Help! Ball Python with swollen snout and recessed eyes. Anybody seen this before?

So on Saturday I took out our spider female to show to a friend, and noticed she looked kind of funny. Like the way a burm looks like they have beady little eyes compared to their head. I asked my friend if she thought her eyes look a little bit sunken in. She didn't, so I thought maybe I was just being paranoid. Then I go to weigh her today, and notice that HOOOOOLY her face looks extremely swollen!

I examined the inside of her mouth and tried to get some photos, but it was extremely difficult to even open her mouth in the first place, let alone take photos with her squirming around.

She doesn't seem to be exhibiting any signs of an RI, and to me it doesn't look like mouth rot (stomatitis), but I have never seen that in a snake anyways, so I'm not 100% sure what I am looking for.

She is not showing any neurological symptoms, either, aside from a slight (teeny, barely noticeable) wobble after examining her. She doesn't usually exhibit any noticeable wobble, but she is a spider after all, so I wasn't really surprised to see it after all the stress I put her through.

While examining her, I did find a small piece of aspen in her mouth, but I'm thinking that is probably because it got stuck to her swollen upper lip and lodged inside, rather than the aspen being the cause of this swelling.

Right now she is QT'd on the other side of our apartment in a tub with only a water dish, hide, and newspaper substrate.

I didn't find any mucus or anything on the walls of the tub she was previously in. I was considering doing a saline rinse with a syringe, but I really wouldn't know what part of her I should be rinsing.

The closest (exotics) vet, Dr. Adrian Walton, is about a 5 - 6hr round trip for us. I have spoken with him on the phone and sent off some photos to get his opinion on weather this is an emergency situation and she needs to be brought in ASAP, or if there is something we can do for her at home. If he thinks it's an infection I'm wondering if he can have a local vet swab her mouth and prescribe some anti-biotics, as I know there is no chance of a diagnosis over the phone/internet.

Just wondering what you guys think, so I can semi-prepare what we are in for.

We are ready and willing to take the day off and make the trek to the vet if he thinks that's what we should do, in the mean time I just know there's not much we can do for her, and thought you guys might have some words of wisdom.

ACK, I'm babbling, my thoughts are all over the place, I am just so worried! We have never had to make a trip to the vet regarding one of our snakes yet!

Here are the photos I sent off to Dr. Walton:

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...91600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...81600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...71600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...61600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...51600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...41600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...31600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...21600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg
http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/a...11600x1200.jpg

Yeah I've never seen that before. It looks like she jabbed here self (or something) and has an infection from it. I wouldn't want to drive the whole trip either and stress her out if the vet couldn't do anything but I would defiantly take her to get swabbed and find out what to do from that. She could just need rinses or maybe antibiotics. What ever the case. I'm wishing you the best and let us know how it turns out.:(

thank you for your reply.

that's what another person has said on Facebook, and kind of what i was thinking due to the little patch of redness between her top rows of teeth.

it's just like, "OMG MY NERVES!!!!" i don't know how i'm going to sleep tonight.

right now she is in her tub, sitting on top of her hide. not looking distressed or anything, so hopefully that is a good sign.

I had a reticulated python that was terrible at nose rubbing and her mouth would get irritated and swollen just like that. My vet actually told me to take Berry flavored children's Listerine (alcohol free) and swab her mouth twice a day with a q-tip. It worked great.

I'm thinking if she's not showing signs of stress (and you as the owner would know her signs) than maybe the trip to the local vet should clear up any anxiety on your part. I know that feeling. It sits in your gut like a ball of lead and you worry it like a stone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

I had a reticulated python that was terrible at nose rubbing and her mouth would get irritated and swollen just like that. My vet actually told me to take Berry flavored children's Listerine (alcohol free) and swab her mouth twice a day with a q-tip. It worked great.

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I'll have to add that to my 'little bag o tricks.' :)

The red spots on the inside of the mouth are irritation and possibly the beginnings of infection..

My female retic missed her rat once last year and hit the side of the cage. She ended up breaking a couple teeth and her upper lip swelled out like that. My vet gave her antibiotics but the swelling would come and go about once a month or every other feeding for at least 6 months. I guess it just irritated the area and she probably had tooth bits stuck in her gums which could never be found due to the swelling.

