Can you diagnose my BP

Hi everyone,
My name is Danny and I am new to this forum. I think I may have a sick ball on my hands and I am wondering if you may be able to diagnose him. He is a 12 year old who was never a finicky eater and very docile to hold. I fed him on March 8, right after a shed (where he retained eye caps). About 3 Weeks later he had another full shed and has been acting vey weird/agitated since then. Once he finished this past shed, I tried feeding him a rat and he wouldn't eat it. In fact he acted very frightened by it and tried very hard to get out of the feeding area. Over the last month, any time I try to touch/hold him he acts very agitated (fast body movements) but does not strike, and then he makes these crazy jerking movements with his body. He is also constantly active- day or night. I looked into IBD but I don't think he has that. Maybe constipation? I was able to film him flipping out and have provided the link for it below. Any opinions would be very helpful.
Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZvE9iRVflM

Ok wow I watched 2 min of that and I just can't watch anymore. There's something defiantly going on. So I've never seen anything like that at all in my life and it's not normal nor is it constipation. So let's try and figure out what's going on. Meanwhile you need to get him to a vet. And if you have other snakes quarantine him asap.
How long has this been going on?
How long have you had him?
What's the temps in the cage? Hot
And coolside.
What are the temperatures controlled by?
How are you measuring the temperatures?
Does he still do that If taken out of the cage and put into a non heated enclosure and left alone for awhile?
Does he do that all the time, or will he calm down for a bit and start up again?
Has he been losing weight? And have you been weighing him regularly?
What has his feeding schedule been like and what has he been eating?
Have you or him come in contact with any other snakes mainly boas or other pythons in the last 30 days? In anyway, like did you touch someones ball or boa and go home and feed, touch, clean, anything?

I know this is alot of questions and they may not seem relevant but it could help everyone figure out what is going on with that poor baby. So if you could answer them it may help us give you some ideas on what going on. But without a vet we won't be able to diagnose him.

Morgan

Have you checked him & the cage for mites? I had a mite outbreak once, and my Spotted Python's agitated behavior (trying desperately to escape) is what first clued me in... blech. Aside from that, it's pretty hard to diagnose a snake over the internet - do you have a herp vet anywhere nearby?

Btw, I haven't watched the video yet... sounds like more than mites, though, based on the above comment. :(

Oh mites yes! Do you see mites on him? Water dish? Look under his chin or right by his eyes, under belly scales. Still answer the questions though. That will help alot. Not saying that's what it is that just reminded me to include that. The video looks terrible though. I feel so bad for him.

Man, I didn't last a minute. You seriously need to take him to a vet. Don't wait thinking you'll find an answer on here. I got these two snakes from someone years ago and they had mites as well as internal parasites and didn't act like that. I don't even have a theory for what it could be. It doesn't even look like he has control over what he's doing. Does he do that all the time or every now and then??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

Ok wow I watched 2 min of that and I just can't watch anymore. There's something defiantly going on. So I've never seen anything like that at all in my life and it's not normal nor is it constipation. So let's try and figure out what's going on. Meanwhile you need to get him to a vet. And if you have other snakes quarantine him asap.
How long has this been going on?
How long have you had him?
What's the temps in the cage? Hot
And coolside.
What are the temperatures controlled by?
How are you measuring the temperatures?
Does he still do that If taken out of the cage and put into a non heated enclosure and left alone for awhile?
Does he do that all the time, or will he calm down for a bit and start up again?
Has he been losing weight? And have you been weighing him regularly?
What has his feeding schedule been like and what has he been eating?
Have you or him come in contact with any other snakes mainly boas or other pythons in the last 30 days? In anyway, like did you touch someones ball or boa and go home and feed, touch, clean, anything?

I know this is alot of questions and they may not seem relevant but it could help everyone figure out what is going on with that poor baby. So if you could answer them it may help us give you some ideas on what going on. But without a vet we won't be able to diagnose him.

Morgan

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Thanks for your responses. Answers to your questions are the following:
1. about a week and a half (i thought it had stopped)
2. i have had him since his birth (he has always been in great health and physically looks healthy right now)
3. Temp with lamp is about 80, temp at night is about 72
4. Temps controlled by timer switch (he has lived completely fine on this system throughout his life)
5. Temps are measured with gauge.
6. He only does that flipping out motion when I go to touch him or try to pick him up. When left alone he calms down but still moves actively around the cage. Seems like he cant just go hide and relax.
7. Have not been weighing him regularly, from how he looks/feels it doesn't seem like that.
8. He normally eats one medium rat a month.
9. I have not had any contact with any other animals. It doesn't look like he has mites ( i have checked all of the areas for that and see nothing)

- I assume that I can take him to a vet, but I do not know where to go or do i have the money to shell out. I love him but cannot accumulate $500+ in vet bills. :/ I live in Orange County

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help.

