Quick, snake is spazzing out!

Okay, my son's snake just started moving around fast and flipping his hides around and is rubbing his face and turning upside down and it looks freeky.
He did this only for a few seconds, then he'd stop and slither around and stop again, then he's spaz again. Not sure why. I think he did this last night too because I woke up to see his hide upside down on top of his water bowl.
What do you think is wrong????:O
Oh and he kinks his head right down and then flips over. It's like something on his head is bugging him but theres nothing there.

Dare I say IBD?

What are the temps and what do you clean with?

temps are good, 90 and 81. I haven't cleaned his cage since last week and I used some diluted hydrogen peroxide, which is not harmfull at all, plus I dryed it out.

What's the bedding you have it on?

I wouldn't jump to IBD so quickly. That gets tossed around WAY too frequently in terms of BPs in my opinion. IBD is a disease that can be carried by boas with no outward symptoms, but it will kill a ball python pretty quickly, within a month from everything I have read. I seriously doubt the behavior is IBD.

Are you sure the mites aren't back? It sounds like they might be hatching and causing your snake some discomfort. He/she doesn't have arms and hands to scratch those itches, so he could be trying to get rid of them. You may want to give another mite treatment and see if that stops the behavior...

He's on paper towels. Actually I did treat him again a few hrs ago for mites again, allthough I haven't seen any or any eggs etc for a week now. There are some scales all over the glass from him rubbing, but its not time for him to shed yet. Maybe his scales got dry from the mite treatment. He has a retained eye cap, a half a one, that he rubbs daily, I have put a tiny dab of mineral oil on it to help lossen it. His humidity fluctuates between 50 and 60 and I try to spray daily. I'm really worried. He can sit still and is just constantly rubbing and flipping around.

What kind of mite treatment did you use? I thought you only were supposed to treat the cage?

I was told to use NIX conditioner and to dilute it. I called 3 pet stores in town and that's what they all said to use. I wonder if its that? Allthough, the owner of this smaller reptile store said he has always treated all his snakes with Nix with no problems ever in 20 yrs.
Plus, wouldn't he have reacted to it last week?
The problem looks like its his face thats bugging him.

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Originally Posted by ocean girl

He's on paper towels. Actually I did treat him again a few hrs ago for mites again, allthough I haven't seen any or any eggs etc for a week now. There are some scales all over the glass from him rubbing, but its not time for him to shed yet. Maybe his scales got dry from the mite treatment. He has a retained eye cap, a half a one, that he rubbs daily, I have put a tiny dab of mineral oil on it to help lossen it. His humidity fluctuates between 50 and 60 and I try to spray daily. I'm really worried. He can sit still and is just constantly rubbing and flipping around.

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How did you treat him for mites and what did you use?

Uhhhh...took this from another thread...

This is why PAM should be used and NOT NIX...
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=provent

Give him a good 5 min bath in room temp water. The mite treatment is the last thing that you did that was different, so that's almost certainly the cause. If he keeps freaking out after the bath, wash out the tank and switch out the bedding.

If mites are still a problem, spend the money on a can of Provent-a-Mite, and treat the ENCLOSURE ONLY with that instead of the Nix.

The OP lives in Canada. I'm not sure Provent-A-Mite is available there.

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Originally Posted by Vypyrz

The OP lives in Canada. I'm not sure Provent-A-Mite is available there.

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Here is a thread I found on PAM in Canada :)
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...able-in-Canada

Oh great! So he's probably going to die? Well then why do all these other pet store owners suggest Nix? They could have suggested anything, but they suggested Nix? This one owner even said full strength and I diluted it to the extreme!!
I was looking up that IBD, and he does show signs of it.
He has only pooped 2 times since we have owned him, We've had him over a month, maybe 2 months.
-He does that sun gazing. he will sit with his head and halve his body staight up and down on the side of the glass.
He's rubbing all his scales off
-He is flipping around
- constantly rubs his nose and side of face on the glass, has done this since we've owned him.
-Isn't eating for past 2 weeks. Could be due to mites, but even after his treatment and seeing no more mites, still doesn't want to eat.
-That's all I know so far, but he definately looks some what like he's seizing!

