Bloody nose in rats?- help

On of my weaned rats looks as if they have blood around their nose. What is this? What can I do. I have 10 adult rats, and approx 35 kittens from pinkie to just weaned. Is this contagious? What can I do to treat them all without having to take them all to the vet? I am trying to build my colony right now and I don't want to put them down and have to start over, not to mention the infected rat I am most worried about is my 5 year olds beloved pet. Please help.

You sure he just didn't get nipped by one of his brothers or sisters???

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Originally Posted by womsterr

You sure he just didn't get nipped by one of his brothers or sisters???

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I don't think so. I was checking her out and I didn't see any wounds. The little cardboard box I have in her cage has blood tinged stains on it inside that are very small dots in a lot of areas. She was also sneezing.

Sounds like myco :( I had a bout of it go through my breeders when I went out of town for a few days and my sister forgot to clean them. If it is myco, it's not blood, it's porphyrin stains. I ended up getting rid of the rats that had it the worst, but got my pet male through it. He still gets "episodes" of it now and then, and it will most likely be what kills him, but so far he's doing pretty good.
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/myco.htm
Also, the site lists some antibiotics to use. I didn't end up using any, just cut down the number of rats in each group, and started cleaning cages at least every other day. Good luck

I have been cleaning the cages twice a week. I started with using Carefresh, cardboard and papershreading, but then I changed to cardboard, Equinefresh, and papershreading for bedding.

They are housed in aquariums. They were sneezing when I bought them from the pet store. :( Is it contagious?

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Originally Posted by musicalKeyes

Sounds like myco :( I had a bout of it go through my breeders when I went out of town for a few days and my sister forgot to clean them. If it is myco, it's not blood, it's porphyrin stains. I ended up getting rid of the rats that had it the worst, but got my pet male through it. He still gets "episodes" of it now and then, and it will most likely be what kills him, but so far he's doing pretty good.
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/myco.htm
Also, the site lists some antibiotics to use. I didn't end up using any, just cut down the number of rats in each group, and started cleaning cages at least every other day. Good luck

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I just read that link. :tears: That makes me really sad. It says stress can also lead to it. Herman (the weaned pet rat) was orphaned at about 1 week old, and has been bottle feed in addition to fostered by a two mother rats. Unfortunately due to the second mother also dying I had to wean them at around 3 weeks because I only have two lactating rats for all of the babies. (We did have 40 but I feed off some to bring their numbers down.

Plus since she is the favorite of my five year old I am sure he stresses her out some. Although she comes to the top when he comes by like she wants to be taken out and she hasn't bit him even though she now has teeth.

She is the tan hooded one. These pictures are from a couple of weeks ago. Do you think the mother had it and infected the whole litter when they were born?

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSC_0628.jpg
http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/...s/DSC_0634.jpg

It's fairly common for little ones to show red noses and it's just as common for it to go away on it's own.
If the bedding is kept clean just keep an eye on the kit and make sure it doesn't continue.
I see red noses in some of my babies but rarely does it continue on to a full-on myco episode.

Has nothing to do with myco, bedding. Not to say rats dont get sick. Red secretions around the nose and eyes is natural in rats. Ive bred rats for 5 yrs, I have hundreds. You keep changing bedding, pine will cause resperatory infections, kiln dried cedar is the best for smell and health of my rats. Change it every 2-3 wks vs 5-6 days with pine. I use freddom breeder tubs with 1.2 in each. I have breeders over 2yrs old on cedar, on pine they would rarely last a yr.

Porphyrin and Rats

To the rat enthusiast, one porphyrin is of particular interest: the one that is secreted by the Harderian gland and appears around the rat's eyes. This red substance looks like red tears or blood, and can be startling to those who are unfamiliar with rats. Occasional low levels of porphyrin staining are normal, but regular large amounts of porphyrin indicate stress, sickness, or poor diet.



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The Harderian gland

The Harderian gland (or Harder's lacrimal gland) was first described by a Swiss physician named Johann Harder in 1694 in a red deer. Harderian glands are found in all vertebrates (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians) that possess a nictitating membrane, or third eyelid, and are especially large in ungulates and rodents. They are located behind the eyeball in the orbit, at the base of the nictitating membrane, encircling the optic nerve. Humans have a rudimentary one.