This sounds similar: muscle spasms

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reptiles-...ale-ball-1.htm

Wow. At first I thought IBD for sure, but he's holding his head completely level. And he really looks like he's trying to get OUT.

If you can rule out mites, and you can't afford a vet, can you give him a different caging situation? Buy him an all-new, larger tank, use a completely different sort of bedding, give him a bunch of new hides? Because if it's not medical, and your husbandry is fine, that pretty much just leaves environmental.

(Or a girl. I suppose he could really, really want a female--he looks like my horny males when they wrestle. Except they usually wrestle with ANOTHER SNAKE, not by themselves.)

Bizarre, it looks like he's trying to fight off the walls of the cage! That worries me, I would visit a vet if I saw Maru doing that! :O

i just tried to pick him up again and he went into spasm. also he excreted some gooey sticky white stuff...btw im only guessing he is a male...I have always thought he was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Wow. At first I thought IBD for sure, but he's holding his head completely level. And he really looks like he's trying to get OUT.

If you can rule out mites, and you can't afford a vet, can you give him a different caging situation? Buy him an all-new, larger tank, use a completely different sort of bedding, give him a bunch of new hides? Because if it's not medical, and your husbandry is fine, that pretty much just leaves environmental.

(Or a girl. I suppose he could really, really want a female--he looks like my horny males when they wrestle. Except they usually wrestle with ANOTHER SNAKE, not by themselves.)

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funny you say that....after he last spasmed he excreted some gooey yellow stuff. btw i don't know if he is male or female- i could never tell

I watched a bit of the video, and that really IS weird! :O It almost looks like how my Spotted was acting (when the mites showed up), but much more severe... you should check the sticky "vet recommendations" thread for a nearby vet, as I really do think he needs to see one asap. I'm sure they have one in/near Orange County, and an initial diagnosis shouldn't cost too much - certainly not $500.

Here's that thread, and I do see a Dr. Greek listed in OC...
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=671712#671712

Your temps only 80?

72 - 80 degrees is too cold for a ball python.

They need a warm spot of 88 - 90 degrees.

Hi,

How are you measuring those temps?

I ask because I have heard of overheating causing neurological issues - but I have to say that looks more like seizures or muscle spasms as mentioned earlier in the thread.

It really does need a vet.

I would make a list of any possible chemicals it might have had contact with. Has anything been sprayed around the area lately for example?


dr del

Seizures came to my mind as well. And over heat. It looks like he doesn't want to touch the floor of the cage. Is your temp gauge digital or just the round dial. Where is it taking the temps from? Like top of the cage, middle, or floor of the cage?
He seems really stressed by this. The husbandry that he's been living with its a little off. But from what I read in your answers it's nothing that can't be quickly fixed, as well as it's nothing that would do that all
Of the sudden excluding an overheat.

temps are taken from the top of the cage and as I said I know they are not and have never been a problem before. He has lived with that analog gauge reader for 11-12 years no problem. The bottom of the cage is perfect (temp wise). As I said he doesn't act like that unless I try to touch him.

Just an idea. I noticed that the sides of your tank are not blacked out at all. Is it possible he is catching a reflection of himself and trying to fight with it? Someone had noted that it looks similar to when their males are wrestling. Just an idea.
edit: i did notice the sides are blacked but the rear is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surfingguitar

Thanks for your responses. Answers to your questions are the following:
1. about a week and a half (i thought it had stopped)
2. i have had him since his birth (he has always been in great health and physically looks healthy right now)
3. Temp with lamp is about 80, temp at night is about 72
4. Temps controlled by timer switch (he has lived completely fine on this system throughout his life)
5. Temps are measured with gauge.
6. He only does that flipping out motion when I go to touch him or try to pick him up. When left alone he calms down but still moves actively around the cage. Seems like he cant just go hide and relax.
7. Have not been weighing him regularly, from how he looks/feels it doesn't seem like that.
8. He normally eats one medium rat a month.
9. I have not had any contact with any other animals. It doesn't look like he has mites ( i have checked all of the areas for that and see nothing)

- I assume that I can take him to a vet, but I do not know where to go or do i have the money to shell out. I love him but cannot accumulate $500+ in vet bills. :/ I live in Orange County

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help.