Hi,

If you've had him 2 months it isn't IBD.

It sounds like mites for almost all the rest of it.

And God knows why people keep recommending treatments that have been known to kill animals - I try and correct it every time I see it.

There was one yesterday in fact. When there was nothing better it was common practice to make up a home treatment and risk it. I like the fact we don't have to do that any more.


dr del

IMO it sounds like your snake is in serious trouble. I'd take him to a vet and if it can't be helped, I'd get him put down humanly. I'm sorry :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ocean girl

-He does that sun gazing. he will sit with his head and halve his body staight up and down on the side of the glass.
- constantly rubs his nose and side of face on the glass, has done this since we've owned him.
-Isn't eating for past 2 weeks. Could be due to mites, but even after his treatment and seeing no more mites, still doesn't want to eat.
-That's all I know so far, but he definately looks some what like he's seizing!

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Check him for the following:
-Wheezing, popping or gurgling when he breathes.
-Check in and around his mouth for mucus and/or bubbles.
-Look around the enclosure for signs of dried mucus on the glass or furnishings.

What you listed above are also symptoms of a Respiratory Infection, and all of the face rubbing and strange movements may be him trying to clear his airway to breathe...

I checked him, there are no sounds, bubbles, wheezing etc.
He actually was very angry when I touched his head and before, we could pretty much do what ever to his head and he didn't care at all.
He started this flailing thing late last night, before his second mite treatment. I didn't see him doing it, but the inside of his cage was pretty much turned upside down, even the paper towel was all over the place.

In regards to treatment today, it was very minimal, I gently sprayed him and then bathed him in fresh water after so he was clean. I sprayed the tank, then wiped it out as well. I didn't see one mite.

I read that IBD is or can be transmitted through mites? How will I know if he has this, and if he does, there is no cure!

-Are you measuring the warm side temperatures on top of the substrate or under it?
-What type of heating are you using and how are you regulating it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ocean girl

I checked him, there are no sounds, bubbles, wheezing etc.
He actually was very angry when I touched his head and before, we could pretty much do what ever to his head and he didn't care at all.
He started this flailing thing late last night, before his second mite treatment. I didn't see him doing it, but the inside of his cage was pretty much turned upside down, even the paper towel was all over the place.

In regards to treatment today, it was very minimal, I gently sprayed him and then bathed him in fresh water after so he was clean. I sprayed the tank, then wiped it out as well. I didn't see one mite.

I read that IBD is or can be transmitted through mites? How will I know if he has this, and if he does, there is no cure!

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Wait you sprayed the snake with "Nix" ?!?!?! How long ago was the last treatment?

Nix is not a "Spray on the critter" mite treatment its a spray the bedding and let dry kind of treatment.. If you did this before and not long ago then the animal is reacting to being sprayed with a pesticide.

How long ago was the last time you treated the animal and was it like today spraying the snake?

Neither provent-a-mite, nor nix bedding spray,(same thing) should ever come in contact with the snake. If it's used on the bedding and enclosure, it must be used according to directions. Very lightly and allowed to completely dry and air out for awhile before the snake is put back in. The enclosure should be well ventilated during this process and it's not recommended to replace the water bowl for a couple days afterward to be sure the snake doesn't track any residue into it.

There are spray on mite treatments that are for topical use which are safe for the snake but PAM and NIX are never to be used on the animal in any concentration.

Hi,

IBD kills ball pythons really fast.

If you have had him for 2 months without adding any new snakes and you don't already have a boa in your collection he could have been infected by then it definately isn't IBD.

Because he would have been dead a month ago in all likelyhood.


dr del

Hi,

Provent-a-Mite and NIX are not the same thing.

With P-a-M you can put the snake and the waterbowl back in as soon as the residue is dry and the fumes have dissapated.