When it happens that fast and there are no signs of RI, it was most likely something that caused trauma to the inside of her mouth.

If you grasp her firmly just behind the head and press the stick of a Q-tip or ball point pen against her lips, she should open her mouth. You have to apply pressure. Do not be afraid to make her open it. Just pressing on the lips works. Then hold the Q-tip (horizontally) against the inside back of her mouth, pressing slightly against where her jaws hinge and holding it at a slight angle to urge her to keep her mouth open.

A pen works great for this too as it's a bit thicker. Holding something longer than her jaws are wide, against the back of her mouth while it's open, will cause her to keep her mouth open for treatment.

Don't feed her for a couple weeks to lessen irritation. Id flush it with saline and try the Listerine to kill bacteria. Then let the vet know how she is.

Increasing the humidity will help too. This keeps and mucous from building up in the case of an infection.

If it gets worse then she needs vet treatment. If it gets better then it should heal on it's own with a little tlc.

Looks like the spider is doing some excess rubbing in the cage causing irritation and swelling. Could of even thrown a few teeth out of align and cause abscesses.

The reason the eyes look the way they do is cause of the font mouth swelling. Once that is taken care of the eyes will look normal again.

Most vets usually say use rubbing alcohol on the gums of the mouth to keep it clean and help the swelling go down. If you take yours it they may even give some stronger meds to help better.

Thank you for the responses, so much!

I tried to keep her mouth open for a better look by using a business card, and then a paper CD case, but it didn't seem to work that well, even with extra hands. The Q-Tip sounds like it might be a better plan of action. I have heard you could force them to open their mouths by applying pressure, but was afraid of hurting her.

I will go get some Listerine to treat her tomorrow. Ummm, does it matter what flavor? lol. I would assume the yellow stuff might taste a bit harsh to her. Should I dilute it, or use it straight? And as for the rubbing alcohol, I wouldn't want her to fail a roadside screening...

Just kidding on that, but is rubbing alcohol really okay to use inside of her mouth like that? I suppose it should be diluted?

Is a saline ratio of 1/8tsp to 1 cup of water correct? That is what I use for piercings when they are healing, but a snake might need a different ratio. I have some leftover (packaged) syringes from when i needed to administer antibiotics to my cockatiel, so I was thinking of irrigating her mouth with that.

Is it ok to be using Listerine, alcohol, and saline rinses all at once, or should I choose one course of treatment and stick with it before moving on to the next? Is it ok if she happens to swallow some of the saline?

ACK, so many questions, but so many sincere thanks for your helpful responses.

I still have not heard from Dr. Walton, but since it doesn't seem extremely severe or like an emergency case I might just hold off on making the trip down there if I can treat her with some of these methods.

Oops, forgot to mention. Now that I think about it, there was an incident awhile back (I'm thinking probably at least 2 months ago) where she had a very aggressive feeding response and actually wrapped the hemostats as well as her rat. It was quite awhile before she actually let go of them. Perhaps that caused some damage to her teeth, and continually feeding her further irritated her mouth?

Try one product at a time and see how it works in a weeks time. If nothing changes, then change to the next on the list.

If you wanted to do diluted you can but not needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

So on Saturday I took out our spider female to show to a friend, and noticed she looked kind of funny. Like the way a burm looks like they have beady little eyes compared to their head. I asked my friend if she thought her eyes look a little bit sunken in. She didn't, so I thought maybe I was just being paranoid. Then I go to weigh her today, and notice that HOOOOOLY her face looks extremely swollen!

I examined the inside of her mouth and tried to get some photos, but it was extremely difficult to even open her mouth in the first place, let alone take photos with her squirming around.

She doesn't seem to be exhibiting any signs of an RI, and to me it doesn't look like mouth rot (stomatitis), but I have never seen that in a snake anyways, so I'm not 100% sure what I am looking for.

She is not showing any neurological symptoms, either, aside from a slight (teeny, barely noticeable) wobble after examining her. She doesn't usually exhibit any noticeable wobble, but she is a spider after all, so I wasn't really surprised to see it after all the stress I put her through.

While examining her, I did find a small piece of aspen in her mouth, but I'm thinking that is probably because it got stuck to her swollen upper lip and lodged inside, rather than the aspen being the cause of this swelling.