---

Here's a list of vets in CA (you have to sift through the list a bit and find something close to you) that see reptiles:

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...t-listing.aspx

Also, I would probably give All Creatures Care Cottage a call and see if they can see him. They're my standard vet but I haven't needed to take my snakes to the vet (knock wood) but I remember talking to them about if they see snakes and if I recall correctly, they do. I use these guys for everything else that I have had (bunnies, rats, dogs, cats, etc) and it wouldn't hurt to call and ask if you're close enough to them. They're pretty awesome and come highly recommended by me. :)

back of the tank is not blacked out, but again it has never been a problem until recently. I am taking him to Dr. Greek tomorrow ( thanks Lolo). Its so sad - he is such a docile/friendly snake, and now he won't even let me pick him up.:(

One other thing, which isn't likely related to this problem, is your feeding schedule. You should be feeding him every 7-10 days, not monthly. BPs aren't like the larger constrictors that take large meals and go for weeks and months in between. I know it has "worked" for you so far, but he also may not have had any other choice. Just my two cents.

Oh, and the gooey stuff was likely urate. Snakes "poop" (even though it's more like the equivalent of our urine) when then are trying to escape something that frightens them very much.

My problem with the analog reader it they are usually quite off. Also except in that video the snake isn't on the top of the cage. So you need to find out what they are on the bottom. I understand that you guys have a system. I think there's things to change to make better for him bc when you have stressed, too hot or too cold snake you are making yourself prone to sickness and other issues.Seeing as though your worried about vet costs keeping him with above par temps and husbandry would prevent vet visits. This seems like a recent change, or environmental thing. Maybe he really has got to poop but temps could be the culprit of that and I've had snakes that really had to go and they weren't doing that. Dehydration also causes constipation but again ive never seen a snake do what yours is doing. So in my opinion you need to get the temps to recommend level, on the floor of the cage, see if that changes anything. Let him completely destress, and I'm
Happy to hear your going to rake this guy to the vet. At the same time I highly suggest fixing the little bugs in your system so you can prevent Anymore issue from arising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

My problem with the analog reader it they are usually quite off. Also except in that video the snake isn't on the top of the cage. So you need to find out what they are on the bottom. I understand that you guys have a system. I think there's things to change to make better for him bc when you have stressed, too hot or too cold snake you are making yourself prone to sickness and other issues.Seeing as though your worried about vet costs keeping him with above par temps and husbandry would prevent vet visits. This seems like a recent change, or environmental thing. Maybe he really has got to poop but temps could be the culprit of that and I've had snakes that really had to go and they weren't doing that. Dehydration also causes constipation but again ive never seen a snake do what yours is doing. So in my opinion you need to get the temps to recommend level, on the floor of the cage, see if that changes anything. Let him completely destress, and I'm
Happy to hear your going to rake this guy to the vet. At the same time I highly suggest fixing the little bugs in your system so you can prevent Anymore issue from arising.

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Thanks. I have never really thought of a different system, but when I get home from work today I am going to change everything. Can you recommend a thread or tips to revamp the entire enclosure i.e. - bedding, gauges, heating (does he need the lamp), hiding water etc....

Sure! I'm on tapatalk right now and for some reason I can't link the The two threads that are stickies. But if you go into Bp husbandry section there's at the top two threads one is called "bp caresheet". And the other is "tank set up my way". I believe they are called. Both are written by members and right on time. The stickies in the husbandry section are excellent and you can learn exactly how to set things up. But In a run down. The tank needs two sections a hot side a d cool side. Hot side need to be 90-92 on the glass. And cold side 80. Since bps are terrestrial the ambient temp is pretty usless since they thermoregulate off of belly heat. So the best thing to do is get a uth that is no more than 2/3 the size of the tank or 1/2 and 1/2 works well too and a dimmer or a decently priced thermostat. There's one called Hydrofarm that you can order online and that will run you like 50 right around. A dimmer you get at the hardware store and they make some that you plug lamps right into. You'll have to fiddle with it a bit and check on it bc it's not a tstat. But it could work as a safety temporary system so the uth doesn't burn him. The tstat turns the uth off and on according to what temp you have it set on. Next important piece of equipment is a digital thermometer. An inside/outside one. You can secure the probe on the glass with hotglue so you know the exact temps on the glass. If you do get a thermostat secure them together with the glue on the hot side. Now then you'll know the accurate temp on the floor of the hot side. And generally If the hot side is accurate your cool side will be as well. Either way the hs is the most important part. Humidity is another important part. This helps the shed ,poop etc. Your comment in your intial post about him retaining his eye caps shows that the humidity was a little off and that's something we should correct. You can put a towel folded up on the screen to help retain humidity. Or others have used plexiglass. Spray heavily 2x daily so that it's nice and moist but dries out over time, you may have to do this
More or less but this is what used to work for me when I had tanks but your area weather plays a big part In that. If it's sopping wet all the time do it less if its bone dry and dries out quickly go more or find a different way of retaining humidity. Geneslly if you get a gauge it should never drop below 60%. Digital again is the best.
Now feeding,
I choose to feed smaller but more frequent feedings. This helps prevent fasting as well as big meals can be hard to digest if temps are incorrect. That's probably why the once a month had been working. But it can lead to problems like sepsis if he's holding on to digested food for too long. Anyways I generally feed weaned or 6-10 week old rats. To my balls. I have balls of various sizes from big big girls to hatchlings to small males and yearlings. So it depends on their size for the weekly feeding. For a male of his size I think like a small rat would be a good meal for him. One that's been weaned for a few weeks but not even close to adult yet. I'd put a rat like that at 7-8 weeks old. If he'll take that weekly or even bi weekly your saving yourself a hell of alot of issues and worry. Sometimes males can go on a fast for up to 10 months when they are fed big infrequent meals. If you switch that up you have less of an issue. The last suggestion I have is to get a grams scale. They are pretty cheap. Mine is a kitchen scale I got at rite aid for 10$. And a notebook. Weigh him monthly, and write down every feeding, shed, and defecation. This way if he stops eating you can weigh him a bit more frequently and see if he's losing weight or if its just a normal fast. You can see if or when a problem started occurring, and if you ever have to bring him to the vet you bring it with you and actually have a compete history. So this is super long and hopefully your eyes haven't sucked back Into your head from reading ro much.

