and that pretty girl into an excuse to make more companions!

Gale