People keep saying they have the same ingredients - they don't. They use the same family of chemicals but that is a far different thing.

Read this post and it may clear some of the misconceptions up a little.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=provent


dr del

Oh yes they are.. Permethrin .50%

I double checked both cans to be sure.

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Oh yes they are.. Permethrin .50%

I double checked both cans to be sure.

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From the post I liked to;

Quote:

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"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

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dr del

maybe I did not see this.. but is this a normal ball python?? (stupid question I know, but it sounds similar to the spider issues)

another thought would be neurological issues? I had one that acted similarly due to extreme temperatures when shipped/mixed with dehydration (to the best of my knowledge)

any head trauma? radical temp changes etc???

sounds like he is flipping out due to mites and/or the nix directly to the body. Give me frequent warm baths for the next few days and get the PAM...i'm sure he will be fine..just need some time....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miss Tuniwha

maybe I did not see this.. but is this a normal ball python?? (stupid question I know, but it sounds similar to the spider issues)

another thought would be neurological issues? I had one that acted similarly due to extreme temperatures when shipped/mixed with dehydration (to the best of my knowledge)

any head trauma? radical temp changes etc???

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I try to keep the temps stable, but with only a dimmer switch, it will vary day and night, I have a thermastat coming in the mail.
The cold side varies between 80 and 84 at the highest and the hot side varies from 90 - 95 on a hot day and then it needs to be adjusted, but if it gets that hot, he just goes over to the cold side.
I noticed at night the hot pad can get cold when the room gets colder and can go as low as 85 or so, but thats not to bad.
There has been no head trama.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Neither provent-a-mite, nor nix bedding spray,(same thing) should ever come in contact with the snake. If it's used on the bedding and enclosure, it must be used according to directions. Very lightly and allowed to completely dry and air out for awhile before the snake is put back in. The enclosure should be well ventilated during this process and it's not recommended to replace the water bowl for a couple days afterward to be sure the snake doesn't track any residue into it.

There are spray on mite treatments that are for topical use which are safe for the snake but PAM and NIX are never to be used on the animal in any concentration.

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You are correct about the Nix spray, it should never be sprayed on the animal.
But you can use Nix conditioner (Diluted) on the snake,in a spray bottle, as well as humans and babies. You can't use nix spray on humans either, I guess they are different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

IBD kills ball pythons really fast.

If you have had him for 2 months without adding any new snakes and you don't already have a boa in your collection he could have been infected by then it definately isn't IBD.

Because he would have been dead a month ago in all likelyhood.


dr del

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I don't know much about IBD, I just looked it up tonight, but I read they can have it for years before developing symptoms. Also they can catch it easily from other snakes or there mites.
He is from a pet store that had many snakes FULL of mites, I didn't know this at the time, but now I know because everyone of them were soaking in water bowls, they also had a very large snake that was sick with something, he looked horrible, poor thing.

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ocean girl

You are correct about the Nix spray, it should never be sprayed on the animal.
But you can use Nix conditioner (Diluted) on the snake,in a spray bottle, as well as humans and babies. You can't use nix spray on humans either, I guess they are different.

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I don't mean to be blunt but given your situation I'm going to go ahead and say no, no you can't.

I'm not saying that to be mean - though I realise it probably sounds that way.

I just didn't want someone reading this thread in the future to read that and go away and repeat this situation.


dr del

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ocean girl

I don't know much about IBD, I just looked it up tonight, but I read they can have it for years before developing symptoms. Also they can catch it easily from other snakes or there mites.
He is from a pet store that had many snakes FULL of mites, I didn't know this at the time, but now I know because everyone of them were soaking in water bowls, they also had a very large snake that was sick with something, he looked horrible, poor thing.

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Boas can have it for a long time and not show any symptoms - but it generally kills ball pythons inside three or four weeks from all I have read.

If he has had the snake for two months and doesn't have any boas in his house to share mites with then it shouldn't be possible for it to be IBD.

Unless he keeps going back to the store and is bringing new mites back with him?


dr del