What type of substrate do you keep him on:?

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Originally Posted by surfingguitar

Thanks. I have never really thought of a different system, but when I get home from work today I am going to change everything. Can you recommend a thread or tips to revamp the entire enclosure i.e. - bedding, gauges, heating (does he need the lamp), hiding water etc....

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Also I don't know if you use a UTH (I kinda scanned through the thread) but I read my temps with a temp gun, it's 100% worth the cost of $25-35 for a decent one. I have the PE-2 from tempguns.com. Unfortunately analogs are not accurate at all, and you can be more confident with your husbandry if you know the temps in his cage. I wish you the best of luck, poor little guy :(

thank you for your tips :). I only want the best for him and I hope that the vet can diagnose and or fix that problem. It's just crazy - i have owned him since he was a baby back in 99 with no problems whatsoever. Now suddenly things have changed. I hope I can provide him another 20+ healthy years.

Also what bedding do you suggest? He always knocks the carefresh into the water bowl and makes a mess as of now. I would like to just use house carpet....cutting a new piece with each cleaning....would this be ok?

Ok watched about 5 secs of the video. Couldn't watch it anymore. Do a couple of things for me.

Take a q tip side ways and open his mouth. It might take someone else holding him to help you with this.

1. Do you see any substrate stuck in his mouth
2. Do you see any bubbles - this could mean a respitory infection

Take his lip and pull it back on the side....do you see any black spots? Look at his eyes from the side...is there still retained eyecaps. You can tell usually as it is indented.

Take a look at him carefully up and down to see if there is any substrate stuck in his scales. This is going to be like going over him with a fine tooth comb and he is NOT going to like it....but it needs to be done. You can also use a magnafying glass to look more closely.

After you do this let me know what you find.....



I doubt this is an issue with his temps as they have been like this for so long. But then again I am not a vet. I would certainly invest in a under the tank heater and a thermostat and a temp gun after all this though. Having him for as long as you have.....it is just a great investment and better for your baby.

By the way....this cant be IBD unless you have had him out around other snakes or you have been around other snakes and have not washed your hands. IBD is carried by Boa's. Typically if IBD is contracted by a BP....the fatality rate is quite quick....usually within 90 days at the most. Hence why we always push for a 90 quarrantine.


Also no carpet it breeds icky. lol

I highly recommend papertowels or newspapers. Super easy to clean and really safe for them.

Get a thermostat at the bare minimum. I know dimmers are still recommended, but in my opinion a dimmer is inadequate. The hydrofarm as previously suggested would work in a pinch, but a herpstat or helix would be much better. Remember (as someone else stated) investment up front on proper husbandry, will prevent medical expenses in the long run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPelizabeth

Ok watched about 5 secs of the video. Couldn't watch it anymore. Do a couple of things for me.

Take a q tip side ways and open his mouth. It might take someone else holding him to help you with this.

1. Do you see any substrate stuck in his mouth
2. Do you see any bubbles - this could mean a respitory infection

Take his lip and pull it back on the side....do you see any black spots? Look at his eyes from the side...is there still retained eyecaps. You can tell usually as it is indented.