Right now she is QT'd on the other side of our apartment in a tub with only a water dish, hide, and newspaper substrate.

I didn't find any mucus or anything on the walls of the tub she was previously in. I was considering doing a saline rinse with a syringe, but I really wouldn't know what part of her I should be rinsing.

The closest (exotics) vet, Dr. Adrian Walton, is about a 5 - 6hr round trip for us. I have spoken with him on the phone and sent off some photos to get his opinion on weather this is an emergency situation and she needs to be brought in ASAP, or if there is something we can do for her at home. If he thinks it's an infection I'm wondering if he can have a local vet swab her mouth and prescribe some anti-biotics, as I know there is no chance of a diagnosis over the phone/internet.

Just wondering what you guys think, so I can semi-prepare what we are in for.

We are ready and willing to take the day off and make the trek to the vet if he thinks that's what we should do, in the mean time I just know there's not much we can do for her, and thought you guys might have some words of wisdom.

ACK, I'm babbling, my thoughts are all over the place, I am just so worried! We have never had to make a trip to the vet regarding one of our snakes yet!

Here are the photos I sent off to Dr. Walton:

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Please please let me know what the doc says by PM. my male harlequin ball python has the same exact thing. I am actually considering taking him in to the vet as his snout is a little more swollen and has a bump on the top. Im assuming he got bit by a rat as I feed live and it created an infection and is now gathering fluids. He eats fine and otherwise is healthy but if it is an infection I need to get it treated asap as I cannot loose him. I tried giving him antibiotics via injections but it has not helped. Please let me know. Thanks.

To answer the Listerine question, my vet repeatedly told me that ONLY the childrens berry flavor, alcohol free was safe to use. While all the Listerines will help with controlling bacteria and infection, the other forms are harsh enough that they can actually irritate the mouth further.

Injections usually won't work for a mouth irritation or infection. It has to be treated at the source.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Injections usually won't work for a mouth irritation or infection. It has to be treated at the source.

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Yeah I think im just gonna take him to the vet to be on the safe side. Here is a pic of him (to show off a little)

http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/...5-25001837.jpg

I know that my snake was not bitten, as she doesn't eat live.

But Rat160, thats a pretty snake! I think our situations are a bit different though. I would imagine a rat bite to the mouth could be quite severe indeed. Because you've said you had her on injections previously, this suggests she's already been to the vet?

If there is an abcess in the mouth due to irritation or a tooth lodged in the gums then the abcess will need to be drained most likely, then a treatment of antibiotics will be needed, but I am not a vet, so I would reccomend getting them medical attention...

I have a female that had the exact same thing, ended up giving her a round of antibiotics, cleared up.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0336-1.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...1/PICT0339.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...1/PICT0338.jpg

Sorry my pics aren't that good

ah yes, that does look the same as my snake, for sure.

i'm going to try her on the saline rinse for a couple days and see if any swelling goes down, and try the children's listerine as well. the vet has not gotten back to me yet and i didn't get a chance to call today, but i am going to email him tonight and let him see this thread.

thanks again, everybody!

i spoke with the vet this evening, and she is going in to see him. he is recommending a round of Baytril, just based on photos.

that may change once we actually get her down there, though. i'm just not sure when to take her. she can go down on Thursday, but would have to spend the entire day in the car while Dave is at work, be dropped off, stay overnight at the vet (if he's willing to keep her even), and be picked up after Dave is finished work on Friday.

or else we could wait until Saturday. i really don't want her to stress out by being in the car all day, UGH.

so worried.

in the meantime going to be rinsing her with sea salt water and a syringe, and wiping with diluted rubbing alcohol.

get better, Charlotte :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by llovelace

I have a female that had the exact same thing, ended up giving her a round of antibiotics, cleared up.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...PICT0336-1.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...1/PICT0339.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...1/PICT0338.jpg

Sorry my pics aren't that good

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did you get a diagnosis on what the cause of her swelling was? it's definitely comforting that the antibiotics cleared your snake up!

Actually no

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

To answer the Listerine question, my vet repeatedly told me that ONLY the childrens berry flavor, alcohol free was safe to use. While all the Listerines will help with controlling bacteria and infection, the other forms are harsh enough that they can actually irritate the mouth further.