The Harderian gland contains photoreceptors, and may be sensitive to light, like the eye itself (Vaughan et al. 1988, Lythgoe 1984). So, while it cannot see images like the eye can, it can still sense light, and it may help regulate the pineal gland (Feria-Velasco 1983, Wetterburg et al. 1970, but see Blackshaw and Shaw 1997).

The Harderian gland is an exocrine gland. Harderian secretions coat the eye, and drain down into the nose through the nasolacrimal duct. The rat may smear the secretions around his nose and fur with his paws during grooming.



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Harderian gland secretions: lipids, melatonin and porphyrin



Slight porphyrin staining around a rat's nostril

The Harderian gland produces mainly lipids (fats) (Satoh et al. 1996, Buzzell 1996, Harvey 1991). These are thought to lubricate the eye and the nictitating membrane (Buzzell 1996, Sakai 1981).

In the rat, in addition to these lipids, the Harderian gland produces melatonin as well as porphyrin (Djeridane and Touitou 2001, Rohonyi and Kelenyi 1962).

The porphyrin produced by the Harderian gland in rats is mostly protoporphyrin IX (PPIX), which does not have a central metal ion (Cui et al. 2003). The porphyrin is stored within the gland (Djeridane 1996, 1994). Dried porphyrin glows pink under ultraviolet light (Towbin et al. 1945).

Harderian porphyrin production increases with age for most of the rat's life: twenty month old rats produce more porphyrin than three month old rats. This natural increase reverses around age two: two year old rats produce less porphyrin than 20 month old rats (Rodriguez et al. 1992).

The function of Harderian porphyrin in rats is poorly understood. It may help protect the eye from light, as porphyrin is increasingly excreted in response to light (Hugo et al. 1987, but see Shirama et al. 1987). Porphyrin stored in the Harderian gland responds to UV and blue light, causing an increase in secretion (Cui et al. 2003). Porphyrin may also regulate the action of certain enzymes within the Harderian gland (Cardalada et al. 1997).




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The overproduction of porphyrin in rats

Rats sometimes produce profuse amounts of porphyrin in their Harderian gland secretions. The porphyrin-filled tears overflow the eye and dry on and around the eyelids, forming a dark red crust, a condition called chromodacryorrhea (KRO-mo-DAK-re-o-re-uh). The secretions drain from the eye into the nose, and once there may overflow the nostrils and dry around that area as well. The rat may then wipe the secretions with its paws, leading to red-stained paws and muzzles. Occasional small amounts of porphyrin are normal, but large, regular amounts indicate an underlying problem.

Rats overproduce porphyrin when they are stressed, ill, or poorly fed. Acute stress, such as limb restraint (Harkness and Ridgeway 1980), sleep deprivation (Hipolide and Tufik 1995), water deprivation (Figge and Atkinson 1945, but see Harkness and Ridgeway 1980), joint pain (Harper et al. 2001, Kerins et al. 2003), morphine withdrawal (Buccafusco 1990), acetylcholine injections (Harkness and Ridgeway 1980), and exposure to electric fields (Rommereim et al. 1990) have been found to cause chromodacryorrhea.

The onset of porphyrin overproduction after a stressor is variable. After injection with acetylcholine, for example, profuse amounts of porphyrin were secreted almost immediately and overflowed the eye to stain the eyelids within minutes. Rats experiencing limb restraint started producing copious amounts of porphyrin within 17-30 minutes (range 3-40 minutes). The larger the rat, the shorter its latency to produce porphyrin. In restrained rats, porphyrin was produced for about two hours, then it ceased (Harkness and Ridgeway 1980).