Take a look at him carefully up and down to see if there is any substrate stuck in his scales. This is going to be like going over him with a fine tooth comb and he is NOT going to like it....but it needs to be done. You can also use a magnafying glass to look more closely.

After you do this let me know what you find.....



I doubt this is an issue with his temps as they have been like this for so long. But then again I am not a vet. I would certainly invest in a under the tank heater and a thermostat and a temp gun after all this though. Having him for as long as you have.....it is just a great investment and better for your baby.

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I'll try to do that today when I get home, though I think if i try to hold him down he will hurt himself with these spasms. From what I have seen, it doesn't look like he has any substrate stuck to him, he does not have eye-caps, but his eyes look like they each have a little X through them (is that normal)? I will check his mouth later. Thanks!

The x is the indentation from the retained eye caps. Have someone help you restrain him not too hard but just so he's not flailing. To do BpElizabeths suggestions. I use Aspen as a sub. But pt and np are great too. Easy to clean. Carpet as said breeds yuk and will be much more expensive to replace it every other day or else it will become water logged and bacteria ridden.

Yeah, don't do carpet. He'll wind up with scale rot for sure. Try newspaper or paper towels if you want a complete change of substrate for a while.

What is carefresh? Is that like kitty litter or something?

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Originally Posted by loonunit

What is carefresh? Is that like kitty litter or something?

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http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CFAQ8gIwAg#

(it was recommended when i bought him in 99 and has been working great since)

I scanned through the video it was very disturbing!! Have you checked all your wiring to me at around 3 mins into the video it almost looked like electrical shock is there any way there could be a mild current going through his cage?? I would get him into a tub that is small so he cant hurt himself :( poor baby please keep us updated (oh and im no expert by far just trying to help)

What kind of Carefresh are you using? Is it anything with pine or cedar in it?
The "basic" kind of Carefresh says it uses "select soft woods"--but I can't figure out if that includes pine or cedar or not.
Ditch it regardless if he is dumping it into his bowl. I'd recommend newspaper or paper towels--the "shop" towels you can find at like Home Depot or probably some car shop like Meineke's, are terrific in terms of water absorbency (they're a kind of thick paper towel, typically blue in color).
I use these for my snakes, and I can spray them and spray them to keep humidity and they never soak through.

Interesting read:
Anything sound familiar to you, OP?
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=64487

If possible take this video with you to the vet.

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Originally Posted by shelliebear

Interesting read:
Anything sound familiar to you, OP?
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=64487

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All of that sounds very similar, though I don't think he is loosing consciousness. I have noticed that he can't relax either. I have my visit with the vet scheduled for tomorrow. I just hope that it is diagnosable and treatable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surfingguitar

All of that sounds very similar, though I don't think he is loosing consciousness. I have noticed that he can't relax either. I have my visit with the vet scheduled for tomorrow. I just hope that it is diagnosable and treatable.

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Please let us know how it turns out. Best wishes to you and your luv.

poor thing :(. i hope its something fixable, he's a beautiful snake. best wishes.

If you are using house carpet, could it have developed mold? Mold can be toxic and cause unpredictable results. Or maybe the chemicals in the carpet?

Yeah, good luck.

If you're in Orange County, you're pretty close to me.
Everyone I know highly recommends "The Greek!" (Dr. Greek)

I am sorry as i am not experienced enougth to offer advise, but i do wish you and your snake well. I hope a trip to the vets will help, the video was not at all nice to see, good luck:)

That thread on seisures was also very helpful, i have saved it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surfingguitar

All of that sounds very similar, though I don't think he is loosing consciousness. I have noticed that he can't relax either. I have my visit with the vet scheduled for tomorrow. I just hope that it is diagnosable and treatable.

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Ahh, I hope so too :( Hopefully the vet can do some tests for him and they will yield some helpful results.
Best of luck to you and please keep us updated. We're rooting for you and him to pull through this. :gj:

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Originally Posted by shelliebear

What kind of Carefresh are you using? Is it anything with pine or cedar in it?
The "basic" kind of Carefresh says it uses "select soft woods"--but I can't figure out if that includes pine or cedar or not.

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I've been using Carefresh for years, with various rodents and my burrowing snakes (hognose, a few corns, etc) - I'm allergic to aspen, so it's my only option for the critters who don't like newspaper/towels. It's never bothered the snakes, and considering I'm also allergic to cedar & pine, it's unlikely Carefresh contains either. What is it, though? I honestly have no idea, LOL.

P.S. Good luck (OP) at the vet, and please let us know what happens!