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understandable. again to relate to healing peircings, it's the same as using something really harsh like peroxide or rubbing alcohol. it kills the "bad" bacteria, but also the good healing bacteria.

i didn't manage to find any of the Berry flavored one yet, but i have used Oral-B Alcohol Free before on myself. definitely doesn't have that harsh burn.

i'm sure it's not Berry specifically that the snake can have, i think it's the alcohol-free part that is important.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by llovelace

Actually no

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dang!

well tomorrow is Charlotte's appointment at the vet! wish us luck, and i will let you all know how it goes.

Fingers crossed for good news. :please:

we just got back. the good news:

- her swelling and inflammation has definitely went down.
- NO RI, NO mouth rot!

the not great news:
- no idea what the cause of the irritation and inflammation is.
- oral Baytril every day for 3 weeks
- the first dose or Baytril didn't go very well, i think most of it got on me.

and NO i did not put it in her windpipe, that's the first thing Dr. Walton said, lol. apparently it's a common thing when dosing snakes with oral medicine.

keeping our fingers crossed that she heals up totally fine!

See, I knew everything would be ok. Those of us with experience with this had a feeling it wasn't RI. I do wish the vet had given you oral clindamycin though. It will take awhile for the baytril to help this and it may flare up again later on if there is any tooth damage. Clindamycin targets mouth infections and works much better and faster in these situations. Often just a couple days.

Either way, your little snake will be fine. Now you also know what to have on hand to clean the mouth if it ever happens again. Keep us updated and take some pics after she is all healed up :)

thanks, I will keep that in mind if this doesn't clear up, and will suggest that to him!

it's actually quite amazing how much her swelling has went down since the photos were taken, all on it's own.

we will see what happens and i will for sure update some photos, just don't want to bug her too much right now.

do you have any tips for dosing her with the Baytril? i got the IV tube in her (after a whole bunch of twisting and turning and "backing up" on her part) but then as i pushed the plunger down it seemed a bunch of the medicine didn't quite go down all the way. is this because she was so stressed out that she closed up the muscles in her throat and caused it to come back up?

i'm just worried she might not get the proper dosage

Hi,

The last time I had to give oral meds to a BP the best solution was to have two people involved and to go slowly with the plunger while massaging it down their neck.

Anything else and I ended up dosing the floor.


dr del

it's going to be a process... i do have Dave here to help me but this snake fights it HARD. we got a rubber spatula as recommended by the vet to keep her mouth open. but it's impossible to stop her from going all loop-de-doo to get away from us.

she was prescribed 2CC once per day, but like i said i'm just worried that most of it is going to spill, as i don't think we'll really have time to massage it down her neck.

do you think it would be better for us to give her 1CC twice per day? or would that just be added stress to have to endure the procedure twice?



i suspect we'll be a lot better at it by the end of the 3 weeks.

thankfully, the Baytril went better today! much better! she actually ingested the whole dose this time, instead of it spraying all over me and the floor.

i just went really, really slow. which she did not like, but the meds are what's important, we'll work on getting back on her good side when this is all over.

Misread post, sorry -deleted-

my lesser male has the same thing - disjointed jaw (only on one side) and eyes have recessed due to head swelling. I am currently looking for a herp vet that i can take him to in sacramento, CA. a few snakes in my collection had mites a few months ago - and i could have sworn i read something saying mites burrow into the eye sockets of the ball python and cause swollen heads? has anyone else heard this?

Might want to start your own thread with that question since this thread is from last year. Probably will get answers that will help your guy much sooner that way. I just started with bp and don't know that much about mites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hypersomniacjoo

my lesser male has the same thing - disjointed jaw (only on one side) and eyes have recessed due to head swelling. I am currently looking for a herp vet that i can take him to in sacramento, CA. a few snakes in my collection had mites a few months ago - and i could have sworn i read something saying mites burrow into the eye sockets of the ball python and cause swollen heads? has anyone else heard this?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crewpsu

Might want to start your own thread with that question since this thread is from last year. Probably will get answers that will help your guy much sooner that way. I just started with bp and don't know that much about mites.

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thanks will do :)