"Occasional low levels of porphyrin staining are normal, but regular large amounts of porphyrin indicate stress, sickness, or poor diet."

this :)

Yeah, that definitely doesn't look anywhere bad enough to be myco. Like was said above, small amounts of it are natural. As long as the little guy is doing everything else fine, eating, breathing, etc., He should be just fine :)

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Originally Posted by mmateo

Has nothing to do with myco, bedding. Not to say rats dont get sick. Red secretions around the nose and eyes is natural in rats. Ive bred rats for 5 yrs, I have hundreds. You keep changing bedding, pine will cause resperatory infections, kiln dried cedar is the best for smell and health of my rats. Change it every 2-3 wks vs 5-6 days with pine. I use freddom breeder tubs with 1.2 in each. I have breeders over 2yrs old on cedar, on pine they would rarely last a yr.

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Kiln dried cedar?
Kiln dried pine is all I use now after changing from aspen and not one case of myco, EVER.
Kiln dried pine does not cause anything and cedar is something I would never put under my rats, just really bad advise....

Masking the ammonia with anything is not healthy for the rat, you may not be smelling it but the rats are still breathing it.
"Occasional small amounts of porphyrin are normal, but large, regular amounts indicate an underlying problem."

There is no way you can go 2-3 weeks with any type of bedding without having absolutely disgusting bedding the rats are laying on, that's just gross.

Thank you for your information. That is very stress relieving. They all are eating, and playing like normal, in fact I really haven't noticed it since I posted last. I hope that is all the problem is. I know the diet isn't the problem I feed Lab rat blocks with "treats daily" like lettuce, oat meal, kitten formula, pasta, broccoli, watermelon, strawberries, yogurt, cottage cheese, pineapple, carrots, apples. I don't give them a ton of treats just a little of something everyday. I try to hand feed them it to increase their trust of me so that they let me reach in to check the babies.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Kiln dried cedar?
Kiln dried pine is all I use now after changing from aspen and not one case of myco, EVER.
Kiln dried pine does not cause anything and cedar is something I would never put under my rats, just really bad advise....

Masking the ammonia with anything is not healthy for the rat, you may not be smelling it but the rats are still breathing it.
"Occasional small amounts of porphyrin are normal, but large, regular amounts indicate an underlying problem."

There is no way you can go 2-3 weeks with any type of bedding without having absolutely disgusting bedding the rats are laying on, that's just gross.

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Your and idiot. People who put 4-5 rats in small tubs have nasty tubs. I house 2-3 at most adult rats in each tub. Rats are breathing ammonia even if there is no ammonia odor??? Idiot. My rats have never been more heathy since I changed to CEDAR. My rats are housed in an upstairs bedroom and you can not smell them anyhwere in the house. Idiots like you complain about KILN dried cedar because of oils which are burned of when its KILN dried. News flash idiot PINE also contains oils and you house your rats on it without question. But idiot the oils in pine are also burned off in the KILN dried process. Your cedar is bad aguement has no facts to back it up. You read it was bad some where and passed it on. Do you fresh kill your rats so they wont kill your snakes also, because i read somewhere to NEVER feed a BP a live rat...how stupid house them on whatever you want and keep complaining of how bad they smell. Mine smell great and are very heathy, so are all my BPs who eat them.

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Originally Posted by mmateo

Your and idiot. People who put 4-5 rats in small tubs have nasty tubs. I house 2-3 at most adult rats in each tub. Rats are breathing ammonia even if there is no ammonia odor??? Idiot. My rats have never been more heathy since I changed to CEDAR. My rats are housed in an upstairs bedroom and you can not smell them anyhwere in the house. Idiots like you complain about KILN dried cedar because of oils which are burned of when its KILN dried. News flash idiot PINE also contains oils and you house your rats on it without question. But idiot the oils in pine are also burned off in the KILN dried process. Your cedar is bad aguement has no facts to back it up. You read it was bad some where and passed it on. Do you fresh kill your rats so they wont kill your snakes also, because i read somewhere to NEVER feed a BP a live rat...how stupid house them on whatever you want and keep complaining of how bad they smell. Mine smell great and are very heathy, so are all my BPs who eat them.

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Wow, would you relax? It's pretty generally passed around that cedar isn't good for any animal, and cedar does have a stronger odor from oils than regular pine does. I keep mine on pine and I have a big group of 6 plus babies and I change them almost every day, and they don't smell and they're not "nasty", so there goes your first sentence. Insulting someone isn't going to get you're opinion across any better, so take a chill pill and stop with the insults. Seriously.